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Sedgwick and the 12th Corps

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  • William H Keene
    On September 13th, 1862, the following order was issued from Headquarters of the Army of the Potomac: Maj. Gen. J. Sedgwick is assigned, temporarily, to the
    Message 1 of 30 , Feb 15, 2009
      On September 13th, 1862, the following order was issued from
      Headquarters of the Army of the Potomac:

      "Maj. Gen. J. Sedgwick is assigned, temporarily, to the command of
      the Second (Banks') Corps, late Army of Virginia, and will immediately
      enter upon duty accordingly. Brig. Gen. 0. 0. Howard will relieve
      Major-General Sedgwick in the command of his division."

      However, 48 hours later, the following order was issued from the same
      source: "Brig. Gen. J. K. F. Mansfield is temporarily assigned to the
      command of Banks' corps."


      Did Sedgwick actually comply with this order during the 48 hours in
      question?

      Is this covered in "Unfurls those Colors"?
    • G E Mayers
      Are there any other orders relevant to this in the ORs? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
      Message 2 of 30 , Feb 15, 2009
        Are there any other orders relevant to this in the ORs?

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "William H Keene" <wh_keene@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 3:34 PM
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Sedgwick and the 12th Corps


        On September 13th, 1862, the following order was issued from
        Headquarters of the Army of the Potomac:

        "Maj. Gen. J. Sedgwick is assigned, temporarily, to the command
        of
        the Second (Banks') Corps, late Army of Virginia, and will
        immediately
        enter upon duty accordingly. Brig. Gen. 0. 0. Howard will relieve
        Major-General Sedgwick in the command of his division."

        However, 48 hours later, the following order was issued from the
        same
        source: "Brig. Gen. J. K. F. Mansfield is temporarily assigned to
        the
        command of Banks' corps."


        Did Sedgwick actually comply with this order during the 48 hours
        in
        question?

        Is this covered in "Unfurls those Colors"?
      • William H Keene
        There are relevant references to Mansfield -- asks Halleck for another assignment on 9/5; relieved of existing assignment and sent to McCellan on 9/9; assumes
        Message 3 of 30 , Feb 15, 2009
          There are relevant references to Mansfield -- asks Halleck for another
          assignment on 9/5; relieved of existing assignment and sent to
          McCellan on 9/9; assumes command of Banks' corps on 9/16; KIA 24 hours
          later.

          But cant find anything about Sedgwick's brief command of the corps.



          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
          >
          > Are there any other orders relevant to this in the ORs?
          >
          > Yr. Obt. Svt.
          > G E "Gerry" Mayers
          >
          > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "William H Keene" <wh_keene@...>
          > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 3:34 PM
          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Sedgwick and the 12th Corps
          >
          >
          > On September 13th, 1862, the following order was issued from
          > Headquarters of the Army of the Potomac:
          >
          > "Maj. Gen. J. Sedgwick is assigned, temporarily, to the command
          > of
          > the Second (Banks') Corps, late Army of Virginia, and will
          > immediately
          > enter upon duty accordingly. Brig. Gen. 0. 0. Howard will relieve
          > Major-General Sedgwick in the command of his division."
          >
          > However, 48 hours later, the following order was issued from the
          > same
          > source: "Brig. Gen. J. K. F. Mansfield is temporarily assigned to
          > the
          > command of Banks' corps."
          >
          >
          > Did Sedgwick actually comply with this order during the 48 hours
          > in
          > question?
          >
          > Is this covered in "Unfurls those Colors"?
          >
        • G E Mayers
          But wasn t Sedgwick a divisional commander in the Second Corps at that time? Maybe it was only a paper command? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A
          Message 4 of 30 , Feb 15, 2009
            But wasn't Sedgwick a divisional commander in the Second Corps at
            that time? Maybe it was only a "paper" command?

            Yr. Obt. Svt.
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "William H Keene" <wh_keene@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 5:38 PM
            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps


            There are relevant references to Mansfield -- asks Halleck for
            another
            assignment on 9/5; relieved of existing assignment and sent to
            McCellan on 9/9; assumes command of Banks' corps on 9/16; KIA 24
            hours
            later.

            But cant find anything about Sedgwick's brief command of the
            corps.



            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Are there any other orders relevant to this in the ORs?
            >
            > Yr. Obt. Svt.
            > G E "Gerry" Mayers
            >
            > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
            > from
            > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "William H Keene" <wh_keene@...>
            > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 3:34 PM
            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Sedgwick and the 12th Corps
            >
            >
            > On September 13th, 1862, the following order was issued from
            > Headquarters of the Army of the Potomac:
            >
            > "Maj. Gen. J. Sedgwick is assigned, temporarily, to the command
            > of
            > the Second (Banks') Corps, late Army of Virginia, and will
            > immediately
            > enter upon duty accordingly. Brig. Gen. 0. 0. Howard will
            > relieve
            > Major-General Sedgwick in the command of his division."
            >
            > However, 48 hours later, the following order was issued from
            > the
            > same
            > source: "Brig. Gen. J. K. F. Mansfield is temporarily assigned
            > to
            > the
            > command of Banks' corps."
            >
            >
            > Did Sedgwick actually comply with this order during the 48
            > hours
            > in
            > question?
            >
            > Is this covered in "Unfurls those Colors"?
            >
          • William H Keene
            He was a division commander in Sumner s Corps (2nd of the AotP). What do you mean by paper command?
            Message 5 of 30 , Feb 15, 2009
              He was a division commander in Sumner's Corps (2nd of the AotP).
              What do you mean by "paper" command?

