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Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: While we're talking about gaps and roads...

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  • G E Mayers
    Bill, If I might add... IIRC some of the road names today ... if they substantially follow the original road beds... may have different names than back then.
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 4, 2009
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      Bill,

      If I might add... IIRC some of the road names today ... if they
      substantially follow the original road beds... may have different
      names than back then. Also, is today's Reno Monument Road same as
      the original Old Sharpsburg Road that goes up to and over Fox's
      Gap?

      Also, did today's Dahlgren Road have a different name, if it
      existed, back in the 1860s?

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Bill and Glenna Jo Christen" <gwjchris@...>
      To: <talkantietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 10:05 PM
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: While we're talking about gaps and
      roads...


      > Tom,
      >
      > I just consulted my copy of the two original South Mountain
      > maps that became the single plate for South Mountain reference
      > in the OR Atlas (I had them made at the National Archives in
      > the Eighties).
      >
      > Yes, the a road to the Mt. Tabor Church comes in to the
      > National Pike at Bolivar. However, it is the Old Sharpsburg
      > Road that leaves the National Pike at Catoctin Creek.
      >
      > There is a road from Frostown to the Mountain House (enters
      > just below as Carman states). There is a road that goes
      > north-northeast from Frostown that turns abruptly northwest and
      > then again to the southwest. It goes to Zittlesville. From
      > Frostown there is also a road that goes to the Mt.Tabor Church.
      > At Mt. Tabor church this road (not the one to Bolivar)
      > continues to the south east and eventually a branch to this
      > road connects to the National Pike--also at Catoctin Creek by
      > the Koogle farm. (east of the bridge). Perhaps this is where
      > you made the connection to Catoctin Creek.
      >
      > I am not sure which combination of these roads (north of the
      > National Pike) actually made up the Old Hagerstown Road in
      > 1862. The Old Sharpsburg Road met the Bolivar Road at Menzer's
      > saw mill and went up to Fox's Gap.
      >
      > Bill Christen
      >
    • eighth_conn_inf
      Bill, The atlas map, plate 27, 3, and the surveyed 1858 Frederick County map look to my old eyes as virtually identical. I can even see some of the name of
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 5, 2009
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        Bill,

        The atlas map, plate 27, 3, and the surveyed 1858 Frederick County map look to my old eyes as virtually identical. I can even see some of the name of families that are the same. I wonder when the atlas map was drawn, do you have any info--was it during the war or after?

        I see that on the 1858 map the roads south of the National Pike where the Old Hagerstown are differently placed noticably from Bolivar on the National Pike to the Old Sharpsburg Rd and also the roadto the west south of the Pike. Apparenly there were road improvements between 1858 and when the atlas map was drawn as the newer map shows improved road alignments.

        Also, the 1858 map shows "Bolivar" near Fox's Gap rather than on the National Pike--interesting. Bottom line is that there are two apparently good maps available for that area but for the slight changes that the four or five years brought.Did you have your atlas map enlarged or is it the same size as in the atlas?

