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Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: queston about parallel routes to Hagerstown Turnpike north from Sharpsburg

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  • G E Mayers
    Larry, I know that Lee would not have wanted to take Smoketown Road...too close to Antietam Creek area. I was more interested in what road would have been
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 16, 2009
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      Larry,

      I know that Lee would not have wanted to take Smoketown
      Road...too close to Antietam Creek area. I was more interested in
      what road would have been between the banks of the Potomac River
      and the Hagerstown Pike. I am sure there was some sort of road
      net that would eventually have enabled the ANVa to get up to
      Hagerstown...or at least Williamsport.

      As to your other, send Brian our moderator a private email and
      see if he would be willing to accept the document. If you would
      like to send it entire to me offline, please feel free to do so.

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 6:45 PM
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: queston about parallel routes to
      Hagerstown Turnpike north from Sharpsburg


      Gerry,

      Harsh's main source for this story appears to be W.W. Blackford,
      "War Years with Jeb Stuart, 148-9. Von Borcke isn't too much help
      and neither is Carman.

      Of course the most likely road is the Hagerstown Pike as the
      Landing Road I think is too far west. I also don't think the
      Smoketown Rd is a good candidate since later in the day on the
      16th the Unionists were there at least on much of it towards the
      north. I just can't see other good routes north.

      Another interesting question is where did the Blackford incident
      take place? My estimation is that it does so later in the
      afternoon with pickets of Doubleday's division near the
      Hagerstown Pike. I'd like to get your comments on that if you
      wouldn't mind reading something I wrote that is probably too long
      for this post. I can PM you with it if you wish or post it here.

      Larry

      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > All,
      >
      > Harsh mentions in his chapter on September 16 that Stuart was
      > given a mission during the mid to late morning of that day by
      > Lee
      > to ascertain parallel routes of advance from Sharpsburg up
      > towards Hagerstown; routes that would help the ANVa if it was
      > able to escape the box McClellan was forming around it to the
      > west. We all know that Hooker's advance pretty much shut that
      > door.
      >
      > However, IIRC Harsh does not specify which routes Stuart found
      > that possibly could have aided the ANVa in marching north
      > towards
      > Hagerstown from Sharpsburg and hopefully resuming the campaign
      > and then being able to offer battle to the AoP on conditions
      > favorable to the ANVa rather than the AoP.
      >
      > Does any one know which routes Stuart discovered, the names of
      > the roads, etc that he would have reported via courier from his
      > HQ at the Dunkard Church back to Lee at the Grove House in
      > town?
      >
      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
      >
      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
      > from
      > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      >
    • eighth_conn_inf
      Gerry, After looking closely at the CC maps both on line and hard copy, I see none. I see nothing in any accounts by participants. There were likely some sort
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 17, 2009
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        Gerry,

        After looking closely at the CC maps both on line and hard copy, I see none. I see nothing in any accounts by participants. There were likely some sort of paths, farm lanes, etc., since there were farm fields in the area but nothing apparently that could support an army moving with its wagons.

