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Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps

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  • eighth_conn_inf
    This is from General John Sedgwick: The Story of a Union Corps Commander, by Richard Elliot Winslow III: Visiting in McClellan s tent, Brig. Gen. John
    Message 1 of 30 , Feb 16, 2009
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      This is from "General John Sedgwick: The Story of a Union Corps
      Commander," by Richard Elliot Winslow III:

      "Visiting in McClellan's tent, Brig. Gen. John Gibbon was present as
      Little Mac struggled to find a suitable replacement for General
      Willaims of the 12th Corps. (The commanding general was still
      reorganizing his army while it was on the march.) Although he was a
      capable soldier, Williams lacked a West Point education and was
      unfortunately associated with the failures of General Banks.
      According to Gibbon, one of McClellan's aides read off Sedgwick's
      name among others. McClellan said, "'He will do. Publish an order
      assigning Sedgwick to command that corps.'" The aid protested, "I
      don't think General Sedgwick wants it, General, I think he would
      rather command his present division." McClellan answered, "'I can't
      help that. He must take it. Issue the order.'" Source is Gibbon, 73-
      74.

      "At Farm Willow Grove, Sedgwick received special orders assigning him
      temporarily "'to the command of the Second (Banks's)Corps, late the
      Army of the Virginia, and will immediately enter upon duty
      accordingly. Brig. Gen. O. O. Howard will relieve...Sedgwick in
      command of the division.' It was a most tempting assignment if one
      desired rapid promotion. But Sedgwick declined the command, as
      he 'felt he could do better service with the troops which he knew and
      whick knew him'; he placed this consideration above advancement."

      From a paper I wrote: Mansfield returned to Washington doing little
      of consequence awaiting another assignment. He did, however, meet
      with friends in Washington including an audience with Secretary of
      the Treasury, Salmon P. Chase, on 8 September perhaps helped by his
      Connecticut friend, Secretary of the Navy Gideon Welles. Finally,
      his efforts succeeded and he was given a field command with
      McClellan's forces which were heading to western Maryland in pursuit
      of Lee's Army of Northern Virginia. Once he was assigned, he wrote to
      his son, Samuel, a recent West Point graduate, to [f]ill your pockets
      with sandwiches and follow me, appointing the lieutenant his aide and
      chief engineer and headed west. Six days later Samuel's father was
      dead before he could join him. While one cannot say that he had any
      premonition of death upon being granted this, his first major
      command, he wrote to a former West Point professor saying "if I never
      see you again …I have not forgotten your inestimable favors to me."

      He left Washington on 13 September with another aide, Captain
      Clarence Dyer, and a black body servant, and arrived at McClellan's
      headquarters in Middletown, Maryland, on the 15th. There, he was
      quickly assigned to command of the 12th Corps after Sedgwick declined
      and on the 16th was informed by General McClellan that he was to move
      his corps to the Union right flank and support Hooker's 1st Corps in
      an early morning attack on the next day, if needed. The general who
      had been temporarily in command of the 12th Corps, Brig. Gen. Alpheus
      S. Williams, described Mansfield as "very fussy" having been "an
      engineer officer and never before had commanded large bodies of
      troops."

      Larry F.





      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "William H Keene" <wh_keene@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > On September 13th, 1862, the following order was issued from
      > Headquarters of the Army of the Potomac:
      >
      > "Maj. Gen. J. Sedgwick is assigned, temporarily, to the command of
      > the Second (Banks') Corps, late Army of Virginia, and will
      immediately
      > enter upon duty accordingly. Brig. Gen. 0. 0. Howard will relieve
      > Major-General Sedgwick in the command of his division."
      >
      > However, 48 hours later, the following order was issued from the
      same
      > source: "Brig. Gen. J. K. F. Mansfield is temporarily assigned to
      the
      > command of Banks' corps."
      >
      >
      > Did Sedgwick actually comply with this order during the 48 hours in
      > question?
      >
      > Is this covered in "Unfurls those Colors"?
      >
    • 128thpa@comcast.net
      Larry:  Does Winslow cite a source for this?  Up until now, I couldn t confirm that Dyer was with Mansfield at Antietam.  I am not saying he wasn t, I just
      Message 2 of 30 , Feb 16, 2009
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        Larry:  Does Winslow cite a source for this?  Up until now, I couldn't confirm that Dyer was with Mansfield at Antietam.  I am not saying he wasn't, I just couldn't find confirmation on this.  If he was with Mansfield, I can't find any evidence that he was used by Mansfield at Antietam.  I could see why Mansfield was described as "fussy" by Williams. 



