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Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: queston about parallel routes to HagerstownTurnpike north from Sharpsburg

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  • G E Mayers
    Dear Tom, Was the Cox s Farm Road expedition a viable one? Did Harsh ever indicate to you his thoughts on it? Apparently Stuart must have communicated
    Message 1 of 18 , Mar 17 12:11 PM
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      Dear Tom,

      Was the Cox's Farm Road expedition a viable one? Did Harsh ever
      indicate to you his thoughts on it? Apparently Stuart must have
      communicated something of worth to Lee if Lee, Longstreet and
      Jackson were reviewing the larger scale maps of the area when
      word comes to them at the Grove House of Hooker's crossing the
      Antietam.

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 12:04 PM
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: queston about parallel routes to
      HagerstownTurnpike north from Sharpsburg


      >I think what Gerry is talking about is the road now known as
      >Mondell road and then Taylor's Landing Road which led to the
      >aforementioned site on the Potomac. From there a road led along
      >the banks for some distance and roads branching off that led
      >back to the Pike and others to the Boonsboro - Williamsport
      >road. It shows on local maps and the names are not mentioned,
      >thus I am using modern names. It was Harsh's opinion that the
      >"Cox Farm expedition" was an attempt to see if that road was
      >usable to evacuate the army northward toward Hagerstown.
      >
      >
      > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
      > Professor of History
      > Hagerstown Community College
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >>>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 3/17/2009 8:22
      >>>> AM >>>
      >
      > I should have looked at Carman more closely; he says about the
      > Antietam battlefield "The turnpike, country roads, and farm
      > lanes gave ready access to all parts of the field upon which,
      > save along the banks of the Antietam itself, there were no
      > obstacles to the movement of troops and but few to the passage
      > of artillery." Later he mentions "farm lanes" in several
      > places. He often names the lanes for the farms to which they
      > lead likely echoing usage at the time. In another place Carman
      > mentions a "stock lane" which implies only a cattle path rather
      > than a "regular" farm lane.
      >
      > Lanes were important as they usually had some type of fencing
      > on either side (as did pikes and other roads) as they traversed
      > various farmers' fields so provided some cover as well as
      > barriers for troop movements. Looks like determining which
      > lanes couriers/cavalry used will be interesting lacking primary
      > sources.
      >
      > Larry
      >
      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
      > <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
      >>
      >> Gerry,
      >>
      >> Looking at the CC maps closely, the spaces between the various
      >> types of fences around fields frequently have a regular dotted
      >> line shown. The map legend doesn't list this symbol so I
      >> wonder if it indicates a farm path. This makes sense as
      >> farmers must get their teams to fields to plow and wagons to
      >> harvest crops. So if many/most of these are wide enough to let
      >> a wagon pass, they are also passable to couriers, etc.?
      >>
      >> Following the Smoketown Rd from the Dunkard Church towards
      >> Smoketown shows that this dotted line splits as it enters the
      >> East Woods and connects the parts of the road. I don't recall
      >> reading comments about this link--anyone have any cites
      >> referencing this connection or helpful statements about farm
      >> lanes? Any thoughts? Or am I just coming late to this
      >> realization about lanes = regular dotted lines?
      >>
      >>
      >> Larry
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
    • eighth_conn_inf
      Tom, Thanks to Carman, we have an idea where the 17th s expedition was but the scout on the 16th I think we only have Blackford. Do you think Stuart s scout on
      Message 2 of 18 , Mar 17 1:15 PM
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        Tom,

        Thanks to Carman, we have an
        idea where the 17th's expedition was but the scout on the 16th I
        think we only have Blackford. Do you think Stuart's scout on the
        morning/afternoon of the 16th was in the same area that Lee wanted
        Jackson to attack on the 17th? Were there any Union troops in that
        area on the 16th? If not, and if Blackford is correct about running
        into Union troops he had to be closer to the Hagerstown Pike around
        the North Woods later in the afternoon on the 16th when Doubleday
        arrived? Do you think Blackford and Stuart went all the way to the
        Williamsport-Keedysville Road (today's Bakersville and Spielman Rds
        part of Rt 63) on the 16th west of the Hagerstown Pike or even to the
        Boonsboro-Williamsport Road (today's Rt 68)?

