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Re: [TalkAntietam] Tower soutn of tower?

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  • Stephen Recker
    Tom, Is there a good time for me to stop by tomorrow? Stephen ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 22, 2009
      Tom,

      Is there a good time for me to stop by tomorrow?

      Stephen

      On Sunday, February 22, 2009, at 03:35 PM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

      > 1000 feet does not get us to the cemetery tower, but on the ridge near
      > there? Maybe a temporary tower for the photo? Would like to see the
      > photo.
      >
      > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      > Professor of History
      > Hagerstown Community College
      >
      > >>> Stephen Recker <recker@...> 02/22/09 2:04 PM >>>
      > I just bought an Antietam photo that was hard to identify because it
      > looks like it was taken from about 100 feet off the ground, 1000 feet
      > south of where the tower is today. It looks like somewhere around
      > 1880-90. I am not aware of any tower that was ever in that area. Any
      > thoughts? Thanks.
      >
      > Stephen
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ian Workman
      Could it have been taken by a hot air baloon. There were some in the area after the war. There were photos taken around Antietam Iron Works from a hot air
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 22, 2009
        Could it have been taken by a hot air baloon. There were some in the area
        after the war. There were photos taken around Antietam Iron Works from a hot
        air baloon.

        On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 7:07 PM, Stephen Recker <
        recker@...> wrote:

        > Tom,
        >
        > Is there a good time for me to stop by tomorrow?
        >
        > Stephen
        >
        > On Sunday, February 22, 2009, at 03:35 PM, Thomas Clemens wrote:
        >
        > > 1000 feet does not get us to the cemetery tower, but on the ridge near
        > > there? Maybe a temporary tower for the photo? Would like to see the
        > > photo.
        > >
        > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        > > Professor of History
        > > Hagerstown Community College
        > >
        > > >>> Stephen Recker <recker@...<recker%40virtualgettysburg.com>>
        > 02/22/09 2:04 PM >>>
        > > I just bought an Antietam photo that was hard to identify because it
        > > looks like it was taken from about 100 feet off the ground, 1000 feet
        > > south of where the tower is today. It looks like somewhere around
        > > 1880-90. I am not aware of any tower that was ever in that area. Any
        > > thoughts? Thanks.
        > >
        > > Stephen
        > >
        > >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Thomas Clemens
        Stop[ by where? Don t forget where I am this semester. Thomas G. Clemens D.A. Professor of History Hagerstown Community College ... Tom, Is there a good time
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 22, 2009
          Stop[ by where? Don't forget where I am this semester.


          Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          Professor of History
          Hagerstown Community College


          >>> Stephen Recker <recker@...> 02/22/09 7:07 PM >>>
          Tom,

          Is there a good time for me to stop by tomorrow?

          Stephen

          On Sunday, February 22, 2009, at 03:35 PM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

          > 1000 feet does not get us to the cemetery tower, but on the ridge near
          > there? Maybe a temporary tower for the photo? Would like to see the
          > photo.
          >
          > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          > Professor of History
          > Hagerstown Community College
          >
          > >>> Stephen Recker <recker@...> 02/22/09 2:04 PM >>>
          > I just bought an Antietam photo that was hard to identify because it
          > looks like it was taken from about 100 feet off the ground, 1000 feet
          > south of where the tower is today. It looks like somewhere around
          > 1880-90. I am not aware of any tower that was ever in that area. Any
          > thoughts? Thanks.
          >
          > Stephen
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Stephen Recker
          Da ohh. Never mind. ;-) Stephen ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 22, 2009
            Da'ohh. Never mind.

