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  • james2044
    Anyone know What was the source of the estimates of the ANV s numbers? Where did the idea that the creek could not be forded come from?
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 27, 2002
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      Anyone know

      What was the source of the estimates of the ANV's numbers?

      Where did the idea that the creek could not be forded come from?
    • Tom Clemens
      ... Gen. Wool, Dept. commander told McClellan 75,000. Gov. Curtin of PA said an informed source in Hagerstown told him 200,000. Civilians, and avalry recon
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 27, 2002
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        > What was the source of the estimates of the ANV's numbers?

        Gen. Wool, Dept. commander told McClellan 75,000. Gov. Curtin of PA said an
        informed source in Hagerstown told him 200,000. Civilians, and avalry recon
        added estimates within this range so that McClellan decided 120,000 was
        reasonable based on these various reports. Obviously over-inflated, but this
        is what he "knew".

        >
        > Where did the idea that the creek could not be forded come from?

        Can't put my hands on the report or source right now, but I believe it was
        Capt. James C. Duane who commanded the regular engineer detachment with the
        AOP. He wrote "Manual for Engineer Troops" and his opinion was respected.
        Of course he was correct also.

        Tom Clemens
      • Tommy Schmitz
        Didn t Pinkerton have a role in providing intelligence reports to McClellan (AOP, Wool, Stanton and Lincoln), too? ...
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 28, 2002
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          Didn't Pinkerton have a role in providing "intelligence" reports to
          McClellan (AOP, Wool, Stanton and Lincoln), too?


          >From: Tom Clemens <clemens@...>
          >Reply-To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          >To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Questions
          >Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 21:25:57 -0500
          >
          > > What was the source of the estimates of the ANV's numbers?
          >
          >Gen. Wool, Dept. commander told McClellan 75,000. Gov. Curtin of PA said
          >an
          >informed source in Hagerstown told him 200,000. Civilians, and avalry
          >recon
          >added estimates within this range so that McClellan decided 120,000 was
          >reasonable based on these various reports. Obviously over-inflated, but
          >this
          >is what he "knew".
          >
          > >
          > > Where did the idea that the creek could not be forded come from?
          >
          >Can't put my hands on the report or source right now, but I believe it was
          >Capt. James C. Duane who commanded the regular engineer detachment with the
          >AOP. He wrote "Manual for Engineer Troops" and his opinion was respected.
          >Of course he was correct also.
          >
          >Tom Clemens
          ><< clemens.vcf >>




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        • Tom Clemens
          In Virginia, yes, but in the Maryland Campaign Pinkerton had no operatives in Western MD and so provided no intelligence at all during the campaign.
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 28, 2002
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            In Virginia, yes, but in the Maryland Campaign Pinkerton had no "operatives" in
            Western MD and so provided no intelligence at all during the campaign.
            Civilians and cavalry almost exclusively. Hence the "fog of war" dominated
            decision making


            Tommy Schmitz wrote:

            > Didn't Pinkerton have a role in providing "intelligence" reports to
            > McClellan (AOP, Wool, Stanton and Lincoln), too?
            >
            > >From: Tom Clemens <clemens@...>
            > >Reply-To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            > >To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            > >Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Questions
            > >Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 21:25:57 -0500
            > >
            > > > What was the source of the estimates of the ANV's numbers?
            > >
            > >Gen. Wool, Dept. commander told McClellan 75,000. Gov. Curtin of PA said
            > >an
            > >informed source in Hagerstown told him 200,000. Civilians, and avalry
            > >recon
            > >added estimates within this range so that McClellan decided 120,000 was
            > >reasonable based on these various reports. Obviously over-inflated, but
            > >this
            > >is what he "knew".
            > >
            > > >
            > > > Where did the idea that the creek could not be forded come from?
            > >
            > >Can't put my hands on the report or source right now, but I believe it was
            > >Capt. James C. Duane who commanded the regular engineer detachment with the
            > >AOP. He wrote "Manual for Engineer Troops" and his opinion was respected.
            > >Of course he was correct also.
            > >
            > >Tom Clemens
            > ><< clemens.vcf >>
            >
            > _________________________________________________________________
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          • james2044
            Tom, My understanding is the the creek could be forded in many places and was forded to flank Burnsides Bridge. It seems several books state that they could
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 28, 2002
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              Tom,
              My understanding is the the creek could be forded in many places and
              was forded to flank "Burnsides" Bridge.

              It seems several books state that they could but didn't try to. This
              is one of the things they damm Mac for.
            • Andy Mills
              I was always under the impression Burnside himself is credited with the blunder at the Rohrback bridge, not McClellan? Personally, I think McClellan deserves
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 29, 2002
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                I was always under the impression Burnside himself is credited
                with the blunder at the Rohrback bridge, not McClellan?
                Personally, I think McClellan deserves the blame for not
                exploiting the break in the Confederate center along the Sunken
                Road. What was his logic for not exploiting this tremendous
                opportunity, other than the obvious: He thought Lee had 50,000
                reserve troops?

                Andy

                ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------

                James,
                This is a large topic, and I only have a few minutes, so I will be
                more succinct than usual.

