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RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps

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  • Harry Smeltzer
    Maybe it didn t happen as described. Maybe the narrator is imbuing himself with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut. Harry ... From:
    Message 1 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
      Maybe it didn't happen as described. Maybe the narrator is imbuing himself
      with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut.

      Harry



      -----Original Message-----
      From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
      Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:43 PM
      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps



      Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of
      Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
      than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
      analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the AOP?

      My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army is at
      least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the command? I
      don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that this is
      not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle John
      talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.

      I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut Grove
      Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
      correct?
      Larry F.

      --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
      yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
      corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
      involved, he was already a Major General.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      > Professor of History
      > Hagerstown Community College
      >





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Thomas Clemens
      Yes, more like Chesnut Grove and Harpers Ferry Rd intersection and then over to the Antietam iron Furnace and the village of Antietam at the mouth of the
      Message 2 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
        Yes, more like Chesnut Grove and Harpers Ferry Rd intersection and then over to the Antietam iron Furnace and the village of Antietam at the mouth of the creek. I am told by local hsitorians that the HF road from Sample's manor to Mills road did not exist and the cavalry followed Chesnut Grove to Mountain Lock Rd, or something like that.


        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        Professor of History
        Hagerstown Community College


        >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 02/17/09 2:43 PM >>>
        Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of
        Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
        than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
        analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the AOP?

        My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army is at
        least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the command? I
        don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that this is
        not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle John
        talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.

        I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut Grove
        Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
        correct?
        Larry F.

        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
        corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
        involved, he was already a Major General.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        > Professor of History
        > Hagerstown Community College
        >
      • Harry Smeltzer
        I read an interesting footnote in McDougall s Throes of Democracy - not a bad book on the period 1829-1877, though he has some major factual errors in the
        Message 3 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
          I read an interesting footnote in McDougall's "Throes of Democracy" - not a
          bad book on the period 1829-1877, though he has some major factual errors in
          the Civil War chapter.

          "The truth is Mary Boykin Miller Chesnut reinvented herself after Dixie's
          demise like a real-life Scarlett O'Hara. She was indeed the wife of a
          prominent Confederate politician, an eyewitness to many events, and an
          ardent secessionist. But the 800 page diary she claimed to have written
          during the war was in fact written (or expanded and rewritten) in the 1880s
          and carefully tailored to the prejudices of the (mostly Yankee) bookseller's
          market. It is easy to seem prophetic when you know all the outcomes in
          advance. Woodward might have deceived himself about Chesnut for didactic
          purposes, and the filmmaker Ken Burns for dramatic purposes, but Kenneth
          Lynn put l'affaire Chesnut to rest in The Air-Line to Seattle: Studies in
          Literary and Historical Writing about America (Chicago, Ill.: University of
          Chacago, 1983), p. 59: 'She wrote a novel about the South during the Civil
          War and called it a diary." Ergo, I shall not be quoting again from Mrs.
          Chesnut."

          It's not a bad book - it's sweeping, actually - but probably not
          self-loathing enough for many readers these days. I can't imagine someone
          like Zinn giving it two enthusiastic thumbs up.

          Harry





          -----Original Message-----
          From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
          Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 4:21 PM
          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps



          Maybe it didn't happen as described. Maybe the narrator is imbuing himself
          with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut.

          Harry

          -----Original Message-----
          From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
          Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:43 PM
          To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps

          Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of
          Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
          than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
          analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the AOP?

          My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army is at
          least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the command? I
          don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that this is
          not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle John
          talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.

          I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut Grove
          Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
          correct?
          Larry F.

          --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
          yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
          corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
          involved, he was already a Major General.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          > Professor of History
          > Hagerstown Community College
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Thomas Clemens
          There is a written order, that as National Lampoon used to say is a true fact. Maybe the idea of refusing the honor is a viable process. But compareeto
          Message 4 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
            There is a written order, that as National Lampoon used to say is a "true fact." Maybe the idea of "refusing the honor" is a viable process. But compareeto Burnside, offered the command once or twice, refused it, then "ordered" to it in November. A very different situation.

            Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            Professor of History
            Hagerstown Community College


            >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> 02/17/09 4:21 PM >>>
            Maybe it didn't happen as described. Maybe the narrator is imbuing himself
            with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut.

            Harry



            -----Original Message-----
            From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
            Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:43 PM
            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps



            Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of
            Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
            than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
            analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the AOP?

            My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army is at
            least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the command? I
            don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that this is
            not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle John
            talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.