        Larry

        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
        >
        > Larry,
        >
        > I know that Lee would not have wanted to take Smoketown
        > Road...too close to Antietam Creek area. I was more interested in
        > what road would have been between the banks of the Potomac River
        > and the Hagerstown Pike. I am sure there was some sort of road
        > net that would eventually have enabled the ANVa to get up to
        > Hagerstown...or at least Williamsport.
        >
        > As to your other, send Brian our moderator a private email and
        > see if he would be willing to accept the document. If you would
        > like to send it entire to me offline, please feel free to do so.
        >
        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
        >
        > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
        > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 6:45 PM
        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: queston about parallel routes to
        > Hagerstown Turnpike north from Sharpsburg
        >
        >
        > Gerry,
        >
        > Harsh's main source for this story appears to be W.W. Blackford,
        > "War Years with Jeb Stuart, 148-9. Von Borcke isn't too much help
        > and neither is Carman.
        >
        > Of course the most likely road is the Hagerstown Pike as the
        > Landing Road I think is too far west. I also don't think the
        > Smoketown Rd is a good candidate since later in the day on the
        > 16th the Unionists were there at least on much of it towards the
        > north. I just can't see other good routes north.
        >
        > Another interesting question is where did the Blackford incident
        > take place? My estimation is that it does so later in the
        > afternoon with pickets of Doubleday's division near the
        > Hagerstown Pike. I'd like to get your comments on that if you
        > wouldn't mind reading something I wrote that is probably too long
        > for this post. I can PM you with it if you wish or post it here.
        >
        > Larry
        >
        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > All,
        > >
        > > Harsh mentions in his chapter on September 16 that Stuart was
        > > given a mission during the mid to late morning of that day by
        > > Lee
        > > to ascertain parallel routes of advance from Sharpsburg up
        > > towards Hagerstown; routes that would help the ANVa if it was
        > > able to escape the box McClellan was forming around it to the
        > > west. We all know that Hooker's advance pretty much shut that
        > > door.
        > >
        > > However, IIRC Harsh does not specify which routes Stuart found
        > > that possibly could have aided the ANVa in marching north
        > > towards
        > > Hagerstown from Sharpsburg and hopefully resuming the campaign
        > > and then being able to offer battle to the AoP on conditions
        > > favorable to the ANVa rather than the AoP.
        > >
        > > Does any one know which routes Stuart discovered, the names of
        > > the roads, etc that he would have reported via courier from his
        > > HQ at the Dunkard Church back to Lee at the Grove House in
        > > town?
        > >
        > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
        > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
        > >
        > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
        > > from
        > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        > >
        >
      • eighth_conn_inf
        Gerry, Looking at the CC maps closely, the spaces between the various types of fences around fields frequently have a regular dotted line shown. The map legend
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 17, 2009
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          Gerry,

          Looking at the CC maps closely, the spaces between the various types of fences around fields frequently have a regular dotted line shown. The map legend doesn't list this symbol so I wonder if it indicates a farm path. This makes sense as farmers must get their teams to fields to plow and wagons to harvest crops. So if many/most of these are wide enough to let a wagon pass, they are also passable to couriers, etc.?

          Following the Smoketown Rd from the Dunkard Church towards Smoketown shows that this dotted line splits as it enters the East Woods and connects the parts of the road. I don't recall reading comments about this link--anyone have any cites referencing this connection or helpful statements about farm lanes? Any thoughts? Or am I just coming late to this realization about lanes = regular dotted lines?


          Larry



          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
          >
          > Gerry,
          >
          > After looking closely at the CC maps both on line and hard copy, I see none. I see nothing in any accounts by participants. There were likely some sort of paths, farm lanes, etc., since there were farm fields in the area but nothing apparently that could support an army moving with its wagons.
          >
          > Larry
          >
          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Larry,
          > >
          > > I know that Lee would not have wanted to take Smoketown
          > > Road...too close to Antietam Creek area. I was more interested in
          > > what road would have been between the banks of the Potomac River
          > > and the Hagerstown Pike. I am sure there was some sort of road
          > > net that would eventually have enabled the ANVa to get up to
          > > Hagerstown...or at least Williamsport.
          > >
          > > As to your other, send Brian our moderator a private email and
          > > see if he would be willing to accept the document. If you would
          > > like to send it entire to me offline, please feel free to do so.
          > >
          > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
          > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
        • eighth_conn_inf
          I should have looked at Carman more closely; he says about the Antietam battlefield The turnpike, country roads, and farm lanes gave ready access to all parts
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 17, 2009
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            I should have looked at Carman more closely; he says about the Antietam battlefield "The turnpike, country roads, and farm lanes gave ready access to all parts of the field upon which, save along the banks of the Antietam itself, there were no obstacles to the movement of troops and but few to the passage of artillery." Later he mentions "farm lanes" in several places. He often names the lanes for the farms to which they lead likely echoing usage at the time. In another place Carman mentions a "stock lane" which implies only a cattle path rather than a "regular" farm lane.

            Lanes were important as they usually had some type of fencing on either side (as did pikes and other roads) as they traversed various farmers' fields so provided some cover as well as barriers for troop movements. Looks like determining which lanes couriers/cavalry used will be interesting lacking primary sources.

