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Re: [TalkAntietam] Hamburg Passes?

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  • Thomas Clemens
    Hi Larry, I am aware of the dual usage of Hamburg pass. I cannot say that I have anything concrete on the supposition I am about to state, but it was the
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 1, 2009
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      Hi Larry,
      I am aware of the dual usage of Hamburg pass. I cannot say that I have anything concrete on the supposition I am about to state, but it was the thinking of Joe Harsh when he wrote the book and does make a sort of sense. I think the pass in South Mt. is called Hamburg pass because it leads to the town of Hamburg, even though it is across the valley and on top of Catoctin Mt. It makes sense and if we think about it Brownsville Pass leads across South Mt. to Brownsville; the town is not on top of the gap. And yes, it is my understanding that it is the gap where I-70 and "new" 40 run across the mountain. I think in the Battlefield Board letters another trooper mentions crossing South Mt. at Hamburg Pass, but I don't havethat in front of me right now. I can look it up if you need it.
      You're doing good work, and I look forward to seeing it in print sometime soon.


      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      Professor of History
      Hagerstown Community College


      >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 02/28/09 4:54 PM >>>
      Hamburg was a village in Maryland north of Frederick on top of the
      Catoctin Mountains through which a road ran. ("OR Atlas" 27, 1)
      Carman on p. 175 says that Hamburg Pass is there while Harsh (and
      Ripley) say it is about three miles north of Turner's Pass through
      South Mountain.

      One officer in the 9th Virginia Cavalry, one of F. Lee's regiments,
      commented that "Hamburg was a rude and scattering village on the
      crest of the mountain, where the manufacture of brandy seemed to be
      the chief employment of the villagers, and at the early hour of our
      passage through the place, both the men and women gave proof that
      they were free imbibers of the product of their stills. It was not
      easy to find a sober inhabitant of either sex," Beale, "A Lieutenant
      Of Cavalry in Lee's Army."

      Harsh discussed Hamburg Pass, "Flood," 248, 257. Did Harsh (or
      Carman) confuse the Hamburg Pass in the Catoctin Mountains for a pass
      in South Mountain. See Brig. Gen. Ripley's report using "Hamburg
      Pass" for the pass north of Boonsboro in South Mountain: "OR," vol.
      19, pt. 1, 1031.

      What seems to be certain that there was then (just a few foundations
      remain) a place called Hamburg on Catoctin Mountain through which a
      road traversed the mountain. It is also certain that there was a pass
      some three miles north of Turner's Gap. Was Ripley and therefore
      Harsh using Ripley confused or was Carman wrong? Or did a road then
      run from Hamburg thru the pass in S. Mountain. It is possible that
      both passes had the same name but that seems very unlikely.

      Is the pass in S. Mountain three miles north of Turner's Gap the one
      through which Rt. 40 and I70 are located? Is this pass where the old
      stage road from Frederick to Hagerstown passed? IIRC Tom Clemens
      mentioned this. I assume that Fitz Lee's troopers used the pass in S.
      Mountain to get to Boonsboro after leaving Hamburg and I'd like to
      know its name.

      I appreciate any comments especially referring to sources. Has anyone
      been thru Hamburg?

      Larry F.
    • eighth_conn_inf
      Tom, Thank you for your insight. I know that since you worked with Dr. Harsh that you likely knew about this relatively minor point. Perhaps someone at the
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 1, 2009
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        Tom,

        Thank you for your insight. I know that since you worked with Dr.
        Harsh that you likely knew about this relatively minor point.

        Perhaps someone at the Frederick County HS or Washington County might
        be able to point me to something.

        In Paula M. Strain's "The Blue Hills of Maryland" she mentions
        Hamburg as "a ghost town on top of Catoctin Mountain near Gambrill
        State Park. It was never plotted officially but, at late as 1892,
        several houses stood near the crossroads. Even earlier, there was a
        tavern there. Now only the ruins of the Hamburg fire-tower mark the
        village," 272.

        She also writes about the Hagerstown-Frederick trolley which ran thru
        Myersville then thru S. Mountain at "Orr's Gap" then to what was then
        called Smoketown (now Mt. Lena), 204.

        She discusses Orr's Gap at some length (201-203) positing that this
        gap, three miles north Turner's Gap, through a sag between Bartman's
        Hill and Pine Knob, has been known by three names in the last 250
        years: Orr's Gap, Hamburg Pass, and Trolley-Line Gap. She believes
        that the Orr's Gap name faded by the time of the CW so the pass was
        unnamed (by D. H. Hill) or incorrectly named "Hamburg Pass" by
        Ripley. But she implies that that name stuck since no one disputed
        it. "Ripley's assignment of the name of a village ten miles east on
        Catoctin Mountain to little Orr's Gap, has led a number of Civil War
        historians unfamiliar with Maryland to repeat his mistake, making
        Hamburg Pass the second name Orr's has been called," 201-202.

