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Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Raw Mule

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  • Thomas Clemens
    I m probably telling you something you already know, but in the old army a new or raw mule had its tail shaved so that everyone would recognize its status.
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 22, 2009
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      I'm probably telling you something you already know, but in the "old army" a new or raw mule had its tail shaved so that everyone would recognize its status. Over time a new soldier, especially a 2nd Lt. became referred to as a "shavetail" to designate the same thing.

      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      Professor of History
      Hagerstown Community College


      >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 02/22/09 11:05 AM >>>
      Dave,

      Looks like you are correct that "raw" or "green" means a mule (or
      even a soldier) which is untrained. Billings didn't use either of
      these is his delightful chapter on mules in his book "Hardtack and
      Coffee" but I found the following which mentions "raw mule" a couple
      of times and comments on training them, from

      "ARMY LIFE; FROM A SOLDIER'S JOURNAL
      INCIDENTS, SKETCHES AND RECORD OF A UNION
      SOLDIER'S ARMY LIFE, IN CAMP AND FIELD; 1861-64"

      BY

      ALBERT O. MARSHALL.

      JOLIET, ILL.
      1883.

      "The train we came with from Pilot Knob this time
      is made up of raw mules that have never before been
      hitched to army wagons. It has been fun alive to see
      the teamsters attempt to drive the stubborn, unbroken
      animals. At first it was a continual runaway through
      the entire line. But being in the woods all the time,
      the only result would be that the ponderous army
      wagon would in a moment be caught upon a tree and
      then the mules would become tangled together and tumble in a heap.
      The thing to do now was to untangle the huge pile of mules. Let
      imagination picture the scene. Sometimes in a fierce run a small tree
      would be bent over by the force with which the mules
      would strike it and then regaining its strength would
      straighten up and thus frequently a team of the
      smaller mules would be found hanging up in a tree.

      An army team consists of six mules. The two larg-
      est ones being the wheel mules and the smallest two,
      the lead mules. The entire team is driven by a sin-
      gle line running up to the bridle of the right lead
      mule. A steady pull on the line means that the lead
      mule is to turn to the left, quick jerks tell him to
      turn to the right. It is wonderful how soon a raw
      mule can be taught to obey this awkward mode of
      indicating to him which way he is to go. With this
      single line the driver riding one of the wheel mules
      guides his team of six through many of the most diffi-
      cult and dangerous places.

      The army mule occupies a place that no other animal could so well
      fill. His life in the army shows that the mule has never been
      fully appreciated, [n reputation a mule is concen-
      trated stubbornness and obstinacy. In reality he is
      generally docile, faithful and tireless. Even when rniv-
      ning away a mule team never gets wildly crazy as
      horses often do. They never knock their own brains
      out against a tree or stone wall. Unless it is raw
      mules that have never learned to pull a wagon, like
      those we were driving on this trip, a runaway mule
      team will only go so far as it can have a safe place to
      run in. Of the hundreds of times that I have known
      of a team of six mules escaping from their drivers and
      starting on a run, I have not seen any that would run
      any farther than where they could find an open road.

      Six horses in the same condition would become so
      frightened that the wagon would be broken to pieces
      and some of the horses killed. The mule as an army
      mule is a success.

      .Our wagons were run empty to Patterson. The
      two days' drive had broken in the raw mules so that
      they knew how to draw. During the forenoon of
      Friday, the ninth, we loaded up and started for Van
      Buren. Went five miles. At night camped by a va-
      cant schoolhouse which some of us used for our
      night's sleeping room. Saturday we went through to Black River, our
      raw mules drawing 'very well.

      This is the two-line URL:

      http://libsysdigi.library.uiuc.edu/oca/Books2007-
      06/armylifefromsold00mars/armylifefromsold00mars_djvu.txt

      Reprint available from Kessinger Publishing, ISBN-10: 1436614481

      My guess is that, depending on the context, "raw or green mule" could
      also refer to uncooked mule, probably not a gourmet treat.

      If you find more, please let us know.

      Larry F.