            Larry

            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
            >
            > Gerry,
            >
            > Looking at the CC maps closely, the spaces between the various types of fences around fields frequently have a regular dotted line shown. The map legend doesn't list this symbol so I wonder if it indicates a farm path. This makes sense as farmers must get their teams to fields to plow and wagons to harvest crops. So if many/most of these are wide enough to let a wagon pass, they are also passable to couriers, etc.?
            >
            > Following the Smoketown Rd from the Dunkard Church towards Smoketown shows that this dotted line splits as it enters the East Woods and connects the parts of the road. I don't recall reading comments about this link--anyone have any cites referencing this connection or helpful statements about farm lanes? Any thoughts? Or am I just coming late to this realization about lanes = regular dotted lines?
            >
            >
            > Larry
          • G E Mayers
            Dear Larry, Per all your emails about the lanes, road, etc., I think you might be on to something. Would be interesting to see what Tom Clemens has to say
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 17, 2009
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              Dear Larry,

              Per all your emails about the lanes, road, etc., I think you
              might be on to something. Would be interesting to see what Tom
              Clemens has to say about that. Or possibly Stephen Recker.

              I do know there was a small settlement nestled near the bank of
              the Potomac called New Industry which should be on the CC maps
              and also should indicate the presence of regular roads as opposed
              to farm lanes, etc.

              As to farm lanes, one highly prominent one is the one which went
              from the Hagerstown Pike to the Piper House and then continued
              straight on until it met up with the south - southwestward jog of
              the Hog Trough Road (Sunken Road) shortly before both avenues met
              the Boonsborough Turnpike.

              Returning to my original question, and as per what Joe Harsh says
              in TATF, Lee must have seen something on his large scale maps of
              Washington County etc to suggest the possibility of some sort of
              road net between the Potomac River and the Hagerstown
              Turnpike...which would explain why he orders Stuart to conduct a
              fairly substantial reconnaisance to determine if it is indeed
              true.

              I am beginning to suspect that, if there was some means of the
              army taking to some sort of road net from Sharpsburg up towards
              Hagerstown, at some point it would have met up with the road net
              leading to Williamsport. From there the army could have turned
              and used better roads.

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 9:22 AM
              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: queston about parallel routes to
              Hagerstown Turnpike north from Sharpsburg


              I should have looked at Carman more closely; he says about the
              Antietam battlefield "The turnpike, country roads, and farm lanes
              gave ready access to all parts of the field upon which, save
              along the banks of the Antietam itself, there were no obstacles
              to the movement of troops and but few to the passage of
              artillery." Later he mentions "farm lanes" in several places. He
              often names the lanes for the farms to which they lead likely
              echoing usage at the time. In another place Carman mentions a
              "stock lane" which implies only a cattle path rather than a
              "regular" farm lane.

              Lanes were important as they usually had some type of fencing on
              either side (as did pikes and other roads) as they traversed
              various farmers' fields so provided some cover as well as
              barriers for troop movements. Looks like determining which lanes
              couriers/cavalry used will be interesting lacking primary
              sources.

              Larry

              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
              <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
              >
              > Gerry,
              >
              > Looking at the CC maps closely, the spaces between the various
              > types of fences around fields frequently have a regular dotted
              > line shown. The map legend doesn't list this symbol so I wonder
              > if it indicates a farm path. This makes sense as farmers must
              > get their teams to fields to plow and wagons to harvest crops.
              > So if many/most of these are wide enough to let a wagon pass,
              > they are also passable to couriers, etc.?
              >
              > Following the Smoketown Rd from the Dunkard Church towards
              > Smoketown shows that this dotted line splits as it enters the
              > East Woods and connects the parts of the road. I don't recall
              > reading comments about this link--anyone have any cites
              > referencing this connection or helpful statements about farm
              > lanes? Any thoughts? Or am I just coming late to this
              > realization about lanes = regular dotted lines?
              >
              >
              > Larry
            • cowie_steve
              Gerry, IIRC, Harsh describes a northbound river road leading to New Industry that is cloaked from Federal view by Nicodemus Heights and a series of small,
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 17, 2009
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                Gerry,

                IIRC, Harsh describes a northbound "river road" leading to New Industry that is cloaked from Federal view by Nicodemus Heights and a series of small, disconnected ridges. This was the same route taken by Stuart on the afternoon of the 17th when Pelham "stirred up" the Federal right artillery.

