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14th Brooklyn-84th NY Infantry v. Rebel Cavalry

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  • eighth_conn_inf
    Alfred Waud did a sketch which purportedly shows a skirmish between the 14th Brooklyn and 300 Rebel Cavalry on September 17, 1862. I find nothing in Harsh,
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 30, 2009
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      Alfred Waud did a sketch which purportedly shows a skirmish between the 14th Brooklyn and "300 Rebel Cavalry" on September 17, 1862.

      I find nothing in Harsh, Carman, Priest, etc., about this. I don't have the regimental history, "History of the Fighting Fourteenth" published in 1911 or its Stan Clark reprint in 1996 to confirm if this skirmish occurred and if so, the details. Maybe Waud created this himself using artistic license?

      Does anyone have this regimental history or know about this skirmish?

      Thank you,
      Larry
    • G E Mayers
      Would Fox s book on the top fighting Union regiments be of help? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 30, 2009
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        Would Fox's book on the top fighting Union regiments be of help?

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 9:47 AM
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] 14th Brooklyn-84th NY Infantry v. Rebel
        Cavalry


        Alfred Waud did a sketch which purportedly shows a skirmish
        between the 14th Brooklyn and "300 Rebel Cavalry" on September
        17, 1862.

        I find nothing in Harsh, Carman, Priest, etc., about this. I
        don't have the regimental history, "History of the Fighting
        Fourteenth" published in 1911 or its Stan Clark reprint in 1996
        to confirm if this skirmish occurred and if so, the details.
        Maybe Waud created this himself using artistic license?

        Does anyone have this regimental history or know about this
        skirmish?

        Thank you,
        Larry
      • eighth_conn_inf
        I don t see the regiment listed there. Larry
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 30, 2009
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          I don't see the regiment listed there.

          Larry

          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
          >
          > Would Fox's book on the top fighting Union regiments be of help?
          >
          > Yr. Obt. Svt.
          > G E "Gerry" Mayers
          >
          > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
          > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 9:47 AM
          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] 14th Brooklyn-84th NY Infantry v. Rebel
          > Cavalry
          >
          >
          > Alfred Waud did a sketch which purportedly shows a skirmish
          > between the 14th Brooklyn and "300 Rebel Cavalry" on September
          > 17, 1862.
          >
          > I find nothing in Harsh, Carman, Priest, etc., about this. I
          > don't have the regimental history, "History of the Fighting
          > Fourteenth" published in 1911 or its Stan Clark reprint in 1996
          > to confirm if this skirmish occurred and if so, the details.
          > Maybe Waud created this himself using artistic license?
          >
          > Does anyone have this regimental history or know about this
          > skirmish?
          >
          > Thank you,
          > Larry
          >
        • Harry Smeltzer
          The 14th was part of the Iron Brigade (the ORIGINAL Iron Brigade, that is), and would have been on the north end of the field. Is it possible Stuart ran into
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 30, 2009
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            The 14th was part of the Iron Brigade (the ORIGINAL Iron Brigade, that is),
            and would have been on the north end of the field. Is it possible Stuart
            ran into them during the aborted turning movement late on the 17th?



            -----Original Message-----
            From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
            Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 11:19 AM
            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 14th Brooklyn-84th NY Infantry v. Rebel Cavalry



            I don't see the regiment listed there.

            Larry

            --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
            >
            > Would Fox's book on the top fighting Union regiments be of help?
            >
            > Yr. Obt. Svt.
            > G E "Gerry" Mayers
            >
            > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
            > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 9:47 AM
            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] 14th Brooklyn-84th NY Infantry v. Rebel
            > Cavalry
            >
            >
            > Alfred Waud did a sketch which purportedly shows a skirmish
            > between the 14th Brooklyn and "300 Rebel Cavalry" on September
            > 17, 1862.
            >
            > I find nothing in Harsh, Carman, Priest, etc., about this. I
            > don't have the regimental history, "History of the Fighting
            > Fourteenth" published in 1911 or its Stan Clark reprint in 1996
            > to confirm if this skirmish occurred and if so, the details.
            > Maybe Waud created this himself using artistic license?
            >
            > Does anyone have this regimental history or know about this
            > skirmish?
            >
            > Thank you,
            > Larry
            >





