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queston about parallel routes to Hagerstownb Turnpike north from Sharpsburg

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  • G E Mayers
    All, Harsh mentions in his chapter on September 16 that Stuart was given a mission during the mid to late morning of that day by Lee to ascertain parallel
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 16, 2009
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      All,

      Harsh mentions in his chapter on September 16 that Stuart was
      given a mission during the mid to late morning of that day by Lee
      to ascertain parallel routes of advance from Sharpsburg up
      towards Hagerstown; routes that would help the ANVa if it was
      able to escape the box McClellan was forming around it to the
      west. We all know that Hooker's advance pretty much shut that
      door.

      However, IIRC Harsh does not specify which routes Stuart found
      that possibly could have aided the ANVa in marching north towards
      Hagerstown from Sharpsburg and hopefully resuming the campaign
      and then being able to offer battle to the AoP on conditions
      favorable to the ANVa rather than the AoP.

      Does any one know which routes Stuart discovered, the names of
      the roads, etc that he would have reported via courier from his
      HQ at the Dunkard Church back to Lee at the Grove House in town?

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
    • eighth_conn_inf
      Gerry, Harsh s main source for this story appears to be W.W. Blackford, War Years with Jeb Stuart, 148-9. Von Borcke isn t too much help and neither is
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 16, 2009
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        Gerry,

        Harsh's main source for this story appears to be W.W. Blackford, "War Years with Jeb Stuart, 148-9. Von Borcke isn't too much help and neither is Carman.

        Of course the most likely road is the Hagerstown Pike as the Landing Road I think is too far west. I also don't think the Smoketown Rd is a good candidate since later in the day on the 16th the Unionists were there at least on much of it towards the north. I just can't see other good routes north.

        Another interesting question is where did the Blackford incident take place? My estimation is that it does so later in the afternoon with pickets of Doubleday's division near the Hagerstown Pike. I'd like to get your comments on that if you wouldn't mind reading something I wrote that is probably too long for this post. I can PM you with it if you wish or post it here.

        Larry

        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
        >
        > All,
        >
        > Harsh mentions in his chapter on September 16 that Stuart was
        > given a mission during the mid to late morning of that day by Lee
        > to ascertain parallel routes of advance from Sharpsburg up
        > towards Hagerstown; routes that would help the ANVa if it was
        > able to escape the box McClellan was forming around it to the
        > west. We all know that Hooker's advance pretty much shut that
        > door.
        >
        > However, IIRC Harsh does not specify which routes Stuart found
        > that possibly could have aided the ANVa in marching north towards
        > Hagerstown from Sharpsburg and hopefully resuming the campaign
        > and then being able to offer battle to the AoP on conditions
        > favorable to the ANVa rather than the AoP.
        >
        > Does any one know which routes Stuart discovered, the names of
        > the roads, etc that he would have reported via courier from his
        > HQ at the Dunkard Church back to Lee at the Grove House in town?
        >
        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
        >
        > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        >
      • G E Mayers
        Larry, I know that Lee would not have wanted to take Smoketown Road...too close to Antietam Creek area. I was more interested in what road would have been
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 16, 2009
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          Larry,

          I know that Lee would not have wanted to take Smoketown
          Road...too close to Antietam Creek area. I was more interested in
          what road would have been between the banks of the Potomac River
          and the Hagerstown Pike. I am sure there was some sort of road
          net that would eventually have enabled the ANVa to get up to
          Hagerstown...or at least Williamsport.

          As to your other, send Brian our moderator a private email and
          see if he would be willing to accept the document. If you would
          like to send it entire to me offline, please feel free to do so.

          Yr. Obt. Svt.
          G E "Gerry" Mayers

          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 6:45 PM
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: queston about parallel routes to
          Hagerstown Turnpike north from Sharpsburg


          Gerry,

          Harsh's main source for this story appears to be W.W. Blackford,
          "War Years with Jeb Stuart, 148-9. Von Borcke isn't too much help
          and neither is Carman.

          Of course the most likely road is the Hagerstown Pike as the
          Landing Road I think is too far west. I also don't think the
          Smoketown Rd is a good candidate since later in the day on the
          16th the Unionists were there at least on much of it towards the
          north. I just can't see other good routes north.