      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Dave <gewehr@...> wrote:
      >
      > Came across the term "raw mule" in the OR. Is this an unbroken
      mule?
      > Same as a "green mule"?
      >
      > Anyone know how long it took to make the mule "unraw"? GH Thomas
      writes
      > that it will take a "long time" on the march to do this.
      >
      > From the Battle of Mill Springs, not Antietam (but applicable, I
      > guess). Thanks for any help.
      >
      > Dave McGowan
      >
    • Thomas Clemens
      1000 feet does not get us to the cemetery tower, but on the ridge near there? Maybe a temporary tower for the photo? Would like to see the photo. Thomas G.
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 22, 2009
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        1000 feet does not get us to the cemetery tower, but on the ridge near there? Maybe a temporary tower for the photo? Would like to see the photo.

        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        Professor of History
        Hagerstown Community College


        >>> Stephen Recker <recker@...> 02/22/09 2:04 PM >>>
        I just bought an Antietam photo that was hard to identify because it
        looks like it was taken from about 100 feet off the ground, 1000 feet
        south of where the tower is today. It looks like somewhere around
        1880-90. I am not aware of any tower that was ever in that area. Any
        thoughts? Thanks.

        Stephen
      • Stephen Recker
        Tom, Is there a good time for me to stop by tomorrow? Stephen ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 22, 2009
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          Tom,

          Is there a good time for me to stop by tomorrow?

          Stephen

          On Sunday, February 22, 2009, at 03:35 PM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

          > 1000 feet does not get us to the cemetery tower, but on the ridge near
          > there? Maybe a temporary tower for the photo? Would like to see the
          > photo.
          >
          > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          > Professor of History
          > Hagerstown Community College
          >
          > >>> Stephen Recker <recker@...> 02/22/09 2:04 PM >>>
          > I just bought an Antietam photo that was hard to identify because it
          > looks like it was taken from about 100 feet off the ground, 1000 feet
          > south of where the tower is today. It looks like somewhere around
          > 1880-90. I am not aware of any tower that was ever in that area. Any
          > thoughts? Thanks.
          >
          > Stephen
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Ian Workman
          Could it have been taken by a hot air baloon. There were some in the area after the war. There were photos taken around Antietam Iron Works from a hot air
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 22, 2009
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            Could it have been taken by a hot air baloon. There were some in the area
            after the war. There were photos taken around Antietam Iron Works from a hot
            air baloon.

            On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 7:07 PM, Stephen Recker <
            recker@...> wrote:

            > Tom,
            >
            > Is there a good time for me to stop by tomorrow?
            >
            > Stephen
            >
            > On Sunday, February 22, 2009, at 03:35 PM, Thomas Clemens wrote:
            >
            > > 1000 feet does not get us to the cemetery tower, but on the ridge near
            > > there? Maybe a temporary tower for the photo? Would like to see the
            > > photo.
            > >
            > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            > > Professor of History
            > > Hagerstown Community College
            > >
            > > >>> Stephen Recker <recker@...<recker%40virtualgettysburg.com>>
            > 02/22/09 2:04 PM >>>
            > > I just bought an Antietam photo that was hard to identify because it
            > > looks like it was taken from about 100 feet off the ground, 1000 feet
            > > south of where the tower is today. It looks like somewhere around
            > > 1880-90. I am not aware of any tower that was ever in that area. Any
            > > thoughts? Thanks.
            > >
            > > Stephen
            > >
            > >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Thomas Clemens
            Stop[ by where? Don t forget where I am this semester. Thomas G. Clemens D.A. Professor of History Hagerstown Community College ... Tom, Is there a good time
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 22, 2009
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              Stop[ by where? Don't forget where I am this semester.


              Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              Professor of History
              Hagerstown Community College


              >>> Stephen Recker <recker@...> 02/22/09 7:07 PM >>>
              Tom,

              Is there a good time for me to stop by tomorrow?

              Stephen

              On Sunday, February 22, 2009, at 03:35 PM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

              > 1000 feet does not get us to the cemetery tower, but on the ridge near
              > there? Maybe a temporary tower for the photo? Would like to see the
              > photo.
              >
              > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              > Professor of History
              > Hagerstown Community College
              >
              > >>> Stephen Recker <recker@...> 02/22/09 2:04 PM >>>
              > I just bought an Antietam photo that was hard to identify because it
              > looks like it was taken from about 100 feet off the ground, 1000 feet
              > south of where the tower is today. It looks like somewhere around
              > 1880-90. I am not aware of any tower that was ever in that area. Any
              > thoughts? Thanks.
              >
              > Stephen
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Stephen Recker
              Da ohh. Never mind. ;-) Stephen ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 22, 2009
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                Da'ohh. Never mind.