                Steve



                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
                >
                > Larry,
                >
                > I know that Lee would not have wanted to take Smoketown
                > Road...too close to Antietam Creek area. I was more interested in
                > what road would have been between the banks of the Potomac River
                > and the Hagerstown Pike. I am sure there was some sort of road
                > net that would eventually have enabled the ANVa to get up to
                > Hagerstown...or at least Williamsport.
                >
                > As to your other, send Brian our moderator a private email and
                > see if he would be willing to accept the document. If you would
                > like to send it entire to me offline, please feel free to do so.
                >
                > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                >
                > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 6:45 PM
                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: queston about parallel routes to
                > Hagerstown Turnpike north from Sharpsburg
                >
                >
                > Gerry,
                >
                > Harsh's main source for this story appears to be W.W. Blackford,
                > "War Years with Jeb Stuart, 148-9. Von Borcke isn't too much help
                > and neither is Carman.
                >
                > Of course the most likely road is the Hagerstown Pike as the
                > Landing Road I think is too far west. I also don't think the
                > Smoketown Rd is a good candidate since later in the day on the
                > 16th the Unionists were there at least on much of it towards the
                > north. I just can't see other good routes north.
                >
                > Another interesting question is where did the Blackford incident
                > take place? My estimation is that it does so later in the
                > afternoon with pickets of Doubleday's division near the
                > Hagerstown Pike. I'd like to get your comments on that if you
                > wouldn't mind reading something I wrote that is probably too long
                > for this post. I can PM you with it if you wish or post it here.
                >
                > Larry
                >
                > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > All,
                > >
                > > Harsh mentions in his chapter on September 16 that Stuart was
                > > given a mission during the mid to late morning of that day by
                > > Lee
                > > to ascertain parallel routes of advance from Sharpsburg up
                > > towards Hagerstown; routes that would help the ANVa if it was
                > > able to escape the box McClellan was forming around it to the
                > > west. We all know that Hooker's advance pretty much shut that
                > > door.
                > >
                > > However, IIRC Harsh does not specify which routes Stuart found
                > > that possibly could have aided the ANVa in marching north
                > > towards
                > > Hagerstown from Sharpsburg and hopefully resuming the campaign
                > > and then being able to offer battle to the AoP on conditions
                > > favorable to the ANVa rather than the AoP.
                > >
                > > Does any one know which routes Stuart discovered, the names of
                > > the roads, etc that he would have reported via courier from his
                > > HQ at the Dunkard Church back to Lee at the Grove House in
                > > town?
                > >
                > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                > >
                > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                > > from
                > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                > >
                >
              • Thomas Clemens
                I think what Gerry is talking about is the road now known as Mondell road and then Taylor s Landing Road which led to the aforementioned site on the Potomac.
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 17, 2009
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                  I think what Gerry is talking about is the road now known as Mondell road and then Taylor's Landing Road which led to the aforementioned site on the Potomac. From there a road led along the banks for some distance and roads branching off that led back to the Pike and others to the Boonsboro - Williamsport road. It shows on local maps and the names are not mentioned, thus I am using modern names. It was Harsh's opinion that the "Cox Farm expedition" was an attempt to see if that road was usable to evacuate the army northward toward Hagerstown.


                  Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                  Professor of History
                  Hagerstown Community College




                  >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 3/17/2009 8:22 AM >>>

                  I should have looked at Carman more closely; he says about the Antietam battlefield "The turnpike, country roads, and farm lanes gave ready access to all parts of the field upon which, save along the banks of the Antietam itself, there were no obstacles to the movement of troops and but few to the passage of artillery." Later he mentions "farm lanes" in several places. He often names the lanes for the farms to which they lead likely echoing usage at the time. In another place Carman mentions a "stock lane" which implies only a cattle path rather than a "regular" farm lane.

                  Lanes were important as they usually had some type of fencing on either side (as did pikes and other roads) as they traversed various farmers' fields so provided some cover as well as barriers for troop movements. Looks like determining which lanes couriers/cavalry used will be interesting lacking primary sources.

                  Larry

                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Gerry,
                  >
                  > Looking at the CC maps closely, the spaces between the various types of fences around fields frequently have a regular dotted line shown. The map legend doesn't list this symbol so I wonder if it indicates a farm path. This makes sense as farmers must get their teams to fields to plow and wagons to harvest crops. So if many/most of these are wide enough to let a wagon pass, they are also passable to couriers, etc.?
                  >
                  > Following the Smoketown Rd from the Dunkard Church towards Smoketown shows that this dotted line splits as it enters the East Woods and connects the parts of the road. I don't recall reading comments about this link--anyone have any cites referencing this connection or helpful statements about farm lanes? Any thoughts? Or am I just coming late to this realization about lanes = regular dotted lines?
                  >
                  >
                  > Larry




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