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Hamburg Passes?

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  • eighth_conn_inf
    Hamburg was a village in Maryland north of Frederick on top of the Catoctin Mountains through which a road ran. ( OR Atlas 27, 1) Carman on p. 175 says that
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 28, 2009
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      Hamburg was a village in Maryland north of Frederick on top of the
      Catoctin Mountains through which a road ran. ("OR Atlas" 27, 1)
      Carman on p. 175 says that Hamburg Pass is there while Harsh (and
      Ripley) say it is about three miles north of Turner's Pass through
      South Mountain.

      One officer in the 9th Virginia Cavalry, one of F. Lee's regiments,
      commented that "Hamburg was a rude and scattering village on the
      crest of the mountain, where the manufacture of brandy seemed to be
      the chief employment of the villagers, and at the early hour of our
      passage through the place, both the men and women gave proof that
      they were free imbibers of the product of their stills. It was not
      easy to find a sober inhabitant of either sex," Beale, "A Lieutenant
      Of Cavalry in Lee's Army."

      Harsh discussed Hamburg Pass, "Flood," 248, 257. Did Harsh (or
      Carman) confuse the Hamburg Pass in the Catoctin Mountains for a pass
      in South Mountain. See Brig. Gen. Ripley's report using "Hamburg
      Pass" for the pass north of Boonsboro in South Mountain: "OR," vol.
      19, pt. 1, 1031.

      What seems to be certain that there was then (just a few foundations
      remain) a place called Hamburg on Catoctin Mountain through which a
      road traversed the mountain. It is also certain that there was a pass
      some three miles north of Turner's Gap. Was Ripley and therefore
      Harsh using Ripley confused or was Carman wrong? Or did a road then
      run from Hamburg thru the pass in S. Mountain. It is possible that
      both passes had the same name but that seems very unlikely.

      Is the pass in S. Mountain three miles north of Turner's Gap the one
      through which Rt. 40 and I70 are located? Is this pass where the old
      stage road from Frederick to Hagerstown passed? IIRC Tom Clemens
      mentioned this. I assume that Fitz Lee's troopers used the pass in S.
      Mountain to get to Boonsboro after leaving Hamburg and I'd like to
      know its name.

      I appreciate any comments especially referring to sources. Has anyone
      been thru Hamburg?

      Larry F.
    • Thomas Clemens
      Hi Larry, I am aware of the dual usage of Hamburg pass. I cannot say that I have anything concrete on the supposition I am about to state, but it was the
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 1, 2009
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        Hi Larry,
        I am aware of the dual usage of Hamburg pass. I cannot say that I have anything concrete on the supposition I am about to state, but it was the thinking of Joe Harsh when he wrote the book and does make a sort of sense. I think the pass in South Mt. is called Hamburg pass because it leads to the town of Hamburg, even though it is across the valley and on top of Catoctin Mt. It makes sense and if we think about it Brownsville Pass leads across South Mt. to Brownsville; the town is not on top of the gap. And yes, it is my understanding that it is the gap where I-70 and "new" 40 run across the mountain. I think in the Battlefield Board letters another trooper mentions crossing South Mt. at Hamburg Pass, but I don't havethat in front of me right now. I can look it up if you need it.
        You're doing good work, and I look forward to seeing it in print sometime soon.


        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        Professor of History
        Hagerstown Community College


        >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 02/28/09 4:54 PM >>>
        Hamburg was a village in Maryland north of Frederick on top of the
        Catoctin Mountains through which a road ran. ("OR Atlas" 27, 1)
        Carman on p. 175 says that Hamburg Pass is there while Harsh (and
        Ripley) say it is about three miles north of Turner's Pass through
        South Mountain.

        One officer in the 9th Virginia Cavalry, one of F. Lee's regiments,
        commented that "Hamburg was a rude and scattering village on the
        crest of the mountain, where the manufacture of brandy seemed to be
        the chief employment of the villagers, and at the early hour of our
        passage through the place, both the men and women gave proof that
        they were free imbibers of the product of their stills. It was not
        easy to find a sober inhabitant of either sex," Beale, "A Lieutenant
        Of Cavalry in Lee's Army."

        Harsh discussed Hamburg Pass, "Flood," 248, 257. Did Harsh (or
        Carman) confuse the Hamburg Pass in the Catoctin Mountains for a pass
        in South Mountain. See Brig. Gen. Ripley's report using "Hamburg
        Pass" for the pass north of Boonsboro in South Mountain: "OR," vol.
        19, pt. 1, 1031.

        What seems to be certain that there was then (just a few foundations
        remain) a place called Hamburg on Catoctin Mountain through which a
        road traversed the mountain. It is also certain that there was a pass
        some three miles north of Turner's Gap. Was Ripley and therefore
        Harsh using Ripley confused or was Carman wrong? Or did a road then
        run from Hamburg thru the pass in S. Mountain. It is possible that
        both passes had the same name but that seems very unlikely.

