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Re: Hamburg Passes?

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  • eighth_conn_inf
    Stephen, I know you don t want to keep Tom and I in suspense so is Hamburg Pass only at the town of Hamburg and Orr s Gap the one 3 miles north of Turner s Gap
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 1, 2009
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      Stephen,

      I know you don't want to keep Tom and I in suspense so is Hamburg
      Pass only at the town of Hamburg and Orr's Gap the one 3 miles north
      of Turner's Gap in South Mountain?

      Larry

      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > The best source I have seen for the back-story on South Mountain
      names
      > is Curtis Older's "The Braddock Expedition and Fox's Gap in
      Maryland."
      > I have only found two for sale anywhere, and they were in the
      Frederick
      > County HS book store. I bought one and there was one more left.
      Amazing
      > book. He mentions Hamburg Pass, mostly when referencing D.H. Hill.
      But
      > he puts it in a context that may shed some light. He also mentions
      > Orr's Gap and John Orr.
      >
      > Stephen
      >
      >
      > On Sunday, March 1, 2009, at 12:29 PM, eighth_conn_inf wrote:
      >
      > > Tom,
      > >
      > > Thank you for your insight. I know that since you worked with Dr.
      > > Harsh that you likely knew about this relatively minor point.
      > >
      > > Perhaps someone at the Frederick County HS or Washington County
      might
      > > be able to point me to something.
      > >
      > > In Paula M. Strain's "The Blue Hills of Maryland" she mentions
      > > Hamburg as "a ghost town on top of Catoctin Mountain near Gambrill
      > > State Park. It was never plotted officially but, at late as 1892,
      > > several houses stood near the crossroads. Even earlier, there was
      a
      > > tavern there. Now only the ruins of the Hamburg fire-tower mark
      the
      > > village,"
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Brian Richardson
      Larry - There is a Hamburg Road that intersects Gambrill Park Road about 4 miles north of Route 40 in the Catoctin range. Is that the crossroads that Paula
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 1, 2009
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        Larry -

        There is a Hamburg Road that intersects Gambrill Park Road about 4
        miles north of Route 40 in the Catoctin range. Is that the crossroads
        that Paula Strain refers to? Hamburg Road runs generally southeast
        from there and joins Yellow Springs Road northwest of Frederick.
        There isn't a direct route from the Hamburg Road/Gambrill Park Road
        intersection to Hamburg Pass on South Mountain today. Weather
        permitting I'll go poke around there in the next day or two and let
        you know if I find anything.