              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
              >
              > But wasn't Sedgwick a divisional commander in the Second Corps at
              > that time? Maybe it was only a "paper" command?
              >
              > Yr. Obt. Svt.
              > G E "Gerry" Mayers
              >
              > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "William H Keene" <wh_keene@...>
              > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 5:38 PM
              > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps
              >
              >
              > There are relevant references to Mansfield -- asks Halleck for
              > another
              > assignment on 9/5; relieved of existing assignment and sent to
              > McCellan on 9/9; assumes command of Banks' corps on 9/16; KIA 24
              > hours
              > later.
              >
              > But cant find anything about Sedgwick's brief command of the
              > corps.
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > Are there any other orders relevant to this in the ORs?
              > >
              > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
              > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
              > >
              > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
              > > from
              > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "William H Keene" <wh_keene@>
              > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 3:34 PM
              > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Sedgwick and the 12th Corps
              > >
              > >
              > > On September 13th, 1862, the following order was issued from
              > > Headquarters of the Army of the Potomac:
              > >
              > > "Maj. Gen. J. Sedgwick is assigned, temporarily, to the command
              > > of
              > > the Second (Banks') Corps, late Army of Virginia, and will
              > > immediately
              > > enter upon duty accordingly. Brig. Gen. 0. 0. Howard will
              > > relieve
              > > Major-General Sedgwick in the command of his division."
              > >
              > > However, 48 hours later, the following order was issued from
              > > the
              > > same
              > > source: "Brig. Gen. J. K. F. Mansfield is temporarily assigned
              > > to
              > > the
              > > command of Banks' corps."
              > >
              > >
              > > Did Sedgwick actually comply with this order during the 48
              > > hours
              > > in
              > > question?
              > >
              > > Is this covered in "Unfurls those Colors"?
              > >
              >
            • G E Mayers
              Um, wondering if it was just to have someone in command pending arrival of Mansfield? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth,
              Message 6 of 30 , Feb 15, 2009
                Um, wondering if it was just to have someone in command pending
                arrival of Mansfield?

                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "William H Keene" <wh_keene@...>
                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 8:09 PM
                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps


                He was a division commander in Sumner's Corps (2nd of the AotP).
                What do you mean by "paper" command?

                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > But wasn't Sedgwick a divisional commander in the Second Corps
                > at
                > that time? Maybe it was only a "paper" command?
                >
                > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                >
                > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                > from
                > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "William H Keene" <wh_keene@...>
                > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 5:38 PM
                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps
                >
                >
                > There are relevant references to Mansfield -- asks Halleck for
                > another
                > assignment on 9/5; relieved of existing assignment and sent to
                > McCellan on 9/9; assumes command of Banks' corps on 9/16; KIA
                > 24
                > hours
                > later.
                >
                > But cant find anything about Sedgwick's brief command of the
                > corps.
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > Are there any other orders relevant to this in the ORs?
                > >
                > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                > >
                > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
                > > even
                > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in
                > > the
                > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                > > from
                > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: "William H Keene" <wh_keene@>
                > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 3:34 PM
                > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Sedgwick and the 12th Corps
                > >
                > >
                > > On September 13th, 1862, the following order was issued from
                > > Headquarters of the Army of the Potomac:
                > >
                > > "Maj. Gen. J. Sedgwick is assigned, temporarily, to the
                > > command
                > > of
                > > the Second (Banks') Corps, late Army of Virginia, and will
                > > immediately
                > > enter upon duty accordingly. Brig. Gen. 0. 0. Howard will
                > > relieve
                > > Major-General Sedgwick in the command of his division."
                > >
                > > However, 48 hours later, the following order was issued from
                > > the
                > > same
                > > source: "Brig. Gen. J. K. F. Mansfield is temporarily
                > > assigned
                > > to
                > > the
                > > command of Banks' corps."
                > >
                > >
                > > Did Sedgwick actually comply with this order during the 48
                > > hours
                > > in
                > > question?
                > >
                > > Is this covered in "Unfurls those Colors"?
                > >
                >
              • William H Keene
                Doesn t make sense to me. Gen. Williams was acting as Corps commander in Banks absence. The order for Banks to take command the defenses of Washington was
                Message 7 of 30 , Feb 15, 2009
                  Doesn't make sense to me. Gen. Williams was acting as Corps
                  commander in Banks absence. The order for Banks to take command the
                  defenses of Washington was issued on the 7th. So if McCellan wanted
                  someone other than Williams to command the Corps, why wait until the
                  13th to Sedgwick? Why wait until a day or so later to issue the order
                  for Mansfield? Did he even know Mansfield was coming?



                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Um, wondering if it was just to have someone in command pending
                  > arrival of Mansfield?
                  >
                  > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                  >
                  > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "William H Keene" <wh_keene@...>
                  > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 8:09 PM
                  > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps
                  >
                  >
                  > He was a division commander in Sumner's Corps (2nd of the AotP).
                  > What do you mean by "paper" command?
                  >
                  > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > But wasn't Sedgwick a divisional commander in the Second Corps
                  > > at
                  > > that time? Maybe it was only a "paper" command?
                  > >
                  > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                  > >
                  > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                  > > from
                  > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: "William H Keene" <wh_keene@>
                  > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 5:38 PM
                  > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > There are relevant references to Mansfield -- asks Halleck for
                  > > another
                  > > assignment on 9/5; relieved of existing assignment and sent to
                  > > McCellan on 9/9; assumes command of Banks' corps on 9/16; KIA
                  > > 24
                  > > hours
                  > > later.
                  > >
                  > > But cant find anything about Sedgwick's brief command of the
                  > > corps.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Are there any other orders relevant to this in the ORs?
                  > > >
                  > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                  > > >
                  > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
                  > > > even
                  > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in
                  > > > the
                  > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                  > > > from
                  > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > From: "William H Keene" <wh_keene@>
                  > > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 3:34 PM
                  > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Sedgwick and the 12th Corps
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > On September 13th, 1862, the following order was issued from
                  > > > Headquarters of the Army of the Potomac:
                  > > >
                  > > > "Maj. Gen. J. Sedgwick is assigned, temporarily, to the
                  > > > command
                  > > > of
                  > > > the Second (Banks') Corps, late Army of Virginia, and will
                  > > > immediately
                  > > > enter upon duty accordingly. Brig. Gen. 0. 0. Howard will
                  > > > relieve
                  > > > Major-General Sedgwick in the command of his division."
                  > > >
                  > > > However, 48 hours later, the following order was issued from
                  > > > the
                  > > > same
                  > > > source: "Brig. Gen. J. K. F. Mansfield is temporarily
                  > > > assigned
                  > > > to
                  > > > the
                  > > > command of Banks' corps."
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Did Sedgwick actually comply with this order during the 48
                  > > > hours
                  > > > in
                  > > > question?
                  > > >
                  > > > Is this covered in "Unfurls those Colors"?
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • William H Keene
                  Wert in Sword of Lincoln claims McClellan wanted Segwick to command the Corps but he refused; Mansfield was the second choice. I think there is more detail
                  Message 8 of 30 , Feb 15, 2009
                    Wert in "Sword of Lincoln" claims McClellan wanted Segwick to command
                    the Corps but he refused; Mansfield was the second choice. I think
                    there is more detail in "Unfurl Those Colors" but I dont have access
                    to it.