        Larry

        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Bill and Glenna Jo Christen" <gwjchris@...> wrote:
        >
        > Tom,
        >
        > I just consulted my copy of the two original South Mountain maps that became the single plate for South Mountain reference in the OR Atlas (I had them made at the National Archives in the Eighties).
        >
        > Yes, the a road to the Mt. Tabor Church comes in to the National Pike at Bolivar. However, it is the Old Sharpsburg Road that leaves the National Pike at Catoctin Creek.
        >
        > There is a road from Frostown to the Mountain House (enters just below as Carman states). There is a road that goes north-northeast from Frostown that turns abruptly northwest and then again to the southwest. It goes to Zittlesville. From Frostown there is also a road that goes to the Mt.Tabor Church. At Mt. Tabor church this road (not the one to Bolivar) continues to the south east and eventually a branch to this road connects to the National Pike--also at Catoctin Creek by the Koogle farm. (east of the bridge). Perhaps this is where you made the connection to Catoctin Creek.
        >
        > I am not sure which combination of these roads (north of the National Pike) actually made up the Old Hagerstown Road in 1862. The Old Sharpsburg Road met the Bolivar Road at Menzer's saw mill and went up to Fox's Gap.
        >
        > Bill Christen
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > Tom wrote:
        > It is my impression that Old Hagerstown Road left the National Road at Catoctin Creek west of Middletown. It is Mt. tabor Church that connects to Bolivar, isn't it? Anyone with old maps, can you confirm this? Also, the description of what is now the Dahlgren Road re-entering the National Road at the chapel seems wrong to me. I thought the Old Hag Rd went through Frosttown Gap and down through Zittlestown. Again, anyone with an old map, what does it show?
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Thomas Clemens
        On the 1858 Isaac Bond map of Frederick County, (link provided by Larry & Steve, thank you) there is a road that intersects withte National Pike at Catoctin
        Message 3 of 22 , Mar 5, 2009
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          On the 1858 Isaac Bond map of Frederick County, (link provided by Larry & Steve, thank you) there is a road that intersects withte National Pike at Catoctin Creek west of Middletown. It head roughly northwest, passes west of Bealsville and runs through Myersville to the summit of South Mt. I can make out as a name of the road, look closely please, "Old" then a bit closer to Middletown "illegible - town" and then closer still to Middletown "Road" In modern terms the road I just described is labeled Old Hagerstown Road and runs into the Myersville road just short of Myersville. That is a long way away from what we now call Dahlgren road and what Carman called the Old Hagerstown Road. In short, I think Carman is wrong.
          The problems are I do not know if (a) there might be more than one OHR in 1862; and (b) I do not know what to call Dahlgren road before it was given that name postwar; and (c) how can the OHR branch off at Bolivar if it is running from Middletown to Myersville? No label on the 1858 Bond map for modern Dahlgren or Mt. Tabor Church roads.
          Hmm.

          Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          Professor of History
          Hagerstown Community College


          >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 03/05/09 9:25 AM >>>
          Bill,

          The atlas map, plate 27, 3, and the surveyed 1858 Frederick County map look to my old eyes as virtually identical. I can even see some of the name of families that are the same. I wonder when the atlas map was drawn, do you have any info--was it during the war or after?

          I see that on the 1858 map the roads south of the National Pike where the Old Hagerstown are differently placed noticably from Bolivar on the National Pike to the Old Sharpsburg Rd and also the roadto the west south of the Pike. Apparenly there were road improvements between 1858 and when the atlas map was drawn as the newer map shows improved road alignments.

          Also, the 1858 map shows "Bolivar" near Fox's Gap rather than on the National Pike--interesting. Bottom line is that there are two apparently good maps available for that area but for the slight changes that the four or five years brought.Did you have your atlas map enlarged or is it the same size as in the atlas?

          Larry

          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Bill and Glenna Jo Christen" <gwjchris@...> wrote:
          >
          > Tom,
          >
          > I just consulted my copy of the two original South Mountain maps that became the single plate for South Mountain reference in the OR Atlas (I had them made at the National Archives in the Eighties).
          >
          > Yes, the a road to the Mt. Tabor Church comes in to the National Pike at Bolivar. However, it is the Old Sharpsburg Road that leaves the National Pike at Catoctin Creek.
          >
          > There is a road from Frostown to the Mountain House (enters just below as Carman states). There is a road that goes north-northeast from Frostown that turns abruptly northwest and then again to the southwest. It goes to Zittlesville. From Frostown there is also a road that goes to the Mt.Tabor Church. At Mt. Tabor church this road (not the one to Bolivar) continues to the south east and eventually a branch to this road connects to the National Pike--also at Catoctin Creek by the Koogle farm. (east of the bridge). Perhaps this is where you made the connection to Catoctin Creek.
          >
          > I am not sure which combination of these roads (north of the National Pike) actually made up the Old Hagerstown Road in 1862. The Old Sharpsburg Road met the Bolivar Road at Menzer's saw mill and went up to Fox's Gap.
          >
          > Bill Christen
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > Tom wrote:
          > It is my impression that Old Hagerstown Road left the National Road at Catoctin Creek west of Middletown. It is Mt. tabor Church that connects to Bolivar, isn't it? Anyone with old maps, can you confirm this? Also, the description of what is now the Dahlgren Road re-entering the National Road at the chapel seems wrong to me. I thought the Old Hag Rd went through Frosttown Gap and down through Zittlestown. Again, anyone with an old map, what does it show?
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Bill and Glenna Jo Christen
          Gerry, Reno Monument Road is the Old Sharpsburg Road. Larry and Tom, The two maps have labeled dates of 14 September 1862, but I think that were drawn after
          Message 4 of 22 , Mar 5, 2009
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            Gerry,

            Reno Monument Road is the Old Sharpsburg Road.