        It is about 1 ¾ straight-
        line miles from the Dunkard Church to the Keedysville-Williamsport Rd
        and about 4 ½ to the Boonsboro-Williamsport Rd. There is a road to the west,
        the Downsville Pike Rt 632 which runs from Rt 63 to
        Hagerstown in pretty much a straight line which road I believe
        existed in 1862. I guess Stuart did not get that far either day but he may have had a chance on the 16th?

        Many of the modern-day roads in the area from Sharpsburg to
        Williamsport to Hagerstown seem to have been the same in 1862 so
        Stuart did have some options to the NW but if he could not get
        further north than Mercersville, I guess those options wouldn't
        help.


        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear Tom,
        >
        > Was the Cox's Farm Road expedition a viable one? Did Harsh ever
        > indicate to you his thoughts on it? Apparently Stuart must have
        > communicated something of worth to Lee if Lee, Longstreet and
        > Jackson were reviewing the larger scale maps of the area when
        > word comes to them at the Grove House of Hooker's crossing the
        > Antietam.
        >
        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
        >
        > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
        > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 12:04 PM
        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: queston about parallel routes to
        > HagerstownTurnpike north from Sharpsburg
        >
        >
        > >I think what Gerry is talking about is the road now known as
        > >Mondell road and then Taylor's Landing Road which led to the
        > >aforementioned site on the Potomac. From there a road led along
        > >the banks for some distance and roads branching off that led
        > >back to the Pike and others to the Boonsboro - Williamsport
        > >road. It shows on local maps and the names are not mentioned,
        > >thus I am using modern names. It was Harsh's opinion that the
        > >"Cox Farm expedition" was an attempt to see if that road was
        > >usable to evacuate the army northward toward Hagerstown.
        > >
        > >
        > > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
        > > Professor of History
        > > Hagerstown Community College
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >>>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 3/17/2009 8:22
        > >>>> AM >>>
        > >
        > > I should have looked at Carman more closely; he says about the
        > > Antietam battlefield "The turnpike, country roads, and farm
        > > lanes gave ready access to all parts of the field upon which,
        > > save along the banks of the Antietam itself, there were no
        > > obstacles to the movement of troops and but few to the passage
        > > of artillery." Later he mentions "farm lanes" in several
        > > places. He often names the lanes for the farms to which they
        > > lead likely echoing usage at the time. In another place Carman
        > > mentions a "stock lane" which implies only a cattle path rather
        > > than a "regular" farm lane.
        > >
        > > Lanes were important as they usually had some type of fencing
        > > on either side (as did pikes and other roads) as they traversed
        > > various farmers' fields so provided some cover as well as
        > > barriers for troop movements. Looks like determining which
        > > lanes couriers/cavalry used will be interesting lacking primary
        > > sources.
        > >
        > > Larry
        > >
        > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
        > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
        > >>
        > >> Gerry,
        > >>
        > >> Looking at the CC maps closely, the spaces between the various
        > >> types of fences around fields frequently have a regular dotted
        > >> line shown. The map legend doesn't list this symbol so I
        > >> wonder if it indicates a farm path. This makes sense as
        > >> farmers must get their teams to fields to plow and wagons to
        > >> harvest crops. So if many/most of these are wide enough to let
        > >> a wagon pass, they are also passable to couriers, etc.?
        > >>
        > >> Following the Smoketown Rd from the Dunkard Church towards
        > >> Smoketown shows that this dotted line splits as it enters the
        > >> East Woods and connects the parts of the road. I don't recall
        > >> reading comments about this link--anyone have any cites
        > >> referencing this connection or helpful statements about farm
        > >> lanes? Any thoughts? Or am I just coming late to this
        > >> realization about lanes = regular dotted lines?
        > >>
        > >>
        > >> Larry
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        >
      • Thomas Clemens
        Larry, I am away from home and sources right now, but IIRC one ofthe cavalry regiments camps on the night of the 16th up past the Squirrel Level Church, with a
        Message 3 of 18 , Mar 18 10:27 AM
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          Larry, I am away from home and sources right now, but IIRC one ofthe
          cavalry regiments camps on the night of the 16th up past the Squirrel
          Level Church, with a few hundred yards of the Bakersville road. It
          strikes me as logical that they'd know about a road that close to them,
          but maybe not.
          BTW, I am in HOG HEAVEN at the NYPL looking at the Ezra Carman
          Collection. A lot of stuff not on the microfilm!


          Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          Professor of History
          Hagerstown Community College


          >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 03/17/09 4:15 PM >>>
          Tom,

          Thanks to Carman, we have an
          idea where the 17th's expedition was but the scout on the 16th I
          think we only have Blackford. Do you think Stuart's scout on the
          morning/afternoon of the 16th was in the same area that Lee wanted
          Jackson to attack on the 17th? Were there any Union troops in that
          area on the 16th? If not, and if Blackford is correct about running
          into Union troops he had to be closer to the Hagerstown Pike around
          the North Woods later in the afternoon on the 16th when Doubleday
          arrived? Do you think Blackford and Stuart went all the way to the
          Williamsport-Keedysville Road (today's Bakersville and Spielman Rds
          part of Rt 63) on the 16th west of the Hagerstown Pike or even to the
          Boonsboro-Williamsport Road (today's Rt 68)?

          It is about 1 ¾ straight-
          line miles from the Dunkard Church to the Keedysville-Williamsport Rd
          and about 4 ½ to the Boonsboro-Williamsport Rd. There is a road to the
          west,
          the Downsville Pike Rt 632 which runs from Rt 63 to
          Hagerstown in pretty much a straight line which road I believe
          existed in 1862. I guess Stuart did not get that far either day but he
          may have had a chance on the 16th?

          Many of the modern-day roads in the area from Sharpsburg to
          Williamsport to Hagerstown seem to have been the same in 1862 so
          Stuart did have some options to the NW but if he could not get
          further north than Mercersville, I guess those options wouldn't
          help.


          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Tom,
          >
          > Was the Cox's Farm Road expedition a viable one? Did Harsh ever
          > indicate to you his thoughts on it? Apparently Stuart must have
          > communicated something of worth to Lee if Lee, Longstreet and
          > Jackson were reviewing the larger scale maps of the area when
          > word comes to them at the Grove House of Hooker's crossing the
          > Antietam.
          >
          > Yr. Obt. Svt.
          > G E "Gerry" Mayers
          >
          > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
          > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 12:04 PM
          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: queston about parallel routes to
          > HagerstownTurnpike north from Sharpsburg
          >
          >
          > >I think what Gerry is talking about is the road now known as
          > >Mondell road and then Taylor's Landing Road which led to the
          > >aforementioned site on the Potomac. From there a road led along
          > >the banks for some distance and roads branching off that led
          > >back to the Pike and others to the Boonsboro - Williamsport
          > >road. It shows on local maps and the names are not mentioned,
          > >thus I am using modern names. It was Harsh's opinion that the
          > >"Cox Farm expedition" was an attempt to see if that road was
          > >usable to evacuate the army northward toward Hagerstown.
          > >
          > >
          > > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
          > > Professor of History
          > > Hagerstown Community College
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >>>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 3/17/2009 8:22
          > >>>> AM >>>
          > >
          > > I should have looked at Carman more closely; he says about the
          > > Antietam battlefield "The turnpike, country roads, and farm
          > > lanes gave ready access to all parts of the field upon which,
          > > save along the banks of the Antietam itself, there were no
          > > obstacl> > of artillery." Later he mentions "farm lanes" in several
          > > places. He often names the lanes for the farms to which they
          > > lead likely echoing usage at the time. In another place Carman
          > > mentions a "stock lane" which implies only a cattle path rather
          > > than a "regular" farm lane.
          > >
          > > Lanes were important as they usually had some type of fencing
          > > on either side (as did pikes and other roads) as they traversed
          > > various farmers' fields so provided some cover as well as
          > > barriers for troop movements. Looks like determining which
          > > lanes couriers/cavalry used will be interesting lacking primary
          > > sources.
          > >
          > > Larry
          > >
          > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
          > > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
          > >>
          > >> Gerry,
          > >>
          > >> Looking at the CC maps closely, the spaces between the various
          > >> types of fences around fields frequently have a regular dotted
          > >> line shown. The map legend doesn't list this symbol so I
          > >> wonder if it indicates a farm path. This makes sense as
          > >> farmers must get their teams to fields to plow and wagons to
          > >> harvest crops. So if many/most of these are wide enough to let
          > >> a wagon pass, they are also passable to couriers, etc.?
          > >>
          > >> Following the Smoketown Rd from the Dunkard Church towards
          > >> Smoketown shows that this dotted line splits as it enters the
          > >> East Woods and connects the parts of the road. I don't recall
          > >> reading comments about this link--anyone have any cites
          > >> referencing this connection or helpful statements about farm
          > >> lanes? Any thoughts? Or am I just coming late to this
          > >> realization about lanes = regular dotted lines?
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> Larry
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          >
        • eighth_conn_inf
          Tom I hope you find some great material there for your book! Are you finding sources which show from whom he obtained info? Can you share any tidbits--perhaps
          Message 4 of 18 , Mar 18 10:47 AM
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            Tom

            I hope you find some great material there for your book! Are you
            finding sources which show from whom he obtained info? Can you share
            any tidbits--perhaps when you return?