        Best regards,

        Brian Richardson



        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
        <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
        >
        > Tom,
        >
        > Thank you for your insight. I know that since you worked with Dr.
        > Harsh that you likely knew about this relatively minor point.
        >
        > Perhaps someone at the Frederick County HS or Washington County
        might
        > be able to point me to something.
        >
        > In Paula M. Strain's "The Blue Hills of Maryland" she mentions
        > Hamburg as "a ghost town on top of Catoctin Mountain near Gambrill
        > State Park. It was never plotted officially but, at late as 1892,
        > several houses stood near the crossroads. Even earlier, there was a
        > tavern there. Now only the ruins of the Hamburg fire-tower mark the
        > village," 272.
        >
        > She also writes about the Hagerstown-Frederick trolley which ran
        thru
        > Myersville then thru S. Mountain at "Orr's Gap" then to what was
        then
        > called Smoketown (now Mt. Lena), 204.
        >
        > She discusses Orr's Gap at some length (201-203) positing that this
        > gap, three miles north Turner's Gap, through a sag between
        Bartman's
        > Hill and Pine Knob, has been known by three names in the last 250
        > years: Orr's Gap, Hamburg Pass, and Trolley-Line Gap. She believes
        > that the Orr's Gap name faded by the time of the CW so the pass was
        > unnamed (by D. H. Hill) or incorrectly named "Hamburg Pass" by
        > Ripley. But she implies that that name stuck since no one disputed
        > it. "Ripley's assignment of the name of a village ten miles east on
        > Catoctin Mountain to little Orr's Gap, has led a number of Civil
        War
        > historians unfamiliar with Maryland to repeat his mistake, making
        > Hamburg Pass the second name Orr's has been called," 201-202.
        >
        > She could not find any reason for the name "Orr" in land records,
        > etc., so she says that is likely why the name faded. As we know,
        the
        > names of places by CW troops unfamiliar with the area can be
        > misleading and almost certainly by spelling. Perhaps here, Ripley
        > talked to a civilian or a soldier familiar with the area and was
        told
        > that the road thru the gap leads to Hamburg so for identification,
        he
        > simply called it Hamburg Pass.
        >
        > Based on her research, I will call it "Orr's Gap" with, of course,
        a
        > footnote re Harsh, Ripley, Carman, and that the road thru there
        also
        > led to Hamburg, among other places east.
        >
        > Larry
        >
        >
        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Larry,
        > > I am aware of the dual usage of Hamburg pass. I cannot say that
        I
        > have anything concrete on the supposition I am about to state, but
        it
        > was the thinking of Joe Harsh when he wrote the book and does make
        a
        > sort of sense. I think the pass in South Mt. is called Hamburg
        pass
        > because it leads to the town of Hamburg, even though it is across
        the
        > valley and on top of Catoctin Mt. It makes sense and if we think
        > about it Brownsville Pass leads across South Mt. to Brownsville;
        the
        > town is not on top of the gap. And yes, it is my understanding
        that
        > it is the gap where I-70 and "new" 40 run across the mountain. I
        > think in the Battlefield Board letters another trooper mentions
        > crossing South Mt. at Hamburg Pass, but I don't havethat in front
        of
        > me right now. I can look it up if you need it.
        > > You're doing good work, and I look forward to seeing it in print
        > sometime soon.
        > >
        > >
        > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        > > Professor of History
        > > Hagerstown Community College
        > >
        > >
        > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@> 02/28/09 4:54 PM >>>
        > > Hamburg was a village in Maryland north of Frederick on top of
        the
        > > Catoctin Mountains through which a road ran. ("OR Atlas" 27, 1)
        > > Carman on p. 175 says that Hamburg Pass is there while Harsh (and
        > > Ripley) say it is about three miles north of Turner's Pass
        through
        > > South Mountain.
        > >
        > > One officer in the 9th Virginia Cavalry, one of F. Lee's
        regiments,
        > > commented that "Hamburg was a rude and scattering village on the
        > > crest of the mountain, where the manufacture of brandy seemed to
        be
        > > the chief employment of the villagers, and at the early hour of
        our
        > > passage through the place, both the men and women gave proof that
        > > they were free imbibers of the product of their stills. It was
        not
        > > easy to find a sober inhabitant of either sex," Beale, "A
        > Lieutenant
        > > Of Cavalry in Lee's Army."
        > >
        > > Harsh discussed Hamburg Pass, "Flood," 248, 257. Did Harsh (or
        > > Carman) confuse the Hamburg Pass in the Catoctin Mountains for a
        > pass
        > > in South Mountain. See Brig. Gen. Ripley's report using "Hamburg
        > > Pass" for the pass north of Boonsboro in South Mountain: "OR,"
        vol.
        > > 19, pt. 1, 1031.
        > >
        > > What seems to be certain that there was then (just a few
        > foundations
        > > remain) a place called Hamburg on Catoctin Mountain through which
        a
        > > road traversed the mountain. It is also certain that there was a
        > pass
        > > some three miles north of Turner's Gap. Was Ripley and therefore
        > > Harsh using Ripley confused or was Carman wrong? Or did a road
        then
        > > run from Hamburg thru the pass in S. Mountain. It is possible
        that
        > > both passes had the same name but that seems very unlikely.
        > >
        > > Is the pass in S. Mountain three miles north of Turner's Gap the
        > one
        > > through which Rt. 40 and I70 are located? Is this pass where the
        > old
        > > stage road from Frederick to Hagerstown passed? IIRC Tom Clemens
        > > mentioned this. I assume that Fitz Lee's troopers used the pass
        in
        > S.
        > > Mountain to get to Boonsboro after leaving Hamburg and I'd like
        to
        > > know its name.
        > >
        > > I appreciate any comments especially referring to sources. Has
        > anyone
        > > been thru Hamburg?
        > >
        > > Larry F.
        > >
        >
      • Stephen Recker
        I don t really have time to get my head around all of this right now, but will give you a taste. Page 135: A map, dated April 5, 1791, of the Road from
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 2, 2009
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          I don't really have time to get my head around all of this right now,
          but will give you a taste.