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • eighth_conn_inf
            I didn t see that the CC maps showed this and I haven t found any source showing that this regiment was engaged with cavalry on the 17th and I don t think it
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 30, 2009
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              I didn't see that the CC maps showed this and I haven't found any source showing that this regiment was engaged with cavalry on the 17th and I don't think it happened on the 16th either.

              I thought the regimental history might say something if in fact there was a fight with 300 Rebel troopers at Antietam. After thinking about all the engagements of Union troops against Rebel troopers during the Maryland Campaign, none come to mind where one Union infantry regiment fought with 300 mounted Conf troopers in the woods as the sketch shows. I'm beginning to think that Waud made it up as a composite or an exageration of what he saw.

              Gerry--I did find the 84th NY in Fox where its 100 men (27 casualties)fought under Maj. DeBevoise but no info about the cav skirmish. It was in Phelps brigade.

              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> wrote:
              >
              > The 14th was part of the Iron Brigade (the ORIGINAL Iron Brigade, that is),
              > and would have been on the north end of the field. Is it possible Stuart
              > ran into them during the aborted turning movement late on the 17th?
              >
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
              > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
              > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 11:19 AM
              > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 14th Brooklyn-84th NY Infantry v. Rebel Cavalry
              >
              >
              >
              > I don't see the regiment listed there.
              >
              > Larry
              >
              > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Would Fox's book on the top fighting Union regiments be of help?
              > >
              > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
              > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
              > >
              > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
              > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              > yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 9:47 AM
              > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] 14th Brooklyn-84th NY Infantry v. Rebel
              > > Cavalry
              > >
              > >
              > > Alfred Waud did a sketch which purportedly shows a skirmish
              > > between the 14th Brooklyn and "300 Rebel Cavalry" on September
              > > 17, 1862.
              > >
              > > I find nothing in Harsh, Carman, Priest, etc., about this. I
              > > don't have the regimental history, "History of the Fighting
              > > Fourteenth" published in 1911 or its Stan Clark reprint in 1996
              > > to confirm if this skirmish occurred and if so, the details.
              > > Maybe Waud created this himself using artistic license?
              > >
              > > Does anyone have this regimental history or know about this
              > > skirmish?
              > >
              > > Thank you,
              > > Larry
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Thomas Clemens
              And Phelps wrote a complete AAR which does not mention it. Nor does he mention it in his letters to his wife, his diary of his scrapbook. Nor does Carman
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 30, 2009
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                And Phelps wrote a complete AAR which does not mention it. Nor does he mention it in his letters to his wife, his diary of his scrapbook. Nor does Carman mention it, and that is significant. I doubt it happened, and think Waud made it up. Will let you know if reading other letters provide contrary information.


                Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                Professor of History
                Hagerstown Community College


                >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 03/30/09 1:11 PM >>>
                I didn't see that the CC maps showed this and I haven't found any source showing that this regiment was engaged with cavalry on the 17th and I don't think it happened on the 16th either.

                I thought the regimental history might say something if in fact there was a fight with 300 Rebel troopers at Antietam. After thinking about all the engagements of Union troops against Rebel troopers during the Maryland Campaign, none come to mind where one Union infantry regiment fought with 300 mounted Conf troopers in the woods as the sketch shows. I'm beginning to think that Waud made it up as a composite or an exageration of what he saw.

                Gerry--I did find the 84th NY in Fox where its 100 men (27 casualties)fought under Maj. DeBevoise but no info about the cav skirmish. It was in Phelps brigade.

