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Re: [TalkAntietam] Joseph L. Harsh's Books

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  • NJ Rebel
    Todd; Good points! Sears might, I have to agree, if he approached Mac the way Harsh will, indeed conclude Mac was not up to the overall task at hand. However,
    Message 1 of 14 , Mar 13, 2002
      Todd;

      Good points! Sears might, I have to agree, if he approached Mac
      the way Harsh will, indeed conclude Mac was not up to the overall
      task at hand. However, Joe Harsh is more than willing to let the
      knowledge of what his subject knew at the time guide how he
      (Harsh) writes about his subject. Sears lets all the accumulated
      baggage of the last nearly 150 years influence what he wants to
      write.... a temptingly easy thing to do. In my book Harsh is the
      better historian due to his pains to accurately seek out sources
      that indicate what Lee knew and when did he know it as opposed to
      the Monday morning QB we have all become so used to....

      Your humble servant,
      Gerry Mayers
      Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
      Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry

      A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

      "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
      on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
      Edward Lee


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "TR Livesey" <tlivesey@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 8:28 PM
      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Joseph L. Harsh's Books


      > Gerry,
      >
      > I would say that if we gave Sears the benefit of the
      > doubt, he examined Mac's leadership ability and concluded
      > that he wasn't up to the task.
      >
      > What is fresh and original about Harsh's work, is that he
      > examines actions and reactions of his subject based on what
      > that person knew at the time. This is where Sears is lacking.
      > While we all can examine the strategic and tactical situations
      > with 20/20 hindsight, Lee and Mac could base their decisions
      > on what they knew at that moment, which naturally can be rather
      > limited. While Harsh very carefully isolates what Lee knew
      > from what we all know now in order to make his analysis of
      > Lee, Sears makes no attempt to do so (for Lee or Mac);
      everything
      > that has been learned and discovered in the last 140 years can
      > and will be held against you, in Sears's analysis.
      >
      > Regards,
      > TR Livesey
      > tlivesey@...
      >
      > NJ Rebel wrote:
      > >
      > > Jeff,
      > >
      > > What I was trying to point out was that Joe Harsh was going
      to be
      > > a fair examiner of Little Mac, unlike Sears who makes no
      bones
      > > about his virulent dislike of the man.
      > >
      > > If you have read his works on Lee and the Maryland Campaign,
      you
      > > will know that Harsh commends Lee when and where the
      situation
      > > calls for it and damns Lee when the situation calls for it.
      That
      > > is what I call fairness.....
      > >
      > > Your humble servant,
      > > Gerry Mayers
      > > Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
      > > Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry
      > >
      > > A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!
      > >
      > > "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the
      field
      > > on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General
      Robert
      > > Edward Lee
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: "Jeff Beckner (PWC Magazine)" <jbeckner@...>
      > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 9:31 AM
      > > Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Joseph L. Harsh's Books
      > >
      > > > Now hang on a minute....
      > > >
      > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > From: NJ Rebel [mailto:gerry1952@...]
      > > > Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 10:58 PM
      > > > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Joseph L. Harsh's Books
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > James,
      > > >
      > > > Actually Harsh really does not talk about Mac that much in
      both
      > > > books. He focuses on Lee.
      > > >
      > > > But Harsh is not really a fan of Mac either..... but he
      will do
      > > a
      > > > better job with Mac in his next books then Stephen Sears
      > > does....
      > > >
      > > > Your humble servant,
      > > > Gerry Mayers
      > > > Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
      > > > Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry
      > > >
      > > > A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!
      > > >
      > > > "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the
      field
      > > > on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General
      Robert
      > > > Edward Lee
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > From: "james2044" <james2044@...>
      > > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      > > > Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 8:11 PM
      > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Joseph L. Harsh's Books
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > Has anyone read "Confederate Tide Rising" and/or "Taken
      at
      > > the
      > > > > Flood"? I've read both and he makes a good case that
      McCellan
      > > > did not
      > > > > do such a bad job at Antietam. Some of the points made
      agree
      > > > with
      > > > > ideas I've picked up from reading other accounts of this
      > > > battle. Any
      > > > > comments?
      > > > >
      > > > > James
      > > > >
      > > > >
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    • tony
      Gerry, Tom, et. al... Pardon my aging memory, but when is Dr. Harsh s anticipated publication date for his next book on the battle, taken as I understand it
      Message 2 of 14 , Mar 14, 2002
        Gerry, Tom, et. al...

        Pardon my aging memory, but when is Dr. Harsh's anticipated publication date
        for his next book on the battle, taken as I understand it from McClellan's
        viewpoint?

        Some questions I hope he gets into:

        1. Who of Mac's direct reports -- if any -- had his ear?
        2. What discussions did Mac have with his subordinates that have not
        appeared in previous books about the battle?
        3. What were Mac's expressed expectations of the many spanking, new (green)
        regiments the AoP had just acquired?
        4. What, if anything, might Mac have said about Lee, Jackson and
        Longstreet -- their military mentalities and abilities -- before the battle?
        5. What did he write or say after the battle about the apparent failure of
        the AoP to execute a coordinated attack as originally planned?

