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Re: 14th Brooklyn-84th NY Infantry v. Rebel Cavalry

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  • eighth_conn_inf
    Tom, Thanks; I read about the Reb cav actions late on the 16th but did not find that any large mounted actions took place that day on the northern part of the
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 1, 2009
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      Tom,

      Thanks; I read about the Reb cav actions late on the 16th but did not find that any large mounted actions took place that day on the northern part of the field or anywhere else. It is clearly possible that the USSS experience was greatly embellished so Waud could come up with something interesting to draw.

      I just ordered a CD of the regimental history (hard copy too expensive); maybe that will have something but I still believe Waud used a lot of artistic license on that sketch and, for me, throws a bad light on the rest of his CW art. Still, I found several very usable ones to include with this one.

      Larry

      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
      >
      > Larry,
      > This is a real stretch but, for what it is worth, here goes. On the evening of the 16th the 2nd USSS was helping lead the 1st Corps into position in Poffenberger Woods area and a letter mentions fighting dismounted Reb cavalry. They are in the same brigade as the 14th Brooklyn. This is so "thin" that I hesitate to even mention it, but maybe like Barbara Fritchie, Waud could take an event and add to it to make it something it never was.
      >
      >
      > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      > Professor of History
      > Hagerstown Community College
      >
    • eighth_conn_inf
      Tom, I just received the CD with the History of the Fighting Fourteenth. There is nothing in the history to show that it fought any mounted cavalry during
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 10, 2009
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        Tom,

        I just received the CD with the "History of the Fighting Fourteenth." There is nothing in the history to show that it fought any mounted cavalry during the Maryland Campaign so Waud's drawing must indeed be a composite at best or a fantasy at worst.

        Larry

        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
        >
        > Thanks Tom,
        >
        > If I find anything, I will post it.
        >
        > Larry
        >
        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@> wrote:
        > >
        > > And Phelps wrote a complete AAR which does not mention it. Nor does he mention it in his letters to his wife, his diary of his scrapbook. Nor does Carman mention it, and that is significant. I doubt it happened, and think Waud made it up. Will let you know if reading other letters provide contrary information.
        > >
        > >
        > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        > > Professor of History
        > > Hagerstown Community College
        > >
        > >
        > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@> 03/30/09 1:11 PM >>>
        > > I didn't see that the CC maps showed this and I haven't found any source showing that this regiment was engaged with cavalry on the 17th and I don't think it happened on the 16th either.
        > >
        > > I thought the regimental history might say something if in fact there was a fight with 300 Rebel troopers at Antietam. After thinking about all the engagements of Union troops against Rebel troopers during the Maryland Campaign, none come to mind where one Union infantry regiment fought with 300 mounted Conf troopers in the woods as the sketch shows. I'm beginning to think that Waud made it up as a composite or an exageration of what he saw.
        > >
        > > Gerry--I did find the 84th NY in Fox where its 100 men (27 casualties)fought under Maj. DeBevoise but no info about the cav skirmish. It was in Phelps brigade.
        > >
        > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > The 14th was part of the Iron Brigade (the ORIGINAL Iron Brigade, that is),
        > > > and would have been on the north end of the field. Is it possible Stuart
        > > > ran into them during the aborted turning movement late on the 17th?
        > >
        >
      • Harry Smeltzer
        Or maybe just a mistake? ... From: eighth_conn_inf To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 11:33 AM Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 14th
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 10, 2009
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          Or maybe just a mistake?

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: eighth_conn_inf
          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 11:33 AM
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 14th Brooklyn-84th NY Infantry v. Rebel Cavalry





          Tom,

          I just received the CD with the "History of the Fighting Fourteenth." There is nothing in the history to show that it fought any mounted cavalry during the Maryland Campaign so Waud's drawing must indeed be a composite at best or a fantasy at worst.

          Larry

          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
          >
          > Thanks Tom,
          >
          > If I find anything, I will post it.
          >
          > Larry
          >
          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@> wrote:
          > >
          > > And Phelps wrote a complete AAR which does not mention it. Nor does he mention it in his letters to his wife, his diary of his scrapbook. Nor does Carman mention it, and that is significant. I doubt it happened, and think Waud made it up. Will let you know if reading other letters provide contrary information.
          > >
          > >
          > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          > > Professor of History
          > > Hagerstown Community College
          > >
          > >
          > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@> 03/30/09 1:11 PM >>>
          > > I didn't see that the CC maps showed this and I haven't found any source showing that this regiment was engaged with cavalry on the 17th and I don't think it happened on the 16th either.
          > >
          > > I thought the regimental history might say something if in fact there was a fight with 300 Rebel troopers at Antietam. After thinking about all the engagements of Union troops against Rebel troopers during the Maryland Campaign, none come to mind where one Union infantry regiment fought with 300 mounted Conf troopers in the woods as the sketch shows. I'm beginning to think that Waud made it up as a composite or an exageration of what he saw.
          > >
          > > Gerry--I did find the 84th NY in Fox where its 100 men (27 casualties)fought under Maj. DeBevoise but no info about the cav skirmish. It was in Phelps brigade.
          > >
          > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > The 14th was part of the Iron Brigade (the ORIGINAL Iron Brigade, that is),
          > > > and would have been on the north end of the field. Is it possible Stuart
          > > > ran into them during the aborted turning movement late on the 17th?
          > >
          >





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • DPowell334@AOL.COM
          The kind of mistake one sees constantly in primary source accounts - mis-identified units. Dave Powell In a message dated 4/10/2009 9:57:30 A.M. Central
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 10, 2009
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            The kind of mistake one sees constantly in primary source accounts -
            mis-identified units.