            Larry and Tom,

            The two maps have labeled dates of 14 September 1862, but I think that were drawn after that. There is a note that the maps were "photographed by L. E. Walden of the Treasury Department." They are from RG 77, F91-1 and 91-3. The maps show troop positions at two different times during the battle. The maps are approximately 23 by 28 inches. The maps cover "White Rocks" to "Monument Hill" (south to north) and "Burnt Bridge" at Catoctin Creek to "Boonsborough" in the northwest corner and to the "Road to Rohrersville" in the south west corner (east to west).

            I also have a very small map showing the gaps (without names) in the South Mountain range that was in RG 200, Paine, A-7-11. It does list Federal division commander's names.

            I also have the full-size, uncolored reproduction of the 1858 Frederick County map. The "OR" maps are much more detailed when it comes to the roads. I do have photocopies of an1873 Frederick County map and an earlier, not very detailed map of the area.

            I believe that there was a road that ran from the Mountain House to Frostown (possibly the Dalgren Road today), but that the Old Hagerstown Road left Frostown and continued north and northwest over South Mouton and rejoined the National Road at Zittlesville.

            Bill Christen

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Thomas Clemens
            Bill, What you state seems to be the consensus, thus there must be two OHRs? The one running from Burnt Bridge at Middletown to Myersville and beyond to
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 5, 2009
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              Bill,
              What you state seems to be the consensus, thus there must be two OHRs? The one running from
              Burnt Bridge" at Middletown to Myersville and beyond to Orr's Gap had the "semi-official" label on the 1858 Bond map, but doesn't run anywhere near Turner's Gap nor Zittlestown.


              Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              Professor of History
              Hagerstown Community College


              >>> "Bill and Glenna Jo Christen" <gwjchris@...> 03/05/09 1:40 PM >>>
              Gerry,

              Reno Monument Road is the Old Sharpsburg Road.

              Larry and Tom,

              The two maps have labeled dates of 14 September 1862, but I think that were drawn after that. There is a note that the maps were "photographed by L. E. Walden of the Treasury Department." They are from RG 77, F91-1 and 91-3. The maps show troop positions at two different times during the battle. The maps are approximately 23 by 28 inches. The maps cover "White Rocks" to "Monument Hill" (south to north) and "Burnt Bridge" at Catoctin Creek to "Boonsborough" in the northwest corner and to the "Road to Rohrersville" in the south west corner (east to west).

              I also have a very small map showing the gaps (without names) in the South Mountain range that was in RG 200, Paine, A-7-11. It does list Federal division commander's names.

              I also have the full-size, uncolored reproduction of the 1858 Frederick County map. The "OR" maps are much more detailed when it comes to the roads. I do have photocopies of an1873 Frederick County map and an earlier, not very detailed map of the area.

              I believe that there was a road that ran from the Mountain House to Frostown (possibly the Dalgren Road today), but that the Old Hagerstown Road left Frostown and continued north and northwest over South Mouton and rejoined the National Road at Zittlesville.

              Bill Christen

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • eighth_conn_inf
              Tom, I looked at the spot blown up on the LOC map and there appears to be an H just above the intersection just south of the name Myersville. Below the
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 5, 2009
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                Tom,

                I looked at the spot blown up on the LOC map and there appears to be an "H" just above the intersection just south of the name "Myersville." Below the intersection below a capital "M" looks like an "a." Further on down there is clearly an "rs" with the top half of a faint "e" in front of the "rs." Apparently the "g" got lost among the three buildings between the "a" and "e." The printed map surprisingly confirms this. Looking at GoogleEarth, the current Old Hagerstown Rd seems to follow the old one at least from the National Pike to Myersville.