        Tom, if you can answer these yourself and Dr. Harsh doesn't, maybe you
        should write the book. :-)

        Tony Turner
      • NJ Rebel
        James; Joe Harsh is working on a series of book that will examine Mac in the same manner in which he examined Lee and the overall Confederate strategy in his
        Message 3 of 14 , Mar 14, 2002
          James;

          Joe Harsh is working on a series of book that will examine Mac in
          the same manner in which he examined Lee and the overall
          Confederate strategy in his books Confederate Tide Rising, Taken
          at the Flood and Sounding the Shallows.

          The Mac books should cause many to re-examine their views of this
          much maligned Union general.

          Your humble servant,
          Gerry Mayers
          Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
          Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry

          A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

          "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
          on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
          Edward Lee


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "james2044" <james2044@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 9:43 PM
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Joseph L. Harsh's Books


          > Having 1st read Sears, the Harsh books showed me where and why
          > McCellan's decisions were logical and given what he knew, most
          often
          > correct. His look at the lost order, the overall battle plan
          and the
          > information given showed a different General than I'ld seen.
          >
          > Yes, Lee is the major part of the book but his handling of
          McCellan
          > is interesting.
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • Teej Smith
          ... Gerry, Are these book or books going to cover more than Antietam? I d love to hear his take on Mac s behavior on the peninsula (specifically the Seven
          Message 4 of 14 , Mar 14, 2002
            > James;
            >
            > Joe Harsh is working on a series of book that will examine Mac in
            > the same manner in which he examined Lee and the overall
            > Confederate strategy in his books Confederate Tide Rising, Taken
            > at the Flood and Sounding the Shallows.
            >
            > The Mac books should cause many to re-examine their views of this
            > much maligned Union general.

            Gerry,

            Are these book or books going to cover more than Antietam? I'd love to
            hear his take on Mac's behavior on the peninsula (specifically the Seven
            Days) and whether he deliberately dragged his feet in supporting Pope.

            Regards,
            Teej
          • NJ Rebel
            TJ: While Tom Clemens can, IIRC, shed more light on this, those of us at the ADG III Muster last year who had the esteemed honor of meeting Joe Harsh heard him
            Message 5 of 14 , Mar 14, 2002
              TJ:

              While Tom Clemens can, IIRC, shed more light on this, those of us
              at the ADG III Muster last year who had the esteemed honor of
              meeting Joe Harsh heard him say that his books on Mac will
              examine the entire structure of the Union military organization
              and how Mac became involved with the creation of the AoP. I do
              believe that since he covered Lee during the Peninsula Campaign
              in Confederate Tide Rising, he will also cover Mac during that
              same time period.

              I for one can hardly wait...... to see what he comes up
              with........

              Your humble servant,
              Gerry Mayers
              Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
              Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry

              A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

              "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
              on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
              Edward Lee


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Teej Smith" <teej@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 8:37 PM
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Joseph L. Harsh's Books


              >
              >
              >
              >
              > > James;
              > >
              > > Joe Harsh is working on a series of book that will examine
              Mac in
              > > the same manner in which he examined Lee and the overall
              > > Confederate strategy in his books Confederate Tide Rising,
              Taken
              > > at the Flood and Sounding the Shallows.
              > >
              > > The Mac books should cause many to re-examine their views of
              this
              > > much maligned Union general.
              >
              > Gerry,
              >
              > Are these book or books going to cover more than Antietam?
              I'd love to
              > hear his take on Mac's behavior on the peninsula (specifically
              the Seven
              > Days) and whether he deliberately dragged his feet in
              supporting Pope.
              >
              > Regards,
              > Teej
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
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            • Jeff Beckner (PWC Magazine)
              You left out and justly between much and maligned! ... From: NJ Rebel [mailto:gerry1952@fast.net] Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 6:46 PM To:
              Message 6 of 14 , Mar 15, 2002
                You left out "and justly" between "much" and "maligned!"

                -----Original Message-----
                From: NJ Rebel [mailto:gerry1952@...]
                Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 6:46 PM
                To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Joseph L. Harsh's Books


                James;

                Joe Harsh is working on a series of book that will examine Mac in
                the same manner in which he examined Lee and the overall
                Confederate strategy in his books Confederate Tide Rising, Taken
                at the Flood and Sounding the Shallows.

                The Mac books should cause many to re-examine their views of this
                much maligned Union general.