            I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut Grove
            Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
            correct?
            Larry F.

            --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
            yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
            corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
            involved, he was already a Major General.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            > Professor of History
            > Hagerstown Community College
            >





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • 128thpa@comcast.net
            I teach a class at a local college on Civilians during the Civil War - while I use an equal amount of northern and southern letters and diaries, I do not use
            Message 5 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
              I teach a class at a local college on Civilians during the Civil War - while I use an equal amount of northern and southern letters and diaries, I do not use Mary Chesnut.  Inevitably, I will be asked, why I don't use her diary or why don't I mention her.  To stop any further questions on her, I use this reasoning - I am trying to show you the every day person, those who led ordinary, common lives which were changed forever by either the war coming to them, or they going to help support the war.  Mary Chesnut, being the wife of a prominent politician, does not for me (whether true or false) convey that feeling.  She was a person of privilege and her opinions would not convey what the thinking of the every day person would be.



              Paula



               




              I read an interesting footnote in McDougall's "Throes of Democracy" - not a
              bad book on the period 1829-1877, though he has some major factual errors in
              the Civil War chapter.

              "The truth is Mary Boykin Miller Chesnut reinvented herself after Dixie's
              demise like a real-life Scarlett O'Hara. She was indeed the wife of a
              prominent Confederate politician, an eyewitness to many events, and an
              ardent secessionist. But the 800 page diary she claimed to have written
              during the war was in fact written (or expanded and rewritten) in the 1880s
              and carefully tailored to the prejudices of the (mostly Yankee) bookseller's
              market. It is easy to seem prophetic when you know all the outcomes in
              advance. Woodward might have deceived himself about Chesnut for didactic
              purposes, and the filmmaker Ken Burns for dramatic purposes, but Kenneth
              Lynn put l'affaire Chesnut to rest in The Air-Line to Seattle: Studies in
              Literary and Historical Writing about America (Chicago, Ill.: University of
              Chacago, 1983), p. 59: 'She wrote a novel about the South during the Civil
              War and called it a diary." Ergo, I shall not be quoting again from Mrs.
              Chesnut."

              It's not a bad book - it's sweeping, actually - but probably not
              self-loathing enough for many readers these days. I can't imagine someone
              like Zinn giving it two enthusiastic thumbs up.

              Harry

              -----Original Message-----
              From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com ] On
              Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
              Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 4:21 PM
              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps

              Maybe it didn't happen as described. Maybe the narrator is imbuing himself
              with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut.

              Harry

              -----Original Message-----
              From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              yahoogroups.com] On
              Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
              Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:43 PM
              To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps

              Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of
              Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
              than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
              analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the AOP?

              My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army is at
              least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the command? I
              don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that this is
              not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle John
              talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.

              I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut Grove
              Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
              correct?
              Larry F.

              --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
              yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
              corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
              involved, he was already a Major General.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              > Professor of History
              > Hagerstown Community College
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • G E Mayers
              Paula, Good point! Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one s mother s side, is an introduction
              Message 6 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
                Paula,

                Good point!

                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: <128thpa@...>
                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 5:52 PM
                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Sedgwick and the 12th Corps




                I teach a class at a local college on Civilians during the Civil
                War - while I use an equal amount of northern and southern
                letters and diaries, I do not use Mary Chesnut. Inevitably, I
                will be asked, why I don't use her diary or why don't I mention
                her. To stop any further questions on her, I use this reasoning -
                I am trying to show you the every day person, those who led
                ordinary, common lives which were changed forever by either the
                war coming to them, or they going to help support the war. Mary
                Chesnut, being the wife of a prominent politician, does not for
                me (whether true or false) convey that feeling. She was a person
                of privilege and her opinions would not convey what the thinking
                of the every day person would be.



                Paula








                I read an interesting footnote in McDougall's "Throes of
                Democracy" - not a
                bad book on the period 1829-1877, though he has some major
                factual errors in
                the Civil War chapter.

                "The truth is Mary Boykin Miller Chesnut reinvented herself after
                Dixie's
                demise like a real-life Scarlett O'Hara. She was indeed the wife
                of a
                prominent Confederate politician, an eyewitness to many events,
                and an
                ardent secessionist. But the 800 page diary she claimed to have
                written
                during the war was in fact written (or expanded and rewritten) in
                the 1880s
                and carefully tailored to the prejudices of the (mostly Yankee)
                bookseller's
                market. It is easy to seem prophetic when you know all the
                outcomes in
                advance. Woodward might have deceived himself about Chesnut for
                didactic
                purposes, and the filmmaker Ken Burns for dramatic purposes, but
                Kenneth
                Lynn put l'affaire Chesnut to rest in The Air-Line to Seattle:
                Studies in
                Literary and Historical Writing about America (Chicago, Ill.:
                University of
                Chacago, 1983), p. 59: 'She wrote a novel about the South during
                the Civil
                War and called it a diary." Ergo, I shall not be quoting again
                from Mrs.
                Chesnut."