                Since the only letter that is not identifiable is the "g" and we have all the rest, I agree that the 1858 Bond map shows that is the "Old Hagerstown Road." But for CW era names of other county roads, maybe there is someone at the Historical Society of Frederick County who is an expert or perhaps someone in Middletown? I have questions into MD DNR and other folks but no replies yet.
                Larry

                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
                >
                > On the 1858 Isaac Bond map of Frederick County, (link provided by Larry & Steve, thank you) there is a road that intersects withte National Pike at Catoctin Creek west of Middletown. It head roughly northwest, passes west of Bealsville and runs through Myersville to the summit of South Mt. I can make out as a name of the road, look closely please, "Old" then a bit closer to Middletown "illegible - town" and then closer still to Middletown "Road" In modern terms the road I just described is labeled Old Hagerstown Road and runs into the Myersville road just short of Myersville. That is a long way away from what we now call Dahlgren road and what Carman called the Old Hagerstown Road. In short, I think Carman is wrong.
                > The problems are I do not know if (a) there might be more than one OHR in 1862; and (b) I do not know what to call Dahlgren road before it was given that name postwar; and (c) how can the OHR branch off at Bolivar if it is running from Middletown to Myersville? No label on the 1858 Bond map for modern Dahlgren or Mt. Tabor Church roads.
                > Hmm.
                >
                > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                > Professor of History
                > Hagerstown Community College
                >
                >
                > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 03/05/09 9:25 AM >>>
                > Bill,
                >
                > The atlas map, plate 27, 3, and the surveyed 1858 Frederick County map look to my old eyes as virtually identical. I can even see some of the name of families that are the same. I wonder when the atlas map was drawn, do you have any info--was it during the war or after?
                >
                > I see that on the 1858 map the roads south of the National Pike where the Old Hagerstown are differently placed noticably from Bolivar on the National Pike to the Old Sharpsburg Rd and also the roadto the west south of the Pike. Apparenly there were road improvements between 1858 and when the atlas map was drawn as the newer map shows improved road alignments.
                >
                > Also, the 1858 map shows "Bolivar" near Fox's Gap rather than on the National Pike--interesting. Bottom line is that there are two apparently good maps available for that area but for the slight changes that the four or five years brought.Did you have your atlas map enlarged or is it the same size as in the atlas?
                >
                > Larry
              • eighth_conn_inf
                Just noticed that the detail map of Myersville in the upper left of Bond to the right of the map title show the OHR goes thru that town. Larry
                Message 7 of 22 , Mar 5, 2009
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                  Just noticed that the detail map of Myersville in the upper left of Bond to the right of the map title show the OHR goes thru that town.
                  Larry

                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Tom,
                  >
                  > I looked at the spot blown up on the LOC map and there appears to be an "H" just above the intersection just south of the name "Myersville." Below the intersection below a capital "M" looks like an "a." Further on down there is clearly an "rs" with the top half of a faint "e" in front of the "rs." Apparently the "g" got lost among the three buildings between the "a" and "e." The printed map surprisingly confirms this. Looking at GoogleEarth, the current Old Hagerstown Rd seems to follow the old one at least from the National Pike to Myersville.
                  >
                  > Since the only letter that is not identifiable is the "g" and we have all the rest, I agree that the 1858 Bond map shows that is the "Old Hagerstown Road." But for CW era names of other county roads, maybe there is someone at the Historical Society of Frederick County who is an expert or perhaps someone in Middletown? I have questions into MD DNR and other folks but no replies yet.
                  > Larry
                • eighth_conn_inf
                  Bill, I saw similar maps on LOC dated 1872 but it isn t clear to me if that is when it was created or printed. Digital ID (Copy 1) g3844b cw0259000
                  Message 8 of 22 , Mar 5, 2009
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                    Bill,

                    I saw similar maps on LOC dated 1872 but it isn't clear to me if that is when it was created or printed.