            Here is what I wrote for the G. Squirrel Church event which occurred
            late on the 16th and early on the 17th for my Antietam cav chapter;
            it is from Carman:

            "The Seventh Virginia Cavalry which Stuart detached from Munford to
            accompany Jackson on 10 September returned and made its way along
            the Potomac and then dismounted and walked to a point on the
            Hagerstown Turnpike just north of the Ground Squirrel Church and set
            up their line. Neither they nor the Third Pennsylvania Cavalry knew
            that they were 600 yards apart on the turnpike and Doubleday did not
            know that the Rebel troopers were less than a half-mile north of his
            division. The Seventh Virginia remained there until early morning
            and after discovering its vulnerable position, retreated southwest
            to New Industry on the Potomac until afternoon when it joined
            Munford a mile south of Sharpsburg at the Blackford House."




            If Stuart never made it to Rt 83 let alone Rt 85, Lee never got good
            info on routes north to Hagerstown from Sharpsburg.

            Larry


            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
            >
            > Larry, I am away from home and sources right now, but IIRC one ofthe
            > cavalry regiments camps on the night of the 16th up past the Squirrel
            > Level Church, with a few hundred yards of the Bakersville road. It
            > strikes me as logical that they'd know about a road that close to them,
            > but maybe not.
            > BTW, I am in HOG HEAVEN at the NYPL looking at the Ezra Carman
            > Collection. A lot of stuff not on the microfilm!
            >
            >
            > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            > Professor of History
            > Hagerstown Community College
          • Thomas Clemens
            OK, that was what I remembered. If they went to New Industry couldn t they confirm the river road was a viable route northard? Yes, one of these days. Thomas
            Message 5 of 18 , Mar 18 12:13 PM
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              OK, that was what I remembered. If they went to New Industry couldn't they confirm the river road was a viable route northard?
              Yes, one of these days.

              Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              Professor of History
              Hagerstown Community College


              >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 03/18/09 1:47 PM >>>
              Tom

              I hope you find some great material there for your book! Are you
              finding sources which show from whom he obtained info? Can you share
              any tidbits--perhaps when you return?


              Here is what I wrote for the G. Squirrel Church event which occurred
              late on the 16th and early on the 17th for my Antietam cav chapter;
              it is from Carman:

              "The Seventh Virginia Cavalry which Stuart detached from Munford to
              accompany Jackson on 10 September returned and made its way along
              the Potomac and then dismounted and walked to a point on the
              Hagerstown Turnpike just north of the Ground Squirrel Church and set
              up their line. Neither they nor the Third Pennsylvania Cavalry knew
              that they were 600 yards apart on the turnpike and Doubleday did not
              know that the Rebel troopers were less than a half-mile north of his
              division. The Seventh Virginia remained there until early morning
              and after discovering its vulnerable position, retreated southwest
              to New Industry on the Potomac until afternoon when it joined
              Munford a mile south of Sharpsburg at the Blackford House."




              If Stuart never made it to Rt 83 let alone Rt 85, Lee never got good
              info on routes north to Hagerstown from Sharpsburg.

              Larry


              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
              >
              > Larry, I am away from home and sources right now, but IIRC one ofthe
              > cavalry regiments camps on the night of the 16th up past the Squirrel
              > Level Church, with a few hundred yards of the Bakersville road. It
              > strikes me as logical that they'd know about a road that close to them,
              > but maybe not.
              > BTW, I am in HOG HEAVEN at the NYPL looking at the Ezra Carman
              > Collection. A lot of stuff not on the microfilm!
              >
              >
              > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              > Professor of History
              > Hagerstown Community College
            • eighth_conn_inf
              The road near New Industry according to the CC map peters out for a ways but there is a dotted line indicating at least a path. It heads more or less north
              Message 6 of 18 , Mar 18 1:41 PM
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                The "road" near New Industry according to the CC map peters out for a ways but there is a dotted line indicating at least a path. It heads more or less north then NE joining what is now the Taylor Landing Rd.It also continues splits to go north on what today is the Fairplay Rd. which joins Rt 63 (Spielman Rd) which joins Rt 65 a little to the east.

