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Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps

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  • Thomas Clemens
    Yes, more like Chesnut Grove and Harpers Ferry Rd intersection and then over to the Antietam iron Furnace and the village of Antietam at the mouth of the
    Message 1 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
      Yes, more like Chesnut Grove and Harpers Ferry Rd intersection and then over to the Antietam iron Furnace and the village of Antietam at the mouth of the creek. I am told by local hsitorians that the HF road from Sample's manor to Mills road did not exist and the cavalry followed Chesnut Grove to Mountain Lock Rd, or something like that.


      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      Professor of History
      Hagerstown Community College


      >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 02/17/09 2:43 PM >>>
      Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of
      Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
      than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
      analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the AOP?

      My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army is at
      least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the command? I
      don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that this is
      not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle John
      talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.

      I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut Grove
      Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
      correct?
      Larry F.

      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
      corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
      involved, he was already a Major General.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      > Professor of History
      > Hagerstown Community College
      >
    • Harry Smeltzer
      I read an interesting footnote in McDougall s Throes of Democracy - not a bad book on the period 1829-1877, though he has some major factual errors in the
      Message 2 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
        I read an interesting footnote in McDougall's "Throes of Democracy" - not a
        bad book on the period 1829-1877, though he has some major factual errors in
        the Civil War chapter.

        "The truth is Mary Boykin Miller Chesnut reinvented herself after Dixie's
        demise like a real-life Scarlett O'Hara. She was indeed the wife of a
        prominent Confederate politician, an eyewitness to many events, and an
        ardent secessionist. But the 800 page diary she claimed to have written
        during the war was in fact written (or expanded and rewritten) in the 1880s
        and carefully tailored to the prejudices of the (mostly Yankee) bookseller's
        market. It is easy to seem prophetic when you know all the outcomes in
        advance. Woodward might have deceived himself about Chesnut for didactic
        purposes, and the filmmaker Ken Burns for dramatic purposes, but Kenneth
        Lynn put l'affaire Chesnut to rest in The Air-Line to Seattle: Studies in
        Literary and Historical Writing about America (Chicago, Ill.: University of
        Chacago, 1983), p. 59: 'She wrote a novel about the South during the Civil
        War and called it a diary." Ergo, I shall not be quoting again from Mrs.
        Chesnut."

        It's not a bad book - it's sweeping, actually - but probably not
        self-loathing enough for many readers these days. I can't imagine someone
        like Zinn giving it two enthusiastic thumbs up.

        Harry





        -----Original Message-----
        From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
        Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 4:21 PM
        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps



        Maybe it didn't happen as described. Maybe the narrator is imbuing himself
        with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut.

        Harry

        -----Original Message-----
        From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
        Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:43 PM
        To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps

        Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of
        Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
        than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
        analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the AOP?

        My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army is at
        least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the command? I
        don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that this is
        not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle John
        talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.

        I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut Grove
        Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
        correct?
        Larry F.

        --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
        corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
        involved, he was already a Major General.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        > Professor of History
        > Hagerstown Community College
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Thomas Clemens
        There is a written order, that as National Lampoon used to say is a true fact. Maybe the idea of refusing the honor is a viable process. But compareeto
        Message 3 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
          There is a written order, that as National Lampoon used to say is a "true fact." Maybe the idea of "refusing the honor" is a viable process. But compareeto Burnside, offered the command once or twice, refused it, then "ordered" to it in November. A very different situation.

          Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          Professor of History
          Hagerstown Community College


          >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> 02/17/09 4:21 PM >>>
          Maybe it didn't happen as described. Maybe the narrator is imbuing himself
          with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut.

          Harry



          -----Original Message-----
          From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
          Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:43 PM
          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps



          Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of
          Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
          than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
          analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the AOP?

          My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army is at
          least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the command? I
          don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that this is
          not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle John
          talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.

          I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut Grove
          Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
          correct?
          Larry F.