        She could not find any reason for the name "Orr" in land records,
        etc., so she says that is likely why the name faded. As we know, the
        names of places by CW troops unfamiliar with the area can be
        misleading and almost certainly by spelling. Perhaps here, Ripley
        talked to a civilian or a soldier familiar with the area and was told
        that the road thru the gap leads to Hamburg so for identification, he
        simply called it Hamburg Pass.

        Based on her research, I will call it "Orr's Gap" with, of course, a
        footnote re Harsh, Ripley, Carman, and that the road thru there also
        led to Hamburg, among other places east.

        Larry


        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Hi Larry,
        > I am aware of the dual usage of Hamburg pass. I cannot say that I
        have anything concrete on the supposition I am about to state, but it
        was the thinking of Joe Harsh when he wrote the book and does make a
        sort of sense. I think the pass in South Mt. is called Hamburg pass
        because it leads to the town of Hamburg, even though it is across the
        valley and on top of Catoctin Mt. It makes sense and if we think
        about it Brownsville Pass leads across South Mt. to Brownsville; the
        town is not on top of the gap. And yes, it is my understanding that
        it is the gap where I-70 and "new" 40 run across the mountain. I
        think in the Battlefield Board letters another trooper mentions
        crossing South Mt. at Hamburg Pass, but I don't havethat in front of
        me right now. I can look it up if you need it.
        > You're doing good work, and I look forward to seeing it in print
        sometime soon.
        >
        >
        > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        > Professor of History
        > Hagerstown Community College
        >
        >
        > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 02/28/09 4:54 PM >>>
        > Hamburg was a village in Maryland north of Frederick on top of the
        > Catoctin Mountains through which a road ran. ("OR Atlas" 27, 1)
        > Carman on p. 175 says that Hamburg Pass is there while Harsh (and
        > Ripley) say it is about three miles north of Turner's Pass through
        > South Mountain.
        >
        > One officer in the 9th Virginia Cavalry, one of F. Lee's regiments,
        > commented that "Hamburg was a rude and scattering village on the
        > crest of the mountain, where the manufacture of brandy seemed to be
        > the chief employment of the villagers, and at the early hour of our
        > passage through the place, both the men and women gave proof that
        > they were free imbibers of the product of their stills. It was not
        > easy to find a sober inhabitant of either sex," Beale, "A
        Lieutenant
        > Of Cavalry in Lee's Army."
        >
        > Harsh discussed Hamburg Pass, "Flood," 248, 257. Did Harsh (or
        > Carman) confuse the Hamburg Pass in the Catoctin Mountains for a
        pass
        > in South Mountain. See Brig. Gen. Ripley's report using "Hamburg
        > Pass" for the pass north of Boonsboro in South Mountain: "OR," vol.
        > 19, pt. 1, 1031.
        >
        > What seems to be certain that there was then (just a few
        foundations
        > remain) a place called Hamburg on Catoctin Mountain through which a
        > road traversed the mountain. It is also certain that there was a
        pass
        > some three miles north of Turner's Gap. Was Ripley and therefore
        > Harsh using Ripley confused or was Carman wrong? Or did a road then
        > run from Hamburg thru the pass in S. Mountain. It is possible that
        > both passes had the same name but that seems very unlikely.
        >
        > Is the pass in S. Mountain three miles north of Turner's Gap the
        one
        > through which Rt. 40 and I70 are located? Is this pass where the
        old
        > stage road from Frederick to Hagerstown passed? IIRC Tom Clemens
        > mentioned this. I assume that Fitz Lee's troopers used the pass in
        S.
        > Mountain to get to Boonsboro after leaving Hamburg and I'd like to
        > know its name.
        >
        > I appreciate any comments especially referring to sources. Has
        anyone
        > been thru Hamburg?
        >
        > Larry F.
        >
      • Stephen Recker
        The best source I have seen for the back-story on South Mountain names is Curtis Older s The Braddock Expedition and Fox s Gap in Maryland. I have only found
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 1, 2009
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          The best source I have seen for the back-story on South Mountain names
          is Curtis Older's "The Braddock Expedition and Fox's Gap in Maryland."
          I have only found two for sale anywhere, and they were in the Frederick
          County HS book store. I bought one and there was one more left. Amazing
          book. He mentions Hamburg Pass, mostly when referencing D.H. Hill. But
          he puts it in a context that may shed some light. He also mentions
          Orr's Gap and John Orr.