            Dave Powell


            In a message dated 4/10/2009 9:57:30 A.M. Central Standard Time,
            hjs21@... writes:

            Or maybe just a mistake?

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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Thomas Clemens
            Well we suspected as much. Thanks. Dr. Thomas G. Clemens Professor of History Hagerstown Community College ... Tom, I just received the CD with the History
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 10, 2009
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              Well we suspected as much. Thanks.

              Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
              Professor of History
              Hagerstown Community College




              >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 4/10/2009 10:33 AM >>>




              Tom,

              I just received the CD with the "History of the Fighting Fourteenth." There is nothing in the history to show that it fought any mounted cavalry during the Maryland Campaign so Waud's drawing must indeed be a composite at best or a fantasy at worst.

              Larry

              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thanks Tom,
              >
              > If I find anything, I will post it.
              >
              > Larry
              >
              > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@> wrote:
              > >
              > > And Phelps wrote a complete AAR which does not mention it. Nor does he mention it in his letters to his wife, his diary of his scrapbook. Nor does Carman mention it, and that is significant. I doubt it happened, and think Waud made it up. Will let you know if reading other letters provide contrary information.
              > >
              > >
              > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              > > Professor of History
              > > Hagerstown Community College
              > >
              > >
              > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@> 03/30/09 1:11 PM >>>
              > > I didn't see that the CC maps showed this and I haven't found any source showing that this regiment was engaged with cavalry on the 17th and I don't think it happened on the 16th either.
              > >
              > > I thought the regimental history might say something if in fact there was a fight with 300 Rebel troopers at Antietam. After thinking about all the engagements of Union troops against Rebel troopers during the Maryland Campaign, none come to mind where one Union infantry regiment fought with 300 mounted Conf troopers in the woods as the sketch shows. I'm beginning to think that Waud made it up as a composite or an exageration of what he saw.
              > >
              > > Gerry--I did find the 84th NY in Fox where its 100 men (27 casualties)fought under Maj. DeBevoise but no info about the cav skirmish. It was in Phelps brigade.
              > >
              > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > The 14th was part of the Iron Brigade (the ORIGINAL Iron Brigade, that is),
              > > > and would have been on the north end of the field. Is it possible Stuart
              > > > ran into them during the aborted turning movement late on the 17th?
              > >
              >




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • eighth_conn_inf
              Harry, I could not think of any such incident during the Maryland Campaign between cav and infantry. Maybe First Bull Run--Stuart v. Zouaves? Larry
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 10, 2009
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                Harry,

                I could not think of any such incident during the Maryland Campaign between cav and infantry. Maybe First Bull Run--Stuart v. Zouaves?

                Larry

                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> wrote:
                >
                > Or maybe just a mistake?
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: eighth_conn_inf
                > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 11:33 AM
                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 14th Brooklyn-84th NY Infantry v. Rebel Cavalry
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Tom,
                >
                > I just received the CD with the "History of the Fighting Fourteenth." There is nothing in the history to show that it fought any mounted cavalry during the Maryland Campaign so Waud's drawing must indeed be a composite at best or a fantasy at worst.
                >
                > Larry
                >
                > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Thanks Tom,
                > >
                > > If I find anything, I will post it.
                > >
                > > Larry
                > >
                > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > And Phelps wrote a complete AAR which does not mention it. Nor does he mention it in his letters to his wife, his diary of his scrapbook. Nor does Carman mention it, and that is significant. I doubt it happened, and think Waud made it up. Will let you know if reading other letters provide contrary information.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                > > > Professor of History
                > > > Hagerstown Community College
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@> 03/30/09 1:11 PM >>>
                > > > I didn't see that the CC maps showed this and I haven't found any source showing that this regiment was engaged with cavalry on the 17th and I don't think it happened on the 16th either.
                > > >
                > > > I thought the regimental history might say something if in fact there was a fight with 300 Rebel troopers at Antietam. After thinking about all the engagements of Union troops against Rebel troopers during the Maryland Campaign, none come to mind where one Union infantry regiment fought with 300 mounted Conf troopers in the woods as the sketch shows. I'm beginning to think that Waud made it up as a composite or an exageration of what he saw.
                > > >
                > > > Gerry--I did find the 84th NY in Fox where its 100 men (27 casualties)fought under Maj. DeBevoise but no info about the cav skirmish. It was in Phelps brigade.
                > > >
                > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > The 14th was part of the Iron Brigade (the ORIGINAL Iron Brigade, that is),
                > > > > and would have been on the north end of the field. Is it possible Stuart
                > > > > ran into them during the aborted turning movement late on the 17th?
                > > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Harry Smeltzer
                Didn t the original message say the caption read dismounted cavalry? Maybe it was just infantry. Interesting you bring up BR. Many of the descriptions of
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 10, 2009
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                  Didn't the original message say the caption read dismounted cavalry? Maybe it was just infantry.