                I don't think any of Stuart's troopers got to Rt 63 on the 16th or 17th and probably not even the Keedysville-Williamsport Rd. If on the 17th Stuart could not get beyond the "Mercersville Bend" on the Potomac, he never got further north than todays Mondell road after reading about the artillery fight with the Unionists.

                Here is some material from Carman about the Jackson/Stuart effort on the 17th talking about the Cox farm, river road and New Industry.

                "Lee… ordered an attack by Jackson on McClellan's right in order to relieve his center from the
                pressure of Richardson's attack and the threatening movement of Pleasonton on the Boonsboro
                and Sharpsburg Road, and Stuart was then massing cavalry, artillery, and infantry for that
                purpose....Fitzhugh Lee's Brigade was then in rear of Jackson's left and near it was the 7th
                Virginia Cavalry of Robertson's Brigade. Hampton's Brigade was brought from the right....
                when he [joined] Fitzhugh Lee had already massed three of his regiments at the Cox place, on
                the river road....Hampton formed on Fitzhugh Lee's right, under cover of Nicodemus Hill, upon
                which were several batteries of artillery, slightly withdrawn from the crest of the hill. In all
                Stuart had seven regiments of cavalry and nine guns from various batteries...supported by the
                48th North Carolina Infantry of Walker's Division. The advance was made about 3:00 p.m., the
                4th Virginia Cavalry leading. The column, starting from Cox's [house], passed up the road under
                cover of the high ground on its right until the advance reached New Industry (today Mondell),
                when it halted while the guns under Pelham, turning to the right and moving a short distance on
                the road leading to the Hagerstown Road at the toll-gate [today's Mondell Rd?}, turned to the left
                and went into position on the high ground nine hundred yards from and directly west of
                Doubleday's guns on Poffenberger Hill. Stuart's guns were greeted with such a heavy fire as they
                took position that they were quickly used up and forced to withdraw.... Branch's and French's
                guns went into position on Nicodemus Hill about the time Pelham's guns were driven off and
                were almost instantly silenced, losing many killed or wounded by Doubleday's guns, which
                turned savagely upon them.... Stuart, after halting the head of his column an hour or more,
                withdrew and gave up the intended movement on McClellan's right, and the entire force fell
                back."

                Union First Corps artillery was near Joseph Poffenberger's House and Nicodemus Hill on the afternoon of the 17th so is it more probable than Carman believes that this action took place on today's Mondell Road.

                Doesn't the CC map near the upper left margin shows the intersection of the Keedysville-Williamsport Road with the Hagerstown Pike north of the Schneibele house? The only tollhouse I see is on the LOC Michler map to the SW of the intersection of the Hagerstown Pike and today's Mondell Rd.


                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
                >
                > OK, that was what I remembered. If they went to New Industry couldn't they confirm the river road was a viable route northard?
                > Yes, one of these days.
                >
                > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                > Professor of History
                > Hagerstown Community College>
              • eighth_conn_inf
                Tom, Looking closely at the CC maps for 3:30-3:45 PM and 4:20 PM, Stuart and his artillery formed on the Landing Rd (river road) and headed east on a farm road
                Message 7 of 18 , Mar 21 7:39 AM
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                  Tom,

                  Looking closely at the CC maps for 3:30-3:45 PM and 4:20 PM, Stuart and his artillery formed on the Landing Rd (river road) and headed east on a farm road towards the Coffman Farm Rd. They did not use the modern Mondell Rd nor the modern Taylor's Landing Rd. This assumes the CC maps are correct. I wonder if the 1908 version of the maps show the same locations for the troops?

                  Bottom line: on both the 16th and 17th, Stuart and Blackford never moved north of what I call the "Mercersville Bend" even though CC maps don't show Union troops due north of that point. Of course the CC maps don't show anything NW of Mercersville. Therefore, Stuart could not have found other roads leading north to Hagerstown since he did not get further north than New Industry.

                  Maybe the tour this Sunday (3/22) which includes Nicodemus Heights will talk about this. Have you uncovered anything more on this?