          Stephen


          On Sunday, March 1, 2009, at 12:29 PM, eighth_conn_inf wrote:

          > Tom,
          >
          > Thank you for your insight. I know that since you worked with Dr.
          > Harsh that you likely knew about this relatively minor point.
          >
          > Perhaps someone at the Frederick County HS or Washington County might
          > be able to point me to something.
          >
          > In Paula M. Strain's "The Blue Hills of Maryland" she mentions
          > Hamburg as "a ghost town on top of Catoctin Mountain near Gambrill
          > State Park. It was never plotted officially but, at late as 1892,
          > several houses stood near the crossroads. Even earlier, there was a
          > tavern there. Now only the ruins of the Hamburg fire-tower mark the
          > village,"

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • eighth_conn_inf
          Stephen, Thanks for the tip! When I was in the bookstore last week, I don t remember seeing it but I will call tomorrow. If it is not there, could I borrow
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 1, 2009
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            Stephen,

            Thanks for the tip! When I was in the bookstore last week, I don't
            remember seeing it but I will call tomorrow. If it is not there,
            could I borrow yours or get the quotes from it?

            Larry

            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > The best source I have seen for the back-story on South Mountain
            names
            > is Curtis Older's "The Braddock Expedition and Fox's Gap in
            Maryland."
            > I have only found two for sale anywhere, and they were in the
            Frederick
            > County HS book store. I bought one and there was one more left.
            Amazing
            > book. He mentions Hamburg Pass, mostly when referencing D.H. Hill.
            But
            > he puts it in a context that may shed some light. He also mentions
            > Orr's Gap and John Orr.
            >
            > Stephen
            >
            >
            > On Sunday, March 1, 2009, at 12:29 PM, eighth_conn_inf wrote:
            >
            > > Tom,
            > >
            > > Thank you for your insight. I know that since you worked with Dr.
            > > Harsh that you likely knew about this relatively minor point.
            > >
            > > Perhaps someone at the Frederick County HS or Washington County
            might
            > > be able to point me to something.
            > >
            > > In Paula M. Strain's "The Blue Hills of Maryland" she mentions
            > > Hamburg as "a ghost town on top of Catoctin Mountain near Gambrill
            > > State Park. It was never plotted officially but, at late as 1892,
            > > several houses stood near the crossroads. Even earlier, there was
            a
            > > tavern there. Now only the ruins of the Hamburg fire-tower mark
            the
            > > village,"
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • eighth_conn_inf
            Stephen, Thanks for the tip! When I was in the bookstore last week, I don t remember seeing it but I just ordered it from Abe Books. Larry ... Hill. ...
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 1, 2009
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              Stephen,

              Thanks for the tip! When I was in the bookstore last week, I don't
              remember seeing it but I just ordered it from Abe Books.

              Larry
              >
              > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > The best source I have seen for the back-story on South Mountain
              > names
              > > is Curtis Older's "The Braddock Expedition and Fox's Gap in
              > Maryland."
              > > I have only found two for sale anywhere, and they were in the
              > Frederick
              > > County HS book store. I bought one and there was one more left.
              > Amazing
              > > book. He mentions Hamburg Pass, mostly when referencing D.H.
              Hill.
              > But
              > > he puts it in a context that may shed some light. He also
              mentions
              > > Orr's Gap and John Orr.
              > >
              > > Stephen
              > >
              > >
              > > On Sunday, March 1, 2009, at 12:29 PM, eighth_conn_inf wrote:
              > >
              > > > Tom,
              > > >
              > > > Thank you for your insight. I know that since you worked with
              Dr.
              > > > Harsh that you likely knew about this relatively minor point.
              > > >
              > > > Perhaps someone at the Frederick County HS or Washington County
              > might
              > > > be able to point me to something.
              > > >
              > > > In Paula M. Strain's "The Blue Hills of Maryland" she mentions
              > > > Hamburg as "a ghost town on top of Catoctin Mountain near
              Gambrill
              > > > State Park. It was never plotted officially but, at late as
              1892,
              > > > several houses stood near the crossroads. Even earlier, there
              was
              > a
              > > > tavern there. Now only the ruins of the Hamburg fire-tower mark
              > the
              > > > village,"
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
            • Thomas Clemens
              It sounds like you ve found the most logical explanation so far. Good job! I may borrow this for a footnote I am working on right now. Thanks. Thomas G.
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 1, 2009
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                It sounds like you've found the most logical explanation so far. Good job! I may "borrow" this for a footnote I am working on right now.
                Thanks.

                Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                Professor of History
                Hagerstown Community College


                >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 03/01/09 12:29 PM >>>
                Tom,

                Thank you for your insight. I know that since you worked with Dr.
                Harsh that you likely knew about this relatively minor point.