                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Um, wondering if it was just to have someone in command pending
                    > arrival of Mansfield?
                    >
                    > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                    >
                    > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                    > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "William H Keene" <wh_keene@...>
                    > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 8:09 PM
                    > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps
                    >
                    >
                    > He was a division commander in Sumner's Corps (2nd of the AotP).
                    > What do you mean by "paper" command?
                    >
                    > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > But wasn't Sedgwick a divisional commander in the Second Corps
                    > > at
                    > > that time? Maybe it was only a "paper" command?
                    > >
                    > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                    > >
                    > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                    > > from
                    > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: "William H Keene" <wh_keene@>
                    > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 5:38 PM
                    > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > There are relevant references to Mansfield -- asks Halleck for
                    > > another
                    > > assignment on 9/5; relieved of existing assignment and sent to
                    > > McCellan on 9/9; assumes command of Banks' corps on 9/16; KIA
                    > > 24
                    > > hours
                    > > later.
                    > >
                    > > But cant find anything about Sedgwick's brief command of the
                    > > corps.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Are there any other orders relevant to this in the ORs?
                    > > >
                    > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                    > > >
                    > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
                    > > > even
                    > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in
                    > > > the
                    > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                    > > > from
                    > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > From: "William H Keene" <wh_keene@>
                    > > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 3:34 PM
                    > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Sedgwick and the 12th Corps
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > On September 13th, 1862, the following order was issued from
                    > > > Headquarters of the Army of the Potomac:
                    > > >
                    > > > "Maj. Gen. J. Sedgwick is assigned, temporarily, to the
                    > > > command
                    > > > of
                    > > > the Second (Banks') Corps, late Army of Virginia, and will
                    > > > immediately
                    > > > enter upon duty accordingly. Brig. Gen. 0. 0. Howard will
                    > > > relieve
                    > > > Major-General Sedgwick in the command of his division."
                    > > >
                    > > > However, 48 hours later, the following order was issued from
                    > > > the
                    > > > same
                    > > > source: "Brig. Gen. J. K. F. Mansfield is temporarily
                    > > > assigned
                    > > > to
                    > > > the
                    > > > command of Banks' corps."
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Did Sedgwick actually comply with this order during the 48
                    > > > hours
                    > > > in
                    > > > question?
                    > > >
                    > > > Is this covered in "Unfurls those Colors"?
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • RoteBaron
                    From UNFURL THOSE COLORS by Marion Armstrong: General McClellan was not comfortable with Williams as the commander of the newly designated Twelfth Army
                    Message 9 of 30 , Feb 15, 2009
                      From "UNFURL THOSE COLORS" by Marion Armstrong:

                      General McClellan was not comfortable with Williams as the commander of the newly designated Twelfth Army Corps. Williams was the only corps commander then with the Army of the Potomac without professional training. .......Williams was now commanding the corps because of the absence of Banks, who remained in Washington in charge of the city's defenses.

                      On the afternoon of the thirteenth, McClellan reviewed a list of candidates to take temporary command of Williams's corps, selected John Sedgwick, and directed his assistant adjutant general, Colonel Albert V. Colburn, to publish the order. Colburn demurred, saying to McClellan, " I don't think Gen. Sedgwick wants it, General, I think he would rather command his present division." McClellan, however, would not be dissuaded and told Colburn that Sedgwick must take the position.

                      When Sedgwick received the order at his headquarters that afternoon, he declined the temporary advancement, as Colburn had predicted he would, saying,"He felt that he could do better service with the troops which he knew and which knew him." No more was said concerning the matter, and Sedgwick continued during the campaign to command his division of the Second Army Corps."

                      Tom Shay

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: William H Keene
                      To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 3:34 PM
                      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Sedgwick and the 12th Corps


                      On September 13th, 1862, the following order was issued from
                      Headquarters of the Army of the Potomac:

                      "Maj. Gen. J. Sedgwick is assigned, temporarily, to the command of
                      the Second (Banks') Corps, late Army of Virginia, and will immediately
                      enter upon duty accordingly. Brig. Gen. 0. 0. Howard will relieve
                      Major-General Sedgwick in the command of his division."

                      However, 48 hours later, the following order was issued from the same
                      source: "Brig. Gen. J. K. F. Mansfield is temporarily assigned to the
                      command of Banks' corps."

                      Did Sedgwick actually comply with this order during the 48 hours in
                      question?

                      Is this covered in "Unfurls those Colors"?





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • William H Keene
                      Tom, That was very generous of you. Thank you. Will ... of the newly designated Twelfth Army Corps. Williams was the only corps commander then with the Army
                      Message 10 of 30 , Feb 15, 2009
                        Tom,

                        That was very generous of you. Thank you.