                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> wrote:
                >
                > The 14th was part of the Iron Brigade (the ORIGINAL Iron Brigade, that is),
                > and would have been on the north end of the field. Is it possible Stuart
                > ran into them during the aborted turning movement late on the 17th?
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 11:19 AM
                > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 14th Brooklyn-84th NY Infantry v. Rebel Cavalry
                >
                >
                >
                > I don't see the regiment listed there.
                >
                > Larry
                >
                > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Would Fox's book on the top fighting Union regiments be of help?
                > >
                > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                > >
                > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
                > > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                > yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 9:47 AM
                > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] 14th Brooklyn-84th NY Infantry v. Rebel
                > > Cavalry
                > >
                > >
                > > Alfred Waud did a sketch which purportedly shows a skirmish
                > > between the 14th Brooklyn and "300 Rebel Cavalry" on September
                > > 17, 1862.
                > >
                > > I find nothing in Harsh, Carman, Priest, etc., about this. I
                > > don't have the regimental history, "History of the Fighting
                > > Fourteenth" published in 1911 or its Stan Clark reprint in 1996
                > > to confirm if this skirmish occurred and if so, the details.
                > > Maybe Waud created this himself using artistic license?
                > >
                > > Does anyone have this regimental history or know about this
                > > skirmish?
                > >
                > > Thank you,
                > > Larry
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • eighth_conn_inf
                Thanks Tom, If I find anything, I will post it. Larry
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 30, 2009
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                  Thanks Tom,

                  If I find anything, I will post it.

                  Larry

                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > And Phelps wrote a complete AAR which does not mention it. Nor does he mention it in his letters to his wife, his diary of his scrapbook. Nor does Carman mention it, and that is significant. I doubt it happened, and think Waud made it up. Will let you know if reading other letters provide contrary information.
                  >
                  >
                  > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  > Professor of History
                  > Hagerstown Community College
                  >
                  >
                  > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 03/30/09 1:11 PM >>>
                  > I didn't see that the CC maps showed this and I haven't found any source showing that this regiment was engaged with cavalry on the 17th and I don't think it happened on the 16th either.
                  >
                  > I thought the regimental history might say something if in fact there was a fight with 300 Rebel troopers at Antietam. After thinking about all the engagements of Union troops against Rebel troopers during the Maryland Campaign, none come to mind where one Union infantry regiment fought with 300 mounted Conf troopers in the woods as the sketch shows. I'm beginning to think that Waud made it up as a composite or an exageration of what he saw.
                  >
                  > Gerry--I did find the 84th NY in Fox where its 100 men (27 casualties)fought under Maj. DeBevoise but no info about the cav skirmish. It was in Phelps brigade.
                  >
                  > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > The 14th was part of the Iron Brigade (the ORIGINAL Iron Brigade, that is),
                  > > and would have been on the north end of the field. Is it possible Stuart
                  > > ran into them during the aborted turning movement late on the 17th?
                  >
                • Thomas Clemens
                  Larry, This is a real stretch but, for what it is worth, here goes. On the evening of the 16th the 2nd USSS was helping lead the 1st Corps into position in
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 1, 2009
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                    Larry,
                    This is a real stretch but, for what it is worth, here goes. On the evening of the 16th the 2nd USSS was helping lead the 1st Corps into position in Poffenberger Woods area and a letter mentions fighting dismounted Reb cavalry. They are in the same brigade as the 14th Brooklyn. This is so "thin" that I hesitate to even mention it, but maybe like Barbara Fritchie, Waud could take an event and add to it to make it something it never was.


                    Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                    Professor of History
                    Hagerstown Community College


                    >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 03/30/09 9:47 AM >>>
                    Alfred Waud did a sketch which purportedly shows a skirmish between the 14th Brooklyn and "300 Rebel Cavalry" on September 17, 1862.

                    I find nothing in Harsh, Carman, Priest, etc., about this. I don't have the regimental history, "History of the Fighting Fourteenth" published in 1911 or its Stan Clark reprint in 1996 to confirm if this skirmish occurred and if so, the details. Maybe Waud created this himself using artistic license?