          --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
          corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
          involved, he was already a Major General.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          > Professor of History
          > Hagerstown Community College
          >





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • 128thpa@comcast.net
          I teach a class at a local college on Civilians during the Civil War - while I use an equal amount of northern and southern letters and diaries, I do not use
          Message 4 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
            I teach a class at a local college on Civilians during the Civil War - while I use an equal amount of northern and southern letters and diaries, I do not use Mary Chesnut.  Inevitably, I will be asked, why I don't use her diary or why don't I mention her.  To stop any further questions on her, I use this reasoning - I am trying to show you the every day person, those who led ordinary, common lives which were changed forever by either the war coming to them, or they going to help support the war.  Mary Chesnut, being the wife of a prominent politician, does not for me (whether true or false) convey that feeling.  She was a person of privilege and her opinions would not convey what the thinking of the every day person would be.



            Paula



             




            I read an interesting footnote in McDougall's "Throes of Democracy" - not a
            bad book on the period 1829-1877, though he has some major factual errors in
            the Civil War chapter.

            "The truth is Mary Boykin Miller Chesnut reinvented herself after Dixie's
            demise like a real-life Scarlett O'Hara. She was indeed the wife of a
            prominent Confederate politician, an eyewitness to many events, and an
            ardent secessionist. But the 800 page diary she claimed to have written
            during the war was in fact written (or expanded and rewritten) in the 1880s
            and carefully tailored to the prejudices of the (mostly Yankee) bookseller's
            market. It is easy to seem prophetic when you know all the outcomes in
            advance. Woodward might have deceived himself about Chesnut for didactic
            purposes, and the filmmaker Ken Burns for dramatic purposes, but Kenneth
            Lynn put l'affaire Chesnut to rest in The Air-Line to Seattle: Studies in
            Literary and Historical Writing about America (Chicago, Ill.: University of
            Chacago, 1983), p. 59: 'She wrote a novel about the South during the Civil
            War and called it a diary." Ergo, I shall not be quoting again from Mrs.
            Chesnut."

            It's not a bad book - it's sweeping, actually - but probably not
            self-loathing enough for many readers these days. I can't imagine someone
            like Zinn giving it two enthusiastic thumbs up.

            Harry

            -----Original Message-----
            From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com ] On
            Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
            Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 4:21 PM
            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps

            Maybe it didn't happen as described. Maybe the narrator is imbuing himself
            with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut.

            Harry

            -----Original Message-----
            From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
            Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:43 PM
            To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps

            Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of
            Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
            than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
            analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the AOP?

            My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army is at
            least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the command? I
            don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that this is
            not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle John
            talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.

            I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut Grove
            Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
            correct?
            Larry F.

            --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
            corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
            involved, he was already a Major General.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            > Professor of History
            > Hagerstown Community College
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • G E Mayers
            Paula, Good point! Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one s mother s side, is an introduction
            Message 5 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
              Paula,

              Good point!

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <128thpa@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 5:52 PM
              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Sedgwick and the 12th Corps




              I teach a class at a local college on Civilians during the Civil
              War - while I use an equal amount of northern and southern
              letters and diaries, I do not use Mary Chesnut. Inevitably, I
              will be asked, why I don't use her diary or why don't I mention
              her. To stop any further questions on her, I use this reasoning -
              I am trying to show you the every day person, those who led
              ordinary, common lives which were changed forever by either the
              war coming to them, or they going to help support the war. Mary
              Chesnut, being the wife of a prominent politician, does not for
              me (whether true or false) convey that feeling. She was a person
              of privilege and her opinions would not convey what the thinking
              of the every day person would be.



              Paula








              I read an interesting footnote in McDougall's "Throes of
              Democracy" - not a
              bad book on the period 1829-1877, though he has some major
              factual errors in
              the Civil War chapter.

              "The truth is Mary Boykin Miller Chesnut reinvented herself after
              Dixie's
              demise like a real-life Scarlett O'Hara. She was indeed the wife
              of a
              prominent Confederate politician, an eyewitness to many events,
              and an
              ardent secessionist. But the 800 page diary she claimed to have
              written
              during the war was in fact written (or expanded and rewritten) in
              the 1880s
              and carefully tailored to the prejudices of the (mostly Yankee)
              bookseller's
              market. It is easy to seem prophetic when you know all the
              outcomes in
              advance. Woodward might have deceived himself about Chesnut for
              didactic
              purposes, and the filmmaker Ken Burns for dramatic purposes, but
              Kenneth
              Lynn put l'affaire Chesnut to rest in The Air-Line to Seattle:
              Studies in
              Literary and Historical Writing about America (Chicago, Ill.:
              University of
              Chacago, 1983), p. 59: 'She wrote a novel about the South during
              the Civil
              War and called it a diary." Ergo, I shall not be quoting again
              from Mrs.
              Chesnut."