                        Will

                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > From "UNFURL THOSE COLORS" by Marion Armstrong:
                        >
                        > General McClellan was not comfortable with Williams as the commander
                        of the newly designated Twelfth Army Corps. Williams was the only
                        corps commander then with the Army of the Potomac without professional
                        training. .......Williams was now commanding the corps because of the
                        absence of Banks, who remained in Washington in charge of the city's
                        defenses.
                        >
                        > On the afternoon of the thirteenth, McClellan reviewed a list of
                        candidates to take temporary command of Williams's corps, selected
                        John Sedgwick, and directed his assistant adjutant general, Colonel
                        Albert V. Colburn, to publish the order. Colburn demurred, saying to
                        McClellan, " I don't think Gen. Sedgwick wants it, General, I think
                        he would rather command his present division." McClellan, however,
                        would not be dissuaded and told Colburn that Sedgwick must take the
                        position.
                        >
                        > When Sedgwick received the order at his headquarters that afternoon,
                        he declined the temporary advancement, as Colburn had predicted he
                        would, saying,"He felt that he could do better service with the troops
                        which he knew and which knew him." No more was said concerning the
                        matter, and Sedgwick continued during the campaign to command his
                        division of the Second Army Corps."
                        >
                        > Tom Shay
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: William H Keene
                        > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 3:34 PM
                        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Sedgwick and the 12th Corps
                        >
                        >
                        > On September 13th, 1862, the following order was issued from
                        > Headquarters of the Army of the Potomac:
                        >
                        > "Maj. Gen. J. Sedgwick is assigned, temporarily, to the command of
                        > the Second (Banks') Corps, late Army of Virginia, and will immediately
                        > enter upon duty accordingly. Brig. Gen. 0. 0. Howard will relieve
                        > Major-General Sedgwick in the command of his division."
                        >
                        > However, 48 hours later, the following order was issued from the same
                        > source: "Brig. Gen. J. K. F. Mansfield is temporarily assigned to the
                        > command of Banks' corps."
                        >
                        > Did Sedgwick actually comply with this order during the 48 hours in
                        > question?
                        >
                        > Is this covered in "Unfurls those Colors"?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • eighth_conn_inf
                        This is from General John Sedgwick: The Story of a Union Corps Commander, by Richard Elliot Winslow III: Visiting in McClellan s tent, Brig. Gen. John
                        Message 11 of 30 , Feb 16, 2009
                          This is from "General John Sedgwick: The Story of a Union Corps
                          Commander," by Richard Elliot Winslow III:

                          "Visiting in McClellan's tent, Brig. Gen. John Gibbon was present as
                          Little Mac struggled to find a suitable replacement for General
                          Willaims of the 12th Corps. (The commanding general was still
                          reorganizing his army while it was on the march.) Although he was a
                          capable soldier, Williams lacked a West Point education and was
                          unfortunately associated with the failures of General Banks.
                          According to Gibbon, one of McClellan's aides read off Sedgwick's
                          name among others. McClellan said, "'He will do. Publish an order
                          assigning Sedgwick to command that corps.'" The aid protested, "I
                          don't think General Sedgwick wants it, General, I think he would
                          rather command his present division." McClellan answered, "'I can't
                          help that. He must take it. Issue the order.'" Source is Gibbon, 73-
                          74.

                          "At Farm Willow Grove, Sedgwick received special orders assigning him
                          temporarily "'to the command of the Second (Banks's)Corps, late the
                          Army of the Virginia, and will immediately enter upon duty
                          accordingly. Brig. Gen. O. O. Howard will relieve...Sedgwick in
                          command of the division.' It was a most tempting assignment if one
                          desired rapid promotion. But Sedgwick declined the command, as
                          he 'felt he could do better service with the troops which he knew and
                          whick knew him'; he placed this consideration above advancement."

                          From a paper I wrote: Mansfield returned to Washington doing little
                          of consequence awaiting another assignment. He did, however, meet
                          with friends in Washington including an audience with Secretary of
                          the Treasury, Salmon P. Chase, on 8 September perhaps helped by his
                          Connecticut friend, Secretary of the Navy Gideon Welles. Finally,
                          his efforts succeeded and he was given a field command with
                          McClellan's forces which were heading to western Maryland in pursuit
                          of Lee's Army of Northern Virginia. Once he was assigned, he wrote to
                          his son, Samuel, a recent West Point graduate, to [f]ill your pockets
                          with sandwiches and follow me, appointing the lieutenant his aide and
                          chief engineer and headed west. Six days later Samuel's father was
                          dead before he could join him. While one cannot say that he had any
                          premonition of death upon being granted this, his first major
                          command, he wrote to a former West Point professor saying "if I never
                          see you again …I have not forgotten your inestimable favors to me."

                          He left Washington on 13 September with another aide, Captain
                          Clarence Dyer, and a black body servant, and arrived at McClellan's
                          headquarters in Middletown, Maryland, on the 15th. There, he was
                          quickly assigned to command of the 12th Corps after Sedgwick declined
                          and on the 16th was informed by General McClellan that he was to move
                          his corps to the Union right flank and support Hooker's 1st Corps in
                          an early morning attack on the next day, if needed. The general who
                          had been temporarily in command of the 12th Corps, Brig. Gen. Alpheus
                          S. Williams, described Mansfield as "very fussy" having been "an
                          engineer officer and never before had commanded large bodies of
                          troops."

                          Larry F.





                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "William H Keene" <wh_keene@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > On September 13th, 1862, the following order was issued from
                          > Headquarters of the Army of the Potomac:
                          >
                          > "Maj. Gen. J. Sedgwick is assigned, temporarily, to the command of
                          > the Second (Banks') Corps, late Army of Virginia, and will
                          immediately
                          > enter upon duty accordingly. Brig. Gen. 0. 0. Howard will relieve
                          > Major-General Sedgwick in the command of his division."
                          >
                          > However, 48 hours later, the following order was issued from the
                          same
                          > source: "Brig. Gen. J. K. F. Mansfield is temporarily assigned to
                          the
                          > command of Banks' corps."
                          >
                          >
                          > Did Sedgwick actually comply with this order during the 48 hours in
                          > question?
                          >
                          > Is this covered in "Unfurls those Colors"?
                          >
                        • 128thpa@comcast.net
                          Larry:  Does Winslow cite a source for this?  Up until now, I couldn t confirm that Dyer was with Mansfield at Antietam.  I am not saying he wasn t, I just
                          Message 12 of 30 , Feb 16, 2009
                            Larry:  Does Winslow cite a source for this?  Up until now, I couldn't confirm that Dyer was with Mansfield at Antietam.  I am not saying he wasn't, I just couldn't find confirmation on this.  If he was with Mansfield, I can't find any evidence that he was used by Mansfield at Antietam.  I could see why Mansfield was described as "fussy" by Williams. 