                    Digital ID
                    (Copy 1) g3844b cw0259000 http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.gmd/g3844b.cw0259000

                    Digital ID
                    (Copy 1) g3844b cw0258000 http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.gmd/g3844b.cw0258000


                    Larry



                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Bill and Glenna Jo Christen" <gwjchris@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Gerry,
                    >
                    > Reno Monument Road is the Old Sharpsburg Road.
                    >
                    > Larry and Tom,
                    >
                    > The two maps have labeled dates of 14 September 1862, but I think that were drawn after that. There is a note that the maps were "photographed by L. E. Walden of the Treasury Department." They are from RG 77, F91-1 and 91-3. The maps show troop positions at two different times during the battle. The maps are approximately 23 by 28 inches. The maps cover "White Rocks" to "Monument Hill" (south to north) and "Burnt Bridge" at Catoctin Creek to "Boonsborough" in the northwest corner and to the "Road to Rohrersville" in the south west corner (east to west).
                    >
                    > I also have a very small map showing the gaps (without names) in the South Mountain range that was in RG 200, Paine, A-7-11. It does list Federal division commander's names.
                    >
                    > I also have the full-size, uncolored reproduction of the 1858 Frederick County map. The "OR" maps are much more detailed when it comes to the roads. I do have photocopies of an1873 Frederick County map and an earlier, not very detailed map of the area.
                    >
                    > I believe that there was a road that ran from the Mountain House to Frostown (possibly the Dalgren Road today), but that the Old Hagerstown Road left Frostown and continued north and northwest over South Mouton and rejoined the National Road at Zittlesville.
                    >
                    > Bill Christen
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Thomas Clemens
                    Larry, Thank you for your work on this and your careful scrutiny of the maps. If, and it is an if, we assume that the OHR goes nowhere near Turner s Gap or
                    Message 9 of 22 , Mar 5, 2009
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                      Larry,
                      Thank you for your work on this and your careful scrutiny of the maps. If, and it is an if, we assume that the OHR goes nowhere near Turner's Gap or Frosttown Gap, what do we do with Carman's statment. John Frye thinks what is Dahlgren Road now was the earliest crossing of the gap, and thus by default classifies as an OHR. But how did Carman know that, and ignore the other? WHere did the idea of this being OHR originate? Are we looking at another "Ripley and Hamburg Pass" situation?


                      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      Professor of History
                      Hagerstown Community College


                      >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 03/05/09 3:02 PM >>>
                      Bill,

                      I saw similar maps on LOC dated 1872 but it isn't clear to me if that is when it was created or printed.

                      Digital ID
                      (Copy 1) g3844b cw0259000 http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.gmd/g3844b.cw0259000

                      Digital ID
                      (Copy 1) g3844b cw0258000 http://hdl.loc.gov/loc.gmd/g3844b.cw0258000


                      Larry



                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Bill and Glenna Jo Christen" <gwjchris@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Gerry,
                      >
                      > Reno Monument Road is the Old Sharpsburg Road.
                      >
                      > Larry and Tom,
                      >
                      > The two maps have labeled dates of 14 September 1862, but I think that were drawn after that. There is a note that the maps were "photographed by L. E. Walden of the Treasury Department." They are from RG 77, F91-1 and 91-3. The maps show troop positions at two different times during the battle. The maps are approximately 23 by 28 inches. The maps cover "White Rocks" to "Monument Hill" (south to north) and "Burnt Bridge" at Catoctin Creek to "Boonsborough" in the northwest corner and to the "Road to Rohrersville" in the south west corner (east to west).
                      >
                      > I also have a very small map showing the gaps (without names) in the South Mountain range that was in RG 200, Paine, A-7-11. It does list Federal division commander's names.
                      >
                      > I also have the full-size, uncolored reproduction of the 1858 Frederick County map. The "OR" maps are much more detailed when it comes to the roads. I do have photocopies of an1873 Frederick County map and an earlier, not very detailed map of the area.
                      >
                      > I believe that there was a road that ran from the Mountain House to Frostown (possibly the Dalgren Road today), but that the Old Hagerstown Road left Frostown and continued north and northwest over South Mouton and rejoined the National Road at Zittlesville.
                      >
                      > Bill Christen
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • eighth_conn_inf
                      Tom, I m hoping the book I have coming, The Braddock expedition and Fox s Gap in Maryland sheds some light on the area. I just looked at the 24 page
                      Message 10 of 22 , Mar 5, 2009
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                        Tom,

                        I'm hoping the book I have coming, "The Braddock expedition and Fox's Gap in Maryland" sheds some light on the area.