        Is the pass in S. Mountain three miles north of Turner's Gap the one
        through which Rt. 40 and I70 are located? Is this pass where the old
        stage road from Frederick to Hagerstown passed? IIRC Tom Clemens
        mentioned this. I assume that Fitz Lee's troopers used the pass in S.
        Mountain to get to Boonsboro after leaving Hamburg and I'd like to
        know its name.

        I appreciate any comments especially referring to sources. Has anyone
        been thru Hamburg?

        Larry F.
      • eighth_conn_inf
        Tom, Thank you for your insight. I know that since you worked with Dr. Harsh that you likely knew about this relatively minor point. Perhaps someone at the
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 1, 2009
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          Tom,

          Thank you for your insight. I know that since you worked with Dr.
          Harsh that you likely knew about this relatively minor point.

          Perhaps someone at the Frederick County HS or Washington County might
          be able to point me to something.

          In Paula M. Strain's "The Blue Hills of Maryland" she mentions
          Hamburg as "a ghost town on top of Catoctin Mountain near Gambrill
          State Park. It was never plotted officially but, at late as 1892,
          several houses stood near the crossroads. Even earlier, there was a
          tavern there. Now only the ruins of the Hamburg fire-tower mark the
          village," 272.

          She also writes about the Hagerstown-Frederick trolley which ran thru
          Myersville then thru S. Mountain at "Orr's Gap" then to what was then
          called Smoketown (now Mt. Lena), 204.

          She discusses Orr's Gap at some length (201-203) positing that this
          gap, three miles north Turner's Gap, through a sag between Bartman's
          Hill and Pine Knob, has been known by three names in the last 250
          years: Orr's Gap, Hamburg Pass, and Trolley-Line Gap. She believes
          that the Orr's Gap name faded by the time of the CW so the pass was
          unnamed (by D. H. Hill) or incorrectly named "Hamburg Pass" by
          Ripley. But she implies that that name stuck since no one disputed
          it. "Ripley's assignment of the name of a village ten miles east on
          Catoctin Mountain to little Orr's Gap, has led a number of Civil War
          historians unfamiliar with Maryland to repeat his mistake, making
          Hamburg Pass the second name Orr's has been called," 201-202.

          She could not find any reason for the name "Orr" in land records,
          etc., so she says that is likely why the name faded. As we know, the
          names of places by CW troops unfamiliar with the area can be
          misleading and almost certainly by spelling. Perhaps here, Ripley
          talked to a civilian or a soldier familiar with the area and was told
          that the road thru the gap leads to Hamburg so for identification, he
          simply called it Hamburg Pass.

          Based on her research, I will call it "Orr's Gap" with, of course, a
          footnote re Harsh, Ripley, Carman, and that the road thru there also
          led to Hamburg, among other places east.

          Larry


          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Hi Larry,
          > I am aware of the dual usage of Hamburg pass. I cannot say that I
          have anything concrete on the supposition I am about to state, but it
          was the thinking of Joe Harsh when he wrote the book and does make a
          sort of sense. I think the pass in South Mt. is called Hamburg pass
          because it leads to the town of Hamburg, even though it is across the
          valley and on top of Catoctin Mt. It makes sense and if we think
          about it Brownsville Pass leads across South Mt. to Brownsville; the
          town is not on top of the gap. And yes, it is my understanding that
          it is the gap where I-70 and "new" 40 run across the mountain. I
          think in the Battlefield Board letters another trooper mentions
          crossing South Mt. at Hamburg Pass, but I don't havethat in front of
          me right now. I can look it up if you need it.
          > You're doing good work, and I look forward to seeing it in print
          sometime soon.
          >
          >
          > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          > Professor of History
          > Hagerstown Community College
          >
          >
          > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 02/28/09 4:54 PM >>>
          > Hamburg was a village in Maryland north of Frederick on top of the
          > Catoctin Mountains through which a road ran. ("OR Atlas" 27, 1)
          > Carman on p. 175 says that Hamburg Pass is there while Harsh (and
          > Ripley) say it is about three miles north of Turner's Pass through
          > South Mountain.
          >
          > One officer in the 9th Virginia Cavalry, one of F. Lee's regiments,
          > commented that "Hamburg was a rude and scattering village on the
          > crest of the mountain, where the manufacture of brandy seemed to be
          > the chief employment of the villagers, and at the early hour of our
          > passage through the place, both the men and women gave proof that
          > they were free imbibers of the product of their stills. It was not
          > easy to find a sober inhabitant of either sex," Beale, "A
          Lieutenant
          > Of Cavalry in Lee's Army."
          >
          > Harsh discussed Hamburg Pass, "Flood," 248, 257. Did Harsh (or
          > Carman) confuse the Hamburg Pass in the Catoctin Mountains for a
          pass
          > in South Mountain. See Brig. Gen. Ripley's report using "Hamburg
          > Pass" for the pass north of Boonsboro in South Mountain: "OR," vol.
          > 19, pt. 1, 1031.
          >
          > What seems to be certain that there was then (just a few
          foundations
          > remain) a place called Hamburg on Catoctin Mountain through which a
          > road traversed the mountain. It is also certain that there was a
          pass
          > some three miles north of Turner's Gap. Was Ripley and therefore
          > Harsh using Ripley confused or was Carman wrong? Or did a road then
          > run from Hamburg thru the pass in S. Mountain. It is possible that
          > both passes had the same name but that seems very unlikely.
          >
          > Is the pass in S. Mountain three miles north of Turner's Gap the
          one
          > through which Rt. 40 and I70 are located? Is this pass where the
          old
          > stage road from Frederick to Hagerstown passed? IIRC Tom Clemens
          > mentioned this. I assume that Fitz Lee's troopers used the pass in
          S.
          > Mountain to get to Boonsboro after leaving Hamburg and I'd like to
          > know its name.
          >
          > I appreciate any comments especially referring to sources. Has
          anyone
          > been thru Hamburg?
          >
          > Larry F.
          >
        • Stephen Recker
          The best source I have seen for the back-story on South Mountain names is Curtis Older s The Braddock Expedition and Fox s Gap in Maryland. I have only found
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 1, 2009
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            The best source I have seen for the back-story on South Mountain names
            is Curtis Older's "The Braddock Expedition and Fox's Gap in Maryland."
            I have only found two for sale anywhere, and they were in the Frederick
            County HS book store. I bought one and there was one more left. Amazing
            book. He mentions Hamburg Pass, mostly when referencing D.H. Hill. But
            he puts it in a context that may shed some light. He also mentions
            Orr's Gap and John Orr.