                            Williams in a letter to his daughters writes: 

                            “I had five new regiments without drill or discipline. (One of these was the 128th PA) General Mansfield was greatly excited. . . .   Feeling that our heavy masses of raw troops were sadly exposed, I begged him to let me deploy them in line of battle, in which the men present by two ranks or rows instead of twenty, as we were marching, but I could not move him.   He was positive that all the new regiments would run away.”  This from Williams' book, From the Cannon’s Mouth,p. 125

                             Paula



                            <<This is from "General John Sedgwick: The Story of a Union Corps
                            Commander," by Richard Elliot Winslow III: 





                            He left Washington on 13 September with another aide, Captain
                            Clarence Dyer, and a black body servant, and arrived at McClellan's
                            headquarters in Middletown, Maryland, on the 15th. There, he was
                            quickly assigned to command of the 12th Corps after Sedgwick declined
                            and on the 16th was informed by General McClellan that he was to move
                            his corps to the Union right flank and support Hooker's 1st Corps in
                            an early morning attack on the next day, if needed. The general who
                            had been temporarily in command of the 12th Corps, Brig. Gen. Alpheus
                            S. Williams, described Mansfield as "very fussy" having been "an
                            engineer officer and never before had commanded large bodies of
                            troops.">>


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • eighth_conn_inf
                            Paula, Thank you for that reminder of what Williams said. I suppose from what he said about Mansfield earlier in the book that likely Mansfield was up most of
                            Message 13 of 30 , Feb 16, 2009
                              Paula,

                              Thank you for that reminder of what Williams said. I suppose from
                              what he said about Mansfield earlier in the book that likely
                              Mansfield was up most of the night and perhaps wasn't performing
                              100%. In my opinion, McClellan made a mistake; he should not have
                              given the corps to Mansfield who had little knowledge about it or its
                              capabilities.

                              My earlier reply had two major quotes, one from Winslow and one from
                              a paper I did which is on the MHO website; sorry I didn't make that
                              clear. The paper is as follows: "Nutmeggers on Antietam Creek: Major
                              Generals Joseph K. F. Mansfield, John Sedgwick, and Connecticut
                              Regiments in the Maryland Campaign. 2 September through 20 September
                              1862." Link:

                              http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/civilwar/articles/nutmeggers1.asp
                              x

                              Its footnotes may help.

                              Re my above on Mansfield sleeping: John Mead Gould said that
                              Mansfield did bed down that night: pg. 6 of "The Mortal Wounding of
                              General Mansfield at Antietam 17 September 1862."

                              Dyer was generally not recognized by participants as on
                              Mansfield's "staff" since he, and Capt. James W. Forsyth, who was
                              assigned to Mansfield's staff by McClellan, were busy
                              and not usually near the general. Gould, on pg. 21, quotes Dyer who
                              wrote the following in 1891:

                              "At the time the General was mortally wounded, I was not near him, as
                              he had given me an order to bring the command of General Crawford to
                              the front. It was halted somewhat to the rear and our left. When I
                              returned, I found that the General was being removed to the rear, but
                              by the men of what regiment I do not know. I remained with him until
                              he died, which must have been about one o'clock P.M. on the
                              17th...Where the General fell was a little to our left of the woods--
                              a cornfield was directly in front. I am very sure that the General
                              was not killed by the men of the [Confederate] command in front of
                              the Tenth Maine. I am positive as to this."

                              Another book, "Texas & New Mexico on the Eve of the Civil War: The
                              Mansfield & Johnston Inspections, 1859 - 1861," edited by Jerry
                              Thompson, which has a good, albeit short, bio about Mansfield in its
                              concluding chapter, talks about Dyer leaving with Mansfield from DC
                              on pg.198. He cites Mansfield Papers in the Middlesex (Conn)
                              Historical Society. He also cites the statement of Capt. Clarence H.
                              Dyer, Oct. 10, 1862, USMA.

                              It seems to me that Dyer was in fact with Mansfield from the time he
                              left DC to the time he died and then with Mansfield's son, to
                              Connecticut with the body. Pls let me know if you need more info.

                              Interestingly, Dyer as you see from his quote may be wrong on the
                              time/date of death--Thompson has 8:10 am 18 September as does Eicher;
                              Boatner has him dying on the 17th, but Thompson is born out by
                              Jerimiah Taylor re the departure from DC and his death "a few minutes
                              past eight o'clock." Dyer was at Mansfield's funeral and is mentioned
                              in Taylor's encomium.

                              Larry F.



                              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, 128thpa@... wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Larry:  Does Winslow cite a source for this?  Up until now, I
                              couldn't confirm that Dyer was with Mansfield at Antietam.  I am not
                              saying he wasn't, I just couldn't find confirmation on this.  If he
                              was with Mansfield, I can't find any evidence that he was used by
                              Mansfield at Antietam.  I could see why Mansfield was described
                              as "fussy" by Williams. 
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Williams in a letter to his daughters writes: 
                              >
                              > “I had five new regiments without drill or discipline. (One of
                              these was the 128th PA) General Mansfield was greatly excited. . . .
                                Feeling that our heavy masses of raw troops were sadly exposed, I
                              begged him to let me deploy them in line of battle, in which the men
                              present by two ranks or rows instead of twenty, as we were marching,
                              but I could not move him.   He was positive that all the new
                              regiments would run away.”  This from Williams' book, From the
                              Cannon’s Mouth,p. 125
                              >
                              >  Paula
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > <<This is from "General John Sedgwick: The Story of a Union Corps
                              > Commander," by Richard Elliot Winslow III: 
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > He left Washington on 13 September with another aide, Captain
                              > Clarence Dyer, and a black body servant, and arrived at McClellan's
                              > headquarters in Middletown, Maryland, on the 15th. There, he was
                              > quickly assigned to command of the 12th Corps after Sedgwick
                              declined
                              > and on the 16th was informed by General McClellan that he was to
                              move
                              > his corps to the Union right flank and support Hooker's 1st Corps
                              in
                              > an early morning attack on the next day, if needed. The general who
                              > had been temporarily in command of the 12th Corps, Brig. Gen.
                              Alpheus
                              > S. Williams, described Mansfield as "very fussy" having been "an
                              > engineer officer and never before had commanded large bodies of
                              > troops.">>
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • eighth_conn_inf
                              Paula, For the link to my article in MHO, pls add an x to the link as it did not carry over since it was on a second line. Larry F. ... its ... from ...
                              Message 14 of 30 , Feb 16, 2009
                                Paula,

                                For the link to my article in MHO, pls add an "x" to the link as it
                                did not carry over since it was on a second line.