                Your humble servant,
                Gerry Mayers
                Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
                Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry

                A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

                "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
                on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
                Edward Lee


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "james2044" <james2044@...>
                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 9:43 PM
                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Joseph L. Harsh's Books


                > Having 1st read Sears, the Harsh books showed me where and why
                > McCellan's decisions were logical and given what he knew, most
                often
                > correct. His look at the lost order, the overall battle plan
                and the
                > information given showed a different General than I'ld seen.
                >
                > Yes, Lee is the major part of the book but his handling of
                McCellan
                > is interesting.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
                Sponsor ---------------------~-->
                > Access Your PC from Anywhere
                > Check Email & Transfer files - Free Download
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                ------~->
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                >
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                >
                >






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              • NJ Rebel
                Jeff; I stand by my comments. I will reserve the use of the words you have mentioned until such time as I read what Harsh has to say. I do realize that Sears
                Message 7 of 14 , Mar 15, 2002
                  Jeff;

                  I stand by my comments. I will reserve the use of the words you
                  have mentioned until such time as I read what Harsh has to say. I
                  do realize that Sears has a very strong bias against Mac; to me
                  that makes what he writes somewhat suspect.

                  No, I am _not_ a Mac fan, but have come to realize there is more
                  to Mac than the usual tar and feather approach employed to
                  describe/discuss/write regarding him.

                  Your humble servant,
                  Gerry Mayers
                  Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
                  Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry

                  A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

                  "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
                  on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
                  Edward Lee


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Jeff Beckner (PWC Magazine)" <jbeckner@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 9:15 AM
                  Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: Joseph L. Harsh's Books


                  > You left out "and justly" between "much" and "maligned!"
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: NJ Rebel [mailto:gerry1952@...]
                  > Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2002 6:46 PM
                  > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Joseph L. Harsh's Books
                  >
                  >
                  > James;
                  >
                  > Joe Harsh is working on a series of book that will examine Mac
                  in
                  > the same manner in which he examined Lee and the overall
                  > Confederate strategy in his books Confederate Tide Rising,
                  Taken
                  > at the Flood and Sounding the Shallows.
                  >
                  > The Mac books should cause many to re-examine their views of
                  this
                  > much maligned Union general.
                  >
                  > Your humble servant,
                  > Gerry Mayers
                  > Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
                  > Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry
                  >
                  > A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!
                  >
                  > "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
                  > on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
                  > Edward Lee
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "james2044" <james2044@...>
                  > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 9:43 PM
                  > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Joseph L. Harsh's Books
                  >
                  >
                  > > Having 1st read Sears, the Harsh books showed me where and
                  why
                  > > McCellan's decisions were logical and given what he knew,
                  most
                  > often
                  > > correct. His look at the lost order, the overall battle plan
                  > and the
                  > > information given showed a different General than I'ld seen.
                  > >
                  > > Yes, Lee is the major part of the book but his handling of
                  > McCellan
                  > > is interesting.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
                  > Sponsor ---------------------~-->
                  > > Access Your PC from Anywhere
                  > > Check Email & Transfer files - Free Download
                  > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/NxtVhB/3XkDAA/_ZuFAA/GmiolB/TM
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                  > ------~->
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                • Tom Clemens
                  Tony, Joe Harsh is still in the process of writing, so it will be some time yet before anything appears. He is projecting five volumes at this time, subject
                  Message 8 of 14 , Mar 15, 2002
                    Tony,
                    Joe Harsh is still in the process of writing, so it will be some time yet before
                    anything appears. He is projecting five volumes at this time, subject to change
                    of course. I am sure he will answer all of those questions and more.
                    He relied on a few trusted commanders who, IMHO, let him down, principally
                    Porter and Franklin. He thought a lot of Burnside, at least for a while, and
                    was impressed with Hooker, even though Hooker bad-mouthed him, Mac recommeded
                    him for a promotion.
                    A lot of individual disccussions, but nothing like a preliminary briefing, a
                    critical error that was repeated throughout theCivil War.
                    I don't know, Joe might
                    ditto
                    He thought he won, ie. Lee retreated abandoning wounded etc. Was pleased at
                    fulfilling Lincoln's orders, and proud of his ersatz army.
                    Joe will be far more detailed and eloquent.


                    tony wrote:

                    > Gerry, Tom, et. al...
                    >
                    > Pardon my aging memory, but when is Dr. Harsh's anticipated publication date
                    > for his next book on the battle, taken as I understand it from McClellan's
                    > viewpoint?
                    >
                    > Some questions I hope he gets into:
                    >
                    > 1. Who of Mac's direct reports -- if any -- had his ear?
                    > 2. What discussions did Mac have with his subordinates that have not
                    > appeared in previous books about the battle?
                    > 3. What were Mac's expressed expectations of the many spanking, new (green)
                    > regiments the AoP had just acquired?
                    > 4. What, if anything, might Mac have said about Lee, Jackson and
                    > Longstreet -- their military mentalities and abilities -- before the battle?
                    > 5. What did he write or say after the battle about the apparent failure of
                    > the AoP to execute a coordinated attack as originally planned?
                    >
                    > Tom, if you can answer these yourself and Dr. Harsh doesn't, maybe you
                    > should write the book. :-)
                    >
                    > Tony Turner
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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