                ;-)

                Stephen

                On Sunday, February 22, 2009, at 08:03 PM, Thomas Clemens wrote:

                > Stop[ by where? Don't forget where I am this semester.
                >
                > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                > Professor of History
                > Hagerstown Community College
                >
                > >>> Stephen Recker <recker@...> 02/22/09 7:07 PM >>>
                > Tom,
                >
                > Is there a good time for me to stop by tomorrow?
                >
                > Stephen
                >
                > On Sunday, February 22, 2009, at 03:35 PM, Thomas Clemens wrote:
                >
                > > 1000 feet does not get us to the cemetery tower, but on the ridge
                > near
                > > there? Maybe a temporary tower for the photo? Would like to see the
                > > photo.
                > >
                > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                > > Professor of History
                > > Hagerstown Community College
                > >
                > > >>> Stephen Recker <recker@...> 02/22/09 2:04 PM
                > >>>
                > > I just bought an Antietam photo that was hard to identify because it
                > > looks like it was taken from about 100 feet off the ground, 1000 feet
                > > south of where the tower is today. It looks like somewhere around
                > > 1880-90. I am not aware of any tower that was ever in that area. Any
                > > thoughts? Thanks.
                > >
                > > Stephen
                > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Stephen Recker
                That s what I thought. When were they taken? Thanks. Stephen ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 22, 2009
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                  That's what I thought. When were they taken? Thanks.

                  Stephen

                  On Sunday, February 22, 2009, at 07:46 PM, Ian Workman wrote:

                  > Could it have been taken by a hot air baloon. There were some in the
                  > area
                  > after the war. There were photos taken around Antietam Iron Works from
                  > a hot
                  > air baloon.


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Dave
                  Thanks for that article, Larry, and the shavetail story Tom. After doing a little looking around, it seems that the only book addressing the old army mule is
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 22, 2009
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                    Thanks for that article, Larry, and the shavetail story Tom. After
                    doing a little looking around, it seems that the only book addressing
                    the old army mule is *
                    <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0803267401/ref=ord_cart_shr?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>*"Shavetails
                    and Bell Sharps: The History of the U.S. Army Mule" by Essin (The bell
                    sharp was a white or dun mare they used to lead the mules, wearing a
                    bell).

                    A lot of the literature addresses pack mules, which is not so applicable
                    to the ACW. My feeling is that the use of mules for pulling wagons was
                    an expedient for the war, and didn't go far beyond that. There is
                    fodder here for a book or at least a long article, mules were key to the
                    logistics of both armies. The problem was that not many people thought
                    about writing about them, because they were as common as Fords.

                    I've owned a mule. They can kick in a 360 degree arc with their back
                    hooves. I never want another one, green, raw or well done.

                    Dave McGowan

                    eighth_conn_inf wrote:
                    >
                    > Dave,
                    >
                    > Looks like you are correct that "raw" or "green" means a mule (or
                    > even a soldier) which is untrained. Billings didn't use either of
                    > these is his delightful chapter on mules in his book "Hardtack and
                    > Coffee" but I found the following which mentions "raw mule" a couple
                    > of times and comments on training them, from
                    >
                    > "ARMY LIFE; FROM A SOLDIER'S JOURNAL
                    > INCIDENTS, SKETCHES AND RECORD OF A UNION
                    > SOLDIER'S ARMY LIFE, IN CAMP AND FIELD; 1861-64"
                    >
                    >
                    > My guess is that, depending on the context, "raw or green mule" could
                    > also refer to uncooked mule, probably not a gourmet treat.
                    >
                    > If you find more, please let us know.
                    >
                    > Larry F.
                    >
                    > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>, Dave <gewehr@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Came across the term "raw mule" in the OR. Is this an unbroken
                    > mule?
                    > > Same as a "green mule"?
                    > >
                    > > Anyone know how long it took to make the mule "unraw"? GH Thomas
                    > writes
                    > > that it will take a "long time" on the march to do this.
                    > >
                    > > From the Battle of Mill Springs, not Antietam (but applicable, I
                    > > guess). Thanks for any help.
                    > >
                    > > Dave McGowan
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                  • G E Mayers
                    Where is Tom C this semester anyway? Too bad there is no weblink Steve to the photo. Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth,
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 22, 2009
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                      Where is Tom C this semester anyway?