                  Larry
                • Robert Moore
                  I want to say that most of the National Cemeteries, at least in Virginia, received the stone headstones sometime in the mid-1870s, but I can t say for certain
                  Message 8 of 18 , Mar 21 4:07 PM
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                    I want to say that most of the National Cemeteries, at least in Virginia, received the stone headstones sometime in the mid-1870s, but I can't say for certain exactly what year.

                    Robert Moore




                    ________________________________
                    From: Stephen Recker <recker@...>
                    To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2009 7:56:44 PM
                    Subject: [TalkAntietam] National Cemetery Grave Markers


                    In an 1867 issue of Harper's Weekly there are illustrations of wooden
                    oval grave markers in the Antietam National Cemetery during the time of
                    the dedication. Does anyone know when these were taken down and
                    exchanged for the marble ones? They were gone by the 1880 dedication of
                    Simon. Thanks.







                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Stephen Recker
                    In an 1867 issue of Harper s Weekly there are illustrations of wooden oval grave markers in the Antietam National Cemetery during the time of the dedication.
                    Message 9 of 18 , Mar 21 4:56 PM
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                      In an 1867 issue of Harper's Weekly there are illustrations of wooden
                      oval grave markers in the Antietam National Cemetery during the time of
                      the dedication. Does anyone know when these were taken down and
                      exchanged for the marble ones? They were gone by the 1880 dedication of
                      Simon. Thanks.
                    • Stephen Recker
                      Robert, Thanks. I ll check with the park. Good idea. Stephen
                      Message 10 of 18 , Mar 21 8:03 PM
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                        Robert,

                        Thanks. I'll check with the park. Good idea.

                        Stephen

                        On Saturday, March 21, 2009, at 06:07 PM, Robert Moore wrote:

                        > I want to say that most of the National Cemeteries, at least in
                        > Virginia, received the stone headstones sometime in the mid-1870s, but
                        > I can't say for certain exactly what year.
                        >
                        > Robert Moore
                      • Stephen Recker
                        It turns out, according to Steve Stotelmyer s Bivouacs of the Dead, that the wooden markers were put in during 1867 and were replaced with stone markers in
                        Message 11 of 18 , Mar 22 5:47 PM
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                          It turns out, according to Steve Stotelmyer's Bivouacs of the Dead,
                          that the wooden markers were put in during 1867 and were replaced with
                          stone markers in 1873.

                          Stephen
                        • Robert Moore
                          That s interesting stuff Stephen. As I am one who frequents Civil War National Cemeteries, I m glad you shared this finding. Robert
                          Message 12 of 18 , Mar 23 5:38 AM
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                            That's interesting stuff Stephen. As I am one who frequents Civil War National Cemeteries, I'm glad you shared this finding.

                            Robert





                            ________________________________
                            From: Stephen Recker <recker@...>
                            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 8:47:48 PM
                            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] National Cemetery Grave Markers


                            It turns out, according to Steve Stotelmyer's Bivouacs of the Dead,
                            that the wooden markers were put in during 1867 and were replaced with
                            stone markers in 1873.

                            Stephen







                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Adam Zimmerli
                            Stephen, I went to Snell s Antietam Cemetery and Battlefield Administrative History, and it was conspicuously absent from any reference to the laying of
                            Message 13 of 18 , Mar 23 5:55 AM
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                              Stephen,

                              I went to Snell's Antietam Cemetery and Battlefield Administrative History, and it was conspicuously absent from any reference to the laying of headstones at Antietam. Ernst doesn't talk about it either. The only source that I was able to find (other than your Stotlemeyer reference) was an article from the 1950s by Edward Steere that states that headstones were authorized by congress for National Cemeteries that were added to federal authority after 1873. But, since the Antietam Board dallied until 1877 before the deed to the cemetery was finally given to the War department, I wonder if Stotelmeyer is correct?

                              I'm living in Germany right now, and most of my Antietam books are stateside in a large storage unit, so I don't have my copy of Bivouacs of the Dead with me. If you could indulge me, what is his reference? According to Snell, Biggs had already requested $18,000 for 6,000 headstones and inscriptions by December of 1865. I imagine that it took a while to raise the money, especially given the reluctance on the part of numerous Union states in handing over funds that they pledged, but is it possible that they were ahead of the game?