          Page 135: "A map, dated April 5, 1791, of the Road from Elizabethtown
          to Newcomber's Mill and Frederick County Line is in the Maryland
          Archives. This map identifies Orr's gap as Braddock's Gap. Conrad
          Hogmire, Daniel Winder and an unknown individual signed the map. It
          show's John Orr's house about one mile northwest of the gap in South
          Mountain. Stull's appears near a bridge, about one mile from the market
          House in Elizabethtown [Hagerstown]. The map includes the courses of
          the route similar to a land tract record. However, these measurements
          are difficult to read.

          The 1794 Dennis Griffith Map of Maryland shows a road from Boonsboro
          towards South Mountain and the are of Turner's Gap. The map shows a
          location entitled Orrs just northwest of the gap in the mountain. It
          seems probable a traveler from Frederick Town to Conococheague
          [Williamsport] passing through Orr's Gap would pass through the area
          that became Hagerstown.

          The Varle Map of 1808 show's Braddock's Gap on the old Hagerstown Road
          from Frederick Town. This gap is also known as Orr's Gap."

          These are snippets.

          What I learned from this book is that, heading west on Alt40, just
          before South Mountain, the Civil War roads turn left and right at
          Bolivar Road and Mt. Tabor Road, respectively. The earlier roads left
          alt40 about a mile east of that spot, at Marker Road (the original
          route to Fox's gap) and the Old Hagerstown Road (to the right). Pull up
          Google and you can see all of these roads.

          Stephen






          On Sunday, March 1, 2009, at 09:41 PM, eighth_conn_inf wrote:

          > Stephen,
          >
          > I know you don't want to keep Tom and I in suspense so is Hamburg
          > Pass only at the town of Hamburg and Orr's Gap the one 3 miles north
          > of Turner's Gap in South Mountain?

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • eighth_conn_inf
          Stephen, Thank you for your efforts. From what you found, looks like the gap 3 miles north of Turner s Gap was called Orr s Gap which became Hamburg Pass
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 2, 2009
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            Stephen,

            Thank you for your efforts. From what you found, looks like the gap 3
            miles north of Turner's Gap was called Orr's Gap which became Hamburg
            Pass thanks to Ripley et all during the CW. "Braddock's Gap" may
            have, over the years, referred to more than one gap?

            Larry


            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > I don't really have time to get my head around all of this right
            now,
            > but will give you a taste.
            >
            > Page 135: "A map, dated April 5, 1791, of the Road from
            Elizabethtown
            > to Newcomber's Mill and Frederick County Line is in the Maryland
            > Archives. This map identifies Orr's gap as Braddock's Gap. Conrad
            > Hogmire, Daniel Winder and an unknown individual signed the map. It
            > show's John Orr's house about one mile northwest of the gap in
            South
            > Mountain. Stull's appears near a bridge, about one mile from the
            market
            > House in Elizabethtown [Hagerstown]. The map includes the courses
            of
            > the route similar to a land tract record. However, these
            measurements
            > are difficult to read.
            >
            > The 1794 Dennis Griffith Map of Maryland shows a road from
            Boonsboro
            > towards South Mountain and the are of Turner's Gap. The map shows a
            > location entitled Orrs just northwest of the gap in the mountain.
            It
            > seems probable a traveler from Frederick Town to Conococheague
            > [Williamsport] passing through Orr's Gap would pass through the
            area
            > that became Hagerstown.
            >
            > The Varle Map of 1808 show's Braddock's Gap on the old Hagerstown
            Road
            > from Frederick Town. This gap is also known as Orr's Gap."
            >
            > These are snippets.
            >
            > What I learned from this book is that, heading west on Alt40, just
            > before South Mountain, the Civil War roads turn left and right at
            > Bolivar Road and Mt. Tabor Road, respectively. The earlier roads
            left
            > alt40 about a mile east of that spot, at Marker Road (the original
            > route to Fox's gap) and the Old Hagerstown Road (to the right).
            Pull up
            > Google and you can see all of these roads.
            >
            > Stephen
            >
          • eighth_conn_inf
            Brian, Thank you for your efforts. We have no snow here in Morgan County WV so far today (Monday 3/2) but it is very cold--16 this morning and windy--forecast
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 2, 2009
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              Brian,

              Thank you for your efforts. We have no snow here in Morgan County WV
              so far today (Monday 3/2) but it is very cold--16 this morning and
              windy--forecast for later in the week is much better.