              It's not a bad book - it's sweeping, actually - but probably not
              self-loathing enough for many readers these days. I can't imagine
              someone
              like Zinn giving it two enthusiastic thumbs up.

              Harry

              -----Original Message-----
              From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
              TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com ] On
              Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
              Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 4:21 PM
              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps

              Maybe it didn't happen as described. Maybe the narrator is
              imbuing himself
              with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut.

              Harry

              -----Original Message-----
              From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
              Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:43 PM
              To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps

              Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one
              of
              Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
              than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
              analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the
              AOP?

              My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army
              is at
              least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the
              command? I
              don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that
              this is
              not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle
              John
              talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.

              I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut
              Grove
              Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
              correct?
              Larry F.

              --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
              corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
              involved, he was already a Major General.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              > Professor of History
              > Hagerstown Community College
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • eighth_conn_inf
              Since we have the two orders, one on the 13th for Sedgwick and then one on the 15th appointing Mansfield, and nothing else, it makes it difficult to understand
              Message 6 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
                Since we have the two orders, one on the 13th for Sedgwick and then
                one on the 15th appointing Mansfield, and nothing else, it makes it
                difficult to understand what transpired between McClellan and
                Sedgwick. Since the only primary source is Gibbon's recollections,
                and what he says makes sense, perhaps we are stuck with it.

                I will buy his book to see if his "recollections" are as embellished
                as many such as H. K. Douglas's and J. L. Chamberlain's. Evaluation
                of primary sources can be interesting. I see that David Eicher calls
                Gibbon's recollections "superb" and an "important memoir"
                which "contributes lasting value about the war in the East. The
                accounts relating to Second Bull Run, Antietam, ...are particularly
                appealing." p. 167. Nevins calls it "Reliable, straightforward...."
                p. 93, vol. I.

                Larry F.

                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > There is a written order, that as National Lampoon used to say is
                a "true fact." Maybe the idea of "refusing the honor" is a viable
                process. But compareeto Burnside, offered the command once or twice,
                refused it, then "ordered" to it in November. A very different
                situation.
                >
                > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                > Professor of History
                > Hagerstown Community College
                >
                >
                > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> 02/17/09 4:21 PM >>>
                > Maybe it didn't happen as described. Maybe the narrator is imbuing
                himself
                > with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut.
                >
                > Harry
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:43 PM
                > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps
                >
                >
                >
                > Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of
                > Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
                > than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
                > analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the
                AOP?
                >
                > My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army is
                at
                > least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the
                command? I
                > don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that this
                is
                > not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle John
                > talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.
                >
                > I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut
                Grove
                > Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
                > correct?
                > Larry F.
                >
                > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
                > corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
                > involved, he was already a Major General.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                > > Professor of History
                > > Hagerstown Community College
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • G E Mayers
                Larry; Sounds to me that at least two authors found the memoir to be without much Victorian hyperbole! Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian,
                Message 7 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
                  Larry;

                  Sounds to me that at least two authors found the memoir to be
                  without much Victorian hyperbole!

                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 8:02 PM
                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps


                  Since we have the two orders, one on the 13th for Sedgwick and
                  then
                  one on the 15th appointing Mansfield, and nothing else, it makes
                  it
                  difficult to understand what transpired between McClellan and
                  Sedgwick. Since the only primary source is Gibbon's
                  recollections,
                  and what he says makes sense, perhaps we are stuck with it.

                  I will buy his book to see if his "recollections" are as
                  embellished
                  as many such as H. K. Douglas's and J. L. Chamberlain's.
                  Evaluation
                  of primary sources can be interesting. I see that David Eicher
                  calls
                  Gibbon's recollections "superb" and an "important memoir"
                  which "contributes lasting value about the war in the East. The
                  accounts relating to Second Bull Run, Antietam, ...are
                  particularly
                  appealing." p. 167. Nevins calls it "Reliable,
                  straightforward...."
                  p. 93, vol. I.

                  Larry F.

