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Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Hamburg Passes?

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  • Thomas Clemens
    It sounds like you ve found the most logical explanation so far. Good job! I may borrow this for a footnote I am working on right now. Thanks. Thomas G.
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 1, 2009
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      It sounds like you've found the most logical explanation so far. Good job! I may "borrow" this for a footnote I am working on right now.
      Thanks.

      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      Professor of History
      Hagerstown Community College


      >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 03/01/09 12:29 PM >>>
      Tom,

      Thank you for your insight. I know that since you worked with Dr.
      Harsh that you likely knew about this relatively minor point.

      Perhaps someone at the Frederick County HS or Washington County might
      be able to point me to something.

      In Paula M. Strain's "The Blue Hills of Maryland" she mentions
      Hamburg as "a ghost town on top of Catoctin Mountain near Gambrill
      State Park. It was never plotted officially but, at late as 1892,
      several houses stood near the crossroads. Even earlier, there was a
      tavern there. Now only the ruins of the Hamburg fire-tower mark the
      village," 272.

      She also writes about the Hagerstown-Frederick trolley which ran thru
      Myersville then thru S. Mountain at "Orr's Gap" then to what was then
      called Smoketown (now Mt. Lena), 204.

      She discusses Orr's Gap at some length (201-203) positing that this
      gap, three miles north Turner's Gap, through a sag between Bartman's
      Hill and Pine Knob, has been known by three names in the last 250
      years: Orr's Gap, Hamburg Pass, and Trolley-Line Gap. She believes
      that the Orr's Gap name faded by the time of the CW so the pass was
      unnamed (by D. H. Hill) or incorrectly named "Hamburg Pass" by
      Ripley. But she implies that that name stuck since no one disputed
      it. "Ripley's assignment of the name of a village ten miles east on
      Catoctin Mountain to little Orr's Gap, has led a number of Civil War
      historians unfamiliar with Maryland to repeat his mistake, making
      Hamburg Pass the second name Orr's has been called," 201-202.

      She could not find any reason for the name "Orr" in land records,
      etc., so she says that is likely why the name faded. As we know, the
      names of places by CW troops unfamiliar with the area can be
      misleading and almost certainly by spelling. Perhaps here, Ripley
      talked to a civilian or a soldier familiar with the area and was told
      that the road thru the gap leads to Hamburg so for identification, he
      simply called it Hamburg Pass.

      Based on her research, I will call it "Orr's Gap" with, of course, a
      footnote re Harsh, Ripley, Carman, and that the road thru there also
      led to Hamburg, among other places east.

      Larry


      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Hi Larry,
      > I am aware of the dual usage of Hamburg pass. I cannot say that I
      have anything concrete on the supposition I am about to state, but it
      was the thinking of Joe Harsh when he wrote the book and does make a
      sort of sense. I think the pass in South Mt. is called Hamburg pass
      because it leads to the town of Hamburg, even though it is across the
      valley and on top of Catoctin Mt. It makes sense and if we think
      about it Brownsville Pass leads across South Mt. to Brownsville; the
      town is not on top of the gap. And yes, it is my understanding that
      it is the gap where I-70 and "new" 40 run across the mountain. I
      think in the Battlefield Board letters another trooper mentions
      crossing South Mt. at Hamburg Pass, but I don't havethat in front of
      me right now. I can look it up if you need it.
      > You're doing good work, and I look forward to seeing it in print
      sometime soon.
      >
      >
      > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      > Professor of History
      > Hagerstown Community College
      >
      >
      > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 02/28/09 4:54 PM >>>
      > Hamburg was a village in Maryland north of Frederick on top of the
      > Catoctin Mountains through which a road ran. ("OR Atlas" 27, 1)
      > Carman on p. 175 says that Hamburg Pass is there while Harsh (and
      > Ripley) say it is about three miles north of Turner's Pass through
      > South Mountain.
      >
      > One officer in the 9th Virginia Cavalry, one of F. Lee's regiments,
      > commented that "Hamburg was a rude and scattering village on the
      > crest of the mountain, where the manufacture of brandy seemed to be
      > the chief employment of the villagers, and at the early hour of our
      > passage through the place, both the men and women gave proof that
      > they were free imbibers of the product of their stills. It was not
      > easy to find a sober inhabitant of either sex," Beale, "A
      Lieutenant
      > Of Cavalry in Lee's Army."
      >
      > Harsh discussed Hamburg Pass, "Flood," 248, 257. Did Harsh (or
      > Carman) confuse the Hamburg Pass in the Catoctin Mountains for a
      pass
      > in South Mountain. See Brig. Gen. Ripley's report using "Hamburg
      > Pass" for the pass north of Boonsboro in South Mountain: "OR," vol.
      > 19, pt. 1, 1031.
      >
      > What seems to be certain that there was then (just a few
      foundations
      > remain) a place called Hamburg on Catoctin Mountain through which a
      > road traversed the mountain. It is also certain that there was a
      pass
      > some three miles north of Turner's Gap. Was Ripley and therefore
      > Harsh using Ripley confused or was Carman wrong? Or did a road then
      > run from Hamburg thru the pass in S. Mountain. It is possible that
      > both passes had the same name but that seems very unlikely.
      >
      > Is the pass in S. Mountain three miles north of Turner's Gap the
      one
      > through which Rt. 40 and I70 are located? Is this pass where the
      old
      > stage road from Frederick to Hagerstown passed? IIRC Tom Clemens
      > mentioned this. I assume that Fitz Lee's troopers used the pass in
      S.
      > Mountain to get to Boonsboro after leaving Hamburg and I'd like to
      > know its name.
      >
      > I appreciate any comments especially referring to sources. Has
      anyone
      > been thru Hamburg?
      >
      > Larry F.
      >
    • eighth_conn_inf
      Stephen, I know you don t want to keep Tom and I in suspense so is Hamburg Pass only at the town of Hamburg and Orr s Gap the one 3 miles north of Turner s Gap
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 1, 2009
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        Stephen,