            Stephen


            On Sunday, March 1, 2009, at 12:29 PM, eighth_conn_inf wrote:

            > Tom,
            >
            > Thank you for your insight. I know that since you worked with Dr.
            > Harsh that you likely knew about this relatively minor point.
            >
            > Perhaps someone at the Frederick County HS or Washington County might
            > be able to point me to something.
            >
            > In Paula M. Strain's "The Blue Hills of Maryland" she mentions
            > Hamburg as "a ghost town on top of Catoctin Mountain near Gambrill
            > State Park. It was never plotted officially but, at late as 1892,
            > several houses stood near the crossroads. Even earlier, there was a
            > tavern there. Now only the ruins of the Hamburg fire-tower mark the
            > village,"

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • eighth_conn_inf
            Stephen, Thanks for the tip! When I was in the bookstore last week, I don t remember seeing it but I will call tomorrow. If it is not there, could I borrow
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 1, 2009
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              Stephen,

              Thanks for the tip! When I was in the bookstore last week, I don't
              remember seeing it but I will call tomorrow. If it is not there,
              could I borrow yours or get the quotes from it?

              Larry

              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > The best source I have seen for the back-story on South Mountain
              names
              > is Curtis Older's "The Braddock Expedition and Fox's Gap in
              Maryland."
              > I have only found two for sale anywhere, and they were in the
              Frederick
              > County HS book store. I bought one and there was one more left.
              Amazing
              > book. He mentions Hamburg Pass, mostly when referencing D.H. Hill.
              But
              > he puts it in a context that may shed some light. He also mentions
              > Orr's Gap and John Orr.
              >
              > Stephen
              >
              >
              > On Sunday, March 1, 2009, at 12:29 PM, eighth_conn_inf wrote:
              >
              > > Tom,
              > >
              > > Thank you for your insight. I know that since you worked with Dr.
              > > Harsh that you likely knew about this relatively minor point.
              > >
              > > Perhaps someone at the Frederick County HS or Washington County
              might
              > > be able to point me to something.
              > >
              > > In Paula M. Strain's "The Blue Hills of Maryland" she mentions
              > > Hamburg as "a ghost town on top of Catoctin Mountain near Gambrill
              > > State Park. It was never plotted officially but, at late as 1892,
              > > several houses stood near the crossroads. Even earlier, there was
              a
              > > tavern there. Now only the ruins of the Hamburg fire-tower mark
              the
              > > village,"
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • eighth_conn_inf
              Stephen, Thanks for the tip! When I was in the bookstore last week, I don t remember seeing it but I just ordered it from Abe Books. Larry ... Hill. ...
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 1, 2009
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                Stephen,

                Thanks for the tip! When I was in the bookstore last week, I don't
                remember seeing it but I just ordered it from Abe Books.