              That is likely the cross road. I have a copy of a mid 1800's map
              showing the village and that there was a road along the top of the
              Catoctin Mountains probably now the Gambrill Park Rd. The map does
              not show a road or roads west towards Orr's Gap (Ripley's Hamburg
              Pass). Then, as now, looks like a traveller going west would take
              roundabout roads to Myersville then the road to Hagerstown thru Orr's
              Gap where today I70 and Rt 40 pass. All this makes it difficult to
              understand how Ripley named the gap in S. Mountain "Hamburg Pass."

              Another reference I found by Louis O'Donoghue says that "Hamburg is a
              village, located 2.5 miles northeast of Harmony on top of Catoctin
              Mountain at an elevation of 1610' possibly named for the Hamburg
              family who lived in Frederick County about 1800. It was considered a
              ghost town as it was never platted; foundations can still be found."
              If you find the ruins of the Hamburg fire-tower perhaps the
              foundations of some homes are nearby.

              Larry

              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Richardson"
              <BrianSRich@...> wrote:
              >
              > Larry -
              >
              > There is a Hamburg Road that intersects Gambrill Park Road about 4
              > miles north of Route 40 in the Catoctin range. Is that the
              crossroads
              > that Paula Strain refers to? Hamburg Road runs generally southeast
              > from there and joins Yellow Springs Road northwest of Frederick.
              > There isn't a direct route from the Hamburg Road/Gambrill Park Road
              > intersection to Hamburg Pass on South Mountain today. Weather
              > permitting I'll go poke around there in the next day or two and let
              > you know if I find anything.
              >
              > Best regards,
              >
              > Brian Richardson
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
              > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Tom,
              > >
              > > Thank you for your insight. I know that since you worked with Dr.
              > > Harsh that you likely knew about this relatively minor point.
              > >
              > > Perhaps someone at the Frederick County HS or Washington County
              > might
              > > be able to point me to something.
              > >
              > > In Paula M. Strain's "The Blue Hills of Maryland" she mentions
              > > Hamburg as "a ghost town on top of Catoctin Mountain near
              Gambrill
              > > State Park. It was never plotted officially but, at late as 1892,
              > > several houses stood near the crossroads. Even earlier, there was
              a
              > > tavern there. Now only the ruins of the Hamburg fire-tower mark
              the
              > > village," 272.
              > >
              > > She also writes about the Hagerstown-Frederick trolley which ran
              > thru
              > > Myersville then thru S. Mountain at "Orr's Gap" then to what was
              > then
              > > called Smoketown (now Mt. Lena), 204.
              > >
              > > She discusses Orr's Gap at some length (201-203) positing that
              this
              > > gap, three miles north Turner's Gap, through a sag between
              > Bartman's
              > > Hill and Pine Knob, has been known by three names in the last 250
              > > years: Orr's Gap, Hamburg Pass, and Trolley-Line Gap. She
              believes
              > > that the Orr's Gap name faded by the time of the CW so the pass
              was
              > > unnamed (by D. H. Hill) or incorrectly named "Hamburg Pass" by
              > > Ripley. But she implies that that name stuck since no one
              disputed
              > > it. "Ripley's assignment of the name of a village ten miles east
              on
              > > Catoctin Mountain to little Orr's Gap, has led a number of Civil
              > War
              > > historians unfamiliar with Maryland to repeat his mistake, making
              > > Hamburg Pass the second name Orr's has been called," 201-202.
              > >
              > > She could not find any reason for the name "Orr" in land records,
              > > etc., so she says that is likely why the name faded. As we know,
              > the
              > > names of places by CW troops unfamiliar with the area can be
              > > misleading and almost certainly by spelling. Perhaps here, Ripley
              > > talked to a civilian or a soldier familiar with the area and was
              > told
              > > that the road thru the gap leads to Hamburg so for
              identification,
              > he
              > > simply called it Hamburg Pass.
              > >
              > > Based on her research, I will call it "Orr's Gap" with, of
              course,
              > a
              > > footnote re Harsh, Ripley, Carman, and that the road thru there
              > also
              > > led to Hamburg, among other places east.
              > >
              > > Larry
              > >
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