          Another interesting question is where did the Blackford incident
          take place? My estimation is that it does so later in the
          afternoon with pickets of Doubleday's division near the
          Hagerstown Pike. I'd like to get your comments on that if you
          wouldn't mind reading something I wrote that is probably too long
          for this post. I can PM you with it if you wish or post it here.

          Larry

          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > All,
          >
          > Harsh mentions in his chapter on September 16 that Stuart was
          > given a mission during the mid to late morning of that day by
          > Lee
          > to ascertain parallel routes of advance from Sharpsburg up
          > towards Hagerstown; routes that would help the ANVa if it was
          > able to escape the box McClellan was forming around it to the
          > west. We all know that Hooker's advance pretty much shut that
          > door.
          >
          > However, IIRC Harsh does not specify which routes Stuart found
          > that possibly could have aided the ANVa in marching north
          > towards
          > Hagerstown from Sharpsburg and hopefully resuming the campaign
          > and then being able to offer battle to the AoP on conditions
          > favorable to the ANVa rather than the AoP.
          >
          > Does any one know which routes Stuart discovered, the names of
          > the roads, etc that he would have reported via courier from his
          > HQ at the Dunkard Church back to Lee at the Grove House in
          > town?
          >
          > Yr. Obt. Svt.
          > G E "Gerry" Mayers
          >
          > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
          > from
          > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          >
        • eighth_conn_inf
          Gerry, After looking closely at the CC maps both on line and hard copy, I see none. I see nothing in any accounts by participants. There were likely some sort
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 17, 2009
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            Gerry,

            After looking closely at the CC maps both on line and hard copy, I see none. I see nothing in any accounts by participants. There were likely some sort of paths, farm lanes, etc., since there were farm fields in the area but nothing apparently that could support an army moving with its wagons.

            Larry

            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
            >
            > Larry,
            >
            > I know that Lee would not have wanted to take Smoketown
            > Road...too close to Antietam Creek area. I was more interested in
            > what road would have been between the banks of the Potomac River
            > and the Hagerstown Pike. I am sure there was some sort of road
            > net that would eventually have enabled the ANVa to get up to
            > Hagerstown...or at least Williamsport.
            >
            > As to your other, send Brian our moderator a private email and
            > see if he would be willing to accept the document. If you would
            > like to send it entire to me offline, please feel free to do so.
            >
            > Yr. Obt. Svt.
            > G E "Gerry" Mayers
            >
            > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
            > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 6:45 PM
            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: queston about parallel routes to
            > Hagerstown Turnpike north from Sharpsburg
            >
            >
            > Gerry,
            >
            > Harsh's main source for this story appears to be W.W. Blackford,
            > "War Years with Jeb Stuart, 148-9. Von Borcke isn't too much help
            > and neither is Carman.
            >
            > Of course the most likely road is the Hagerstown Pike as the
            > Landing Road I think is too far west. I also don't think the
            > Smoketown Rd is a good candidate since later in the day on the
            > 16th the Unionists were there at least on much of it towards the
            > north. I just can't see other good routes north.
            >
            > Another interesting question is where did the Blackford incident
            > take place? My estimation is that it does so later in the
            > afternoon with pickets of Doubleday's division near the
            > Hagerstown Pike. I'd like to get your comments on that if you
            > wouldn't mind reading something I wrote that is probably too long
            > for this post. I can PM you with it if you wish or post it here.
            >
            > Larry
            >
            > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > All,
            > >
            > > Harsh mentions in his chapter on September 16 that Stuart was
            > > given a mission during the mid to late morning of that day by
            > > Lee
            > > to ascertain parallel routes of advance from Sharpsburg up
            > > towards Hagerstown; routes that would help the ANVa if it was
            > > able to escape the box McClellan was forming around it to the
            > > west. We all know that Hooker's advance pretty much shut that
            > > door.
            > >
            > > However, IIRC Harsh does not specify which routes Stuart found
            > > that possibly could have aided the ANVa in marching north
            > > towards
            > > Hagerstown from Sharpsburg and hopefully resuming the campaign
            > > and then being able to offer battle to the AoP on conditions
            > > favorable to the ANVa rather than the AoP.
            > >
            > > Does any one know which routes Stuart discovered, the names of
            > > the roads, etc that he would have reported via courier from his
            > > HQ at the Dunkard Church back to Lee at the Grove House in
            > > town?
            > >
            > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
            > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
            > >
            > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
            > > from
            > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            > >
            >
          • eighth_conn_inf
            Gerry, Looking at the CC maps closely, the spaces between the various types of fences around fields frequently have a regular dotted line shown. The map legend
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 17, 2009
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              Gerry,