                                Larry F.

                                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                                <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Paula,
                                >
                                > Thank you for that reminder of what Williams said. I suppose from
                                > what he said about Mansfield earlier in the book that likely
                                > Mansfield was up most of the night and perhaps wasn't performing
                                > 100%. In my opinion, McClellan made a mistake; he should not have
                                > given the corps to Mansfield who had little knowledge about it or
                                its
                                > capabilities.
                                >
                                > My earlier reply had two major quotes, one from Winslow and one
                                from
                                > a paper I did which is on the MHO website; sorry I didn't make that
                                > clear. The paper is as follows: "Nutmeggers on Antietam Creek:
                                Major
                                > Generals Joseph K. F. Mansfield, John Sedgwick, and Connecticut
                                > Regiments in the Maryland Campaign. 2 September through 20
                                September
                                > 1862." Link:
                                >
                                >
                                http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/civilwar/articles/nutmeggers1.asp
                                > x
                                >
                                > Its footnotes may help.
                                >
                                > Re my above on Mansfield sleeping: John Mead Gould said that
                                > Mansfield did bed down that night: pg. 6 of "The Mortal Wounding of
                                > General Mansfield at Antietam 17 September 1862."
                                >
                                > Dyer was generally not recognized by participants as on
                                > Mansfield's "staff" since he, and Capt. James W. Forsyth, who was
                                > assigned to Mansfield's staff by McClellan, were busy
                                > and not usually near the general. Gould, on pg. 21, quotes Dyer who
                                > wrote the following in 1891:
                                >
                                > "At the time the General was mortally wounded, I was not near him,
                                as
                                > he had given me an order to bring the command of General Crawford
                                to
                                > the front. It was halted somewhat to the rear and our left. When I
                                > returned, I found that the General was being removed to the rear,
                                but
                                > by the men of what regiment I do not know. I remained with him
                                until
                                > he died, which must have been about one o'clock P.M. on the
                                > 17th...Where the General fell was a little to our left of the woods-
                                -
                                > a cornfield was directly in front. I am very sure that the General
                                > was not killed by the men of the [Confederate] command in front of
                                > the Tenth Maine. I am positive as to this."
                                >
                                > Another book, "Texas & New Mexico on the Eve of the Civil War: The
                                > Mansfield & Johnston Inspections, 1859 - 1861," edited by Jerry
                                > Thompson, which has a good, albeit short, bio about Mansfield in
                                its
                                > concluding chapter, talks about Dyer leaving with Mansfield from DC
                                > on pg.198. He cites Mansfield Papers in the Middlesex (Conn)
                                > Historical Society. He also cites the statement of Capt. Clarence
                                H.
                                > Dyer, Oct. 10, 1862, USMA.
                                >
                                > It seems to me that Dyer was in fact with Mansfield from the time
                                he
                                > left DC to the time he died and then with Mansfield's son, to
                                > Connecticut with the body. Pls let me know if you need more info.
                                >
                                > Interestingly, Dyer as you see from his quote may be wrong on the
                                > time/date of death--Thompson has 8:10 am 18 September as does
                                Eicher;
                                > Boatner has him dying on the 17th, but Thompson is born out by
                                > Jerimiah Taylor re the departure from DC and his death "a few
                                minutes
                                > past eight o'clock." Dyer was at Mansfield's funeral and is
                                mentioned
                                > in Taylor's encomium.
                                >
                                > Larry F.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, 128thpa@ wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Larry:  Does Winslow cite a source for this?  Up until now, I
                                > couldn't confirm that Dyer was with Mansfield at Antietam.  I am
                                not
                                > saying he wasn't, I just couldn't find confirmation on this.  If
                                he
                                > was with Mansfield, I can't find any evidence that he was used by
                                > Mansfield at Antietam.  I could see why Mansfield was described
                                > as "fussy" by Williams. 
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Williams in a letter to his daughters writes: 
                                > >
                                > > “I had five new regiments without drill or discipline. (One of
                                > these was the 128th PA) General Mansfield was greatly
                                excited. . . .
                                >   Feeling that our heavy masses of raw troops were sadly exposed,
                                I
                                > begged him to let me deploy them in line of battle, in which the
                                men
                                > present by two ranks or rows instead of twenty, as we were
                                marching,
                                > but I could not move him.   He was positive that all the new
                                > regiments would run away.”  This from Williams' book, From the
                                > Cannon’s Mouth,p. 125
                                > >
                                > >  Paula
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > <<This is from "General John Sedgwick: The Story of a Union Corps
                                > > Commander," by Richard Elliot Winslow III: 
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > He left Washington on 13 September with another aide, Captain
                                > > Clarence Dyer, and a black body servant, and arrived at
                                McClellan's
                                > > headquarters in Middletown, Maryland, on the 15th. There, he was
                                > > quickly assigned to command of the 12th Corps after Sedgwick
                                > declined
                                > > and on the 16th was informed by General McClellan that he was to
                                > move
                                > > his corps to the Union right flank and support Hooker's 1st Corps
                                > in
                                > > an early morning attack on the next day, if needed. The general
                                who
                                > > had been temporarily in command of the 12th Corps, Brig. Gen.
                                > Alpheus
                                > > S. Williams, described Mansfield as "very fussy" having been "an
                                > > engineer officer and never before had commanded large bodies of
                                > > troops.">>
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                >
                              • 128thpa@comcast.net
                                Thank you for this Larry.  This is very helpful.  This has been something I have wanted to get more info on concerning my research on the 128th Pa.  As you
                                Message 15 of 30 , Feb 16, 2009
                                  Thank you for this Larry.  This is very helpful.  This has been something I have wanted to get more info on concerning my research on the 128th Pa.  As you know, there was a great deal of confusion that day, especially with the XII Corps, and even more so with the 128th. Their Colonel was killed almost immediately upon entering the battle, their Lt. Col was wounded and taken off the field.  Add the fact that they were green troops and super chaos is the only description of their time on the field.  I agree that McClellan should not have chosen Mansfield.  I have always felt that Williams was underestimated.