        Williams in a letter to his daughters writes: 

        “I had five new regiments without drill or discipline. (One of these was the 128th PA) General Mansfield was greatly excited. . . .   Feeling that our heavy masses of raw troops were sadly exposed, I begged him to let me deploy them in line of battle, in which the men present by two ranks or rows instead of twenty, as we were marching, but I could not move him.   He was positive that all the new regiments would run away.”  This from Williams' book, From the Cannon’s Mouth,p. 125

         Paula



        <<This is from "General John Sedgwick: The Story of a Union Corps
        Commander," by Richard Elliot Winslow III: 





        He left Washington on 13 September with another aide, Captain
        Clarence Dyer, and a black body servant, and arrived at McClellan's
        headquarters in Middletown, Maryland, on the 15th. There, he was
        quickly assigned to command of the 12th Corps after Sedgwick declined
        and on the 16th was informed by General McClellan that he was to move
        his corps to the Union right flank and support Hooker's 1st Corps in
        an early morning attack on the next day, if needed. The general who
        had been temporarily in command of the 12th Corps, Brig. Gen. Alpheus
        S. Williams, described Mansfield as "very fussy" having been "an
        engineer officer and never before had commanded large bodies of
        troops.">>


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • eighth_conn_inf
        Paula, Thank you for that reminder of what Williams said. I suppose from what he said about Mansfield earlier in the book that likely Mansfield was up most of
        Message 3 of 30 , Feb 16, 2009
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          Paula,

          Thank you for that reminder of what Williams said. I suppose from
          what he said about Mansfield earlier in the book that likely
          Mansfield was up most of the night and perhaps wasn't performing
          100%. In my opinion, McClellan made a mistake; he should not have
          given the corps to Mansfield who had little knowledge about it or its
          capabilities.

          My earlier reply had two major quotes, one from Winslow and one from
          a paper I did which is on the MHO website; sorry I didn't make that
          clear. The paper is as follows: "Nutmeggers on Antietam Creek: Major
          Generals Joseph K. F. Mansfield, John Sedgwick, and Connecticut
          Regiments in the Maryland Campaign. 2 September through 20 September
          1862." Link:

          http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/civilwar/articles/nutmeggers1.asp
          x

          Its footnotes may help.

          Re my above on Mansfield sleeping: John Mead Gould said that
          Mansfield did bed down that night: pg. 6 of "The Mortal Wounding of
          General Mansfield at Antietam 17 September 1862."

          Dyer was generally not recognized by participants as on
          Mansfield's "staff" since he, and Capt. James W. Forsyth, who was
          assigned to Mansfield's staff by McClellan, were busy
          and not usually near the general. Gould, on pg. 21, quotes Dyer who
          wrote the following in 1891:

          "At the time the General was mortally wounded, I was not near him, as
          he had given me an order to bring the command of General Crawford to
          the front. It was halted somewhat to the rear and our left. When I
          returned, I found that the General was being removed to the rear, but
          by the men of what regiment I do not know. I remained with him until
          he died, which must have been about one o'clock P.M. on the
          17th...Where the General fell was a little to our left of the woods--
          a cornfield was directly in front. I am very sure that the General
          was not killed by the men of the [Confederate] command in front of
          the Tenth Maine. I am positive as to this."

          Another book, "Texas & New Mexico on the Eve of the Civil War: The
          Mansfield & Johnston Inspections, 1859 - 1861," edited by Jerry
          Thompson, which has a good, albeit short, bio about Mansfield in its
          concluding chapter, talks about Dyer leaving with Mansfield from DC
          on pg.198. He cites Mansfield Papers in the Middlesex (Conn)
          Historical Society. He also cites the statement of Capt. Clarence H.
          Dyer, Oct. 10, 1862, USMA.

          It seems to me that Dyer was in fact with Mansfield from the time he
          left DC to the time he died and then with Mansfield's son, to
          Connecticut with the body. Pls let me know if you need more info.

          Interestingly, Dyer as you see from his quote may be wrong on the
          time/date of death--Thompson has 8:10 am 18 September as does Eicher;
          Boatner has him dying on the 17th, but Thompson is born out by
          Jerimiah Taylor re the departure from DC and his death "a few minutes
          past eight o'clock." Dyer was at Mansfield's funeral and is mentioned
          in Taylor's encomium.

          Larry F.



          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, 128thpa@... wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Larry:  Does Winslow cite a source for this?  Up until now, I
          couldn't confirm that Dyer was with Mansfield at Antietam.  I am not
          saying he wasn't, I just couldn't find confirmation on this.  If he
          was with Mansfield, I can't find any evidence that he was used by
          Mansfield at Antietam.  I could see why Mansfield was described
          as "fussy" by Williams. 
          >
          >
          >
          > Williams in a letter to his daughters writes: 
          >
          > “I had five new regiments without drill or discipline. (One of
          these was the 128th PA) General Mansfield was greatly excited. . . .
            Feeling that our heavy masses of raw troops were sadly exposed, I
          begged him to let me deploy them in line of battle, in which the men
          present by two ranks or rows instead of twenty, as we were marching,
          but I could not move him.   He was positive that all the new
          regiments would run away.”  This from Williams' book, From the
          Cannon’s Mouth,p. 125
          >
          >  Paula
          >
          >
          >
          > <<This is from "General John Sedgwick: The Story of a Union Corps
          > Commander," by Richard Elliot Winslow III: 
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > He left Washington on 13 September with another aide, Captain
          > Clarence Dyer, and a black body servant, and arrived at McClellan's
          > headquarters in Middletown, Maryland, on the 15th. There, he was
          > quickly assigned to command of the 12th Corps after Sedgwick
          declined
          > and on the 16th was informed by General McClellan that he was to
          move
          > his corps to the Union right flank and support Hooker's 1st Corps
          in
          > an early morning attack on the next day, if needed. The general who
          > had been temporarily in command of the 12th Corps, Brig. Gen.
          Alpheus
          > S. Williams, described Mansfield as "very fussy" having been "an
          > engineer officer and never before had commanded large bodies of
          > troops.">>
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • eighth_conn_inf
          Paula, For the link to my article in MHO, pls add an x to the link as it did not carry over since it was on a second line. Larry F. ... its ... from ...
          Message 4 of 30 , Feb 16, 2009
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            Paula,