                It's not a bad book - it's sweeping, actually - but probably not
                self-loathing enough for many readers these days. I can't imagine
                someone
                like Zinn giving it two enthusiastic thumbs up.

                Harry

                -----Original Message-----
                From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
                TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com ] On
                Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
                Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 4:21 PM
                To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps

                Maybe it didn't happen as described. Maybe the narrator is
                imbuing himself
                with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut.

                Harry

                -----Original Message-----
                From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:43 PM
                To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps

                Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one
                of
                Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
                than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
                analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the
                AOP?

                My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army
                is at
                least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the
                command? I
                don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that
                this is
                not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle
                John
                talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.

                I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut
                Grove
                Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
                correct?
                Larry F.

                --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
                corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
                involved, he was already a Major General.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                > Professor of History
                > Hagerstown Community College
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • eighth_conn_inf
                Since we have the two orders, one on the 13th for Sedgwick and then one on the 15th appointing Mansfield, and nothing else, it makes it difficult to understand
                Message 7 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
                  Since we have the two orders, one on the 13th for Sedgwick and then
                  one on the 15th appointing Mansfield, and nothing else, it makes it
                  difficult to understand what transpired between McClellan and
                  Sedgwick. Since the only primary source is Gibbon's recollections,
                  and what he says makes sense, perhaps we are stuck with it.

                  I will buy his book to see if his "recollections" are as embellished
                  as many such as H. K. Douglas's and J. L. Chamberlain's. Evaluation
                  of primary sources can be interesting. I see that David Eicher calls
                  Gibbon's recollections "superb" and an "important memoir"
                  which "contributes lasting value about the war in the East. The
                  accounts relating to Second Bull Run, Antietam, ...are particularly
                  appealing." p. 167. Nevins calls it "Reliable, straightforward...."
                  p. 93, vol. I.

                  Larry F.

                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > There is a written order, that as National Lampoon used to say is
                  a "true fact." Maybe the idea of "refusing the honor" is a viable
                  process. But compareeto Burnside, offered the command once or twice,
                  refused it, then "ordered" to it in November. A very different
                  situation.
                  >
                  > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  > Professor of History
                  > Hagerstown Community College
                  >
                  >
                  > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> 02/17/09 4:21 PM >>>
                  > Maybe it didn't happen as described. Maybe the narrator is imbuing
                  himself
                  > with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut.
                  >
                  > Harry
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                  > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                  > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:43 PM
                  > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of
                  > Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
                  > than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
                  > analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the
                  AOP?
                  >
                  > My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army is
                  at
                  > least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the
                  command? I
                  > don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that this
                  is
                  > not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle John
                  > talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.
                  >
                  > I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut
                  Grove
                  > Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
                  > correct?
                  > Larry F.
                  >
                  > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
                  > corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
                  > involved, he was already a Major General.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  > > Professor of History
                  > > Hagerstown Community College
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • G E Mayers
                  Larry; Sounds to me that at least two authors found the memoir to be without much Victorian hyperbole! Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian,
                  Message 8 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
                    Larry;

                    Sounds to me that at least two authors found the memoir to be
                    without much Victorian hyperbole!

                    Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    G E "Gerry" Mayers

                    To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                    the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                    To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 8:02 PM
                    Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps


                    Since we have the two orders, one on the 13th for Sedgwick and
                    then
                    one on the 15th appointing Mansfield, and nothing else, it makes
                    it
                    difficult to understand what transpired between McClellan and
                    Sedgwick. Since the only primary source is Gibbon's
                    recollections,
                    and what he says makes sense, perhaps we are stuck with it.

                    I will buy his book to see if his "recollections" are as
                    embellished
                    as many such as H. K. Douglas's and J. L. Chamberlain's.
                    Evaluation
                    of primary sources can be interesting. I see that David Eicher
                    calls
                    Gibbon's recollections "superb" and an "important memoir"
                    which "contributes lasting value about the war in the East. The
                    accounts relating to Second Bull Run, Antietam, ...are
                    particularly
                    appealing." p. 167. Nevins calls it "Reliable,
                    straightforward...."
                    p. 93, vol. I.