                Larry
                >
                > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > The best source I have seen for the back-story on South Mountain
                > names
                > > is Curtis Older's "The Braddock Expedition and Fox's Gap in
                > Maryland."
                > > I have only found two for sale anywhere, and they were in the
                > Frederick
                > > County HS book store. I bought one and there was one more left.
                > Amazing
                > > book. He mentions Hamburg Pass, mostly when referencing D.H.
                Hill.
                > But
                > > he puts it in a context that may shed some light. He also
                mentions
                > > Orr's Gap and John Orr.
                > >
                > > Stephen
                > >
                > >
                > > On Sunday, March 1, 2009, at 12:29 PM, eighth_conn_inf wrote:
                > >
                > > > Tom,
                > > >
                > > > Thank you for your insight. I know that since you worked with
                Dr.
                > > > Harsh that you likely knew about this relatively minor point.
                > > >
                > > > Perhaps someone at the Frederick County HS or Washington County
                > might
                > > > be able to point me to something.
                > > >
                > > > In Paula M. Strain's "The Blue Hills of Maryland" she mentions
                > > > Hamburg as "a ghost town on top of Catoctin Mountain near
                Gambrill
                > > > State Park. It was never plotted officially but, at late as
                1892,
                > > > several houses stood near the crossroads. Even earlier, there
                was
                > a
                > > > tavern there. Now only the ruins of the Hamburg fire-tower mark
                > the
                > > > village,"
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
              • Thomas Clemens
                It sounds like you ve found the most logical explanation so far. Good job! I may borrow this for a footnote I am working on right now. Thanks. Thomas G.
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 1, 2009
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                  It sounds like you've found the most logical explanation so far. Good job! I may "borrow" this for a footnote I am working on right now.
                  Thanks.

                  Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  Professor of History
                  Hagerstown Community College


                  >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 03/01/09 12:29 PM >>>
                  Tom,

                  Thank you for your insight. I know that since you worked with Dr.
                  Harsh that you likely knew about this relatively minor point.

                  Perhaps someone at the Frederick County HS or Washington County might
                  be able to point me to something.

                  In Paula M. Strain's "The Blue Hills of Maryland" she mentions
                  Hamburg as "a ghost town on top of Catoctin Mountain near Gambrill
                  State Park. It was never plotted officially but, at late as 1892,
                  several houses stood near the crossroads. Even earlier, there was a
                  tavern there. Now only the ruins of the Hamburg fire-tower mark the
                  village," 272.

                  She also writes about the Hagerstown-Frederick trolley which ran thru
                  Myersville then thru S. Mountain at "Orr's Gap" then to what was then
                  called Smoketown (now Mt. Lena), 204.

                  She discusses Orr's Gap at some length (201-203) positing that this
                  gap, three miles north Turner's Gap, through a sag between Bartman's
                  Hill and Pine Knob, has been known by three names in the last 250
                  years: Orr's Gap, Hamburg Pass, and Trolley-Line Gap. She believes
                  that the Orr's Gap name faded by the time of the CW so the pass was
                  unnamed (by D. H. Hill) or incorrectly named "Hamburg Pass" by
                  Ripley. But she implies that that name stuck since no one disputed
                  it. "Ripley's assignment of the name of a village ten miles east on
                  Catoctin Mountain to little Orr's Gap, has led a number of Civil War
                  historians unfamiliar with Maryland to repeat his mistake, making
                  Hamburg Pass the second name Orr's has been called," 201-202.

                  She could not find any reason for the name "Orr" in land records,
                  etc., so she says that is likely why the name faded. As we know, the
                  names of places by CW troops unfamiliar with the area can be
                  misleading and almost certainly by spelling. Perhaps here, Ripley
                  talked to a civilian or a soldier familiar with the area and was told
                  that the road thru the gap leads to Hamburg so for identification, he
                  simply called it Hamburg Pass.

                  Based on her research, I will call it "Orr's Gap" with, of course, a
                  footnote re Harsh, Ripley, Carman, and that the road thru there also
                  led to Hamburg, among other places east.