                      Too bad there is no weblink Steve to the photo.

                      Yr. Obt. Svt.
                      G E "Gerry" Mayers

                      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
                      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 8:54 PM
                      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Tower soutn of tower?


                      > That's what I thought. When were they taken? Thanks.
                      >
                      > Stephen
                      >
                      > On Sunday, February 22, 2009, at 07:46 PM, Ian Workman wrote:
                      >
                      >> Could it have been taken by a hot air baloon. There were some
                      >> in the
                      >> area
                      >> after the war. There were photos taken around Antietam Iron
                      >> Works from
                      >> a hot
                      >> air baloon.
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                    • Ian Workman
                      As far as I know the photos that were taken from the hot air balloon were in the 1880 s. Does this sound right. I have also seen familiar ones from South
                      Message 10 of 15 , Feb 22, 2009
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                        As far as I know the photos that were taken from the hot air balloon were
                        in the 1880's. Does this sound right. I have also seen familiar ones from
                        South Mountain overlooking the valley. Does anyone know who was doing this?

                        Ian

                        On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 9:31 PM, G E Mayers <gerry1952@...> wrote:

                        > Where is Tom C this semester anyway?
                        >
                        > Too bad there is no weblink Steve to the photo.
                        >
                        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                        >
                        > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                        > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                        > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                        > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...<recker%40virtualgettysburg.com>
                        > >
                        > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com <TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>>
                        > Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 8:54 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Tower soutn of tower?
                        >
                        > > That's what I thought. When were they taken? Thanks.
                        > >
                        > > Stephen
                        > >
                        > > On Sunday, February 22, 2009, at 07:46 PM, Ian Workman wrote:
                        > >
                        > >> Could it have been taken by a hot air baloon. There were some
                        > >> in the
                        > >> area
                        > >> after the war. There were photos taken around Antietam Iron
                        > >> Works from
                        > >> a hot
                        > >> air baloon.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • eighth_conn_inf
                        Dave, I looked at the book on Amazon and the table of contents shows one chapter on the CW. Do you have the book and if so, is the material on the CW worth
                        Message 11 of 15 , Feb 23, 2009
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                          Dave,

                          I looked at the book on Amazon and the table of contents shows one
                          chapter on the CW. Do you have the book and if so, is the material on
                          the CW worth buying it?

                          Thank you,
                          Larry


                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Dave <gewehr@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Thanks for that article, Larry, and the shavetail story Tom. After
                          > doing a little looking around, it seems that the only book
                          addressing
                          > the old army mule is *
                          > <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-
                          /0803267401/ref=ord_cart_shr?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>*"Shavetails
                          > and Bell Sharps: The History of the U.S. Army Mule" by Essin (The
                          bell
                          > sharp was a white or dun mare they used to lead the mules, wearing
                          a
                          > bell).
                          >
                          > A lot of the literature addresses pack mules, which is not so
                          applicable
                          > to the ACW. My feeling is that the use of mules for pulling wagons
                          was
                          > an expedient for the war, and didn't go far beyond that. There is
                          > fodder here for a book or at least a long article, mules were key
                          to the
                          > logistics of both armies. The problem was that not many people
                          thought
                          > about writing about them, because they were as common as Fords.
                          >
                          > I've owned a mule. They can kick in a 360 degree arc with their
                          back
                          > hooves. I never want another one, green, raw or well done.
                          >
                          > Dave McGowan
                          >
                          > eighth_conn_inf wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Dave,
                          > >
                          > > Looks like you are correct that "raw" or "green" means a mule (or
                          > > even a soldier) which is untrained. Billings didn't use either of
                          > > these is his delightful chapter on mules in his book "Hardtack and
                          > > Coffee" but I found the following which mentions "raw mule" a
                          couple
                          > > of times and comments on training them, from
                          > >
                          > > "ARMY LIFE; FROM A SOLDIER'S JOURNAL
                          > > INCIDENTS, SKETCHES AND RECORD OF A UNION
                          > > SOLDIER'S ARMY LIFE, IN CAMP AND FIELD; 1861-64"
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > My guess is that, depending on the context, "raw or green mule"
                          could
                          > > also refer to uncooked mule, probably not a gourmet treat.
                          > >
                          > > If you find more, please let us know.
                          > >
                          > > Larry F.
                          > >
                          > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          > > <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>, Dave <gewehr@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Came across the term "raw mule" in the OR. Is this an unbroken
                          > > mule?
                          > > > Same as a "green mule"?
                          > > >
                          > > > Anyone know how long it took to make the mule "unraw"? GH Thomas
                          > > writes
                          > > > that it will take a "long time" on the march to do this.
                          > > >
                          > > > From the Battle of Mill Springs, not Antietam (but applicable, I
                          > > > guess). Thanks for any help.
                          > > >
                          > > > Dave McGowan
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Dave
                          Larry, I don t have the book, and I don t think it s worth buying either. The problem is the pack mule coverage of recent vintage, which of course is easier
                          Message 12 of 15 , Feb 23, 2009
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                            Larry, I don't have the book, and I don't think it's worth buying
                            either. The problem is the pack mule coverage of recent vintage, which
                            of course is easier to research and is more time-relevant. My guess is
                            that after going through all the material on mules in the OR, diaries,
                            and other ACW sources, you would have to find a mule guy who actually
                            breaks and trains mules to harness and get the real info from him. I
                            doubt that mules have changed much over the years, but I bet most of
                            that knowledge has been lost.