                Perhaps someone at the Frederick County HS or Washington County might
                be able to point me to something.

                In Paula M. Strain's "The Blue Hills of Maryland" she mentions
                Hamburg as "a ghost town on top of Catoctin Mountain near Gambrill
                State Park. It was never plotted officially but, at late as 1892,
                several houses stood near the crossroads. Even earlier, there was a
                tavern there. Now only the ruins of the Hamburg fire-tower mark the
                village," 272.

                She also writes about the Hagerstown-Frederick trolley which ran thru
                Myersville then thru S. Mountain at "Orr's Gap" then to what was then
                called Smoketown (now Mt. Lena), 204.

                She discusses Orr's Gap at some length (201-203) positing that this
                gap, three miles north Turner's Gap, through a sag between Bartman's
                Hill and Pine Knob, has been known by three names in the last 250
                years: Orr's Gap, Hamburg Pass, and Trolley-Line Gap. She believes
                that the Orr's Gap name faded by the time of the CW so the pass was
                unnamed (by D. H. Hill) or incorrectly named "Hamburg Pass" by
                Ripley. But she implies that that name stuck since no one disputed
                it. "Ripley's assignment of the name of a village ten miles east on
                Catoctin Mountain to little Orr's Gap, has led a number of Civil War
                historians unfamiliar with Maryland to repeat his mistake, making
                Hamburg Pass the second name Orr's has been called," 201-202.

                She could not find any reason for the name "Orr" in land records,
                etc., so she says that is likely why the name faded. As we know, the
                names of places by CW troops unfamiliar with the area can be
                misleading and almost certainly by spelling. Perhaps here, Ripley
                talked to a civilian or a soldier familiar with the area and was told
                that the road thru the gap leads to Hamburg so for identification, he
                simply called it Hamburg Pass.

                Based on her research, I will call it "Orr's Gap" with, of course, a
                footnote re Harsh, Ripley, Carman, and that the road thru there also
                led to Hamburg, among other places east.

                Larry


                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Hi Larry,
                > I am aware of the dual usage of Hamburg pass. I cannot say that I
                have anything concrete on the supposition I am about to state, but it
                was the thinking of Joe Harsh when he wrote the book and does make a
                sort of sense. I think the pass in South Mt. is called Hamburg pass
                because it leads to the town of Hamburg, even though it is across the
                valley and on top of Catoctin Mt. It makes sense and if we think
                about it Brownsville Pass leads across South Mt. to Brownsville; the
                town is not on top of the gap. And yes, it is my understanding that
                it is the gap where I-70 and "new" 40 run across the mountain. I
                think in the Battlefield Board letters another trooper mentions
                crossing South Mt. at Hamburg Pass, but I don't havethat in front of
                me right now. I can look it up if you need it.
                > You're doing good work, and I look forward to seeing it in print
                sometime soon.
                >
                >
                > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                > Professor of History
                > Hagerstown Community College
                >
                >
                > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 02/28/09 4:54 PM >>>
                > Hamburg was a village in Maryland north of Frederick on top of the
                > Catoctin Mountains through which a road ran. ("OR Atlas" 27, 1)
                > Carman on p. 175 says that Hamburg Pass is there while Harsh (and
                > Ripley) say it is about three miles north of Turner's Pass through
                > South Mountain.
                >
                > One officer in the 9th Virginia Cavalry, one of F. Lee's regiments,
                > commented that "Hamburg was a rude and scattering village on the
                > crest of the mountain, where the manufacture of brandy seemed to be
                > the chief employment of the villagers, and at the early hour of our
                > passage through the place, both the men and women gave proof that
                > they were free imbibers of the product of their stills. It was not
                > easy to find a sober inhabitant of either sex," Beale, "A
                Lieutenant
                > Of Cavalry in Lee's Army."
                >
                > Harsh discussed Hamburg Pass, "Flood," 248, 257. Did Harsh (or
                > Carman) confuse the Hamburg Pass in the Catoctin Mountains for a
                pass
                > in South Mountain. See Brig. Gen. Ripley's report using "Hamburg
                > Pass" for the pass north of Boonsboro in South Mountain: "OR," vol.
                > 19, pt. 1, 1031.
                >
                > What seems to be certain that there was then (just a few
                foundations
                > remain) a place called Hamburg on Catoctin Mountain through which a
                > road traversed the mountain. It is also certain that there was a
                pass
                > some three miles north of Turner's Gap. Was Ripley and therefore
                > Harsh using Ripley confused or was Carman wrong? Or did a road then
                > run from Hamburg thru the pass in S. Mountain. It is possible that
                > both passes had the same name but that seems very unlikely.
                >
                > Is the pass in S. Mountain three miles north of Turner's Gap the
                one
                > through which Rt. 40 and I70 are located? Is this pass where the
                old
                > stage road from Frederick to Hagerstown passed? IIRC Tom Clemens
                > mentioned this. I assume that Fitz Lee's troopers used the pass in
                S.
                > Mountain to get to Boonsboro after leaving Hamburg and I'd like to
                > know its name.
                >
                > I appreciate any comments especially referring to sources. Has
                anyone
                > been thru Hamburg?
                >
                > Larry F.
                >
              • eighth_conn_inf
                Stephen, I know you don t want to keep Tom and I in suspense so is Hamburg Pass only at the town of Hamburg and Orr s Gap the one 3 miles north of Turner s Gap
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 1, 2009
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                  Stephen,