                  Larry


                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Larry,
                  > I am aware of the dual usage of Hamburg pass. I cannot say that I
                  have anything concrete on the supposition I am about to state, but it
                  was the thinking of Joe Harsh when he wrote the book and does make a
                  sort of sense. I think the pass in South Mt. is called Hamburg pass
                  because it leads to the town of Hamburg, even though it is across the
                  valley and on top of Catoctin Mt. It makes sense and if we think
                  about it Brownsville Pass leads across South Mt. to Brownsville; the
                  town is not on top of the gap. And yes, it is my understanding that
                  it is the gap where I-70 and "new" 40 run across the mountain. I
                  think in the Battlefield Board letters another trooper mentions
                  crossing South Mt. at Hamburg Pass, but I don't havethat in front of
                  me right now. I can look it up if you need it.
                  > You're doing good work, and I look forward to seeing it in print
                  sometime soon.
                  >
                  >
                  > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  > Professor of History
                  > Hagerstown Community College
                  >
                  >
                  > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 02/28/09 4:54 PM >>>
                  > Hamburg was a village in Maryland north of Frederick on top of the
                  > Catoctin Mountains through which a road ran. ("OR Atlas" 27, 1)
                  > Carman on p. 175 says that Hamburg Pass is there while Harsh (and
                  > Ripley) say it is about three miles north of Turner's Pass through
                  > South Mountain.
                  >
                  > One officer in the 9th Virginia Cavalry, one of F. Lee's regiments,
                  > commented that "Hamburg was a rude and scattering village on the
                  > crest of the mountain, where the manufacture of brandy seemed to be
                  > the chief employment of the villagers, and at the early hour of our
                  > passage through the place, both the men and women gave proof that
                  > they were free imbibers of the product of their stills. It was not
                  > easy to find a sober inhabitant of either sex," Beale, "A
                  Lieutenant
                  > Of Cavalry in Lee's Army."
                  >
                  > Harsh discussed Hamburg Pass, "Flood," 248, 257. Did Harsh (or
                  > Carman) confuse the Hamburg Pass in the Catoctin Mountains for a
                  pass
                  > in South Mountain. See Brig. Gen. Ripley's report using "Hamburg
                  > Pass" for the pass north of Boonsboro in South Mountain: "OR," vol.
                  > 19, pt. 1, 1031.
                  >
                  > What seems to be certain that there was then (just a few
                  foundations
                  > remain) a place called Hamburg on Catoctin Mountain through which a
                  > road traversed the mountain. It is also certain that there was a
                  pass
                  > some three miles north of Turner's Gap. Was Ripley and therefore
                  > Harsh using Ripley confused or was Carman wrong? Or did a road then
                  > run from Hamburg thru the pass in S. Mountain. It is possible that
                  > both passes had the same name but that seems very unlikely.
                  >
                  > Is the pass in S. Mountain three miles north of Turner's Gap the
                  one
                  > through which Rt. 40 and I70 are located? Is this pass where the
                  old
                  > stage road from Frederick to Hagerstown passed? IIRC Tom Clemens
                  > mentioned this. I assume that Fitz Lee's troopers used the pass in
                  S.
                  > Mountain to get to Boonsboro after leaving Hamburg and I'd like to
                  > know its name.
                  >
                  > I appreciate any comments especially referring to sources. Has
                  anyone
                  > been thru Hamburg?
                  >
                  > Larry F.
                  >
                • eighth_conn_inf
                  Stephen, I know you don t want to keep Tom and I in suspense so is Hamburg Pass only at the town of Hamburg and Orr s Gap the one 3 miles north of Turner s Gap
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 1, 2009
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                    Stephen,

                    I know you don't want to keep Tom and I in suspense so is Hamburg
                    Pass only at the town of Hamburg and Orr's Gap the one 3 miles north
                    of Turner's Gap in South Mountain?

                    Larry

                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > The best source I have seen for the back-story on South Mountain
                    names
                    > is Curtis Older's "The Braddock Expedition and Fox's Gap in
                    Maryland."
                    > I have only found two for sale anywhere, and they were in the
                    Frederick
                    > County HS book store. I bought one and there was one more left.
                    Amazing
                    > book. He mentions Hamburg Pass, mostly when referencing D.H. Hill.
                    But
                    > he puts it in a context that may shed some light. He also mentions
                    > Orr's Gap and John Orr.
                    >
                    > Stephen
                    >
                    >
                    > On Sunday, March 1, 2009, at 12:29 PM, eighth_conn_inf wrote:
                    >
                    > > Tom,
                    > >
                    > > Thank you for your insight. I know that since you worked with Dr.
                    > > Harsh that you likely knew about this relatively minor point.
                    > >
                    > > Perhaps someone at the Frederick County HS or Washington County
                    might
                    > > be able to point me to something.
                    > >
                    > > In Paula M. Strain's "The Blue Hills of Maryland" she mentions
                    > > Hamburg as "a ghost town on top of Catoctin Mountain near Gambrill
                    > > State Park. It was never plotted officially but, at late as 1892,
                    > > several houses stood near the crossroads. Even earlier, there was
                    a
                    > > tavern there. Now only the ruins of the Hamburg fire-tower mark
                    the
                    > > village,"
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Brian Richardson
                    Larry - There is a Hamburg Road that intersects Gambrill Park Road about 4 miles north of Route 40 in the Catoctin range. Is that the crossroads that Paula
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 1, 2009
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                      Larry -

                      There is a Hamburg Road that intersects Gambrill Park Road about 4
                      miles north of Route 40 in the Catoctin range. Is that the crossroads
                      that Paula Strain refers to? Hamburg Road runs generally southeast
                      from there and joins Yellow Springs Road northwest of Frederick.
                      There isn't a direct route from the Hamburg Road/Gambrill Park Road
                      intersection to Hamburg Pass on South Mountain today. Weather
                      permitting I'll go poke around there in the next day or two and let
                      you know if I find anything.