            For the link to my article in MHO, pls add an "x" to the link as it
            did not carry over since it was on a second line.

            Larry F.

            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
            <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
            >
            > Paula,
            >
            > Thank you for that reminder of what Williams said. I suppose from
            > what he said about Mansfield earlier in the book that likely
            > Mansfield was up most of the night and perhaps wasn't performing
            > 100%. In my opinion, McClellan made a mistake; he should not have
            > given the corps to Mansfield who had little knowledge about it or
            its
            > capabilities.
            >
            > My earlier reply had two major quotes, one from Winslow and one
            from
            > a paper I did which is on the MHO website; sorry I didn't make that
            > clear. The paper is as follows: "Nutmeggers on Antietam Creek:
            Major
            > Generals Joseph K. F. Mansfield, John Sedgwick, and Connecticut
            > Regiments in the Maryland Campaign. 2 September through 20
            September
            > 1862." Link:
            >
            >
            http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/civilwar/articles/nutmeggers1.asp
            > x
            >
            > Its footnotes may help.
            >
            > Re my above on Mansfield sleeping: John Mead Gould said that
            > Mansfield did bed down that night: pg. 6 of "The Mortal Wounding of
            > General Mansfield at Antietam 17 September 1862."
            >
            > Dyer was generally not recognized by participants as on
            > Mansfield's "staff" since he, and Capt. James W. Forsyth, who was
            > assigned to Mansfield's staff by McClellan, were busy
            > and not usually near the general. Gould, on pg. 21, quotes Dyer who
            > wrote the following in 1891:
            >
            > "At the time the General was mortally wounded, I was not near him,
            as
            > he had given me an order to bring the command of General Crawford
            to
            > the front. It was halted somewhat to the rear and our left. When I
            > returned, I found that the General was being removed to the rear,
            but
            > by the men of what regiment I do not know. I remained with him
            until
            > he died, which must have been about one o'clock P.M. on the
            > 17th...Where the General fell was a little to our left of the woods-
            -
            > a cornfield was directly in front. I am very sure that the General
            > was not killed by the men of the [Confederate] command in front of
            > the Tenth Maine. I am positive as to this."
            >
            > Another book, "Texas & New Mexico on the Eve of the Civil War: The
            > Mansfield & Johnston Inspections, 1859 - 1861," edited by Jerry
            > Thompson, which has a good, albeit short, bio about Mansfield in
            its
            > concluding chapter, talks about Dyer leaving with Mansfield from DC
            > on pg.198. He cites Mansfield Papers in the Middlesex (Conn)
            > Historical Society. He also cites the statement of Capt. Clarence
            H.
            > Dyer, Oct. 10, 1862, USMA.
            >
            > It seems to me that Dyer was in fact with Mansfield from the time
            he
            > left DC to the time he died and then with Mansfield's son, to
            > Connecticut with the body. Pls let me know if you need more info.
            >
            > Interestingly, Dyer as you see from his quote may be wrong on the
            > time/date of death--Thompson has 8:10 am 18 September as does
            Eicher;
            > Boatner has him dying on the 17th, but Thompson is born out by
            > Jerimiah Taylor re the departure from DC and his death "a few
            minutes
            > past eight o'clock." Dyer was at Mansfield's funeral and is
            mentioned
            > in Taylor's encomium.
            >
            > Larry F.
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, 128thpa@ wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Larry:  Does Winslow cite a source for this?  Up until now, I
            > couldn't confirm that Dyer was with Mansfield at Antietam.  I am
            not
            > saying he wasn't, I just couldn't find confirmation on this.  If
            he
            > was with Mansfield, I can't find any evidence that he was used by
            > Mansfield at Antietam.  I could see why Mansfield was described
            > as "fussy" by Williams. 
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Williams in a letter to his daughters writes: 
            > >
            > > “I had five new regiments without drill or discipline. (One of
            > these was the 128th PA) General Mansfield was greatly
            excited. . . .
            >   Feeling that our heavy masses of raw troops were sadly exposed,
            I
            > begged him to let me deploy them in line of battle, in which the
            men
            > present by two ranks or rows instead of twenty, as we were
            marching,
            > but I could not move him.   He was positive that all the new
            > regiments would run away.”  This from Williams' book, From the
            > Cannon’s Mouth,p. 125
            > >
            > >  Paula
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > <<This is from "General John Sedgwick: The Story of a Union Corps
            > > Commander," by Richard Elliot Winslow III: 
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > He left Washington on 13 September with another aide, Captain
            > > Clarence Dyer, and a black body servant, and arrived at
            McClellan's
            > > headquarters in Middletown, Maryland, on the 15th. There, he was
            > > quickly assigned to command of the 12th Corps after Sedgwick
            > declined
            > > and on the 16th was informed by General McClellan that he was to
            > move
            > > his corps to the Union right flank and support Hooker's 1st Corps
            > in
            > > an early morning attack on the next day, if needed. The general
            who
            > > had been temporarily in command of the 12th Corps, Brig. Gen.
            > Alpheus
            > > S. Williams, described Mansfield as "very fussy" having been "an
            > > engineer officer and never before had commanded large bodies of
            > > troops.">>
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
          • 128thpa@comcast.net
            Thank you for this Larry.  This is very helpful.  This has been something I have wanted to get more info on concerning my research on the 128th Pa.  As you
            Message 5 of 30 , Feb 16, 2009
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              Thank you for this Larry.  This is very helpful.  This has been something I have wanted to get more info on concerning my research on the 128th Pa.  As you know, there was a great deal of confusion that day, especially with the XII Corps, and even more so with the 128th. Their Colonel was killed almost immediately upon entering the battle, their Lt. Col was wounded and taken off the field.  Add the fact that they were green troops and super chaos is the only description of their time on the field.  I agree that McClellan should not have chosen Mansfield.  I have always felt that Williams was underestimated.