                  I know you don't want to keep Tom and I in suspense so is Hamburg
                  Pass only at the town of Hamburg and Orr's Gap the one 3 miles north
                  of Turner's Gap in South Mountain?

                  Larry

                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > The best source I have seen for the back-story on South Mountain
                  names
                  > is Curtis Older's "The Braddock Expedition and Fox's Gap in
                  Maryland."
                  > I have only found two for sale anywhere, and they were in the
                  Frederick
                  > County HS book store. I bought one and there was one more left.
                  Amazing
                  > book. He mentions Hamburg Pass, mostly when referencing D.H. Hill.
                  But
                  > he puts it in a context that may shed some light. He also mentions
                  > Orr's Gap and John Orr.
                  >
                  > Stephen
                  >
                  >
                  > On Sunday, March 1, 2009, at 12:29 PM, eighth_conn_inf wrote:
                  >
                  > > Tom,
                  > >
                  > > Thank you for your insight. I know that since you worked with Dr.
                  > > Harsh that you likely knew about this relatively minor point.
                  > >
                  > > Perhaps someone at the Frederick County HS or Washington County
                  might
                  > > be able to point me to something.
                  > >
                  > > In Paula M. Strain's "The Blue Hills of Maryland" she mentions
                  > > Hamburg as "a ghost town on top of Catoctin Mountain near Gambrill
                  > > State Park. It was never plotted officially but, at late as 1892,
                  > > several houses stood near the crossroads. Even earlier, there was
                  a
                  > > tavern there. Now only the ruins of the Hamburg fire-tower mark
                  the
                  > > village,"
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Brian Richardson
                  Larry - There is a Hamburg Road that intersects Gambrill Park Road about 4 miles north of Route 40 in the Catoctin range. Is that the crossroads that Paula
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 1, 2009
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                    Larry -

                    There is a Hamburg Road that intersects Gambrill Park Road about 4
                    miles north of Route 40 in the Catoctin range. Is that the crossroads
                    that Paula Strain refers to? Hamburg Road runs generally southeast
                    from there and joins Yellow Springs Road northwest of Frederick.
                    There isn't a direct route from the Hamburg Road/Gambrill Park Road
                    intersection to Hamburg Pass on South Mountain today. Weather
                    permitting I'll go poke around there in the next day or two and let
                    you know if I find anything.