                      Best regards,

                      Brian Richardson



                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                      <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Tom,
                      >
                      > Thank you for your insight. I know that since you worked with Dr.
                      > Harsh that you likely knew about this relatively minor point.
                      >
                      > Perhaps someone at the Frederick County HS or Washington County
                      might
                      > be able to point me to something.
                      >
                      > In Paula M. Strain's "The Blue Hills of Maryland" she mentions
                      > Hamburg as "a ghost town on top of Catoctin Mountain near Gambrill
                      > State Park. It was never plotted officially but, at late as 1892,
                      > several houses stood near the crossroads. Even earlier, there was a
                      > tavern there. Now only the ruins of the Hamburg fire-tower mark the
                      > village," 272.
                      >
                      > She also writes about the Hagerstown-Frederick trolley which ran
                      thru
                      > Myersville then thru S. Mountain at "Orr's Gap" then to what was
                      then
                      > called Smoketown (now Mt. Lena), 204.
                      >
                      > She discusses Orr's Gap at some length (201-203) positing that this
                      > gap, three miles north Turner's Gap, through a sag between
                      Bartman's
                      > Hill and Pine Knob, has been known by three names in the last 250
                      > years: Orr's Gap, Hamburg Pass, and Trolley-Line Gap. She believes
                      > that the Orr's Gap name faded by the time of the CW so the pass was
                      > unnamed (by D. H. Hill) or incorrectly named "Hamburg Pass" by
                      > Ripley. But she implies that that name stuck since no one disputed
                      > it. "Ripley's assignment of the name of a village ten miles east on
                      > Catoctin Mountain to little Orr's Gap, has led a number of Civil
                      War
                      > historians unfamiliar with Maryland to repeat his mistake, making
                      > Hamburg Pass the second name Orr's has been called," 201-202.
                      >
                      > She could not find any reason for the name "Orr" in land records,
                      > etc., so she says that is likely why the name faded. As we know,
                      the
                      > names of places by CW troops unfamiliar with the area can be
                      > misleading and almost certainly by spelling. Perhaps here, Ripley
                      > talked to a civilian or a soldier familiar with the area and was
                      told
                      > that the road thru the gap leads to Hamburg so for identification,
                      he
                      > simply called it Hamburg Pass.
                      >
                      > Based on her research, I will call it "Orr's Gap" with, of course,
                      a
                      > footnote re Harsh, Ripley, Carman, and that the road thru there
                      also
                      > led to Hamburg, among other places east.
                      >
                      > Larry
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi Larry,
                      > > I am aware of the dual usage of Hamburg pass. I cannot say that
                      I
                      > have anything concrete on the supposition I am about to state, but
                      it
                      > was the thinking of Joe Harsh when he wrote the book and does make
                      a
                      > sort of sense. I think the pass in South Mt. is called Hamburg
                      pass
                      > because it leads to the town of Hamburg, even though it is across
                      the
                      > valley and on top of Catoctin Mt. It makes sense and if we think
                      > about it Brownsville Pass leads across South Mt. to Brownsville;
                      the
                      > town is not on top of the gap. And yes, it is my understanding
                      that
                      > it is the gap where I-70 and "new" 40 run across the mountain. I
                      > think in the Battlefield Board letters another trooper mentions
                      > crossing South Mt. at Hamburg Pass, but I don't havethat in front
                      of
                      > me right now. I can look it up if you need it.
                      > > You're doing good work, and I look forward to seeing it in print
                      > sometime soon.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      > > Professor of History
                      > > Hagerstown Community College
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@> 02/28/09 4:54 PM >>>
                      > > Hamburg was a village in Maryland north of Frederick on top of
                      the
                      > > Catoctin Mountains through which a road ran. ("OR Atlas" 27, 1)
                      > > Carman on p. 175 says that Hamburg Pass is there while Harsh (and
                      > > Ripley) say it is about three miles north of Turner's Pass
                      through
                      > > South Mountain.
                      > >
                      > > One officer in the 9th Virginia Cavalry, one of F. Lee's
                      regiments,
                      > > commented that "Hamburg was a rude and scattering village on the
                      > > crest of the mountain, where the manufacture of brandy seemed to
                      be
                      > > the chief employment of the villagers, and at the early hour of
                      our
                      > > passage through the place, both the men and women gave proof that
                      > > they were free imbibers of the product of their stills. It was
                      not
                      > > easy to find a sober inhabitant of either sex," Beale, "A
                      > Lieutenant
                      > > Of Cavalry in Lee's Army."
                      > >
                      > > Harsh discussed Hamburg Pass, "Flood," 248, 257. Did Harsh (or
                      > > Carman) confuse the Hamburg Pass in the Catoctin Mountains for a
                      > pass
                      > > in South Mountain. See Brig. Gen. Ripley's report using "Hamburg
                      > > Pass" for the pass north of Boonsboro in South Mountain: "OR,"
                      vol.
                      > > 19, pt. 1, 1031.
                      > >
                      > > What seems to be certain that there was then (just a few
                      > foundations
                      > > remain) a place called Hamburg on Catoctin Mountain through which
                      a
                      > > road traversed the mountain. It is also certain that there was a
                      > pass
                      > > some three miles north of Turner's Gap. Was Ripley and therefore
                      > > Harsh using Ripley confused or was Carman wrong? Or did a road
                      then
                      > > run from Hamburg thru the pass in S. Mountain. It is possible
                      that
                      > > both passes had the same name but that seems very unlikely.
                      > >
                      > > Is the pass in S. Mountain three miles north of Turner's Gap the
                      > one
                      > > through which Rt. 40 and I70 are located? Is this pass where the
                      > old
                      > > stage road from Frederick to Hagerstown passed? IIRC Tom Clemens
                      > > mentioned this. I assume that Fitz Lee's troopers used the pass
                      in
                      > S.
                      > > Mountain to get to Boonsboro after leaving Hamburg and I'd like
                      to
                      > > know its name.
                      > >
                      > > I appreciate any comments especially referring to sources. Has
                      > anyone
                      > > been thru Hamburg?
                      > >
                      > > Larry F.
                      > >
                      >
                    • Stephen Recker
                      I don t really have time to get my head around all of this right now, but will give you a taste. Page 135: A map, dated April 5, 1791, of the Road from
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 2, 2009
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                        I don't really have time to get my head around all of this right now,
                        but will give you a taste.