        I know you don't want to keep Tom and I in suspense so is Hamburg
        Pass only at the town of Hamburg and Orr's Gap the one 3 miles north
        of Turner's Gap in South Mountain?

        Larry

        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > The best source I have seen for the back-story on South Mountain
        names
        > is Curtis Older's "The Braddock Expedition and Fox's Gap in
        Maryland."
        > I have only found two for sale anywhere, and they were in the
        Frederick
        > County HS book store. I bought one and there was one more left.
        Amazing
        > book. He mentions Hamburg Pass, mostly when referencing D.H. Hill.
        But
        > he puts it in a context that may shed some light. He also mentions
        > Orr's Gap and John Orr.
        >
        > Stephen
        >
        >
        > On Sunday, March 1, 2009, at 12:29 PM, eighth_conn_inf wrote:
        >
        > > Tom,
        > >
        > > Thank you for your insight. I know that since you worked with Dr.
        > > Harsh that you likely knew about this relatively minor point.
        > >
        > > Perhaps someone at the Frederick County HS or Washington County
        might
        > > be able to point me to something.
        > >
        > > In Paula M. Strain's "The Blue Hills of Maryland" she mentions
        > > Hamburg as "a ghost town on top of Catoctin Mountain near Gambrill
        > > State Park. It was never plotted officially but, at late as 1892,
        > > several houses stood near the crossroads. Even earlier, there was
        a
        > > tavern there. Now only the ruins of the Hamburg fire-tower mark
        the
        > > village,"
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Brian Richardson
        Larry - There is a Hamburg Road that intersects Gambrill Park Road about 4 miles north of Route 40 in the Catoctin range. Is that the crossroads that Paula
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 1, 2009
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          Larry -

          There is a Hamburg Road that intersects Gambrill Park Road about 4
          miles north of Route 40 in the Catoctin range. Is that the crossroads
          that Paula Strain refers to? Hamburg Road runs generally southeast
          from there and joins Yellow Springs Road northwest of Frederick.
          There isn't a direct route from the Hamburg Road/Gambrill Park Road
          intersection to Hamburg Pass on South Mountain today. Weather
          permitting I'll go poke around there in the next day or two and let
          you know if I find anything.