                              I seem to remember a photo from the 1870s in Adelman and Smith's Antietam: Then and Now that was taken by Tipton in either 1873 or 1877. Or, maybe it was Frassanito's book. I forget. Either way, if it was from 1873 then there should still be some visible evidence of disturbed ground from erecting the headstones, right?

                              Just a few thoughts.

                              Adam


                              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > It turns out, according to Steve Stotelmyer's Bivouacs of the Dead,
                              > that the wooden markers were put in during 1867 and were replaced with
                              > stone markers in 1873.
                              >
                              > Stephen
                              >
                            • Stephen Recker
                              Unfortunately, Stotelmyer does not give a reference, so I may be passing along a myth. Thanks for checking Snell. A quick look at Susan Trail s Remembering
                              Message 14 of 18 , Mar 24 4:45 AM
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                                Unfortunately, Stotelmyer does not give a reference, so I may be
                                passing along a myth. Thanks for checking Snell. A quick look at Susan
                                Trail's Remembering Antietam did not yield either.

                                The Tipton in Adelman and Smith's Antietam: Then and Now is from 1877.
                                Tipton made series of stereos that year at Antietam. This view is
                                looking toward the gate from Simon's pov. There are no grave markers in
                                the view. I believe the markers in that area are from more recent wars,
                                which would explain their absence in an 1870s view. Seems to me that
                                only about 3,000 of the current 5,000 graves were there during the
                                1870s.

                                Stephen

                                On Monday, March 23, 2009, at 07:55 AM, Adam Zimmerli wrote:

                                > Stephen,
                                >
                                > I went to Snell's Antietam Cemetery and Battlefield Administrative
                                > History, and it was conspicuously absent from any reference to the
                                > laying of headstones at Antietam. Ernst doesn't talk about it either.
                                > The only source that I was able to find (other than your Stotlemeyer
                                > reference) was an article from the 1950s by Edward Steere that states
                                > that headstones were authorized by congress for National Cemeteries
                                > that were added to federal authority after 1873. But, since the
                                > Antietam Board dallied until 1877 before the deed to the cemetery was
                                > finally given to the War department, I wonder if Stotelmeyer is
                                > correct?
                                >
                                > I'm living in Germany right now, and most of my Antietam books are
                                > stateside in a large storage unit, so I don't have my copy of Bivouacs
                                > of the Dead with me. If you could indulge me, what is his reference?
                                > According to Snell, Biggs had already requested $18,000 for 6,000
                                > headstones and inscriptions by December of 1865. I imagine that it
                                > took a while to raise the money, especially given the reluctance on
                                > the part of numerous Union states in handing over funds that they
                                > pledged, but is it possible that they were ahead of the game?
                                >
                                > I seem to remember a photo from the 1870s in Adelman and Smith's
                                > Antietam: Then and Now that was taken by Tipton in either 1873 or
                                > 1877. Or, maybe it was Frassanito's book. I forget. Either way, if it
                                > was from 1873 then there should still be some visible evidence of
                                > disturbed ground from erecting the headstones, right?
                                >
                                > Just a few thoughts.
                                >
                                > Adam


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Thomas Clemens
                                Forwarded from Steve Stotelmyer When researching The Bivouacs of the Dead information on the headstones at Antietam was hard to come by. As previously pointed
                                Message 15 of 18 , Mar 24 6:03 AM
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                                  Forwarded from Steve Stotelmyer

                                  When researching The Bivouacs of the Dead information on the headstones
                                  at Antietam was hard to come by. As previously pointed out Snell and
                                  Brown’s Administrative History was strangely silent on the subject. The
                                  best I was able to find was: Risch, Erna, Quartermaster Support of the
                                  Army: A History of the Corps 1775-1939, Center of Military History
                                  United States Army, Washington D.C. 1989. From pages 466-467, “…1867,
                                  Congress also made provisions for a continuing program of care and
                                  maintenance of national cemeteries…Congress directed the Secretary of
                                  War to mark each grave with a small headstone…The Secretary of War made
                                  no final decision until 1873, when Congress having appropriated $1
                                  million for headstones, he decided in favor of marble or durable
                                  stone…Before the end of the year, the Quartermaster’s Department had
                                  let contracts and the work of placing the headstones in the national
                                  cemeteries was begun.” Please accept my apologies for failure to cite
                                  the source.