              Looking at the CC maps closely, the spaces between the various types of fences around fields frequently have a regular dotted line shown. The map legend doesn't list this symbol so I wonder if it indicates a farm path. This makes sense as farmers must get their teams to fields to plow and wagons to harvest crops. So if many/most of these are wide enough to let a wagon pass, they are also passable to couriers, etc.?

              Following the Smoketown Rd from the Dunkard Church towards Smoketown shows that this dotted line splits as it enters the East Woods and connects the parts of the road. I don't recall reading comments about this link--anyone have any cites referencing this connection or helpful statements about farm lanes? Any thoughts? Or am I just coming late to this realization about lanes = regular dotted lines?


              Larry



              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
              >
              > Gerry,
              >
              > After looking closely at the CC maps both on line and hard copy, I see none. I see nothing in any accounts by participants. There were likely some sort of paths, farm lanes, etc., since there were farm fields in the area but nothing apparently that could support an army moving with its wagons.
              >
              > Larry
              >
              > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Larry,
              > >
              > > I know that Lee would not have wanted to take Smoketown
              > > Road...too close to Antietam Creek area. I was more interested in
              > > what road would have been between the banks of the Potomac River
              > > and the Hagerstown Pike. I am sure there was some sort of road
              > > net that would eventually have enabled the ANVa to get up to
              > > Hagerstown...or at least Williamsport.
              > >
              > > As to your other, send Brian our moderator a private email and
              > > see if he would be willing to accept the document. If you would
              > > like to send it entire to me offline, please feel free to do so.
              > >
              > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
              > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
            • eighth_conn_inf
              I should have looked at Carman more closely; he says about the Antietam battlefield The turnpike, country roads, and farm lanes gave ready access to all parts
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 17, 2009
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                I should have looked at Carman more closely; he says about the Antietam battlefield "The turnpike, country roads, and farm lanes gave ready access to all parts of the field upon which, save along the banks of the Antietam itself, there were no obstacles to the movement of troops and but few to the passage of artillery." Later he mentions "farm lanes" in several places. He often names the lanes for the farms to which they lead likely echoing usage at the time. In another place Carman mentions a "stock lane" which implies only a cattle path rather than a "regular" farm lane.

                Lanes were important as they usually had some type of fencing on either side (as did pikes and other roads) as they traversed various farmers' fields so provided some cover as well as barriers for troop movements. Looks like determining which lanes couriers/cavalry used will be interesting lacking primary sources.

                Larry

                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
                >
                > Gerry,
                >
                > Looking at the CC maps closely, the spaces between the various types of fences around fields frequently have a regular dotted line shown. The map legend doesn't list this symbol so I wonder if it indicates a farm path. This makes sense as farmers must get their teams to fields to plow and wagons to harvest crops. So if many/most of these are wide enough to let a wagon pass, they are also passable to couriers, etc.?
                >
                > Following the Smoketown Rd from the Dunkard Church towards Smoketown shows that this dotted line splits as it enters the East Woods and connects the parts of the road. I don't recall reading comments about this link--anyone have any cites referencing this connection or helpful statements about farm lanes? Any thoughts? Or am I just coming late to this realization about lanes = regular dotted lines?
                >
                >
                > Larry
              • G E Mayers
                Dear Larry, Per all your emails about the lanes, road, etc., I think you might be on to something. Would be interesting to see what Tom Clemens has to say
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 17, 2009
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                  Dear Larry,

                  Per all your emails about the lanes, road, etc., I think you
                  might be on to something. Would be interesting to see what Tom
                  Clemens has to say about that. Or possibly Stephen Recker.