                    Best regards,

                    Brian Richardson



                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                    <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Tom,
                    >
                    > Thank you for your insight. I know that since you worked with Dr.
                    > Harsh that you likely knew about this relatively minor point.
                    >
                    > Perhaps someone at the Frederick County HS or Washington County
                    might
                    > be able to point me to something.
                    >
                    > In Paula M. Strain's "The Blue Hills of Maryland" she mentions
                    > Hamburg as "a ghost town on top of Catoctin Mountain near Gambrill
                    > State Park. It was never plotted officially but, at late as 1892,
                    > several houses stood near the crossroads. Even earlier, there was a
                    > tavern there. Now only the ruins of the Hamburg fire-tower mark the
                    > village," 272.
                    >
                    > She also writes about the Hagerstown-Frederick trolley which ran
                    thru
                    > Myersville then thru S. Mountain at "Orr's Gap" then to what was
                    then
                    > called Smoketown (now Mt. Lena), 204.
                    >
                    > She discusses Orr's Gap at some length (201-203) positing that this
                    > gap, three miles north Turner's Gap, through a sag between
                    Bartman's
                    > Hill and Pine Knob, has been known by three names in the last 250
                    > years: Orr's Gap, Hamburg Pass, and Trolley-Line Gap. She believes
                    > that the Orr's Gap name faded by the time of the CW so the pass was
                    > unnamed (by D. H. Hill) or incorrectly named "Hamburg Pass" by
                    > Ripley. But she implies that that name stuck since no one disputed
                    > it. "Ripley's assignment of the name of a village ten miles east on
                    > Catoctin Mountain to little Orr's Gap, has led a number of Civil
                    War
                    > historians unfamiliar with Maryland to repeat his mistake, making
                    > Hamburg Pass the second name Orr's has been called," 201-202.
                    >
                    > She could not find any reason for the name "Orr" in land records,
                    > etc., so she says that is likely why the name faded. As we know,
                    the
                    > names of places by CW troops unfamiliar with the area can be
                    > misleading and almost certainly by spelling. Perhaps here, Ripley
                    > talked to a civilian or a soldier familiar with the area and was
                    told
                    > that the road thru the gap leads to Hamburg so for identification,
                    he
                    > simply called it Hamburg Pass.
                    >
                    > Based on her research, I will call it "Orr's Gap" with, of course,
                    a
                    > footnote re Harsh, Ripley, Carman, and that the road thru there
                    also
                    > led to Hamburg, among other places east.
                    >
                    > Larry
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi Larry,
                    > > I am aware of the dual usage of Hamburg pass. I cannot say that
                    I
                    > have anything concrete on the supposition I am about to state, but
                    it
                    > was the thinking of Joe Harsh when he wrote the book and does make
                    a
                    > sort of sense. I think the pass in South Mt. is called Hamburg
                    pass
                    > because it leads to the town of Hamburg, even though it is across
                    the
                    > valley and on top of Catoctin Mt. It makes sense and if we think
                    > about it Brownsville Pass leads across South Mt. to Brownsville;
                    the
                    > town is not on top of the gap. And yes, it is my understanding
                    that
                    > it is the gap where I-70 and "new" 40 run across the mountain. I
                    > think in the Battlefield Board letters another trooper mentions
                    > crossing South Mt. at Hamburg Pass, but I don't havethat in front
                    of
                    > me right now. I can look it up if you need it.
                    > > You're doing good work, and I look forward to seeing it in print
                    > sometime soon.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                    > > Professor of History
                    > > Hagerstown Community College
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@> 02/28/09 4:54 PM >>>
                    > > Hamburg was a village in Maryland north of Frederick on top of
                    the
                    > > Catoctin Mountains through which a road ran. ("OR Atlas" 27, 1)
                    > > Carman on p. 175 says that Hamburg Pass is there while Harsh (and
                    > > Ripley) say it is about three miles north of Turner's Pass
                    through
                    > > South Mountain.
                    > >
                    > > One officer in the 9th Virginia Cavalry, one of F. Lee's
                    regiments,
                    > > commented that "Hamburg was a rude and scattering village on the
                    > > crest of the mountain, where the manufacture of brandy seemed to
                    be
                    > > the chief employment of the villagers, and at the early hour of
                    our
                    > > passage through the place, both the men and women gave proof that
                    > > they were free imbibers of the product of their stills. It was
                    not
                    > > easy to find a sober inhabitant of either sex," Beale, "A
                    > Lieutenant
                    > > Of Cavalry in Lee's Army."
                    > >
                    > > Harsh discussed Hamburg Pass, "Flood," 248, 257. Did Harsh (or
                    > > Carman) confuse the Hamburg Pass in the Catoctin Mountains for a
                    > pass
                    > > in South Mountain. See Brig. Gen. Ripley's report using "Hamburg
                    > > Pass" for the pass north of Boonsboro in South Mountain: "OR,"
                    vol.
                    > > 19, pt. 1, 1031.
                    > >
                    > > What seems to be certain that there was then (just a few
                    > foundations
                    > > remain) a place called Hamburg on Catoctin Mountain through which
                    a
                    > > road traversed the mountain. It is also certain that there was a
                    > pass
                    > > some three miles north of Turner's Gap. Was Ripley and therefore
                    > > Harsh using Ripley confused or was Carman wrong? Or did a road
                    then
                    > > run from Hamburg thru the pass in S. Mountain. It is possible
                    that
                    > > both passes had the same name but that seems very unlikely.
                    > >
                    > > Is the pass in S. Mountain three miles north of Turner's Gap the
                    > one
                    > > through which Rt. 40 and I70 are located? Is this pass where the
                    > old
                    > > stage road from Frederick to Hagerstown passed? IIRC Tom Clemens
                    > > mentioned this. I assume that Fitz Lee's troopers used the pass
                    in
                    > S.
                    > > Mountain to get to Boonsboro after leaving Hamburg and I'd like
                    to
                    > > know its name.
                    > >
                    > > I appreciate any comments especially referring to sources. Has
                    > anyone
                    > > been thru Hamburg?
                    > >
                    > > Larry F.
                    > >
                    >
                  • Stephen Recker
                    I don t really have time to get my head around all of this right now, but will give you a taste. Page 135: A map, dated April 5, 1791, of the Road from
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 2, 2009
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                      I don't really have time to get my head around all of this right now,
                      but will give you a taste.