                    Does anyone have this regimental history or know about this skirmish?

                    Thank you,
                    Larry
                  • eighth_conn_inf
                    Tom, Thanks; I read about the Reb cav actions late on the 16th but did not find that any large mounted actions took place that day on the northern part of the
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 1, 2009
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                      Tom,

                      Thanks; I read about the Reb cav actions late on the 16th but did not find that any large mounted actions took place that day on the northern part of the field or anywhere else. It is clearly possible that the USSS experience was greatly embellished so Waud could come up with something interesting to draw.

                      I just ordered a CD of the regimental history (hard copy too expensive); maybe that will have something but I still believe Waud used a lot of artistic license on that sketch and, for me, throws a bad light on the rest of his CW art. Still, I found several very usable ones to include with this one.

                      Larry

                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Larry,
                      > This is a real stretch but, for what it is worth, here goes. On the evening of the 16th the 2nd USSS was helping lead the 1st Corps into position in Poffenberger Woods area and a letter mentions fighting dismounted Reb cavalry. They are in the same brigade as the 14th Brooklyn. This is so "thin" that I hesitate to even mention it, but maybe like Barbara Fritchie, Waud could take an event and add to it to make it something it never was.
                      >
                      >
                      > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      > Professor of History
                      > Hagerstown Community College
                      >
                    • eighth_conn_inf
                      Tom, I just received the CD with the History of the Fighting Fourteenth. There is nothing in the history to show that it fought any mounted cavalry during
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 10, 2009
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                        Tom,

                        I just received the CD with the "History of the Fighting Fourteenth." There is nothing in the history to show that it fought any mounted cavalry during the Maryland Campaign so Waud's drawing must indeed be a composite at best or a fantasy at worst.

                        Larry

                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Thanks Tom,
                        >
                        > If I find anything, I will post it.
                        >
                        > Larry
                        >
                        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > And Phelps wrote a complete AAR which does not mention it. Nor does he mention it in his letters to his wife, his diary of his scrapbook. Nor does Carman mention it, and that is significant. I doubt it happened, and think Waud made it up. Will let you know if reading other letters provide contrary information.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                        > > Professor of History
                        > > Hagerstown Community College
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@> 03/30/09 1:11 PM >>>
                        > > I didn't see that the CC maps showed this and I haven't found any source showing that this regiment was engaged with cavalry on the 17th and I don't think it happened on the 16th either.
                        > >
                        > > I thought the regimental history might say something if in fact there was a fight with 300 Rebel troopers at Antietam. After thinking about all the engagements of Union troops against Rebel troopers during the Maryland Campaign, none come to mind where one Union infantry regiment fought with 300 mounted Conf troopers in the woods as the sketch shows. I'm beginning to think that Waud made it up as a composite or an exageration of what he saw.
                        > >
                        > > Gerry--I did find the 84th NY in Fox where its 100 men (27 casualties)fought under Maj. DeBevoise but no info about the cav skirmish. It was in Phelps brigade.
                        > >
                        > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > The 14th was part of the Iron Brigade (the ORIGINAL Iron Brigade, that is),
                        > > > and would have been on the north end of the field. Is it possible Stuart
                        > > > ran into them during the aborted turning movement late on the 17th?
                        > >
                        >
                      • Harry Smeltzer
                        Or maybe just a mistake? ... From: eighth_conn_inf To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 11:33 AM Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 14th
                        Message 11 of 16 , Apr 10, 2009
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                          Or maybe just a mistake?

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: eighth_conn_inf
                          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 11:33 AM
                          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 14th Brooklyn-84th NY Infantry v. Rebel Cavalry





                          Tom,

                          I just received the CD with the "History of the Fighting Fourteenth." There is nothing in the history to show that it fought any mounted cavalry during the Maryland Campaign so Waud's drawing must indeed be a composite at best or a fantasy at worst.