                No, the creek was not crossable at many places, at least not in a
                military sense, and certainly not if opposed by the enemy. The
                reports of the engineers, mentioned by Hooker, among others, make
                it clear there were a few usable fords. The engineers improved
                one near the Pry house to make it usable. Read the first few
                pages of the Manual for Engineer Troops and you'll see why that is
                so. A big consideration is that first a ofrce must recon the
                creek. Hard to do when the enemy occupies the ground, so how do
                you go rushing full tilt into the creek when you don't know how
                the steep the banks, how deep the water, swift the current,
                condition of the bottom, sand, mud, rocky, etc. Of course we know
                that now, but how would the Union find that out?

                It is worth mentioning that the Confederate must have thought the
                same thing since they only put sizable forces opposite the bridges
                and skirmish lines everywhere else. If the creek were fordable
                anywhere, why would Lee choose it for a defense line? There is
                much more, but this is a start.

                As for damning McClellan, most people who do that either repeat
                old stories or don't look very deep when they research. The
                reality is much more complex. BTW, why damn McClellan, and not
                the engineers who advised him? See what I mean?
              • Tom Clemens
                James, This is a large topic, and I only have a few minutes, so I will be more succinct than usual. No, the creek was not crossable at many places, at least
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 29, 2002
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                  James,
                  This is a large topic, and I only have a few minutes, so I will be more
                  succinct than usual.

                  No, the creek was not crossable at many places, at least not in a military
                  sense, and certainly not if opposed by the enemy. The reports of the
                  engineers, mentioned by Hooker, among others, make it clear there were a few
                  usable fords. The engineers improved one near the Pry house to make it
                  usable. Read the first few pages of the Manual for Engineer Troops and
                  you'll see why that is so. A big consideration is that first a ofrce must
                  recon the creek. Hard to do when the enemy occupies the ground, so how do
                  you go rushing full tilt into the creek when you don't know how the steep the
                  banks, how deep the water, swift the current, condition of the bottom, sand,
                  mud, rocky, etc. Of course we know that now, but how would the Union find
                  that out?

                  It is worth mentioning that the Confederate must have thought the same thing
                  since they only put sizable forces opposite the bridges and skirmish lines
                  everywhere else. If the creek were fordable anywhere, why would Lee choose
                  it for a defense line? There is much more, but this is a start.

                  As for damning McClellan, most people who do that either repeat old stories
                  or don't look very deep when they research. The reality is much more
                  complex. BTW, why damn McClellan, and not the engineers who advised him?
                  See what I mean?


                  james2044 wrote:

                  > Tom,
                  > My understanding is the the creek could be forded in many places and
                  > was forded to flank "Burnsides" Bridge.
                  >
                  > It seems several books state that they could but didn't try to. This
                  > is one of the things they damm Mac for.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • NJ Rebel
                  Andy: Much of the decision by Mac to not pursue the breakthrough at the Sunken Road can be laid at the feet of Sumner. Sumner was somewhat shell shocked by
                  Message 8 of 11 , Mar 29, 2002
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                    Andy:

                    Much of the decision by Mac to not pursue the breakthrough at the
                    Sunken Road can be laid at the feet of Sumner.

                    Sumner was somewhat shell shocked by what had happened to one of
                    his divisions in the West Woods earlier in the morning of
                    September 17th and was Mac's most aggressive battle-field
                    commander. So, when Sumner advised caution since the Confederates
                    might have a reserve force that Mac did not know of, Mac had to
                    listen!

                    We know now that Lee had no such reserve force but Mad did not!
                    Look at the battle this way: If you were Mac and you had had all
                    your attacks blunted every time by Confederate counter-attacks,
                    would you think "My God, how many men does Bobby Lee have if he
                    can successfully beat off attacks by those under my command?"

                    It did not help that Mac thought Lee had more men at Antietam
                    than he did either.

                    Your humble servant,
                    Gerry Mayers
                    Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
                    Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry

                    A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

                    "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
                    on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
                    Edward Lee


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Andy Mills" <kamills@...>
                    To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 11:18 AM
                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Questions