                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                  <clemenst@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > There is a written order, that as National Lampoon used to say
                  > is
                  a "true fact." Maybe the idea of "refusing the honor" is a
                  viable
                  process. But compareeto Burnside, offered the command once or
                  twice,
                  refused it, then "ordered" to it in November. A very different
                  situation.
                  >
                  > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  > Professor of History
                  > Hagerstown Community College
                  >
                  >
                  > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> 02/17/09 4:21 PM >>>
                  > Maybe it didn't happen as described. Maybe the narrator is
                  > imbuing
                  himself
                  > with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut.
                  >
                  > Harry
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                  > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                  > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:43 PM
                  > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or
                  > one of
                  > Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command
                  > rather
                  > than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
                  > analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of
                  > the
                  AOP?
                  >
                  > My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or
                  > army is
                  at
                  > least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the
                  command? I
                  > don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that
                  > this
                  is
                  > not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle
                  > John
                  > talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.
                  >
                  > I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of
                  > Chestnut
                  Grove
                  > Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is
                  > that
                  > correct?
                  > Larry F.
                  >
                  > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of
                  > > a
                  > corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
                  > involved, he was already a Major General.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  > > Professor of History
                  > > Hagerstown Community College
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • eighth_conn_inf
                  Harry, Eicher also mentions Woodward s research about when the diary was written and how it was embellished but still recommends it. He then notes that there
                  Message 8 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
                    Harry,

                    Eicher also mentions Woodward's research about when the diary was
                    written and how it was embellished but still recommends it. He then
                    notes that there is a "true" diary which gives the exact text of her
                    original diaries written during the war: "The Private Mary Chestnut:
                    The Unpublished Civil War Diaries" ed by C. Vann Woodward and
                    Elisabeth Muhlenfeld. Has anyone read this?

                    Larry F.


                    In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I read an interesting footnote in McDougall's "Throes of
                    Democracy" - not a
                    > bad book on the period 1829-1877, though he has some major factual
                    errors in
                    > the Civil War chapter.
                    >
                    > "The truth is Mary Boykin Miller Chesnut reinvented herself after
                    Dixie's
                    > demise like a real-life Scarlett O'Hara. She was indeed the wife
                    of a
                    > prominent Confederate politician, an eyewitness to many events, and
                    an
                    > ardent secessionist. But the 800 page diary she claimed to have
                    written
                    > during the war was in fact written (or expanded and rewritten) in
                    the 1880s
                    > and carefully tailored to the prejudices of the (mostly Yankee)
                    bookseller's
                    > market. It is easy to seem prophetic when you know all the
                    outcomes in
                    > advance. Woodward might have deceived himself about Chesnut for
                    didactic
                    > purposes, and the filmmaker Ken Burns for dramatic purposes, but
                    Kenneth
                    > Lynn put l'affaire Chesnut to rest in The Air-Line to Seattle:
                    Studies in
                    > Literary and Historical Writing about America (Chicago, Ill.:
                    University of
                    > Chacago, 1983), p. 59: 'She wrote a novel about the South during
                    the Civil
                    > War and called it a diary." Ergo, I shall not be quoting again
                    from Mrs.
                    > Chesnut."
                    >
                    > It's not a bad book - it's sweeping, actually - but probably not
                    > self-loathing enough for many readers these days. I can't imagine
                    someone
                    > like Zinn giving it two enthusiastic thumbs up.
                    >
                    > Harry
                    >
                  • 128thpa@comcast.net
                    Thanks Gerry! Paula ... From: G E Mayers To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:36:54 PM GMT -05:00
                    Message 9 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
                      Thanks Gerry!

                      Paula
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:36:54 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Sedgwick and the 12th Corps






                      Paula,

                      Good point!

                      Yr. Obt. Svt.
                      G E "Gerry" Mayers

                      >



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                    • eighth_conn_inf
                      Thanks Tom, This helps flesh out my Escape from Harpers Ferry chapter re the Jeff Davis Legion. Knowing period roads helps understand whether or not what the
                      Message 10 of 30 , Feb 18, 2009
                        Thanks Tom,

                        This helps flesh out my "Escape from Harpers Ferry" chapter re the
                        Jeff Davis Legion. Knowing period roads helps understand whether or
                        not what the sources say is plausible.