              Paula






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Thomas Clemens
              How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a corps? Wasn t it an order and not an invitation? No promotion involved, he was already a Major
              Message 6 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
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                How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion involved, he was already a Major General.







                Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                Professor of History
                Hagerstown Community College
              • eighth_conn_inf
                Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of Mac s staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather than I absolutely
                Message 7 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
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                  Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of
                  Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
                  than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
                  analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the AOP?

                  My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army is at
                  least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the command? I
                  don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that this is
                  not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle John
                  talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.

                  I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut Grove
                  Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
                  correct?
                  Larry F.

                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
                  corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
                  involved, he was already a Major General.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  > Professor of History
                  > Hagerstown Community College
                  >
                • Harry Smeltzer
                  Maybe it didn t happen as described. Maybe the narrator is imbuing himself with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut. Harry ... From:
                  Message 8 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
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                    Maybe it didn't happen as described. Maybe the narrator is imbuing himself
                    with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut.

                    Harry



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                    Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:43 PM
                    To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps



                    Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of
                    Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
                    than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
                    analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the AOP?

                    My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army is at
                    least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the command? I
                    don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that this is
                    not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle John
                    talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.

                    I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut Grove
                    Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
                    correct?
                    Larry F.

                    --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                    yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
                    corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
                    involved, he was already a Major General.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                    > Professor of History
                    > Hagerstown Community College
                    >





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Thomas Clemens
                    Yes, more like Chesnut Grove and Harpers Ferry Rd intersection and then over to the Antietam iron Furnace and the village of Antietam at the mouth of the
                    Message 9 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
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                      Yes, more like Chesnut Grove and Harpers Ferry Rd intersection and then over to the Antietam iron Furnace and the village of Antietam at the mouth of the creek. I am told by local hsitorians that the HF road from Sample's manor to Mills road did not exist and the cavalry followed Chesnut Grove to Mountain Lock Rd, or something like that.


                      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      Professor of History
                      Hagerstown Community College


                      >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 02/17/09 2:43 PM >>>
                      Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of
                      Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
                      than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
                      analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the AOP?

                      My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army is at
                      least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the command? I
                      don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that this is
                      not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle John
                      talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.

                      I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut Grove
                      Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
                      correct?
                      Larry F.

                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
                      corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
                      involved, he was already a Major General.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      > Professor of History
                      > Hagerstown Community College
                      >
                    • Harry Smeltzer
                      I read an interesting footnote in McDougall s Throes of Democracy - not a bad book on the period 1829-1877, though he has some major factual errors in the
                      Message 10 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
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                        I read an interesting footnote in McDougall's "Throes of Democracy" - not a
                        bad book on the period 1829-1877, though he has some major factual errors in
                        the Civil War chapter.

                        "The truth is Mary Boykin Miller Chesnut reinvented herself after Dixie's
                        demise like a real-life Scarlett O'Hara. She was indeed the wife of a
                        prominent Confederate politician, an eyewitness to many events, and an
                        ardent secessionist. But the 800 page diary she claimed to have written
                        during the war was in fact written (or expanded and rewritten) in the 1880s
                        and carefully tailored to the prejudices of the (mostly Yankee) bookseller's
                        market. It is easy to seem prophetic when you know all the outcomes in
                        advance. Woodward might have deceived himself about Chesnut for didactic
                        purposes, and the filmmaker Ken Burns for dramatic purposes, but Kenneth
                        Lynn put l'affaire Chesnut to rest in The Air-Line to Seattle: Studies in
                        Literary and Historical Writing about America (Chicago, Ill.: University of
                        Chacago, 1983), p. 59: 'She wrote a novel about the South during the Civil
                        War and called it a diary." Ergo, I shall not be quoting again from Mrs.
                        Chesnut."