                            And, does anyone know why the formatting in my posts are so screwed up?

                            Dave

                            eighth_conn_inf wrote:
                            >
                            > Dave,
                            >
                            > I looked at the book on Amazon and the table of contents shows one
                            > chapter on the CW. Do you have the book and if so, is the material on
                            > the CW worth buying it?
                            >
                            > Thank you,
                            > Larry
                            >
                            > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            > <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>, Dave <gewehr@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Thanks for that article, Larry, and the shavetail story Tom. After
                            > > doing a little looking around, it seems that the only book
                            > addressing
                            > > the old army mule is *
                            > > <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-
                            > <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/->
                            > /0803267401/ref=ord_cart_shr?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance>*"Shavetails
                            > > and Bell Sharps: The History of the U.S. Army Mule" by Essin (The
                            > bell
                            > > sharp was a white or dun mare they used to lead the mules, wearing
                            > a
                            > > bell).
                            > >
                            > > A lot of the literature addresses pack mules, which is not so
                            > applicable
                            > > to the ACW. My feeling is that the use of mules for pulling wagons
                            > was
                            > > an expedient for the war, and didn't go far beyond that. There is
                            > > fodder here for a book or at least a long article, mules were key
                            > to the
                            > > logistics of both armies. The problem was that not many people
                            > thought
                            > > about writing about them, because they were as common as Fords.
                            > >
                            > > I've owned a mule. They can kick in a 360 degree arc with their
                            > back
                            > > hooves. I never want another one, green, raw or well done.
                            > >
                            > > Dave McGowan
                            > >
                            > > eighth_conn_inf wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Dave,
                            > > >
                            > > > Looks like you are correct that "raw" or "green" means a mule (or
                            > > > even a soldier) which is untrained. Billings didn't use either of
                            > > > these is his delightful chapter on mules in his book "Hardtack and
                            > > > Coffee" but I found the following which mentions "raw mule" a
                            > couple
                            > > > of times and comments on training them, from
                            > > >
                            > > > "ARMY LIFE; FROM A SOLDIER'S JOURNAL
                            > > > INCIDENTS, SKETCHES AND RECORD OF A UNION
                            > > > SOLDIER'S ARMY LIFE, IN CAMP AND FIELD; 1861-64"
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > My guess is that, depending on the context, "raw or green mule"
                            > could
                            > > > also refer to uncooked mule, probably not a gourmet treat.
                            > > >
                            > > > If you find more, please let us know.
                            > > >
                            > > > Larry F.
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            > <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > > <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>, Dave <gewehr@> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Came across the term "raw mule" in the OR. Is this an unbroken
                            > > > mule?
                            > > > > Same as a "green mule"?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Anyone know how long it took to make the mule "unraw"? GH Thomas
                            > > > writes
                            > > > > that it will take a "long time" on the march to do this.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > From the Battle of Mill Springs, not Antietam (but applicable, I
                            > > > > guess). Thanks for any help.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Dave McGowan
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
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