                  I do know there was a small settlement nestled near the bank of
                  the Potomac called New Industry which should be on the CC maps
                  and also should indicate the presence of regular roads as opposed
                  to farm lanes, etc.

                  As to farm lanes, one highly prominent one is the one which went
                  from the Hagerstown Pike to the Piper House and then continued
                  straight on until it met up with the south - southwestward jog of
                  the Hog Trough Road (Sunken Road) shortly before both avenues met
                  the Boonsborough Turnpike.

                  Returning to my original question, and as per what Joe Harsh says
                  in TATF, Lee must have seen something on his large scale maps of
                  Washington County etc to suggest the possibility of some sort of
                  road net between the Potomac River and the Hagerstown
                  Turnpike...which would explain why he orders Stuart to conduct a
                  fairly substantial reconnaisance to determine if it is indeed
                  true.

                  I am beginning to suspect that, if there was some means of the
                  army taking to some sort of road net from Sharpsburg up towards
                  Hagerstown, at some point it would have met up with the road net
                  leading to Williamsport. From there the army could have turned
                  and used better roads.

                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 9:22 AM
                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: queston about parallel routes to
                  Hagerstown Turnpike north from Sharpsburg


                  I should have looked at Carman more closely; he says about the
                  Antietam battlefield "The turnpike, country roads, and farm lanes
                  gave ready access to all parts of the field upon which, save
                  along the banks of the Antietam itself, there were no obstacles
                  to the movement of troops and but few to the passage of
                  artillery." Later he mentions "farm lanes" in several places. He
                  often names the lanes for the farms to which they lead likely
                  echoing usage at the time. In another place Carman mentions a
                  "stock lane" which implies only a cattle path rather than a
                  "regular" farm lane.

                  Lanes were important as they usually had some type of fencing on
                  either side (as did pikes and other roads) as they traversed
                  various farmers' fields so provided some cover as well as
                  barriers for troop movements. Looks like determining which lanes
                  couriers/cavalry used will be interesting lacking primary
                  sources.

                  Larry

                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                  <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Gerry,
                  >
                  > Looking at the CC maps closely, the spaces between the various
                  > types of fences around fields frequently have a regular dotted
                  > line shown. The map legend doesn't list this symbol so I wonder
                  > if it indicates a farm path. This makes sense as farmers must
                  > get their teams to fields to plow and wagons to harvest crops.
                  > So if many/most of these are wide enough to let a wagon pass,
                  > they are also passable to couriers, etc.?
                  >
                  > Following the Smoketown Rd from the Dunkard Church towards
                  > Smoketown shows that this dotted line splits as it enters the
                  > East Woods and connects the parts of the road. I don't recall
                  > reading comments about this link--anyone have any cites
                  > referencing this connection or helpful statements about farm
                  > lanes? Any thoughts? Or am I just coming late to this
                  > realization about lanes = regular dotted lines?
                  >
                  >
                  > Larry
                • cowie_steve
                  Gerry, IIRC, Harsh describes a northbound river road leading to New Industry that is cloaked from Federal view by Nicodemus Heights and a series of small,
                  Message 8 of 9 , Mar 17, 2009
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                    Gerry,

                    IIRC, Harsh describes a northbound "river road" leading to New Industry that is cloaked from Federal view by Nicodemus Heights and a series of small, disconnected ridges. This was the same route taken by Stuart on the afternoon of the 17th when Pelham "stirred up" the Federal right artillery.