                                  Paula






                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Thomas Clemens
                                  How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a corps? Wasn t it an order and not an invitation? No promotion involved, he was already a Major
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
                                    How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion involved, he was already a Major General.







                                    Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                    Professor of History
                                    Hagerstown Community College
                                  • eighth_conn_inf
                                    Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of Mac s staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather than I absolutely
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
                                      Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of
                                      Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
                                      than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
                                      analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the AOP?

                                      My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army is at
                                      least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the command? I
                                      don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that this is
                                      not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle John
                                      talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.

                                      I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut Grove
                                      Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
                                      correct?
                                      Larry F.

                                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
                                      corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
                                      involved, he was already a Major General.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                      > Professor of History
                                      > Hagerstown Community College
                                      >
                                    • Harry Smeltzer
                                      Maybe it didn t happen as described. Maybe the narrator is imbuing himself with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut. Harry ... From:
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
                                        Maybe it didn't happen as described. Maybe the narrator is imbuing himself
                                        with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut.

                                        Harry



                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                        Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                        Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:43 PM
                                        To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps



                                        Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of
                                        Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
                                        than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
                                        analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the AOP?

                                        My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army is at
                                        least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the command? I
                                        don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that this is
                                        not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle John
                                        talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.

                                        I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut Grove
                                        Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
                                        correct?
                                        Larry F.

                                        --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                        yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
                                        corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
                                        involved, he was already a Major General.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                        > Professor of History
                                        > Hagerstown Community College
                                        >





                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Thomas Clemens
                                        Yes, more like Chesnut Grove and Harpers Ferry Rd intersection and then over to the Antietam iron Furnace and the village of Antietam at the mouth of the
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
                                          Yes, more like Chesnut Grove and Harpers Ferry Rd intersection and then over to the Antietam iron Furnace and the village of Antietam at the mouth of the creek. I am told by local hsitorians that the HF road from Sample's manor to Mills road did not exist and the cavalry followed Chesnut Grove to Mountain Lock Rd, or something like that.


                                          Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                          Professor of History
                                          Hagerstown Community College


                                          >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 02/17/09 2:43 PM >>>
                                          Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of
                                          Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
                                          than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
                                          analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the AOP?

                                          My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army is at
                                          least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the command? I
                                          don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that this is
                                          not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle John
                                          talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.

                                          I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut Grove
                                          Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
                                          correct?
                                          Larry F.

                                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
                                          corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
                                          involved, he was already a Major General.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                          > Professor of History
                                          > Hagerstown Community College
                                          >
                                        • Harry Smeltzer
                                          I read an interesting footnote in McDougall s Throes of Democracy - not a bad book on the period 1829-1877, though he has some major factual errors in the
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
                                            I read an interesting footnote in McDougall's "Throes of Democracy" - not a
                                            bad book on the period 1829-1877, though he has some major factual errors in
                                            the Civil War chapter.

                                            "The truth is Mary Boykin Miller Chesnut reinvented herself after Dixie's
                                            demise like a real-life Scarlett O'Hara. She was indeed the wife of a
                                            prominent Confederate politician, an eyewitness to many events, and an
                                            ardent secessionist. But the 800 page diary she claimed to have written
                                            during the war was in fact written (or expanded and rewritten) in the 1880s
                                            and carefully tailored to the prejudices of the (mostly Yankee) bookseller's
                                            market. It is easy to seem prophetic when you know all the outcomes in
                                            advance. Woodward might have deceived himself about Chesnut for didactic
                                            purposes, and the filmmaker Ken Burns for dramatic purposes, but Kenneth
                                            Lynn put l'affaire Chesnut to rest in The Air-Line to Seattle: Studies in
                                            Literary and Historical Writing about America (Chicago, Ill.: University of
                                            Chacago, 1983), p. 59: 'She wrote a novel about the South during the Civil
                                            War and called it a diary." Ergo, I shall not be quoting again from Mrs.
                                            Chesnut."

                                            It's not a bad book - it's sweeping, actually - but probably not
                                            self-loathing enough for many readers these days. I can't imagine someone
                                            like Zinn giving it two enthusiastic thumbs up.

                                            Harry





                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                            Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
                                            Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 4:21 PM
                                            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps



                                            Maybe it didn't happen as described. Maybe the narrator is imbuing himself
                                            with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut.

                                            Harry

                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                            [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            yahoogroups.com] On
                                            Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                            Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:43 PM
                                            To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps

                                            Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of
                                            Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
                                            than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
                                            analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the AOP?

                                            My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army is at
                                            least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the command? I
                                            don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that this is
                                            not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle John
                                            talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.

                                            I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut Grove
                                            Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
                                            correct?
                                            Larry F.

                                            --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                            yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                                            wrote:
                                            >
                                            > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
                                            corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
                                            involved, he was already a Major General.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                            > Professor of History
                                            > Hagerstown Community College
                                            >

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Thomas Clemens
                                            There is a written order, that as National Lampoon used to say is a true fact. Maybe the idea of refusing the honor is a viable process. But compareeto
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
                                              There is a written order, that as National Lampoon used to say is a "true fact." Maybe the idea of "refusing the honor" is a viable process. But compareeto Burnside, offered the command once or twice, refused it, then "ordered" to it in November. A very different situation.

                                              Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                              Professor of History
                                              Hagerstown Community College


                                              >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> 02/17/09 4:21 PM >>>
                                              Maybe it didn't happen as described. Maybe the narrator is imbuing himself
                                              with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut.

                                              Harry



                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                              Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                              Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:43 PM
                                              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps



                                              Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of
                                              Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
                                              than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
                                              analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the AOP?

                                              My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army is at
                                              least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the command? I
                                              don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that this is
                                              not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle John
                                              talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.

                                              I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut Grove
                                              Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
                                              correct?
                                              Larry F.