                      Page 135: "A map, dated April 5, 1791, of the Road from Elizabethtown
                      to Newcomber's Mill and Frederick County Line is in the Maryland
                      Archives. This map identifies Orr's gap as Braddock's Gap. Conrad
                      Hogmire, Daniel Winder and an unknown individual signed the map. It
                      show's John Orr's house about one mile northwest of the gap in South
                      Mountain. Stull's appears near a bridge, about one mile from the market
                      House in Elizabethtown [Hagerstown]. The map includes the courses of
                      the route similar to a land tract record. However, these measurements
                      are difficult to read.

                      The 1794 Dennis Griffith Map of Maryland shows a road from Boonsboro
                      towards South Mountain and the are of Turner's Gap. The map shows a
                      location entitled Orrs just northwest of the gap in the mountain. It
                      seems probable a traveler from Frederick Town to Conococheague
                      [Williamsport] passing through Orr's Gap would pass through the area
                      that became Hagerstown.

                      The Varle Map of 1808 show's Braddock's Gap on the old Hagerstown Road
                      from Frederick Town. This gap is also known as Orr's Gap."

                      These are snippets.

                      What I learned from this book is that, heading west on Alt40, just
                      before South Mountain, the Civil War roads turn left and right at
                      Bolivar Road and Mt. Tabor Road, respectively. The earlier roads left
                      alt40 about a mile east of that spot, at Marker Road (the original
                      route to Fox's gap) and the Old Hagerstown Road (to the right). Pull up
                      Google and you can see all of these roads.

                      Stephen






                      On Sunday, March 1, 2009, at 09:41 PM, eighth_conn_inf wrote:

                      > Stephen,
                      >
                      > I know you don't want to keep Tom and I in suspense so is Hamburg
                      > Pass only at the town of Hamburg and Orr's Gap the one 3 miles north
                      > of Turner's Gap in South Mountain?

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • eighth_conn_inf
                      Stephen, Thank you for your efforts. From what you found, looks like the gap 3 miles north of Turner s Gap was called Orr s Gap which became Hamburg Pass
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 2, 2009
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                        Stephen,

                        Thank you for your efforts. From what you found, looks like the gap 3
                        miles north of Turner's Gap was called Orr's Gap which became Hamburg
                        Pass thanks to Ripley et all during the CW. "Braddock's Gap" may
                        have, over the years, referred to more than one gap?

                        Larry


                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > I don't really have time to get my head around all of this right
                        now,
                        > but will give you a taste.
                        >
                        > Page 135: "A map, dated April 5, 1791, of the Road from
                        Elizabethtown
                        > to Newcomber's Mill and Frederick County Line is in the Maryland
                        > Archives. This map identifies Orr's gap as Braddock's Gap. Conrad
                        > Hogmire, Daniel Winder and an unknown individual signed the map. It
                        > show's John Orr's house about one mile northwest of the gap in
                        South
                        > Mountain. Stull's appears near a bridge, about one mile from the
                        market
                        > House in Elizabethtown [Hagerstown]. The map includes the courses
                        of
                        > the route similar to a land tract record. However, these
                        measurements
                        > are difficult to read.
                        >
                        > The 1794 Dennis Griffith Map of Maryland shows a road from
                        Boonsboro
                        > towards South Mountain and the are of Turner's Gap. The map shows a
                        > location entitled Orrs just northwest of the gap in the mountain.
                        It
                        > seems probable a traveler from Frederick Town to Conococheague
                        > [Williamsport] passing through Orr's Gap would pass through the
                        area
                        > that became Hagerstown.
                        >
                        > The Varle Map of 1808 show's Braddock's Gap on the old Hagerstown
                        Road
                        > from Frederick Town. This gap is also known as Orr's Gap."
                        >
                        > These are snippets.
                        >
                        > What I learned from this book is that, heading west on Alt40, just
                        > before South Mountain, the Civil War roads turn left and right at
                        > Bolivar Road and Mt. Tabor Road, respectively. The earlier roads
                        left
                        > alt40 about a mile east of that spot, at Marker Road (the original
                        > route to Fox's gap) and the Old Hagerstown Road (to the right).
                        Pull up
                        > Google and you can see all of these roads.
                        >
                        > Stephen
                        >
                      • eighth_conn_inf
                        Brian, Thank you for your efforts. We have no snow here in Morgan County WV so far today (Monday 3/2) but it is very cold--16 this morning and windy--forecast
                        Message 11 of 12 , Mar 2, 2009
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                          Brian,

                          Thank you for your efforts. We have no snow here in Morgan County WV
                          so far today (Monday 3/2) but it is very cold--16 this morning and
                          windy--forecast for later in the week is much better.