            ;-)

            Stephen

            On Sunday, February 22, 2009, at 08:03 PM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

            > Stop[ by where? Don't forget where I am this semester.
            >
            > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            > Professor of History
            > Hagerstown Community College
            >
            > >>> Stephen Recker <recker@...> 02/22/09 7:07 PM >>>
            > Tom,
            >
            > Is there a good time for me to stop by tomorrow?
            >
            > Stephen
            >
            > On Sunday, February 22, 2009, at 03:35 PM, Thomas Clemens wrote:
            >
            > > 1000 feet does not get us to the cemetery tower, but on the ridge
            > near
            > > there? Maybe a temporary tower for the photo? Would like to see the
            > > photo.
            > >
            > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            > > Professor of History
            > > Hagerstown Community College
            > >
            > > >>> Stephen Recker <recker@...> 02/22/09 2:04 PM
            > >>>
            > > I just bought an Antietam photo that was hard to identify because it
            > > looks like it was taken from about 100 feet off the ground, 1000 feet
            > > south of where the tower is today. It looks like somewhere around
            > > 1880-90. I am not aware of any tower that was ever in that area. Any
            > > thoughts? Thanks.
            > >
            > > Stephen
            > >
            > >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Stephen Recker
            That s what I thought. When were they taken? Thanks. Stephen ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 22, 2009
              That's what I thought. When were they taken? Thanks.

              Stephen

              On Sunday, February 22, 2009, at 07:46 PM, Ian Workman wrote:

              > Could it have been taken by a hot air baloon. There were some in the
              > area
              > after the war. There were photos taken around Antietam Iron Works from
              > a hot
              > air baloon.


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Dave
              Thanks for that article, Larry, and the shavetail story Tom. After doing a little looking around, it seems that the only book addressing the old army mule is
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 22, 2009
                Thanks for that article, Larry, and the shavetail story Tom. After
                doing a little looking around, it seems that the only book addressing
                the old army mule is *
                <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0803267401/ref=ord_cart_shr?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>*"Shavetails
                and Bell Sharps: The History of the U.S. Army Mule" by Essin (The bell
                sharp was a white or dun mare they used to lead the mules, wearing a
                bell).

                A lot of the literature addresses pack mules, which is not so applicable
                to the ACW. My feeling is that the use of mules for pulling wagons was
                an expedient for the war, and didn't go far beyond that. There is
                fodder here for a book or at least a long article, mules were key to the
                logistics of both armies. The problem was that not many people thought
                about writing about them, because they were as common as Fords.

                I've owned a mule. They can kick in a 360 degree arc with their back
                hooves. I never want another one, green, raw or well done.

                Dave McGowan

                eighth_conn_inf wrote:
                >
                > Dave,
                >
                > Looks like you are correct that "raw" or "green" means a mule (or
                > even a soldier) which is untrained. Billings didn't use either of
                > these is his delightful chapter on mules in his book "Hardtack and
                > Coffee" but I found the following which mentions "raw mule" a couple
                > of times and comments on training them, from
                >
                > "ARMY LIFE; FROM A SOLDIER'S JOURNAL
                > INCIDENTS, SKETCHES AND RECORD OF A UNION
                > SOLDIER'S ARMY LIFE, IN CAMP AND FIELD; 1861-64"
                >
                >
                > My guess is that, depending on the context, "raw or green mule" could
                > also refer to uncooked mule, probably not a gourmet treat.
                >
                > If you find more, please let us know.
                >
                > Larry F.
                >
                > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>, Dave <gewehr@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Came across the term "raw mule" in the OR. Is this an unbroken
                > mule?
                > > Same as a "green mule"?
                > >
                > > Anyone know how long it took to make the mule "unraw"? GH Thomas
                > writes
                > > that it will take a "long time" on the march to do this.
                > >
                > > From the Battle of Mill Springs, not Antietam (but applicable, I
                > > guess). Thanks for any help.
                > >
                > > Dave McGowan
                > >
                >
                >
              • G E Mayers
                Where is Tom C this semester anyway? Too bad there is no weblink Steve to the photo. Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth,
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 22, 2009
                  Where is Tom C this semester anyway?

                  Too bad there is no weblink Steve to the photo.

                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 8:54 PM
                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Tower soutn of tower?