                    > I was always under the impression Burnside himself is credited
                    > with the blunder at the Rohrback bridge, not McClellan?
                    > Personally, I think McClellan deserves the blame for not
                    > exploiting the break in the Confederate center along the Sunken
                    > Road. What was his logic for not exploiting this tremendous
                    > opportunity, other than the obvious: He thought Lee had 50,000
                    > reserve troops?
                    >
                    > Andy
                    >
                    > ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
                    >
                    > James,
                    > This is a large topic, and I only have a few minutes, so I will
                    be
                    > more succinct than usual.
                    >
                    > No, the creek was not crossable at many places, at least not in
                    a
                    > military sense, and certainly not if opposed by the enemy. The
                    > reports of the engineers, mentioned by Hooker, among others,
                    make
                    > it clear there were a few usable fords. The engineers improved
                    > one near the Pry house to make it usable. Read the first few
                    > pages of the Manual for Engineer Troops and you'll see why that
                    is
                    > so. A big consideration is that first a ofrce must recon the
                    > creek. Hard to do when the enemy occupies the ground, so how
                    do
                    > you go rushing full tilt into the creek when you don't know how
                    > the steep the banks, how deep the water, swift the current,
                    > condition of the bottom, sand, mud, rocky, etc. Of course we
                    know
                    > that now, but how would the Union find that out?
                    >
                    > It is worth mentioning that the Confederate must have thought
                    the
                    > same thing since they only put sizable forces opposite the
                    bridges
                    > and skirmish lines everywhere else. If the creek were fordable
                    > anywhere, why would Lee choose it for a defense line? There is
                    > much more, but this is a start.
                    >
                    > As for damning McClellan, most people who do that either repeat
                    > old stories or don't look very deep when they research. The
                    > reality is much more complex. BTW, why damn McClellan, and not
                    > the engineers who advised him? See what I mean?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    >
                  • Andy & Kim Mills
                    Gerry I understand what you are saying: but the sunken road happened long before Burnside was blunted by Hill and Mac had plenty of reserves as well. I think
                    Message 9 of 11 , Mar 29, 2002
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                      Gerry

                      I understand what you are saying: but the sunken road happened long before
                      Burnside was blunted by Hill and Mac had plenty of reserves as well. I
                      think it would have been different if he had attacked with everything he
                      had, but he didn't.

                      Andy

                      -----Original Message-----

                      Andy:

                      Much of the decision by Mac to not pursue the breakthrough at the
                      Sunken Road can be laid at the feet of Sumner.

                      Sumner was somewhat shell shocked by what had happened to one of
                      his divisions in the West Woods earlier in the morning of
                      September 17th and was Mac's most aggressive battle-field
                      commander. So, when Sumner advised caution since the Confederates
                      might have a reserve force that Mac did not know of, Mac had to
                      listen!

                      We know now that Lee had no such reserve force but Mad did not!
                      Look at the battle this way: If you were Mac and you had had all
                      your attacks blunted every time by Confederate counter-attacks,
                      would you think "My God, how many men does Bobby Lee have if he
                      can successfully beat off attacks by those under my command?"

                      It did not help that Mac thought Lee had more men at Antietam
                      than he did either.

                      Your humble servant,
                      Gerry Mayers
                      Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
                      Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry
                    • NJ Rebel
                      Andy: Most people would agree. However, Burnside s initial orders were to only make a demonstration against the Rohrback or Lower Bridge rather than a full
                      Message 10 of 11 , Mar 30, 2002
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                        Andy:

                        Most people would agree. However, Burnside's initial orders were
                        to only make a "demonstration" against the Rohrback or Lower
                        Bridge rather than a full scale attack.

                        When the orders were changed, notice came via courier rather than
                        Mac himself riding down to Burnside to explain the change in
                        plans.

                        Also, Burn was somewhat miffed that the Wing structure of the AoP
                        which had worked so well during the initial phases of the
                        campaign was abolished right before the battle.

                        Your humble servant,
                        Gerry Mayers
                        Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
                        Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry

                        A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

                        "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
                        on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
                        Edward Lee


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Andy & Kim Mills" <kamills@...>
                        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Friday, March 29, 2002 7:04 PM
                        Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: Questions


                        > Gerry
                        >
                        > I understand what you are saying: but the sunken road happened
                        long before
                        > Burnside was blunted by Hill and Mac had plenty of reserves as
                        well. I
                        > think it would have been different if he had attacked with
                        everything he
                        > had, but he didn't.
                        >
                        > Andy
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        >
                        > Andy:
                        >
                        > Much of the decision by Mac to not pursue the breakthrough at
                        the
                        > Sunken Road can be laid at the feet of Sumner.
                        >
                        > Sumner was somewhat shell shocked by what had happened to one
                        of
                        > his divisions in the West Woods earlier in the morning of
                        > September 17th and was Mac's most aggressive battle-field
                        > commander. So, when Sumner advised caution since the
                        Confederates
                        > might have a reserve force that Mac did not know of, Mac had to
                        > listen!
                        >
                        > We know now that Lee had no such reserve force but Mad did not!
                        > Look at the battle this way: If you were Mac and you had had
                        all
                        > your attacks blunted every time by Confederate counter-attacks,
                        > would you think "My God, how many men does Bobby Lee have if he
                        > can successfully beat off attacks by those under my command?"
                        >
                        > It did not help that Mac thought Lee had more men at Antietam
                        > than he did either.
                        >
                        > Your humble servant,
                        > Gerry Mayers
                        > Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
                        > Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry
                        >
                        >
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                        >
                        >
                        >
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                        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • james2044
                        Wanted to get your thoughts on some items. First, do how do you feel about Sumner s performance on the field? Do you feel his age was a problem? Second, how do
                        Message 11 of 11 , Apr 23, 2002
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                          Wanted to get your thoughts on some items.

                          First, do how do you feel about Sumner's performance on the field?
                          Do you feel his age was a problem?

                          Second, how do you feel about the author and the book?

                          Stephen W. Sears

                          Joseph L. Harsh

                          Last, what do you think went wrong with the AOP's battle plan(s) and
                          who was at fault?
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