                          Larry

                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Thanks Tom,
                          >
                          > If I find anything, I will post it.
                          >
                          > Larry
                          >
                          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > And Phelps wrote a complete AAR which does not mention it. Nor does he mention it in his letters to his wife, his diary of his scrapbook. Nor does Carman mention it, and that is significant. I doubt it happened, and think Waud made it up. Will let you know if reading other letters provide contrary information.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                          > > Professor of History
                          > > Hagerstown Community College
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@> 03/30/09 1:11 PM >>>
                          > > I didn't see that the CC maps showed this and I haven't found any source showing that this regiment was engaged with cavalry on the 17th and I don't think it happened on the 16th either.
                          > >
                          > > I thought the regimental history might say something if in fact there was a fight with 300 Rebel troopers at Antietam. After thinking about all the engagements of Union troops against Rebel troopers during the Maryland Campaign, none come to mind where one Union infantry regiment fought with 300 mounted Conf troopers in the woods as the sketch shows. I'm beginning to think that Waud made it up as a composite or an exageration of what he saw.
                          > >
                          > > Gerry--I did find the 84th NY in Fox where its 100 men (27 casualties)fought under Maj. DeBevoise but no info about the cav skirmish. It was in Phelps brigade.
                          > >
                          > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > The 14th was part of the Iron Brigade (the ORIGINAL Iron Brigade, that is),
                          > > > and would have been on the north end of the field. Is it possible Stuart
                          > > > ran into them during the aborted turning movement late on the 17th?
                          > >
                          >





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • DPowell334@AOL.COM
                          The kind of mistake one sees constantly in primary source accounts - mis-identified units. Dave Powell In a message dated 4/10/2009 9:57:30 A.M. Central
                          Message 12 of 16 , Apr 10, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            The kind of mistake one sees constantly in primary source accounts -
                            mis-identified units.

                            Dave Powell


                            In a message dated 4/10/2009 9:57:30 A.M. Central Standard Time,
                            hjs21@... writes:

                            Or maybe just a mistake?

                            **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a
                            recession.
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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Thomas Clemens
                            Well we suspected as much. Thanks. Dr. Thomas G. Clemens Professor of History Hagerstown Community College ... Tom, I just received the CD with the History
                            Message 13 of 16 , Apr 10, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Well we suspected as much. Thanks.

                              Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                              Professor of History
                              Hagerstown Community College




                              >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 4/10/2009 10:33 AM >>>




                              Tom,

                              I just received the CD with the "History of the Fighting Fourteenth." There is nothing in the history to show that it fought any mounted cavalry during the Maryland Campaign so Waud's drawing must indeed be a composite at best or a fantasy at worst.

                              Larry

                              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Thanks Tom,
                              >
                              > If I find anything, I will post it.
                              >
                              > Larry
                              >
                              > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > And Phelps wrote a complete AAR which does not mention it. Nor does he mention it in his letters to his wife, his diary of his scrapbook. Nor does Carman mention it, and that is significant. I doubt it happened, and think Waud made it up. Will let you know if reading other letters provide contrary information.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                              > > Professor of History
                              > > Hagerstown Community College
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@> 03/30/09 1:11 PM >>>
                              > > I didn't see that the CC maps showed this and I haven't found any source showing that this regiment was engaged with cavalry on the 17th and I don't think it happened on the 16th either.
                              > >
                              > > I thought the regimental history might say something if in fact there was a fight with 300 Rebel troopers at Antietam. After thinking about all the engagements of Union troops against Rebel troopers during the Maryland Campaign, none come to mind where one Union infantry regiment fought with 300 mounted Conf troopers in the woods as the sketch shows. I'm beginning to think that Waud made it up as a composite or an exageration of what he saw.
                              > >
                              > > Gerry--I did find the 84th NY in Fox where its 100 men (27 casualties)fought under Maj. DeBevoise but no info about the cav skirmish. It was in Phelps brigade.
                              > >
                              > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > The 14th was part of the Iron Brigade (the ORIGINAL Iron Brigade, that is),
                              > > > and would have been on the north end of the field. Is it possible Stuart
                              > > > ran into them during the aborted turning movement late on the 17th?
                              > >
                              >




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • eighth_conn_inf
                              Harry, I could not think of any such incident during the Maryland Campaign between cav and infantry. Maybe First Bull Run--Stuart v. Zouaves? Larry
                              Message 14 of 16 , Apr 10, 2009
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                                Harry,

                                I could not think of any such incident during the Maryland Campaign between cav and infantry. Maybe First Bull Run--Stuart v. Zouaves?