                  Interesting you bring up BR. Many of the descriptions of Stuart's charge on the Manassas-Sudley Rd seem to be describing not the 11th NY (who wore blue that day, and whose Zouave uniforms were gray and blue regardless) but the 14th B'Klyn. Blackford's account describes the 14th to a T.

                  Harry
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: eighth_conn_inf
                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 1:51 PM
                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 14th Brooklyn-84th NY Infantry v. Rebel Cavalry





                  Harry,

                  I could not think of any such incident during the Maryland Campaign between cav and infantry. Maybe First Bull Run--Stuart v. Zouaves?

                  Larry

                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Or maybe just a mistake?
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: eighth_conn_inf
                  > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 11:33 AM
                  > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 14th Brooklyn-84th NY Infantry v. Rebel Cavalry
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Tom,
                  >
                  > I just received the CD with the "History of the Fighting Fourteenth." There is nothing in the history to show that it fought any mounted cavalry during the Maryland Campaign so Waud's drawing must indeed be a composite at best or a fantasy at worst.
                  >
                  > Larry
                  >
                  > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Thanks Tom,
                  > >
                  > > If I find anything, I will post it.
                  > >
                  > > Larry
                  > >
                  > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > And Phelps wrote a complete AAR which does not mention it. Nor does he mention it in his letters to his wife, his diary of his scrapbook. Nor does Carman mention it, and that is significant. I doubt it happened, and think Waud made it up. Will let you know if reading other letters provide contrary information.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  > > > Professor of History
                  > > > Hagerstown Community College
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@> 03/30/09 1:11 PM >>>
                  > > > I didn't see that the CC maps showed this and I haven't found any source showing that this regiment was engaged with cavalry on the 17th and I don't think it happened on the 16th either.
                  > > >
                  > > > I thought the regimental history might say something if in fact there was a fight with 300 Rebel troopers at Antietam. After thinking about all the engagements of Union troops against Rebel troopers during the Maryland Campaign, none come to mind where one Union infantry regiment fought with 300 mounted Conf troopers in the woods as the sketch shows. I'm beginning to think that Waud made it up as a composite or an exageration of what he saw.
                  > > >
                  > > > Gerry--I did find the 84th NY in Fox where its 100 men (27 casualties)fought under Maj. DeBevoise but no info about the cav skirmish. It was in Phelps brigade.
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > The 14th was part of the Iron Brigade (the ORIGINAL Iron Brigade, that is),
                  > > > > and would have been on the north end of the field. Is it possible Stuart
                  > > > > ran into them during the aborted turning movement late on the 17th?
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • eighth_conn_inf
                  The caption is this: Skirmish between the 14th Brooklyn and Confederate Cavalry at Antietam, September 17, 1862. Inscribed: Skirmish between the Brooklyn
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 10, 2009
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                    The caption is this: "Skirmish between the 14th Brooklyn and Confederate Cavalry at Antietam, September 17, 1862."

                    Inscribed: "Skirmish between the Brooklyn 14th and 300 Rebel Cavalry."

                    The sketch shows the Rebs mounted and the Feds firing from among trees. Maybe this link to the LOC picture works:

                    http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/f?dwgd:1100:./temp/~pp_CK0U:

                    Waud was at 1st BR according to the book I have about him: "'Our Special Artist:' Alfred R. Waud's Civil War" by Frederic E. Ray.

                    I found nothing in the regimental history about being attacked by cavlary at 1st BR (or 2nd BR) but they were attacked by 500 Rebel cav under Fitz Lee on 18 Nov 1861 while the regiment was on picket duty near Falls Church losing 2 killed, 3 wounded and 10 prisoners.

                    Larry

                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Didn't the original message say the caption read dismounted cavalry? Maybe it was just infantry.
                    >
                    > Interesting you bring up BR. Many of the descriptions of Stuart's charge on the Manassas-Sudley Rd seem to be describing not the 11th NY (who wore blue that day, and whose Zouave uniforms were gray and blue regardless) but the 14th B'Klyn. Blackford's account describes the 14th to a T.
                    >
                    > Harry
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: eighth_conn_inf
                    > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 1:51 PM
                    > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 14th Brooklyn-84th NY Infantry v. Rebel Cavalry
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Harry,
                    >
                    > I could not think of any such incident during the Maryland Campaign between cav and infantry. Maybe First Bull Run--Stuart v. Zouaves?
                    >
                    > Larry
                    >
                    > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Or maybe just a mistake?
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: eighth_conn_inf
                    > > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 11:33 AM
                    > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 14th Brooklyn-84th NY Infantry v. Rebel Cavalry
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Tom,
                    > >
                    > > I just received the CD with the "History of the Fighting Fourteenth." There is nothing in the history to show that it fought any mounted cavalry during the Maryland Campaign so Waud's drawing must indeed be a composite at best or a fantasy at worst.
                    > >
                    > > Larry
                    > >
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