                        It's not a bad book - it's sweeping, actually - but probably not
                        self-loathing enough for many readers these days. I can't imagine someone
                        like Zinn giving it two enthusiastic thumbs up.

                        Harry





                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                        Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
                        Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 4:21 PM
                        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps



                        Maybe it didn't happen as described. Maybe the narrator is imbuing himself
                        with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut.

                        Harry

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com] On
                        Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                        Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:43 PM
                        To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps

                        Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of
                        Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
                        than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
                        analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the AOP?

                        My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army is at
                        least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the command? I
                        don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that this is
                        not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle John
                        talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.

                        I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut Grove
                        Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
                        correct?
                        Larry F.

                        --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                        yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
                        corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
                        involved, he was already a Major General.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                        > Professor of History
                        > Hagerstown Community College
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Thomas Clemens
                        There is a written order, that as National Lampoon used to say is a true fact. Maybe the idea of refusing the honor is a viable process. But compareeto
                        Message 11 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          There is a written order, that as National Lampoon used to say is a "true fact." Maybe the idea of "refusing the honor" is a viable process. But compareeto Burnside, offered the command once or twice, refused it, then "ordered" to it in November. A very different situation.

                          Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                          Professor of History
                          Hagerstown Community College


                          >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> 02/17/09 4:21 PM >>>
                          Maybe it didn't happen as described. Maybe the narrator is imbuing himself
                          with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut.

                          Harry



                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                          Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                          Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:43 PM
                          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps



                          Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of
                          Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
                          than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
                          analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the AOP?

                          My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army is at
                          least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the command? I
                          don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that this is
                          not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle John
                          talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.

                          I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut Grove
                          Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
                          correct?
                          Larry F.

                          --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                          yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
                          corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
                          involved, he was already a Major General.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                          > Professor of History
                          > Hagerstown Community College
                          >





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • 128thpa@comcast.net
                          I teach a class at a local college on Civilians during the Civil War - while I use an equal amount of northern and southern letters and diaries, I do not use
                          Message 12 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I teach a class at a local college on Civilians during the Civil War - while I use an equal amount of northern and southern letters and diaries, I do not use Mary Chesnut.  Inevitably, I will be asked, why I don't use her diary or why don't I mention her.  To stop any further questions on her, I use this reasoning - I am trying to show you the every day person, those who led ordinary, common lives which were changed forever by either the war coming to them, or they going to help support the war.  Mary Chesnut, being the wife of a prominent politician, does not for me (whether true or false) convey that feeling.  She was a person of privilege and her opinions would not convey what the thinking of the every day person would be.



                            Paula



                             




                            I read an interesting footnote in McDougall's "Throes of Democracy" - not a
                            bad book on the period 1829-1877, though he has some major factual errors in
                            the Civil War chapter.

                            "The truth is Mary Boykin Miller Chesnut reinvented herself after Dixie's
                            demise like a real-life Scarlett O'Hara. She was indeed the wife of a
                            prominent Confederate politician, an eyewitness to many events, and an
                            ardent secessionist. But the 800 page diary she claimed to have written
                            during the war was in fact written (or expanded and rewritten) in the 1880s
                            and carefully tailored to the prejudices of the (mostly Yankee) bookseller's
                            market. It is easy to seem prophetic when you know all the outcomes in
                            advance. Woodward might have deceived himself about Chesnut for didactic
                            purposes, and the filmmaker Ken Burns for dramatic purposes, but Kenneth
                            Lynn put l'affaire Chesnut to rest in The Air-Line to Seattle: Studies in
                            Literary and Historical Writing about America (Chicago, Ill.: University of
                            Chacago, 1983), p. 59: 'She wrote a novel about the South during the Civil
                            War and called it a diary." Ergo, I shall not be quoting again from Mrs.
                            Chesnut."

                            It's not a bad book - it's sweeping, actually - but probably not
                            self-loathing enough for many readers these days. I can't imagine someone
                            like Zinn giving it two enthusiastic thumbs up.

                            Harry

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com ] On
                            Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
                            Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 4:21 PM
                            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps

                            Maybe it didn't happen as described. Maybe the narrator is imbuing himself
                            with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut.

                            Harry

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            yahoogroups.com] On
                            Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                            Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:43 PM
                            To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps

                            Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of
                            Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
                            than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
                            analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the AOP?

                            My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army is at
                            least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the command? I
                            don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that this is
                            not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle John
                            talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.

                            I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut Grove
                            Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
                            correct?
                            Larry F.

                            --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                            yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
                            corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
                            involved, he was already a Major General.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                            > Professor of History
                            > Hagerstown Community College
                            >

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • G E Mayers
                            Paula, Good point! Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one s mother s side, is an introduction
                            Message 13 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Paula,

                              Good point!