          Best regards,

          Brian Richardson



          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
          <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
          >
          > Tom,
          >
          > Thank you for your insight. I know that since you worked with Dr.
          > Harsh that you likely knew about this relatively minor point.
          >
          > Perhaps someone at the Frederick County HS or Washington County
          might
          > be able to point me to something.
          >
          > In Paula M. Strain's "The Blue Hills of Maryland" she mentions
          > Hamburg as "a ghost town on top of Catoctin Mountain near Gambrill
          > State Park. It was never plotted officially but, at late as 1892,
          > several houses stood near the crossroads. Even earlier, there was a
          > tavern there. Now only the ruins of the Hamburg fire-tower mark the
          > village," 272.
          >
          > She also writes about the Hagerstown-Frederick trolley which ran
          thru
          > Myersville then thru S. Mountain at "Orr's Gap" then to what was
          then
          > called Smoketown (now Mt. Lena), 204.
          >
          > She discusses Orr's Gap at some length (201-203) positing that this
          > gap, three miles north Turner's Gap, through a sag between
          Bartman's
          > Hill and Pine Knob, has been known by three names in the last 250
          > years: Orr's Gap, Hamburg Pass, and Trolley-Line Gap. She believes
          > that the Orr's Gap name faded by the time of the CW so the pass was
          > unnamed (by D. H. Hill) or incorrectly named "Hamburg Pass" by
          > Ripley. But she implies that that name stuck since no one disputed
          > it. "Ripley's assignment of the name of a village ten miles east on
          > Catoctin Mountain to little Orr's Gap, has led a number of Civil
          War
          > historians unfamiliar with Maryland to repeat his mistake, making
          > Hamburg Pass the second name Orr's has been called," 201-202.
          >
          > She could not find any reason for the name "Orr" in land records,
          > etc., so she says that is likely why the name faded. As we know,
          the
          > names of places by CW troops unfamiliar with the area can be
          > misleading and almost certainly by spelling. Perhaps here, Ripley
          > talked to a civilian or a soldier familiar with the area and was
          told
          > that the road thru the gap leads to Hamburg so for identification,
          he
          > simply called it Hamburg Pass.
          >
          > Based on her research, I will call it "Orr's Gap" with, of course,
          a
          > footnote re Harsh, Ripley, Carman, and that the road thru there
          also
          > led to Hamburg, among other places east.
          >
          > Larry
          >
          >
          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi Larry,
          > > I am aware of the dual usage of Hamburg pass. I cannot say that
          I
          > have anything concrete on the supposition I am about to state, but
          it
          > was the thinking of Joe Harsh when he wrote the book and does make
          a
          > sort of sense. I think the pass in South Mt. is called Hamburg
          pass
          > because it leads to the town of Hamburg, even though it is across
          the
          > valley and on top of Catoctin Mt. It makes sense and if we think
          > about it Brownsville Pass leads across South Mt. to Brownsville;
          the
          > town is not on top of the gap. And yes, it is my understanding
          that
          > it is the gap where I-70 and "new" 40 run across the mountain. I
          > think in the Battlefield Board letters another trooper mentions
          > crossing South Mt. at Hamburg Pass, but I don't havethat in front
          of
          > me right now. I can look it up if you need it.
          > > You're doing good work, and I look forward to seeing it in print
          > sometime soon.
          > >
          > >
          > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          > > Professor of History
          > > Hagerstown Community College
          > >
          > >
          > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@> 02/28/09 4:54 PM >>>
          > > Hamburg was a village in Maryland north of Frederick on top of
          the
          > > Catoctin Mountains through which a road ran. ("OR Atlas" 27, 1)
          > > Carman on p. 175 says that Hamburg Pass is there while Harsh (and
          > > Ripley) say it is about three miles north of Turner's Pass
          through
          > > South Mountain.
          > >
          > > One officer in the 9th Virginia Cavalry, one of F. Lee's
          regiments,
          > > commented that "Hamburg was a rude and scattering village on the
          > > crest of the mountain, where the manufacture of brandy seemed to
          be
          > > the chief employment of the villagers, and at the early hour of
          our
          > > passage through the place, both the men and women gave proof that
          > > they were free imbibers of the product of their stills. It was
          not
          > > easy to find a sober inhabitant of either sex," Beale, "A
          > Lieutenant
          > > Of Cavalry in Lee's Army."
          > >
          > > Harsh discussed Hamburg Pass, "Flood," 248, 257. Did Harsh (or
          > > Carman) confuse the Hamburg Pass in the Catoctin Mountains for a
          > pass
          > > in South Mountain. See Brig. Gen. Ripley's report using "Hamburg
          > > Pass" for the pass north of Boonsboro in South Mountain: "OR,"
          vol.
          > > 19, pt. 1, 1031.
          > >
          > > What seems to be certain that there was then (just a few
          > foundations
          > > remain) a place called Hamburg on Catoctin Mountain through which
          a
          > > road traversed the mountain. It is also certain that there was a
          > pass
          > > some three miles north of Turner's Gap. Was Ripley and therefore
          > > Harsh using Ripley confused or was Carman wrong? Or did a road
          then
          > > run from Hamburg thru the pass in S. Mountain. It is possible
          that
          > > both passes had the same name but that seems very unlikely.
          > >
          > > Is the pass in S. Mountain three miles north of Turner's Gap the
          > one
          > > through which Rt. 40 and I70 are located? Is this pass where the
          > old
          > > stage road from Frederick to Hagerstown passed? IIRC Tom Clemens
          > > mentioned this. I assume that Fitz Lee's troopers used the pass
          in
          > S.
          > > Mountain to get to Boonsboro after leaving Hamburg and I'd like
          to
          > > know its name.
          > >
          > > I appreciate any comments especially referring to sources. Has
          > anyone
          > > been thru Hamburg?
          > >
          > > Larry F.
          > >
          >
        • Stephen Recker
          I don t really have time to get my head around all of this right now, but will give you a taste. Page 135: A map, dated April 5, 1791, of the Road from
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 2, 2009
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            I don't really have time to get my head around all of this right now,
            but will give you a taste.