                    Steve



                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Larry,
                    >
                    > I know that Lee would not have wanted to take Smoketown
                    > Road...too close to Antietam Creek area. I was more interested in
                    > what road would have been between the banks of the Potomac River
                    > and the Hagerstown Pike. I am sure there was some sort of road
                    > net that would eventually have enabled the ANVa to get up to
                    > Hagerstown...or at least Williamsport.
                    >
                    > As to your other, send Brian our moderator a private email and
                    > see if he would be willing to accept the document. If you would
                    > like to send it entire to me offline, please feel free to do so.
                    >
                    > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                    >
                    > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                    > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                    > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 6:45 PM
                    > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: queston about parallel routes to
                    > Hagerstown Turnpike north from Sharpsburg
                    >
                    >
                    > Gerry,
                    >
                    > Harsh's main source for this story appears to be W.W. Blackford,
                    > "War Years with Jeb Stuart, 148-9. Von Borcke isn't too much help
                    > and neither is Carman.
                    >
                    > Of course the most likely road is the Hagerstown Pike as the
                    > Landing Road I think is too far west. I also don't think the
                    > Smoketown Rd is a good candidate since later in the day on the
                    > 16th the Unionists were there at least on much of it towards the
                    > north. I just can't see other good routes north.
                    >
                    > Another interesting question is where did the Blackford incident
                    > take place? My estimation is that it does so later in the
                    > afternoon with pickets of Doubleday's division near the
                    > Hagerstown Pike. I'd like to get your comments on that if you
                    > wouldn't mind reading something I wrote that is probably too long
                    > for this post. I can PM you with it if you wish or post it here.
                    >
                    > Larry
                    >
                    > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > All,
                    > >
                    > > Harsh mentions in his chapter on September 16 that Stuart was
                    > > given a mission during the mid to late morning of that day by
                    > > Lee
                    > > to ascertain parallel routes of advance from Sharpsburg up
                    > > towards Hagerstown; routes that would help the ANVa if it was
                    > > able to escape the box McClellan was forming around it to the
                    > > west. We all know that Hooker's advance pretty much shut that
                    > > door.
                    > >
                    > > However, IIRC Harsh does not specify which routes Stuart found
                    > > that possibly could have aided the ANVa in marching north
                    > > towards
                    > > Hagerstown from Sharpsburg and hopefully resuming the campaign
                    > > and then being able to offer battle to the AoP on conditions
                    > > favorable to the ANVa rather than the AoP.
                    > >
                    > > Does any one know which routes Stuart discovered, the names of
                    > > the roads, etc that he would have reported via courier from his
                    > > HQ at the Dunkard Church back to Lee at the Grove House in
                    > > town?
                    > >
                    > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                    > >
                    > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                    > > from
                    > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    > >
                    >
                  • Thomas Clemens
                    I think what Gerry is talking about is the road now known as Mondell road and then Taylor s Landing Road which led to the aforementioned site on the Potomac.
                    Message 9 of 9 , Mar 17, 2009
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                      I think what Gerry is talking about is the road now known as Mondell road and then Taylor's Landing Road which led to the aforementioned site on the Potomac. From there a road led along the banks for some distance and roads branching off that led back to the Pike and others to the Boonsboro - Williamsport road. It shows on local maps and the names are not mentioned, thus I am using modern names. It was Harsh's opinion that the "Cox Farm expedition" was an attempt to see if that road was usable to evacuate the army northward toward Hagerstown.


                      Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                      Professor of History
                      Hagerstown Community College




                      >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 3/17/2009 8:22 AM >>>

                      I should have looked at Carman more closely; he says about the Antietam battlefield "The turnpike, country roads, and farm lanes gave ready access to all parts of the field upon which, save along the banks of the Antietam itself, there were no obstacles to the movement of troops and but few to the passage of artillery." Later he mentions "farm lanes" in several places. He often names the lanes for the farms to which they lead likely echoing usage at the time. In another place Carman mentions a "stock lane" which implies only a cattle path rather than a "regular" farm lane.

                      Lanes were important as they usually had some type of fencing on either side (as did pikes and other roads) as they traversed various farmers' fields so provided some cover as well as barriers for troop movements. Looks like determining which lanes couriers/cavalry used will be interesting lacking primary sources.

                      Larry

                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Gerry,
                      >
                      > Looking at the CC maps closely, the spaces between the various types of fences around fields frequently have a regular dotted line shown. The map legend doesn't list this symbol so I wonder if it indicates a farm path. This makes sense as farmers must get their teams to fields to plow and wagons to harvest crops. So if many/most of these are wide enough to let a wagon pass, they are also passable to couriers, etc.?
                      >
                      > Following the Smoketown Rd from the Dunkard Church towards Smoketown shows that this dotted line splits as it enters the East Woods and connects the parts of the road. I don't recall reading comments about this link--anyone have any cites referencing this connection or helpful statements about farm lanes? Any thoughts? Or am I just coming late to this realization about lanes = regular dotted lines?
                      >
                      >
                      > Larry




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