                        Page 135: "A map, dated April 5, 1791, of the Road from Elizabethtown
                        to Newcomber's Mill and Frederick County Line is in the Maryland
                        Archives. This map identifies Orr's gap as Braddock's Gap. Conrad
                        Hogmire, Daniel Winder and an unknown individual signed the map. It
                        show's John Orr's house about one mile northwest of the gap in South
                        Mountain. Stull's appears near a bridge, about one mile from the market
                        House in Elizabethtown [Hagerstown]. The map includes the courses of
                        the route similar to a land tract record. However, these measurements
                        are difficult to read.

                        The 1794 Dennis Griffith Map of Maryland shows a road from Boonsboro
                        towards South Mountain and the are of Turner's Gap. The map shows a
                        location entitled Orrs just northwest of the gap in the mountain. It
                        seems probable a traveler from Frederick Town to Conococheague
                        [Williamsport] passing through Orr's Gap would pass through the area
                        that became Hagerstown.

                        The Varle Map of 1808 show's Braddock's Gap on the old Hagerstown Road
                        from Frederick Town. This gap is also known as Orr's Gap."

                        These are snippets.

                        What I learned from this book is that, heading west on Alt40, just
                        before South Mountain, the Civil War roads turn left and right at
                        Bolivar Road and Mt. Tabor Road, respectively. The earlier roads left
                        alt40 about a mile east of that spot, at Marker Road (the original
                        route to Fox's gap) and the Old Hagerstown Road (to the right). Pull up
                        Google and you can see all of these roads.

                        Stephen






                        On Sunday, March 1, 2009, at 09:41 PM, eighth_conn_inf wrote:

                        > Stephen,
                        >
                        > I know you don't want to keep Tom and I in suspense so is Hamburg
                        > Pass only at the town of Hamburg and Orr's Gap the one 3 miles north
                        > of Turner's Gap in South Mountain?

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • eighth_conn_inf
                        Stephen, Thank you for your efforts. From what you found, looks like the gap 3 miles north of Turner s Gap was called Orr s Gap which became Hamburg Pass
                        Message 11 of 12 , Mar 2, 2009
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                          Stephen,

                          Thank you for your efforts. From what you found, looks like the gap 3
                          miles north of Turner's Gap was called Orr's Gap which became Hamburg
                          Pass thanks to Ripley et all during the CW. "Braddock's Gap" may
                          have, over the years, referred to more than one gap?

                          Larry


                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > I don't really have time to get my head around all of this right
                          now,
                          > but will give you a taste.
                          >
                          > Page 135: "A map, dated April 5, 1791, of the Road from
                          Elizabethtown
                          > to Newcomber's Mill and Frederick County Line is in the Maryland
                          > Archives. This map identifies Orr's gap as Braddock's Gap. Conrad
                          > Hogmire, Daniel Winder and an unknown individual signed the map. It
                          > show's John Orr's house about one mile northwest of the gap in
                          South
                          > Mountain. Stull's appears near a bridge, about one mile from the
                          market
                          > House in Elizabethtown [Hagerstown]. The map includes the courses
                          of
                          > the route similar to a land tract record. However, these
                          measurements
                          > are difficult to read.
                          >
                          > The 1794 Dennis Griffith Map of Maryland shows a road from
                          Boonsboro
                          > towards South Mountain and the are of Turner's Gap. The map shows a
                          > location entitled Orrs just northwest of the gap in the mountain.
                          It
                          > seems probable a traveler from Frederick Town to Conococheague
                          > [Williamsport] passing through Orr's Gap would pass through the
                          area
                          > that became Hagerstown.
                          >
                          > The Varle Map of 1808 show's Braddock's Gap on the old Hagerstown
                          Road
                          > from Frederick Town. This gap is also known as Orr's Gap."
                          >
                          > These are snippets.
                          >
                          > What I learned from this book is that, heading west on Alt40, just
                          > before South Mountain, the Civil War roads turn left and right at
                          > Bolivar Road and Mt. Tabor Road, respectively. The earlier roads
                          left
                          > alt40 about a mile east of that spot, at Marker Road (the original
                          > route to Fox's gap) and the Old Hagerstown Road (to the right).
                          Pull up
                          > Google and you can see all of these roads.
                          >
                          > Stephen
                          >
                        • eighth_conn_inf
                          Brian, Thank you for your efforts. We have no snow here in Morgan County WV so far today (Monday 3/2) but it is very cold--16 this morning and windy--forecast
                          Message 12 of 12 , Mar 2, 2009
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                            Brian,

                            Thank you for your efforts. We have no snow here in Morgan County WV
                            so far today (Monday 3/2) but it is very cold--16 this morning and
                            windy--forecast for later in the week is much better.