                    Larry F.

                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                    <clemenst@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > There is a written order, that as National Lampoon used to say
                    > is
                    a "true fact." Maybe the idea of "refusing the honor" is a
                    viable
                    process. But compareeto Burnside, offered the command once or
                    twice,
                    refused it, then "ordered" to it in November. A very different
                    situation.
                    >
                    > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                    > Professor of History
                    > Hagerstown Community College
                    >
                    >
                    > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> 02/17/09 4:21 PM >>>
                    > Maybe it didn't happen as described. Maybe the narrator is
                    > imbuing
                    himself
                    > with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut.
                    >
                    > Harry
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                    > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                    > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:43 PM
                    > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or
                    > one of
                    > Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command
                    > rather
                    > than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
                    > analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of
                    > the
                    AOP?
                    >
                    > My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or
                    > army is
                    at
                    > least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the
                    command? I
                    > don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that
                    > this
                    is
                    > not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle
                    > John
                    > talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.
                    >
                    > I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of
                    > Chestnut
                    Grove
                    > Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is
                    > that
                    > correct?
                    > Larry F.
                    >
                    > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of
                    > > a
                    > corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
                    > involved, he was already a Major General.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                    > > Professor of History
                    > > Hagerstown Community College
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • eighth_conn_inf
                    Harry, Eicher also mentions Woodward s research about when the diary was written and how it was embellished but still recommends it. He then notes that there
                    Message 9 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
                      Harry,

                      Eicher also mentions Woodward's research about when the diary was
                      written and how it was embellished but still recommends it. He then
                      notes that there is a "true" diary which gives the exact text of her
                      original diaries written during the war: "The Private Mary Chestnut:
                      The Unpublished Civil War Diaries" ed by C. Vann Woodward and
                      Elisabeth Muhlenfeld. Has anyone read this?

                      Larry F.


                      In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I read an interesting footnote in McDougall's "Throes of
                      Democracy" - not a
                      > bad book on the period 1829-1877, though he has some major factual
                      errors in
                      > the Civil War chapter.
                      >
                      > "The truth is Mary Boykin Miller Chesnut reinvented herself after
                      Dixie's
                      > demise like a real-life Scarlett O'Hara. She was indeed the wife
                      of a
                      > prominent Confederate politician, an eyewitness to many events, and
                      an
                      > ardent secessionist. But the 800 page diary she claimed to have
                      written
                      > during the war was in fact written (or expanded and rewritten) in
                      the 1880s
                      > and carefully tailored to the prejudices of the (mostly Yankee)
                      bookseller's
                      > market. It is easy to seem prophetic when you know all the
                      outcomes in
                      > advance. Woodward might have deceived himself about Chesnut for
                      didactic
                      > purposes, and the filmmaker Ken Burns for dramatic purposes, but
                      Kenneth
                      > Lynn put l'affaire Chesnut to rest in The Air-Line to Seattle:
                      Studies in
                      > Literary and Historical Writing about America (Chicago, Ill.:
                      University of
                      > Chacago, 1983), p. 59: 'She wrote a novel about the South during
                      the Civil
                      > War and called it a diary." Ergo, I shall not be quoting again
                      from Mrs.
                      > Chesnut."
                      >
                      > It's not a bad book - it's sweeping, actually - but probably not
                      > self-loathing enough for many readers these days. I can't imagine
                      someone
                      > like Zinn giving it two enthusiastic thumbs up.
                      >
                      > Harry
                      >
                    • 128thpa@comcast.net
                      Thanks Gerry! Paula ... From: G E Mayers To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:36:54 PM GMT -05:00
                      Message 10 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
                        Thanks Gerry!

                        Paula
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:36:54 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Sedgwick and the 12th Corps






                        Paula,

                        Good point!

                        Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        G E "Gerry" Mayers

                        >



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                      • eighth_conn_inf
                        Thanks Tom, This helps flesh out my Escape from Harpers Ferry chapter re the Jeff Davis Legion. Knowing period roads helps understand whether or not what the
                        Message 11 of 30 , Feb 18, 2009
                          Thanks Tom,

                          This helps flesh out my "Escape from Harpers Ferry" chapter re the
                          Jeff Davis Legion. Knowing period roads helps understand whether or
                          not what the sources say is plausible.