                          That is likely the cross road. I have a copy of a mid 1800's map
                          showing the village and that there was a road along the top of the
                          Catoctin Mountains probably now the Gambrill Park Rd. The map does
                          not show a road or roads west towards Orr's Gap (Ripley's Hamburg
                          Pass). Then, as now, looks like a traveller going west would take
                          roundabout roads to Myersville then the road to Hagerstown thru Orr's
                          Gap where today I70 and Rt 40 pass. All this makes it difficult to
                          understand how Ripley named the gap in S. Mountain "Hamburg Pass."

                          Another reference I found by Louis O'Donoghue says that "Hamburg is a
                          village, located 2.5 miles northeast of Harmony on top of Catoctin
                          Mountain at an elevation of 1610' possibly named for the Hamburg
                          family who lived in Frederick County about 1800. It was considered a
                          ghost town as it was never platted; foundations can still be found."
                          If you find the ruins of the Hamburg fire-tower perhaps the
                          foundations of some homes are nearby.

                          Larry

                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Richardson"
                          <BrianSRich@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Larry -
                          >
                          > There is a Hamburg Road that intersects Gambrill Park Road about 4
                          > miles north of Route 40 in the Catoctin range. Is that the
                          crossroads
                          > that Paula Strain refers to? Hamburg Road runs generally southeast
                          > from there and joins Yellow Springs Road northwest of Frederick.
                          > There isn't a direct route from the Hamburg Road/Gambrill Park Road
                          > intersection to Hamburg Pass on South Mountain today. Weather
                          > permitting I'll go poke around there in the next day or two and let
                          > you know if I find anything.
                          >
                          > Best regards,
                          >
                          > Brian Richardson
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                          > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Tom,
                          > >
                          > > Thank you for your insight. I know that since you worked with Dr.
                          > > Harsh that you likely knew about this relatively minor point.
                          > >
                          > > Perhaps someone at the Frederick County HS or Washington County
                          > might
                          > > be able to point me to something.
                          > >
                          > > In Paula M. Strain's "The Blue Hills of Maryland" she mentions
                          > > Hamburg as "a ghost town on top of Catoctin Mountain near
                          Gambrill
                          > > State Park. It was never plotted officially but, at late as 1892,
                          > > several houses stood near the crossroads. Even earlier, there was
                          a
                          > > tavern there. Now only the ruins of the Hamburg fire-tower mark
                          the
                          > > village," 272.
                          > >
                          > > She also writes about the Hagerstown-Frederick trolley which ran
                          > thru
                          > > Myersville then thru S. Mountain at "Orr's Gap" then to what was
                          > then
                          > > called Smoketown (now Mt. Lena), 204.
                          > >
                          > > She discusses Orr's Gap at some length (201-203) positing that
                          this
                          > > gap, three miles north Turner's Gap, through a sag between
                          > Bartman's
                          > > Hill and Pine Knob, has been known by three names in the last 250
                          > > years: Orr's Gap, Hamburg Pass, and Trolley-Line Gap. She
                          believes
                          > > that the Orr's Gap name faded by the time of the CW so the pass
                          was
                          > > unnamed (by D. H. Hill) or incorrectly named "Hamburg Pass" by
                          > > Ripley. But she implies that that name stuck since no one
                          disputed
                          > > it. "Ripley's assignment of the name of a village ten miles east
                          on
                          > > Catoctin Mountain to little Orr's Gap, has led a number of Civil
                          > War
                          > > historians unfamiliar with Maryland to repeat his mistake, making
                          > > Hamburg Pass the second name Orr's has been called," 201-202.
                          > >
                          > > She could not find any reason for the name "Orr" in land records,
                          > > etc., so she says that is likely why the name faded. As we know,
                          > the
                          > > names of places by CW troops unfamiliar with the area can be
                          > > misleading and almost certainly by spelling. Perhaps here, Ripley
                          > > talked to a civilian or a soldier familiar with the area and was
                          > told
                          > > that the road thru the gap leads to Hamburg so for
                          identification,
                          > he
                          > > simply called it Hamburg Pass.
                          > >
                          > > Based on her research, I will call it "Orr's Gap" with, of
                          course,
                          > a
                          > > footnote re Harsh, Ripley, Carman, and that the road thru there
                          > also
                          > > led to Hamburg, among other places east.
                          > >
                          > > Larry
                          > >
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