                        Larry

                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Yes, more like Chesnut Grove and Harpers Ferry Rd intersection and
                        then over to the Antietam iron Furnace and the village of Antietam at
                        the mouth of the creek. I am told by local historians that the HF
                        road from Sample's manor to Mills road did not exist and the cavalry
                        followed Chesnut Grove to Mountain Lock Rd, or something like that.
                        >
                        >
                        > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                        > Professor of History
                        > Hagerstown Community College
                        >
                        >
                        > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 02/17/09 2:43 PM >>>
                        > Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of
                        > Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
                        > than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
                        > analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the
                        AOP?
                        >
                        > My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army is
                        at
                        > least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the
                        command? I
                        > don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that this
                        is
                        > not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle John
                        > talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.
                        >
                        > I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut
                        Grove
                        > Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
                        > correct?
                        > Larry F.
                        >
                        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
                        > corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
                        > involved, he was already a Major General.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                        > > Professor of History
                        > > Hagerstown Community College
                        > >
                        >
                      • Teej Smith
                        Larry wrote: Since we have the two orders, one on the 13th for Sedgwick and then one on the 15th appointing Mansfield, and nothing else, it makes it difficult
                        Message 11 of 30 , Feb 18, 2009
                          Larry wrote:

                          Since we have the two orders, one on the 13th for Sedgwick and then
                          one on the 15th appointing Mansfield, and nothing else, it makes it
                          difficult to understand what transpired between McClellan and
                          Sedgwick. Since the only primary source is Gibbon's recollections,
                          and what he says makes sense, perhaps we are stuck with it.

                          Sorry for joining the discussion so late. If someone has already mentioned this, my apologies. There is a very short biography of Sedgwick written in 1982 by Richard Elliott Winslow III. Winslow wrote that Sedgwick was at "Farm Willow Grove" when he received the orders directing him to take command of 12th Corps. He quotes from the orders citing the ORs and then wrote, "It was a most tempting assignment if one desired rapid promotion. But Sedgwick declined the command, as he 'felt he could do better service with the troops which he knew and which knew him;' The cite for this brief quote is a manuscript written by one of Sedgwick's aides, Capt. Charles Albert Whittier. Whittier's manuscript is titled, "Reminiscences of the War, 1861-1865 or Egotistic Memoirs, C.A.W. Feb. 13, 1888. At the writing of the biography a typescript of the manuscript could be found at Boston Public Library, Boston, Mass.

                          Regards,
                          Teej




                          .



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • eighth_conn_inf
                          Thanks Teej, I have Winslow and use it extensively for Sedgwick info. I was hoping to find something written by McClellan or Sedgwick about this but Gibbon s
                          Message 12 of 30 , Feb 18, 2009
                            Thanks Teej,

                            I have Winslow and use it extensively for Sedgwick info. I was hoping
                            to find something written by McClellan or Sedgwick about this but
                            Gibbon's and Whittier's quotes which basically agree with each other
                            are better than nothing. I've found nothing in the OR's about this
                            other than the two assignments for Sedgwick and Mansfield--still
                            looking.

                            Larry

                            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Teej Smith" <teej@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Larry wrote:
                            >
                            > Since we have the two orders, one on the 13th for Sedgwick and
                            then
                            > one on the 15th appointing Mansfield, and nothing else, it makes
                            it
                            > difficult to understand what transpired between McClellan and
                            > Sedgwick. Since the only primary source is Gibbon's
                            recollections,
                            > and what he says makes sense, perhaps we are stuck with it.
                            >
                            > Sorry for joining the discussion so late. If someone has
                            already mentioned this, my apologies. There is a very short
                            biography of Sedgwick written in 1982 by Richard Elliott Winslow
                            III. Winslow wrote that Sedgwick was at "Farm Willow Grove" when he
                            received the orders directing him to take command of 12th Corps. He
                            quotes from the orders citing the ORs and then wrote, "It was a most
                            tempting assignment if one desired rapid promotion. But Sedgwick
                            declined the command, as he 'felt he could do better service with the
                            troops which he knew and which knew him;' The cite for this brief
                            quote is a manuscript written by one of Sedgwick's aides, Capt.
                            Charles Albert Whittier. Whittier's manuscript is
                            titled, "Reminiscences of the War, 1861-1865 or Egotistic Memoirs,
                            C.A.W. Feb. 13, 1888. At the writing of the biography a typescript of
                            the manuscript could be found at Boston Public Library, Boston, Mass.
                            >
                            > Regards,
                            > Teej
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > .
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
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