                                Larry

                                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Or maybe just a mistake?
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: eighth_conn_inf
                                > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 11:33 AM
                                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 14th Brooklyn-84th NY Infantry v. Rebel Cavalry
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Tom,
                                >
                                > I just received the CD with the "History of the Fighting Fourteenth." There is nothing in the history to show that it fought any mounted cavalry during the Maryland Campaign so Waud's drawing must indeed be a composite at best or a fantasy at worst.
                                >
                                > Larry
                                >
                                > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Thanks Tom,
                                > >
                                > > If I find anything, I will post it.
                                > >
                                > > Larry
                                > >
                                > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > And Phelps wrote a complete AAR which does not mention it. Nor does he mention it in his letters to his wife, his diary of his scrapbook. Nor does Carman mention it, and that is significant. I doubt it happened, and think Waud made it up. Will let you know if reading other letters provide contrary information.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                > > > Professor of History
                                > > > Hagerstown Community College
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@> 03/30/09 1:11 PM >>>
                                > > > I didn't see that the CC maps showed this and I haven't found any source showing that this regiment was engaged with cavalry on the 17th and I don't think it happened on the 16th either.
                                > > >
                                > > > I thought the regimental history might say something if in fact there was a fight with 300 Rebel troopers at Antietam. After thinking about all the engagements of Union troops against Rebel troopers during the Maryland Campaign, none come to mind where one Union infantry regiment fought with 300 mounted Conf troopers in the woods as the sketch shows. I'm beginning to think that Waud made it up as a composite or an exageration of what he saw.
                                > > >
                                > > > Gerry--I did find the 84th NY in Fox where its 100 men (27 casualties)fought under Maj. DeBevoise but no info about the cav skirmish. It was in Phelps brigade.
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > The 14th was part of the Iron Brigade (the ORIGINAL Iron Brigade, that is),
                                > > > > and would have been on the north end of the field. Is it possible Stuart
                                > > > > ran into them during the aborted turning movement late on the 17th?
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • Harry Smeltzer
                                Didn t the original message say the caption read dismounted cavalry? Maybe it was just infantry. Interesting you bring up BR. Many of the descriptions of
                                Message 15 of 16 , Apr 10, 2009
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                                  Didn't the original message say the caption read dismounted cavalry? Maybe it was just infantry.

                                  Interesting you bring up BR. Many of the descriptions of Stuart's charge on the Manassas-Sudley Rd seem to be describing not the 11th NY (who wore blue that day, and whose Zouave uniforms were gray and blue regardless) but the 14th B'Klyn. Blackford's account describes the 14th to a T.

                                  Harry
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: eighth_conn_inf
                                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 1:51 PM
                                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 14th Brooklyn-84th NY Infantry v. Rebel Cavalry





                                  Harry,

                                  I could not think of any such incident during the Maryland Campaign between cav and infantry. Maybe First Bull Run--Stuart v. Zouaves?