                                  Since the publication of Bivouacs the Park Service has issued a
                                  pamphlet with the following: “1879 also saw the inception of the
                                  standardized headstone. Designed by General Montgomery Meigs, the marble
                                  stones we see today are mostly Meig’s design with some variations. From
                                  the beginning a number of styles were used to mark the graves. Some
                                  inscriptions are in relief and some are not. Additionally, the relatives
                                  of some soldiers elected to provide their own markers, their designs
                                  varied greatly as did the material used. The private markers included
                                  metal, granite, wood, and of course marble. As late as 1936 some of
                                  these irregular markers remained. During that year Superintendent Carl
                                  M. Taute had the last 43 removed and replaced by the standard design.”
                                  Unfortunately there is no documentation, but I did find the last
                                  sentence about Superintendent Taute documented in Snell and Brown’s
                                  Administrative History, page 224. Hope this information helps.
                                • cshoffeditz
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Mar 25 6:59 AM
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                                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Tom,
                                    >
                                    > Looking closely at the CC maps for 3:30-3:45 PM and 4:20 PM, Stuart and his artillery formed on the Landing Rd (river road) and headed east on a farm road towards the Coffman Farm Rd. They did not use the modern Mondell Rd nor the modern Taylor's Landing Rd. This assumes the CC maps are correct. I wonder if the 1908 version of the maps show the same locations for the troops?
                                    >
                                    > Bottom line: on both the 16th and 17th, Stuart and Blackford never moved north of what I call the "Mercersville Bend" even though CC maps don't show Union troops due north of that point. Of course the CC maps don't show anything NW of Mercersville. Therefore, Stuart could not have found other roads leading north to Hagerstown since he did not get further north than New Industry.
                                    >
                                    > Maybe the tour this Sunday (3/22) which includes Nicodemus Heights will talk about this. Have you uncovered anything more on this?
                                    >
                                    > Larry
                                    >
                                  • Stephen Recker
                                    Tom, This is awesome. Thanks! Stephen ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Mar 26 4:24 AM
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                                      Tom,

                                      This is awesome. Thanks!

                                      Stephen

                                      On Tuesday, March 24, 2009, at 08:03 AM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                                      > Forwarded from Steve Stotelmyer
                                      >
                                      > When researching The Bivouacs of the Dead information on the headstones
                                      > at Antietam was hard to come by. As previously pointed out Snell and
                                      > Brown�s Administrative History was strangely silent on the subject. The
                                      > best I was able to find was: Risch, Erna, Quartermaster Support of the
                                      > Army: A History of the Corps 1775-1939, Center of Military History
                                      > United States Army, Washington D.C. 1989. From pages 466-467, ��1867,
                                      > Congress also made provisions for a continuing program of care and
                                      > maintenance of national cemeteries�Congress directed the Secretary of
                                      > War to mark each grave with a small headstone�The Secretary of War made
                                      > no final decision until 1873, when Congress having appropriated $1
                                      > million for headstones, he decided in favor of marble or durable
                                      > stone�Before the end of the year, the Quartermaster�s Department had
                                      > let contracts and the work of placing the headstones in the national
                                      > cemeteries was begun.� Please accept my apologies for failure to cite
                                      > the source.
                                      >
                                      > Since the publication of Bivouacs the Park Service has issued a
                                      > pamphlet with the following: �1879 also saw the inception of the
                                      > standardized headstone. Designed by General Montgomery Meigs, the
                                      > marble
                                      > stones we see today are mostly Meig�s design with some variations. From
                                      > the beginning a number of styles were used to mark the graves. Some
                                      > inscriptions are in relief and some are not. Additionally, the
                                      > relatives
                                      > of some soldiers elected to provide their own markers, their designs
                                      > varied greatly as did the material used. The private markers included
                                      > metal, granite, wood, and of course marble. As late as 1936 some of
                                      > these irregular markers remained. During that year Superintendent Carl
                                      > M. Taute had the last 43 removed and replaced by the standard design.�
                                      > Unfortunately there is no documentation, but I did find the last
                                      > sentence about Superintendent Taute documented in Snell and Brown�s
                                      > Administrative History, page 224. Hope this information helps.
                                      >
                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Stephen Recker
                                      Anyone know what day in 1898 the 35th MA monument was dedicated and put on the bridge? Thanks. Stephen
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Nov 15, 2009
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                                        Anyone know what day in 1898 the 35th MA monument was dedicated and put
                                        on the bridge? Thanks.

                                        Stephen
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