                  > That's what I thought. When were they taken? Thanks.
                  >
                  > Stephen
                  >
                  > On Sunday, February 22, 2009, at 07:46 PM, Ian Workman wrote:
                  >
                  >> Could it have been taken by a hot air baloon. There were some
                  >> in the
                  >> area
                  >> after the war. There were photos taken around Antietam Iron
                  >> Works from
                  >> a hot
                  >> air baloon.
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                • Ian Workman
                  As far as I know the photos that were taken from the hot air balloon were in the 1880 s. Does this sound right. I have also seen familiar ones from South
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 22, 2009
                    As far as I know the photos that were taken from the hot air balloon were
                    in the 1880's. Does this sound right. I have also seen familiar ones from
                    South Mountain overlooking the valley. Does anyone know who was doing this?

                    Ian

                    On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 9:31 PM, G E Mayers <gerry1952@...> wrote:

                    > Where is Tom C this semester anyway?
                    >
                    > Too bad there is no weblink Steve to the photo.
                    >
                    > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                    >
                    > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                    > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...<recker%40virtualgettysburg.com>
                    > >
                    > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com <TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>>
                    > Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 8:54 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Tower soutn of tower?
                    >
                    > > That's what I thought. When were they taken? Thanks.
                    > >
                    > > Stephen
                    > >
                    > > On Sunday, February 22, 2009, at 07:46 PM, Ian Workman wrote:
                    > >
                    > >> Could it have been taken by a hot air baloon. There were some
                    > >> in the
                    > >> area
                    > >> after the war. There were photos taken around Antietam Iron
                    > >> Works from
                    > >> a hot
                    > >> air baloon.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • eighth_conn_inf
                    Dave, I looked at the book on Amazon and the table of contents shows one chapter on the CW. Do you have the book and if so, is the material on the CW worth
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 23, 2009
                      Dave,

                      I looked at the book on Amazon and the table of contents shows one
                      chapter on the CW. Do you have the book and if so, is the material on
                      the CW worth buying it?

                      Thank you,
                      Larry


                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Dave <gewehr@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Thanks for that article, Larry, and the shavetail story Tom. After
                      > doing a little looking around, it seems that the only book
                      addressing
                      > the old army mule is *
                      > <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-
                      /0803267401/ref=ord_cart_shr?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>*"Shavetails
                      > and Bell Sharps: The History of the U.S. Army Mule" by Essin (The
                      bell
                      > sharp was a white or dun mare they used to lead the mules, wearing
                      a
                      > bell).
                      >
                      > A lot of the literature addresses pack mules, which is not so
                      applicable
                      > to the ACW. My feeling is that the use of mules for pulling wagons
                      was
                      > an expedient for the war, and didn't go far beyond that. There is
                      > fodder here for a book or at least a long article, mules were key
                      to the
                      > logistics of both armies. The problem was that not many people
                      thought
                      > about writing about them, because they were as common as Fords.
                      >
                      > I've owned a mule. They can kick in a 360 degree arc with their
                      back
                      > hooves. I never want another one, green, raw or well done.
                      >
                      > Dave McGowan
                      >
                      > eighth_conn_inf wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Dave,
                      > >
                      > > Looks like you are correct that "raw" or "green" means a mule (or
                      > > even a soldier) which is untrained. Billings didn't use either of
                      > > these is his delightful chapter on mules in his book "Hardtack and
                      > > Coffee" but I found the following which mentions "raw mule" a
                      couple
                      > > of times and comments on training them, from
                      > >
                      > > "ARMY LIFE; FROM A SOLDIER'S JOURNAL
                      > > INCIDENTS, SKETCHES AND RECORD OF A UNION
                      > > SOLDIER'S ARMY LIFE, IN CAMP AND FIELD; 1861-64"
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > My guess is that, depending on the context, "raw or green mule"
                      could
                      > > also refer to uncooked mule, probably not a gourmet treat.
                      > >
                      > > If you find more, please let us know.
                      > >
                      > > Larry F.
                      > >
                      > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      > > <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>, Dave <gewehr@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Came across the term "raw mule" in the OR. Is this an unbroken
                      > > mule?
                      > > > Same as a "green mule"?
                      > > >
                      > > > Anyone know how long it took to make the mule "unraw"? GH Thomas
                      > > writes
                      > > > that it will take a "long time" on the march to do this.
                      > > >
                      > > > From the Battle of Mill Springs, not Antietam (but applicable, I
                      > > > guess). Thanks for any help.
                      > > >
                      > > > Dave McGowan
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Dave
                      Larry, I don t have the book, and I don t think it s worth buying either. The problem is the pack mule coverage of recent vintage, which of course is easier
                      Message 10 of 15 , Feb 23, 2009
                        Larry, I don't have the book, and I don't think it's worth buying
                        either. The problem is the pack mule coverage of recent vintage, which
                        of course is easier to research and is more time-relevant. My guess is
                        that after going through all the material on mules in the OR, diaries,
                        and other ACW sources, you would have to find a mule guy who actually
                        breaks and trains mules to harness and get the real info from him. I
                        doubt that mules have changed much over the years, but I bet most of
                        that knowledge has been lost.