                                  Larry

                                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Or maybe just a mistake?
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: eighth_conn_inf
                                  > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 11:33 AM
                                  > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 14th Brooklyn-84th NY Infantry v. Rebel Cavalry
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Tom,
                                  >
                                  > I just received the CD with the "History of the Fighting Fourteenth." There is nothing in the history to show that it fought any mounted cavalry during the Maryland Campaign so Waud's drawing must indeed be a composite at best or a fantasy at worst.
                                  >
                                  > Larry
                                  >
                                  > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Thanks Tom,
                                  > >
                                  > > If I find anything, I will post it.
                                  > >
                                  > > Larry
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > And Phelps wrote a complete AAR which does not mention it. Nor does he mention it in his letters to his wife, his diary of his scrapbook. Nor does Carman mention it, and that is significant. I doubt it happened, and think Waud made it up. Will let you know if reading other letters provide contrary information.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                  > > > Professor of History
                                  > > > Hagerstown Community College
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@> 03/30/09 1:11 PM >>>
                                  > > > I didn't see that the CC maps showed this and I haven't found any source showing that this regiment was engaged with cavalry on the 17th and I don't think it happened on the 16th either.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I thought the regimental history might say something if in fact there was a fight with 300 Rebel troopers at Antietam. After thinking about all the engagements of Union troops against Rebel troopers during the Maryland Campaign, none come to mind where one Union infantry regiment fought with 300 mounted Conf troopers in the woods as the sketch shows. I'm beginning to think that Waud made it up as a composite or an exageration of what he saw.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Gerry--I did find the 84th NY in Fox where its 100 men (27 casualties)fought under Maj. DeBevoise but no info about the cav skirmish. It was in Phelps brigade.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > The 14th was part of the Iron Brigade (the ORIGINAL Iron Brigade, that is),
                                  > > > > and would have been on the north end of the field. Is it possible Stuart
                                  > > > > ran into them during the aborted turning movement late on the 17th?
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • eighth_conn_inf
                                  The caption is this: Skirmish between the 14th Brooklyn and Confederate Cavalry at Antietam, September 17, 1862. Inscribed: Skirmish between the Brooklyn
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Apr 10, 2009
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                                    The caption is this: "Skirmish between the 14th Brooklyn and Confederate Cavalry at Antietam, September 17, 1862."

                                    Inscribed: "Skirmish between the Brooklyn 14th and 300 Rebel Cavalry."

                                    The sketch shows the Rebs mounted and the Feds firing from among trees. Maybe this link to the LOC picture works:

                                    http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/f?dwgd:1100:./temp/~pp_CK0U:

                                    Waud was at 1st BR according to the book I have about him: "'Our Special Artist:' Alfred R. Waud's Civil War" by Frederic E. Ray.

                                    I found nothing in the regimental history about being attacked by cavlary at 1st BR (or 2nd BR) but they were attacked by 500 Rebel cav under Fitz Lee on 18 Nov 1861 while the regiment was on picket duty near Falls Church losing 2 killed, 3 wounded and 10 prisoners.

                                    Larry

                                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Didn't the original message say the caption read dismounted cavalry? Maybe it was just infantry.
                                    >
                                    > Interesting you bring up BR. Many of the descriptions of Stuart's charge on the Manassas-Sudley Rd seem to be describing not the 11th NY (who wore blue that day, and whose Zouave uniforms were gray and blue regardless) but the 14th B'Klyn. Blackford's account describes the 14th to a T.
                                    >
                                    > Harry
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: eighth_conn_inf
                                    > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 1:51 PM
                                    > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 14th Brooklyn-84th NY Infantry v. Rebel Cavalry
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Harry,
                                    >
                                    > I could not think of any such incident during the Maryland Campaign between cav and infantry. Maybe First Bull Run--Stuart v. Zouaves?
                                    >
                                    > Larry
                                    >
                                    > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Or maybe just a mistake?
                                    > >
                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > From: eighth_conn_inf
                                    > > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 11:33 AM
                                    > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 14th Brooklyn-84th NY Infantry v. Rebel Cavalry
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Tom,
                                    > >
                                    > > I just received the CD with the "History of the Fighting Fourteenth." There is nothing in the history to show that it fought any mounted cavalry during the Maryland Campaign so Waud's drawing must indeed be a composite at best or a fantasy at worst.
                                    > >
                                    > > Larry
                                    > >
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