                        I just looked at the 24 page introduction to Hamill Kenney's book "The Place Names of Maryland: Their Origin and Meaning," which is really interesting. And after looking at dozens of maps mainly from the LOC and also the CD I have, spelling of names as well as the names themselves in the 1700 and 1800's sometimes defy reason.

                        I see in a book by Karl Raitz, "A Guide to the National Road," that the reason the National Road in that area is often named the National Pike is that the Naional Road between Baltimore and Cumberland was composed of 4 private turnpikes: Baltimore and Frederick Turnpike, Hagerstown and Boonsboro Turnpike, Hagerstown and Conococheague Turnpike, and Cumberland Turnpike. These existed before the National Road was started. The Baltimore-Frederick Tpke organized in 1805 ran from Baltimore to Boonsboro. The Hagerstown and Boonsboro Tpke was the first macadam road in the US built in 1822-23. Lt. JKF Mansfield in 1823 was the first military superintendant of the N Road east from Ohio.

                        Unfortunately not much help on the issues we have been looking at.

                        Larry



                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Larry,
                        > Thank you for your work on this and your careful scrutiny of the maps. If, and it is an if, we assume that the OHR goes nowhere near Turner's Gap or Frosttown Gap, what do we do with Carman's statment. John Frye thinks what is Dahlgren Road now was the earliest crossing of the gap, and thus by default classifies as an OHR. But how did Carman know that, and ignore the other? WHere did the idea of this being OHR originate? Are we looking at another "Ripley and Hamburg Pass" situation?
                        >
                        >
                        > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                        > Professor of History
                        > Hagerstown Community
                      • Thomas Clemens
                        Yes, technically the National Road went from Cumberland westweard as the east portion already existed. Locally the road from Hagerstown to Frederick was
                        Message 11 of 22 , Mar 5, 2009
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                          Yes, technically the National Road went from Cumberland westweard as the east portion already existed. Locally the road from Hagerstown to Frederick was called the Bank Road since a consortium of banks financed its construction and owned it.

                          Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                          Professor of History
                          Hagerstown Community College


                          >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 03/05/09 6:48 PM >>>
                          Tom,

                          I'm hoping the book I have coming, "The Braddock expedition and Fox's Gap in Maryland" sheds some light on the area.

                          I just looked at the 24 page introduction to Hamill Kenney's book "The Place Names of Maryland: Their Origin and Meaning," which is really interesting. And after looking at dozens of maps mainly from the LOC and also the CD I have, spelling of names as well as the names themselves in the 1700 and 1800's sometimes defy reason.

                          I see in a book by Karl Raitz, "A Guide to the National Road," that the reason the National Road in that area is often named the National Pike is that the Naional Road between Baltimore and Cumberland was composed of 4 private turnpikes: Baltimore and Frederick Turnpike, Hagerstown and Boonsboro Turnpike, Hagerstown and Conococheague Turnpike, and Cumberland Turnpike. These existed before the National Road was started. The Baltimore-Frederick Tpke organized in 1805 ran from Baltimore to Boonsboro. The Hagerstown and Boonsboro Tpke was the first macadam road in the US built in 1822-23. Lt. JKF Mansfield in 1823 was the first military superintendant of the N Road east from Ohio.

                          Unfortunately not much help on the issues we have been looking at.

                          Larry



                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Larry,
                          > Thank you for your work on this and your careful scrutiny of the maps. If, and it is an if, we assume that the OHR goes nowhere near Turner's Gap or Frosttown Gap, what do we do with Carman's statment. John Frye thinks what is Dahlgren Road now was the earliest crossing of the gap, and thus by default classifies as an OHR. But how did Carman know that, and ignore the other? WHere did the idea of this being OHR originate? Are we looking at another "Ripley and Hamburg Pass" situation?
                          >
                          >
                          > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                          > Professor of History
                          > Hagerstown Community
                        • Bill and Glenna Jo Christen
                          Larry, What I have are draft (pre-publication) copies of the upper halves of the maps for which you provided links. Bill [Non-text portions of this message
                          Message 12 of 22 , Mar 6, 2009
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                            Larry,

                            What I have are draft (pre-publication) copies of the upper halves of the maps for which you provided links.