                            That is likely the cross road. I have a copy of a mid 1800's map
                            showing the village and that there was a road along the top of the
                            Catoctin Mountains probably now the Gambrill Park Rd. The map does
                            not show a road or roads west towards Orr's Gap (Ripley's Hamburg
                            Pass). Then, as now, looks like a traveller going west would take
                            roundabout roads to Myersville then the road to Hagerstown thru Orr's
                            Gap where today I70 and Rt 40 pass. All this makes it difficult to
                            understand how Ripley named the gap in S. Mountain "Hamburg Pass."

                            Another reference I found by Louis O'Donoghue says that "Hamburg is a
                            village, located 2.5 miles northeast of Harmony on top of Catoctin
                            Mountain at an elevation of 1610' possibly named for the Hamburg
                            family who lived in Frederick County about 1800. It was considered a
                            ghost town as it was never platted; foundations can still be found."
                            If you find the ruins of the Hamburg fire-tower perhaps the
                            foundations of some homes are nearby.

                            Larry

                            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Richardson"
                            <BrianSRich@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Larry -
                            >
                            > There is a Hamburg Road that intersects Gambrill Park Road about 4
                            > miles north of Route 40 in the Catoctin range. Is that the
                            crossroads
                            > that Paula Strain refers to? Hamburg Road runs generally southeast
                            > from there and joins Yellow Springs Road northwest of Frederick.
                            > There isn't a direct route from the Hamburg Road/Gambrill Park Road
                            > intersection to Hamburg Pass on South Mountain today. Weather
                            > permitting I'll go poke around there in the next day or two and let
                            > you know if I find anything.
                            >
                            > Best regards,
                            >
                            > Brian Richardson
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                            > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Tom,
                            > >
                            > > Thank you for your insight. I know that since you worked with Dr.
                            > > Harsh that you likely knew about this relatively minor point.
                            > >
                            > > Perhaps someone at the Frederick County HS or Washington County
                            > might
                            > > be able to point me to something.
                            > >
                            > > In Paula M. Strain's "The Blue Hills of Maryland" she mentions
                            > > Hamburg as "a ghost town on top of Catoctin Mountain near
                            Gambrill
                            > > State Park. It was never plotted officially but, at late as 1892,
                            > > several houses stood near the crossroads. Even earlier, there was
                            a
                            > > tavern there. Now only the ruins of the Hamburg fire-tower mark
                            the
                            > > village," 272.
                            > >
                            > > She also writes about the Hagerstown-Frederick trolley which ran
                            > thru
                            > > Myersville then thru S. Mountain at "Orr's Gap" then to what was
                            > then
                            > > called Smoketown (now Mt. Lena), 204.
                            > >
                            > > She discusses Orr's Gap at some length (201-203) positing that
                            this
                            > > gap, three miles north Turner's Gap, through a sag between
                            > Bartman's
                            > > Hill and Pine Knob, has been known by three names in the last 250
                            > > years: Orr's Gap, Hamburg Pass, and Trolley-Line Gap. She
                            believes
                            > > that the Orr's Gap name faded by the time of the CW so the pass
                            was
                            > > unnamed (by D. H. Hill) or incorrectly named "Hamburg Pass" by
                            > > Ripley. But she implies that that name stuck since no one
                            disputed
                            > > it. "Ripley's assignment of the name of a village ten miles east
                            on
                            > > Catoctin Mountain to little Orr's Gap, has led a number of Civil
                            > War
                            > > historians unfamiliar with Maryland to repeat his mistake, making
                            > > Hamburg Pass the second name Orr's has been called," 201-202.
                            > >
                            > > She could not find any reason for the name "Orr" in land records,
                            > > etc., so she says that is likely why the name faded. As we know,
                            > the
                            > > names of places by CW troops unfamiliar with the area can be
                            > > misleading and almost certainly by spelling. Perhaps here, Ripley
                            > > talked to a civilian or a soldier familiar with the area and was
                            > told
                            > > that the road thru the gap leads to Hamburg so for
                            identification,
                            > he
                            > > simply called it Hamburg Pass.
                            > >
                            > > Based on her research, I will call it "Orr's Gap" with, of
                            course,
                            > a
                            > > footnote re Harsh, Ripley, Carman, and that the road thru there
                            > also
                            > > led to Hamburg, among other places east.
                            > >
                            > > Larry
                            > >
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