                              Yr. Obt. Svt.
                              G E "Gerry" Mayers

                              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: <128thpa@...>
                              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 5:52 PM
                              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Sedgwick and the 12th Corps




                              I teach a class at a local college on Civilians during the Civil
                              War - while I use an equal amount of northern and southern
                              letters and diaries, I do not use Mary Chesnut. Inevitably, I
                              will be asked, why I don't use her diary or why don't I mention
                              her. To stop any further questions on her, I use this reasoning -
                              I am trying to show you the every day person, those who led
                              ordinary, common lives which were changed forever by either the
                              war coming to them, or they going to help support the war. Mary
                              Chesnut, being the wife of a prominent politician, does not for
                              me (whether true or false) convey that feeling. She was a person
                              of privilege and her opinions would not convey what the thinking
                              of the every day person would be.



                              Paula








                              I read an interesting footnote in McDougall's "Throes of
                              Democracy" - not a
                              bad book on the period 1829-1877, though he has some major
                              factual errors in
                              the Civil War chapter.

                              "The truth is Mary Boykin Miller Chesnut reinvented herself after
                              Dixie's
                              demise like a real-life Scarlett O'Hara. She was indeed the wife
                              of a
                              prominent Confederate politician, an eyewitness to many events,
                              and an
                              ardent secessionist. But the 800 page diary she claimed to have
                              written
                              during the war was in fact written (or expanded and rewritten) in
                              the 1880s
                              and carefully tailored to the prejudices of the (mostly Yankee)
                              bookseller's
                              market. It is easy to seem prophetic when you know all the
                              outcomes in
                              advance. Woodward might have deceived himself about Chesnut for
                              didactic
                              purposes, and the filmmaker Ken Burns for dramatic purposes, but
                              Kenneth
                              Lynn put l'affaire Chesnut to rest in The Air-Line to Seattle:
                              Studies in
                              Literary and Historical Writing about America (Chicago, Ill.:
                              University of
                              Chacago, 1983), p. 59: 'She wrote a novel about the South during
                              the Civil
                              War and called it a diary." Ergo, I shall not be quoting again
                              from Mrs.
                              Chesnut."

                              It's not a bad book - it's sweeping, actually - but probably not
                              self-loathing enough for many readers these days. I can't imagine
                              someone
                              like Zinn giving it two enthusiastic thumbs up.

                              Harry

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
                              TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com ] On
                              Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
                              Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 4:21 PM
                              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps

                              Maybe it didn't happen as described. Maybe the narrator is
                              imbuing himself
                              with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut.

                              Harry

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              yahoogroups.com
                              [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              yahoogroups.com] On
                              Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                              Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:43 PM
                              To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps

                              Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one
                              of
                              Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
                              than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
                              analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the
                              AOP?

                              My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army
                              is at
                              least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the
                              command? I
                              don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that
                              this is
                              not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle
                              John
                              talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.

                              I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut
                              Grove
                              Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
                              correct?
                              Larry F.

                              --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                              yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
                              corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
                              involved, he was already a Major General.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                              > Professor of History
                              > Hagerstown Community College
                              >

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • eighth_conn_inf
                              Since we have the two orders, one on the 13th for Sedgwick and then one on the 15th appointing Mansfield, and nothing else, it makes it difficult to understand
                              Message 14 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Since we have the two orders, one on the 13th for Sedgwick and then
                                one on the 15th appointing Mansfield, and nothing else, it makes it
                                difficult to understand what transpired between McClellan and
                                Sedgwick. Since the only primary source is Gibbon's recollections,
                                and what he says makes sense, perhaps we are stuck with it.

                                I will buy his book to see if his "recollections" are as embellished
                                as many such as H. K. Douglas's and J. L. Chamberlain's. Evaluation
                                of primary sources can be interesting. I see that David Eicher calls
                                Gibbon's recollections "superb" and an "important memoir"
                                which "contributes lasting value about the war in the East. The
                                accounts relating to Second Bull Run, Antietam, ...are particularly
                                appealing." p. 167. Nevins calls it "Reliable, straightforward...."
                                p. 93, vol. I.

                                Larry F.

                                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > There is a written order, that as National Lampoon used to say is
                                a "true fact." Maybe the idea of "refusing the honor" is a viable
                                process. But compareeto Burnside, offered the command once or twice,
                                refused it, then "ordered" to it in November. A very different
                                situation.
                                >
                                > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                > Professor of History
                                > Hagerstown Community College
                                >
                                >
                                > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> 02/17/09 4:21 PM >>>
                                > Maybe it didn't happen as described. Maybe the narrator is imbuing
                                himself
                                > with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut.
                                >
                                > Harry
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:43 PM
                                > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of
                                > Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
                                > than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
                                > analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the
                                AOP?
                                >
                                > My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army is
                                at
                                > least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the
                                command? I
                                > don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that this
                                is
                                > not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle John
                                > talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.
                                >
                                > I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut
                                Grove
                                > Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
                                > correct?
                                > Larry F.
                                >
                                > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                                > wrote:
                                > >
                                > > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
                                > corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
                                > involved, he was already a Major General.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                > > Professor of History
                                > > Hagerstown Community College
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • G E Mayers
                                Larry; Sounds to me that at least two authors found the memoir to be without much Victorian hyperbole! Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian,
                                Message 15 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Larry;

                                  Sounds to me that at least two authors found the memoir to be
                                  without much Victorian hyperbole!