                            Bill

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • eighth_conn_inf
                            Thanks Bill, Maybe a guess then is that they were drawn in 1872 based upon OR reports. If this is true, I wonder if the army topos based their maps on the 1858
                            Message 13 of 22 , Mar 6, 2009
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                              Thanks Bill,

                              Maybe a guess then is that they were drawn in 1872 based upon OR reports. If this is true, I wonder if the army topos based their maps on the 1858 map and then modified it to show the 1862 config of the roads since they obviously could not just go other there and survey the area since it had very liked changed from 1862 to 1872. In any event, using the 1858 and the later atlas maps give a good start to understanding the road net.

                              Larry

                              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Bill and Glenna Jo Christen" <gwjchris@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Larry,
                              >
                              > What I have are draft (pre-publication) copies of the upper halves of the maps for which you provided links.
                              >
                              > Bill
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • eighth_conn_inf
                              Tom, I just received and looked thru The Braddock expedition and Fox s Gap in Maryland and it does help. The author shows that the road thru Fox s Gap and
                              Message 14 of 22 , Mar 9, 2009
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                                Tom,

                                I just received and looked thru "The Braddock expedition and Fox's Gap in Maryland" and it does help. The author shows that the road thru Fox's Gap and the road thru Orr's Gap predate the road thru Turner's Pass so the Dahlgren Rd could not be the earliest OHR. I guess at best it was an American Indian trail.

                                He confirms that Orr's Gap is the one the interstate now goes thru. He also shows that "Fox's Gap" and the "Old Sharpsburg Rd" were the correct names during the CW and that Hill's, Stuart's, etc., references to Braddocks' Gap and Braddock's Rd was not in use by Maryland residents at that time. He also implies that the use of "Hamburg Gap" by Ripley et al during the CW was incorrect rather it was Orr's Gap unless my inference is wrong. He also shows that "Braddock's Gap" was used incorrectly for Orr's Gap.

                                I will continue looking thru the book; it is somewhat difficult to easily parse as it contains a lot of original material including surveys and old letters. Another book by Mr. Older may help if anyone has it: "The Land Tracts of the Battlefield of South Mountain: Including Many Other Tracts near the Area from Land Records of Frederick County, Washington County and the Maryland Archives." Perhaps Mr. Older could speak at a SHAF event if he is available?

                                Larry F.

                                > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Larry,
                                > > Thank you for your work on this and your careful scrutiny of the maps. If, and it is an if, we assume that the OHR goes nowhere near Turner's Gap or Frosttown Gap, what do we do with Carman's statment. John Frye thinks what is Dahlgren Road now was the earliest crossing of the gap, and thus by default classifies as an OHR. But how did Carman know that, and ignore the other? WHere did the idea of this being OHR originate? Are we looking at another "Ripley and Hamburg Pass" situation?
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                > > Professor of History
                                > > Hagerstown Community
                                >
                              • Stephen Recker
                                I ve come across two gentlemen that both took photos around Sharpsburg circa 1890: Millard F. Smith b. 26 Nov 1852 d. 12 Nov. 1925 Erasmus M. Garrott, M.D.
                                Message 15 of 22 , Mar 14, 2009
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                                  I've come across two gentlemen that both took photos around Sharpsburg
                                  circa 1890:

                                  Millard F. Smith b. 26 Nov 1852 d. 12 Nov. 1925
                                  Erasmus M. Garrott, M.D. b. 1 Jan 1865 d. 6 Nov 1929

                                  Interestingly, they are buried rather close to each other (and O.T.
                                  Reilly) in Mountain View Cemetery, Sharpsburg.

                                  Anyone know anything about these two? Thanks.