                        And, does anyone know why the formatting in my posts are so screwed up?

                        Dave

                        eighth_conn_inf wrote:
                        >
                        > Dave,
                        >
                        > I looked at the book on Amazon and the table of contents shows one
                        > chapter on the CW. Do you have the book and if so, is the material on
                        > the CW worth buying it?
                        >
                        > Thank you,
                        > Larry
                        >
                        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        > <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>, Dave <gewehr@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Thanks for that article, Larry, and the shavetail story Tom. After
                        > > doing a little looking around, it seems that the only book
                        > addressing
                        > > the old army mule is *
                        > > <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-
                        > <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/->
                        > /0803267401/ref=ord_cart_shr?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>*"Shavetails
                        > > and Bell Sharps: The History of the U.S. Army Mule" by Essin (The
                        > bell
                        > > sharp was a white or dun mare they used to lead the mules, wearing
                        > a
                        > > bell).
                        > >
                        > > A lot of the literature addresses pack mules, which is not so
                        > applicable
                        > > to the ACW. My feeling is that the use of mules for pulling wagons
                        > was
                        > > an expedient for the war, and didn't go far beyond that. There is
                        > > fodder here for a book or at least a long article, mules were key
                        > to the
                        > > logistics of both armies. The problem was that not many people
                        > thought
                        > > about writing about them, because they were as common as Fords.
                        > >
                        > > I've owned a mule. They can kick in a 360 degree arc with their
                        > back
                        > > hooves. I never want another one, green, raw or well done.
                        > >
                        > > Dave McGowan
                        > >
                        > > eighth_conn_inf wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Dave,
                        > > >
                        > > > Looks like you are correct that "raw" or "green" means a mule (or
                        > > > even a soldier) which is untrained. Billings didn't use either of
                        > > > these is his delightful chapter on mules in his book "Hardtack and
                        > > > Coffee" but I found the following which mentions "raw mule" a
                        > couple
                        > > > of times and comments on training them, from
                        > > >
                        > > > "ARMY LIFE; FROM A SOLDIER'S JOURNAL
                        > > > INCIDENTS, SKETCHES AND RECORD OF A UNION
                        > > > SOLDIER'S ARMY LIFE, IN CAMP AND FIELD; 1861-64"
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > My guess is that, depending on the context, "raw or green mule"
                        > could
                        > > > also refer to uncooked mule, probably not a gourmet treat.
                        > > >
                        > > > If you find more, please let us know.
                        > > >
                        > > > Larry F.
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        > <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>, Dave <gewehr@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Came across the term "raw mule" in the OR. Is this an unbroken
                        > > > mule?
                        > > > > Same as a "green mule"?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Anyone know how long it took to make the mule "unraw"? GH Thomas
                        > > > writes
                        > > > > that it will take a "long time" on the march to do this.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > From the Battle of Mill Springs, not Antietam (but applicable, I
                        > > > > guess). Thanks for any help.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Dave McGowan
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
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