                                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 8:02 PM
                                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps


                                  Since we have the two orders, one on the 13th for Sedgwick and
                                  then
                                  one on the 15th appointing Mansfield, and nothing else, it makes
                                  it
                                  difficult to understand what transpired between McClellan and
                                  Sedgwick. Since the only primary source is Gibbon's
                                  recollections,
                                  and what he says makes sense, perhaps we are stuck with it.

                                  I will buy his book to see if his "recollections" are as
                                  embellished
                                  as many such as H. K. Douglas's and J. L. Chamberlain's.
                                  Evaluation
                                  of primary sources can be interesting. I see that David Eicher
                                  calls
                                  Gibbon's recollections "superb" and an "important memoir"
                                  which "contributes lasting value about the war in the East. The
                                  accounts relating to Second Bull Run, Antietam, ...are
                                  particularly
                                  appealing." p. 167. Nevins calls it "Reliable,
                                  straightforward...."
                                  p. 93, vol. I.

                                  Larry F.

                                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                  <clemenst@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > There is a written order, that as National Lampoon used to say
                                  > is
                                  a "true fact." Maybe the idea of "refusing the honor" is a
                                  viable
                                  process. But compareeto Burnside, offered the command once or
                                  twice,
                                  refused it, then "ordered" to it in November. A very different
                                  situation.
                                  >
                                  > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                  > Professor of History
                                  > Hagerstown Community College
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> 02/17/09 4:21 PM >>>
                                  > Maybe it didn't happen as described. Maybe the narrator is
                                  > imbuing
                                  himself
                                  > with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut.
                                  >
                                  > Harry
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                  > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:43 PM
                                  > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or
                                  > one of
                                  > Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command
                                  > rather
                                  > than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
                                  > analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of
                                  > the
                                  AOP?
                                  >
                                  > My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or
                                  > army is
                                  at
                                  > least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the
                                  command? I
                                  > don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that
                                  > this
                                  is
                                  > not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle
                                  > John
                                  > talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.
                                  >
                                  > I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of
                                  > Chestnut
                                  Grove
                                  > Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is
                                  > that
                                  > correct?
                                  > Larry F.
                                  >
                                  > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of
                                  > > a
                                  > corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
                                  > involved, he was already a Major General.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                  > > Professor of History
                                  > > Hagerstown Community College
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • eighth_conn_inf
                                  Harry, Eicher also mentions Woodward s research about when the diary was written and how it was embellished but still recommends it. He then notes that there
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Harry,

                                    Eicher also mentions Woodward's research about when the diary was
                                    written and how it was embellished but still recommends it. He then
                                    notes that there is a "true" diary which gives the exact text of her
                                    original diaries written during the war: "The Private Mary Chestnut:
                                    The Unpublished Civil War Diaries" ed by C. Vann Woodward and
                                    Elisabeth Muhlenfeld. Has anyone read this?

                                    Larry F.


                                    In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I read an interesting footnote in McDougall's "Throes of
                                    Democracy" - not a
                                    > bad book on the period 1829-1877, though he has some major factual
                                    errors in
                                    > the Civil War chapter.
                                    >
                                    > "The truth is Mary Boykin Miller Chesnut reinvented herself after
                                    Dixie's
                                    > demise like a real-life Scarlett O'Hara. She was indeed the wife
                                    of a
                                    > prominent Confederate politician, an eyewitness to many events, and
                                    an
                                    > ardent secessionist. But the 800 page diary she claimed to have
                                    written
                                    > during the war was in fact written (or expanded and rewritten) in
                                    the 1880s
                                    > and carefully tailored to the prejudices of the (mostly Yankee)
                                    bookseller's
                                    > market. It is easy to seem prophetic when you know all the
                                    outcomes in
                                    > advance. Woodward might have deceived himself about Chesnut for
                                    didactic
                                    > purposes, and the filmmaker Ken Burns for dramatic purposes, but
                                    Kenneth
                                    > Lynn put l'affaire Chesnut to rest in The Air-Line to Seattle:
                                    Studies in
                                    > Literary and Historical Writing about America (Chicago, Ill.:
                                    University of
                                    > Chacago, 1983), p. 59: 'She wrote a novel about the South during
                                    the Civil
                                    > War and called it a diary." Ergo, I shall not be quoting again
                                    from Mrs.
                                    > Chesnut."
                                    >
                                    > It's not a bad book - it's sweeping, actually - but probably not
                                    > self-loathing enough for many readers these days. I can't imagine
                                    someone
                                    > like Zinn giving it two enthusiastic thumbs up.
                                    >
                                    > Harry
                                    >
                                  • 128thpa@comcast.net
                                    Thanks Gerry! Paula ... From: G E Mayers To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:36:54 PM GMT -05:00
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Thanks Gerry!

                                      Paula
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:36:54 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Sedgwick and the 12th Corps






                                      Paula,

                                      Good point!