            Page 135: "A map, dated April 5, 1791, of the Road from Elizabethtown
            to Newcomber's Mill and Frederick County Line is in the Maryland
            Archives. This map identifies Orr's gap as Braddock's Gap. Conrad
            Hogmire, Daniel Winder and an unknown individual signed the map. It
            show's John Orr's house about one mile northwest of the gap in South
            Mountain. Stull's appears near a bridge, about one mile from the market
            House in Elizabethtown [Hagerstown]. The map includes the courses of
            the route similar to a land tract record. However, these measurements
            are difficult to read.

            The 1794 Dennis Griffith Map of Maryland shows a road from Boonsboro
            towards South Mountain and the are of Turner's Gap. The map shows a
            location entitled Orrs just northwest of the gap in the mountain. It
            seems probable a traveler from Frederick Town to Conococheague
            [Williamsport] passing through Orr's Gap would pass through the area
            that became Hagerstown.

            The Varle Map of 1808 show's Braddock's Gap on the old Hagerstown Road
            from Frederick Town. This gap is also known as Orr's Gap."

            These are snippets.

            What I learned from this book is that, heading west on Alt40, just
            before South Mountain, the Civil War roads turn left and right at
            Bolivar Road and Mt. Tabor Road, respectively. The earlier roads left
            alt40 about a mile east of that spot, at Marker Road (the original
            route to Fox's gap) and the Old Hagerstown Road (to the right). Pull up
            Google and you can see all of these roads.

            Stephen






            On Sunday, March 1, 2009, at 09:41 PM, eighth_conn_inf wrote:

            > Stephen,
            >
            > I know you don't want to keep Tom and I in suspense so is Hamburg
            > Pass only at the town of Hamburg and Orr's Gap the one 3 miles north
            > of Turner's Gap in South Mountain?

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • eighth_conn_inf
            Stephen, Thank you for your efforts. From what you found, looks like the gap 3 miles north of Turner s Gap was called Orr s Gap which became Hamburg Pass
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 2, 2009
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              Stephen,

              Thank you for your efforts. From what you found, looks like the gap 3
              miles north of Turner's Gap was called Orr's Gap which became Hamburg
              Pass thanks to Ripley et all during the CW. "Braddock's Gap" may
              have, over the years, referred to more than one gap?

              Larry


              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > I don't really have time to get my head around all of this right
              now,
              > but will give you a taste.
              >
              > Page 135: "A map, dated April 5, 1791, of the Road from
              Elizabethtown
              > to Newcomber's Mill and Frederick County Line is in the Maryland
              > Archives. This map identifies Orr's gap as Braddock's Gap. Conrad
              > Hogmire, Daniel Winder and an unknown individual signed the map. It
              > show's John Orr's house about one mile northwest of the gap in
              South
              > Mountain. Stull's appears near a bridge, about one mile from the
              market
              > House in Elizabethtown [Hagerstown]. The map includes the courses
              of
              > the route similar to a land tract record. However, these
              measurements
              > are difficult to read.
              >
              > The 1794 Dennis Griffith Map of Maryland shows a road from
              Boonsboro
              > towards South Mountain and the are of Turner's Gap. The map shows a
              > location entitled Orrs just northwest of the gap in the mountain.
              It
              > seems probable a traveler from Frederick Town to Conococheague
              > [Williamsport] passing through Orr's Gap would pass through the
              area
              > that became Hagerstown.
              >
              > The Varle Map of 1808 show's Braddock's Gap on the old Hagerstown
              Road
              > from Frederick Town. This gap is also known as Orr's Gap."
              >
              > These are snippets.
              >
              > What I learned from this book is that, heading west on Alt40, just
              > before South Mountain, the Civil War roads turn left and right at
              > Bolivar Road and Mt. Tabor Road, respectively. The earlier roads
              left
              > alt40 about a mile east of that spot, at Marker Road (the original
              > route to Fox's gap) and the Old Hagerstown Road (to the right).
              Pull up
              > Google and you can see all of these roads.
              >
              > Stephen
              >
            • eighth_conn_inf
              Brian, Thank you for your efforts. We have no snow here in Morgan County WV so far today (Monday 3/2) but it is very cold--16 this morning and windy--forecast
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 2, 2009
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                Brian,

                Thank you for your efforts. We have no snow here in Morgan County WV
                so far today (Monday 3/2) but it is very cold--16 this morning and
                windy--forecast for later in the week is much better.