                                  Stephen
                                • msjillm53
                                  ... The name Erasmus Garrott is vaguely familiar in connection with a work-related paper I did a few years ago about smallpox. I went through my notes and
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Mar 15, 2009
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                                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I've come across two gentlemen that both took photos around Sharpsburg
                                    > circa 1890:
                                    >
                                    > Millard F. Smith b. 26 Nov 1852 d. 12 Nov. 1925
                                    > Erasmus M. Garrott, M.D. b. 1 Jan 1865 d. 6 Nov 1929
                                    >
                                    > Interestingly, they are buried rather close to each other (and O.T.
                                    > Reilly) in Mountain View Cemetery, Sharpsburg.
                                    >
                                    > Anyone know anything about these two? Thanks.
                                    >
                                    > Stephen
                                    >

                                    The name Erasmus Garrott is vaguely familiar in connection with a work-related paper I did a few years ago about smallpox. I went through my notes and found the following, an obituary published in the June 18, 1898, edition of the publication Naval and Military Medical Services:

                                    "Dr. Erasmus Garrott, Chief Medical Inspector, Department of Health, City of Chicago, whose death was announced in a recent issue of the BRITISH MEDICAL JOURNAL, was born at Knoxville, Frederick Co., Maryland, in 1836. He graduated at the Medical Department of the University of Maryland in 1856, was an interne in the hospital at Baltimore for a year, and was afterwards in country practice for three years in West Virginia. In 1860 he engaged in practice in the mining town of Central City, Gilpin Co., Colorado. Settling in Chicago in 1873, he at once became connected with public sanitary work during the rebuilding of the city after the great fire of 1871. At this time a great responsibility fell upon the medical profession, because of the increased illness in the city from lack of proper food and shelter. Dr. Garrott was appointed Medical Inspector in 1890, serving the city faithfully more than twenty-one years. Dr. Garrott was wholly wrapped up in his public work, and he was so devoted to duty that he forgot how to take relaxation. He was an acknowledged authority on small-pox, which he fought with unceasing activity. he used to say that the only recognition of his labours he wished to have placed on his tombstone was the legend, 'He Vaccinated.'"

                                    Not "your" Erasmus Garrott, obviously. I didn't do any follow-up on this Dr. Garrott, but "your" Dr. Garrott is undoubtedly related.

                                    Jill Mitchell
                                    Harpers Ferry, WV
                                  • Stephen Recker
                                    Thanks. That s quite a coincidence, such an unusual name and being from MD. Stephen ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Mar 15, 2009
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                                      Thanks. That's quite a coincidence, such an unusual name and being from
                                      MD.

                                      Stephen

                                      On Sunday, March 15, 2009, at 09:49 AM, msjillm53 wrote:
                                      >
                                      > The name Erasmus Garrott is vaguely familiar in connection with a
                                      > work-related paper I did a few years ago about smallpox. I went
                                      > through my notes and found the following, an obituary published in the
                                      > June 18, 1898, edition of the publication Naval and Military Medical
                                      > Services:
                                      >
                                      > "Dr. Erasmus Garrott, Chief Medical Inspector, Department of Health,
                                      > City of Chicago, whose death was announced in a recent issue of the
                                      > BRITISH MEDICAL JOURNAL, was born at Knoxville, Frederick Co.,
                                      > Maryland, in 1836. He graduated at the Medical Department of the
                                      > University of Maryland in 1856, was an interne in the hospital at
                                      > Baltimore for a year, and was afterwards in country practice for three
                                      > years in West Virginia. In 1860 he engaged in practice in the mining
                                      > town of Central City, Gilpin Co., Colorado. Settling in Chicago in
                                      > 1873, he at once became connected with public sanitary work during the
                                      > rebuilding of the city after the great fire of 1871. At this time a
                                      > great responsibility fell upon the medical profession, because of the
                                      > increased illness in the city from lack of proper food and shelter.
                                      > Dr. Garrott was appointed Medical Inspector in 1890, serving the city
                                      > faithfully more than twenty-one years. Dr. Garrott was wholly wrapped
                                      > up in his public work, and he was so devoted to duty that he forgot
                                      > how to take relaxation. He was an acknowledged authority on small-pox,
                                      > which he fought with unceasing activity. he used to say that the only
                                      > recognition of his labours he wished to have placed on his tombstone
                                      > was the legend, 'He Vaccinated.'"
                                      >
                                      > Not "your" Erasmus Garrott, obviously. I didn't do any follow-up on
                                      > this Dr. Garrott, but "your" Dr. Garrott is undoubtedly related.
                                      >
                                      > Jill Mitchell
                                      > Harpers Ferry, WV


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