                                      Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                      G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                      >



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                                    • eighth_conn_inf
                                      Thanks Tom, This helps flesh out my Escape from Harpers Ferry chapter re the Jeff Davis Legion. Knowing period roads helps understand whether or not what the
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Feb 18, 2009
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                                        Thanks Tom,

                                        This helps flesh out my "Escape from Harpers Ferry" chapter re the
                                        Jeff Davis Legion. Knowing period roads helps understand whether or
                                        not what the sources say is plausible.

                                        Larry

                                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Yes, more like Chesnut Grove and Harpers Ferry Rd intersection and
                                        then over to the Antietam iron Furnace and the village of Antietam at
                                        the mouth of the creek. I am told by local historians that the HF
                                        road from Sample's manor to Mills road did not exist and the cavalry
                                        followed Chesnut Grove to Mountain Lock Rd, or something like that.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                        > Professor of History
                                        > Hagerstown Community College
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 02/17/09 2:43 PM >>>
                                        > Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of
                                        > Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
                                        > than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
                                        > analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the
                                        AOP?
                                        >
                                        > My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army is
                                        at
                                        > least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the
                                        command? I
                                        > don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that this
                                        is
                                        > not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle John
                                        > talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.
                                        >
                                        > I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut
                                        Grove
                                        > Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
                                        > correct?
                                        > Larry F.
                                        >
                                        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
                                        > corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
                                        > involved, he was already a Major General.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                        > > Professor of History
                                        > > Hagerstown Community College
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • Teej Smith
                                        Larry wrote: Since we have the two orders, one on the 13th for Sedgwick and then one on the 15th appointing Mansfield, and nothing else, it makes it difficult
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Feb 18, 2009
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                                          Larry wrote:

                                          Since we have the two orders, one on the 13th for Sedgwick and then
                                          one on the 15th appointing Mansfield, and nothing else, it makes it
                                          difficult to understand what transpired between McClellan and
                                          Sedgwick. Since the only primary source is Gibbon's recollections,
                                          and what he says makes sense, perhaps we are stuck with it.

                                          Sorry for joining the discussion so late. If someone has already mentioned this, my apologies. There is a very short biography of Sedgwick written in 1982 by Richard Elliott Winslow III. Winslow wrote that Sedgwick was at "Farm Willow Grove" when he received the orders directing him to take command of 12th Corps. He quotes from the orders citing the ORs and then wrote, "It was a most tempting assignment if one desired rapid promotion. But Sedgwick declined the command, as he 'felt he could do better service with the troops which he knew and which knew him;' The cite for this brief quote is a manuscript written by one of Sedgwick's aides, Capt. Charles Albert Whittier. Whittier's manuscript is titled, "Reminiscences of the War, 1861-1865 or Egotistic Memoirs, C.A.W. Feb. 13, 1888. At the writing of the biography a typescript of the manuscript could be found at Boston Public Library, Boston, Mass.

                                          Regards,
                                          Teej




                                          .



                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • eighth_conn_inf
                                          Thanks Teej, I have Winslow and use it extensively for Sedgwick info. I was hoping to find something written by McClellan or Sedgwick about this but Gibbon s
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Feb 18, 2009
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                                            Thanks Teej,

                                            I have Winslow and use it extensively for Sedgwick info. I was hoping
                                            to find something written by McClellan or Sedgwick about this but
                                            Gibbon's and Whittier's quotes which basically agree with each other
                                            are better than nothing. I've found nothing in the OR's about this
                                            other than the two assignments for Sedgwick and Mansfield--still
                                            looking.

                                            Larry

                                            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Teej Smith" <teej@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Larry wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Since we have the two orders, one on the 13th for Sedgwick and
                                            then
                                            > one on the 15th appointing Mansfield, and nothing else, it makes
                                            it
                                            > difficult to understand what transpired between McClellan and
                                            > Sedgwick. Since the only primary source is Gibbon's
                                            recollections,
                                            > and what he says makes sense, perhaps we are stuck with it.
                                            >
                                            > Sorry for joining the discussion so late. If someone has
                                            already mentioned this, my apologies. There is a very short
                                            biography of Sedgwick written in 1982 by Richard Elliott Winslow
                                            III. Winslow wrote that Sedgwick was at "Farm Willow Grove" when he
                                            received the orders directing him to take command of 12th Corps. He
                                            quotes from the orders citing the ORs and then wrote, "It was a most
                                            tempting assignment if one desired rapid promotion. But Sedgwick
                                            declined the command, as he 'felt he could do better service with the
                                            troops which he knew and which knew him;' The cite for this brief
                                            quote is a manuscript written by one of Sedgwick's aides, Capt.
                                            Charles Albert Whittier. Whittier's manuscript is
                                            titled, "Reminiscences of the War, 1861-1865 or Egotistic Memoirs,
                                            C.A.W. Feb. 13, 1888. At the writing of the biography a typescript of
                                            the manuscript could be found at Boston Public Library, Boston, Mass.
                                            >
                                            > Regards,
                                            > Teej
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > .
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
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