                That is likely the cross road. I have a copy of a mid 1800's map
                showing the village and that there was a road along the top of the
                Catoctin Mountains probably now the Gambrill Park Rd. The map does
                not show a road or roads west towards Orr's Gap (Ripley's Hamburg
                Pass). Then, as now, looks like a traveller going west would take
                roundabout roads to Myersville then the road to Hagerstown thru Orr's
                Gap where today I70 and Rt 40 pass. All this makes it difficult to
                understand how Ripley named the gap in S. Mountain "Hamburg Pass."

                Another reference I found by Louis O'Donoghue says that "Hamburg is a
                village, located 2.5 miles northeast of Harmony on top of Catoctin
                Mountain at an elevation of 1610' possibly named for the Hamburg
                family who lived in Frederick County about 1800. It was considered a
                ghost town as it was never platted; foundations can still be found."
                If you find the ruins of the Hamburg fire-tower perhaps the
                foundations of some homes are nearby.

                Larry

                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Richardson"
                <BrianSRich@...> wrote:
                >
                > Larry -
                >
                > There is a Hamburg Road that intersects Gambrill Park Road about 4
                > miles north of Route 40 in the Catoctin range. Is that the
                crossroads
                > that Paula Strain refers to? Hamburg Road runs generally southeast
                > from there and joins Yellow Springs Road northwest of Frederick.
                > There isn't a direct route from the Hamburg Road/Gambrill Park Road
                > intersection to Hamburg Pass on South Mountain today. Weather
                > permitting I'll go poke around there in the next day or two and let
                > you know if I find anything.
                >
                > Best regards,
                >
                > Brian Richardson
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Tom,
                > >
                > > Thank you for your insight. I know that since you worked with Dr.
                > > Harsh that you likely knew about this relatively minor point.
                > >
                > > Perhaps someone at the Frederick County HS or Washington County
                > might
                > > be able to point me to something.
                > >
                > > In Paula M. Strain's "The Blue Hills of Maryland" she mentions
                > > Hamburg as "a ghost town on top of Catoctin Mountain near
                Gambrill
                > > State Park. It was never plotted officially but, at late as 1892,
                > > several houses stood near the crossroads. Even earlier, there was
                a
                > > tavern there. Now only the ruins of the Hamburg fire-tower mark
                the
                > > village," 272.
                > >
                > > She also writes about the Hagerstown-Frederick trolley which ran
                > thru
                > > Myersville then thru S. Mountain at "Orr's Gap" then to what was
                > then
                > > called Smoketown (now Mt. Lena), 204.
                > >
                > > She discusses Orr's Gap at some length (201-203) positing that
                this
                > > gap, three miles north Turner's Gap, through a sag between
                > Bartman's
                > > Hill and Pine Knob, has been known by three names in the last 250
                > > years: Orr's Gap, Hamburg Pass, and Trolley-Line Gap. She
                believes
                > > that the Orr's Gap name faded by the time of the CW so the pass
                was
                > > unnamed (by D. H. Hill) or incorrectly named "Hamburg Pass" by
                > > Ripley. But she implies that that name stuck since no one
                disputed
                > > it. "Ripley's assignment of the name of a village ten miles east
                on
                > > Catoctin Mountain to little Orr's Gap, has led a number of Civil
                > War
                > > historians unfamiliar with Maryland to repeat his mistake, making
                > > Hamburg Pass the second name Orr's has been called," 201-202.
                > >
                > > She could not find any reason for the name "Orr" in land records,
                > > etc., so she says that is likely why the name faded. As we know,
                > the
                > > names of places by CW troops unfamiliar with the area can be
                > > misleading and almost certainly by spelling. Perhaps here, Ripley
                > > talked to a civilian or a soldier familiar with the area and was
                > told
                > > that the road thru the gap leads to Hamburg so for
                identification,
                > he
                > > simply called it Hamburg Pass.
                > >
                > > Based on her research, I will call it "Orr's Gap" with, of
                course,
                > a
                > > footnote re Harsh, Ripley, Carman, and that the road thru there
                > also
                > > led to Hamburg, among other places east.
                > >
                > > Larry
                > >
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