                          Larry

                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Yes, more like Chesnut Grove and Harpers Ferry Rd intersection and
                          then over to the Antietam iron Furnace and the village of Antietam at
                          the mouth of the creek. I am told by local historians that the HF
                          road from Sample's manor to Mills road did not exist and the cavalry
                          followed Chesnut Grove to Mountain Lock Rd, or something like that.
                          >
                          >
                          > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                          > Professor of History
                          > Hagerstown Community College
                          >
                          >
                          > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 02/17/09 2:43 PM >>>
                          > Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of
                          > Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
                          > than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
                          > analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the
                          AOP?
                          >
                          > My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army is
                          at
                          > least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the
                          command? I
                          > don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that this
                          is
                          > not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle John
                          > talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.
                          >
                          > I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut
                          Grove
                          > Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
                          > correct?
                          > Larry F.
                          >
                          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
                          > corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
                          > involved, he was already a Major General.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                          > > Professor of History
                          > > Hagerstown Community College
                          > >
                          >
                        • Teej Smith
                          Larry wrote: Since we have the two orders, one on the 13th for Sedgwick and then one on the 15th appointing Mansfield, and nothing else, it makes it difficult
                          Message 12 of 30 , Feb 18, 2009
                            Larry wrote:

                            Since we have the two orders, one on the 13th for Sedgwick and then
                            one on the 15th appointing Mansfield, and nothing else, it makes it
                            difficult to understand what transpired between McClellan and
                            Sedgwick. Since the only primary source is Gibbon's recollections,
                            and what he says makes sense, perhaps we are stuck with it.

                            Sorry for joining the discussion so late. If someone has already mentioned this, my apologies. There is a very short biography of Sedgwick written in 1982 by Richard Elliott Winslow III. Winslow wrote that Sedgwick was at "Farm Willow Grove" when he received the orders directing him to take command of 12th Corps. He quotes from the orders citing the ORs and then wrote, "It was a most tempting assignment if one desired rapid promotion. But Sedgwick declined the command, as he 'felt he could do better service with the troops which he knew and which knew him;' The cite for this brief quote is a manuscript written by one of Sedgwick's aides, Capt. Charles Albert Whittier. Whittier's manuscript is titled, "Reminiscences of the War, 1861-1865 or Egotistic Memoirs, C.A.W. Feb. 13, 1888. At the writing of the biography a typescript of the manuscript could be found at Boston Public Library, Boston, Mass.

                            Regards,
                            Teej




                            .



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • eighth_conn_inf
                            Thanks Teej, I have Winslow and use it extensively for Sedgwick info. I was hoping to find something written by McClellan or Sedgwick about this but Gibbon s
                            Message 13 of 30 , Feb 18, 2009
                              Thanks Teej,

                              I have Winslow and use it extensively for Sedgwick info. I was hoping
                              to find something written by McClellan or Sedgwick about this but
                              Gibbon's and Whittier's quotes which basically agree with each other
                              are better than nothing. I've found nothing in the OR's about this
                              other than the two assignments for Sedgwick and Mansfield--still
                              looking.

                              Larry

                              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Teej Smith" <teej@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Larry wrote:
                              >
                              > Since we have the two orders, one on the 13th for Sedgwick and
                              then
                              > one on the 15th appointing Mansfield, and nothing else, it makes
                              it
                              > difficult to understand what transpired between McClellan and
                              > Sedgwick. Since the only primary source is Gibbon's
                              recollections,
                              > and what he says makes sense, perhaps we are stuck with it.
                              >
                              > Sorry for joining the discussion so late. If someone has
                              already mentioned this, my apologies. There is a very short
                              biography of Sedgwick written in 1982 by Richard Elliott Winslow
                              III. Winslow wrote that Sedgwick was at "Farm Willow Grove" when he
                              received the orders directing him to take command of 12th Corps. He
                              quotes from the orders citing the ORs and then wrote, "It was a most
                              tempting assignment if one desired rapid promotion. But Sedgwick
                              declined the command, as he 'felt he could do better service with the
                              troops which he knew and which knew him;' The cite for this brief
                              quote is a manuscript written by one of Sedgwick's aides, Capt.
                              Charles Albert Whittier. Whittier's manuscript is
                              titled, "Reminiscences of the War, 1861-1865 or Egotistic Memoirs,
                              C.A.W. Feb. 13, 1888. At the writing of the biography a typescript of
                              the manuscript could be found at Boston Public Library, Boston, Mass.
                              >
                              > Regards,
                              > Teej
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > .
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
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