                                              --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                              yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                                              wrote:
                                              >
                                              > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
                                              corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
                                              involved, he was already a Major General.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                              > Professor of History
                                              > Hagerstown Community College
                                              >





                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • 128thpa@comcast.net
                                              I teach a class at a local college on Civilians during the Civil War - while I use an equal amount of northern and southern letters and diaries, I do not use
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
                                                I teach a class at a local college on Civilians during the Civil War - while I use an equal amount of northern and southern letters and diaries, I do not use Mary Chesnut.  Inevitably, I will be asked, why I don't use her diary or why don't I mention her.  To stop any further questions on her, I use this reasoning - I am trying to show you the every day person, those who led ordinary, common lives which were changed forever by either the war coming to them, or they going to help support the war.  Mary Chesnut, being the wife of a prominent politician, does not for me (whether true or false) convey that feeling.  She was a person of privilege and her opinions would not convey what the thinking of the every day person would be.



                                                Paula



                                                 




                                                I read an interesting footnote in McDougall's "Throes of Democracy" - not a
                                                bad book on the period 1829-1877, though he has some major factual errors in
                                                the Civil War chapter.

                                                "The truth is Mary Boykin Miller Chesnut reinvented herself after Dixie's
                                                demise like a real-life Scarlett O'Hara. She was indeed the wife of a
                                                prominent Confederate politician, an eyewitness to many events, and an
                                                ardent secessionist. But the 800 page diary she claimed to have written
                                                during the war was in fact written (or expanded and rewritten) in the 1880s
                                                and carefully tailored to the prejudices of the (mostly Yankee) bookseller's
                                                market. It is easy to seem prophetic when you know all the outcomes in
                                                advance. Woodward might have deceived himself about Chesnut for didactic
                                                purposes, and the filmmaker Ken Burns for dramatic purposes, but Kenneth
                                                Lynn put l'affaire Chesnut to rest in The Air-Line to Seattle: Studies in
                                                Literary and Historical Writing about America (Chicago, Ill.: University of
                                                Chacago, 1983), p. 59: 'She wrote a novel about the South during the Civil
                                                War and called it a diary." Ergo, I shall not be quoting again from Mrs.
                                                Chesnut."

                                                It's not a bad book - it's sweeping, actually - but probably not
                                                self-loathing enough for many readers these days. I can't imagine someone
                                                like Zinn giving it two enthusiastic thumbs up.

                                                Harry

                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com ] On
                                                Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
                                                Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 4:21 PM
                                                To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps

                                                Maybe it didn't happen as described. Maybe the narrator is imbuing himself
                                                with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut.

                                                Harry

                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                                [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                yahoogroups.com] On
                                                Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                                Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:43 PM
                                                To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps

                                                Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of
                                                Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
                                                than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
                                                analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the AOP?

                                                My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army is at
                                                least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the command? I
                                                don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that this is
                                                not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle John
                                                talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.

                                                I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut Grove
                                                Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
                                                correct?
                                                Larry F.

                                                --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                                                wrote:
                                                >
                                                > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
                                                corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
                                                involved, he was already a Major General.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                                > Professor of History
                                                > Hagerstown Community College
                                                >

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • G E Mayers
                                                Paula, Good point! Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one s mother s side, is an introduction
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
                                                  Paula,

                                                  Good point!

                                                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  From: <128thpa@...>
                                                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 5:52 PM
                                                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Sedgwick and the 12th Corps




                                                  I teach a class at a local college on Civilians during the Civil
                                                  War - while I use an equal amount of northern and southern
                                                  letters and diaries, I do not use Mary Chesnut. Inevitably, I
                                                  will be asked, why I don't use her diary or why don't I mention
                                                  her. To stop any further questions on her, I use this reasoning -
                                                  I am trying to show you the every day person, those who led
                                                  ordinary, common lives which were changed forever by either the
                                                  war coming to them, or they going to help support the war. Mary
                                                  Chesnut, being the wife of a prominent politician, does not for
                                                  me (whether true or false) convey that feeling. She was a person
                                                  of privilege and her opinions would not convey what the thinking
                                                  of the every day person would be.



                                                  Paula








                                                  I read an interesting footnote in McDougall's "Throes of
                                                  Democracy" - not a
                                                  bad book on the period 1829-1877, though he has some major
                                                  factual errors in
                                                  the Civil War chapter.

                                                  "The truth is Mary Boykin Miller Chesnut reinvented herself after
                                                  Dixie's
                                                  demise like a real-life Scarlett O'Hara. She was indeed the wife
                                                  of a
                                                  prominent Confederate politician, an eyewitness to many events,
                                                  and an
                                                  ardent secessionist. But the 800 page diary she claimed to have
                                                  written
                                                  during the war was in fact written (or expanded and rewritten) in
                                                  the 1880s
                                                  and carefully tailored to the prejudices of the (mostly Yankee)
                                                  bookseller's
                                                  market. It is easy to seem prophetic when you know all the
                                                  outcomes in
                                                  advance. Woodward might have deceived himself about Chesnut for
                                                  didactic
                                                  purposes, and the filmmaker Ken Burns for dramatic purposes, but
                                                  Kenneth
                                                  Lynn put l'affaire Chesnut to rest in The Air-Line to Seattle:
                                                  Studies in
                                                  Literary and Historical Writing about America (Chicago, Ill.:
                                                  University of
                                                  Chacago, 1983), p. 59: 'She wrote a novel about the South during
                                                  the Civil
                                                  War and called it a diary." Ergo, I shall not be quoting again
                                                  from Mrs.
                                                  Chesnut."

                                                  It's not a bad book - it's sweeping, actually - but probably not
                                                  self-loathing enough for many readers these days. I can't imagine
                                                  someone
                                                  like Zinn giving it two enthusiastic thumbs up.

                                                  Harry

                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
                                                  TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com ] On
                                                  Behalf Of Harry Smeltzer
                                                  Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 4:21 PM
                                                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps

                                                  Maybe it didn't happen as described. Maybe the narrator is
                                                  imbuing himself
                                                  with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut.

                                                  Harry

                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                  yahoogroups.com
                                                  [mailto:TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                  yahoogroups.com] On
                                                  Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                                  Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:43 PM
                                                  To: TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                  yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps

                                                  Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one
                                                  of
                                                  Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
                                                  than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
                                                  analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the
                                                  AOP?

                                                  My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army
                                                  is at
                                                  least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the
                                                  command? I
                                                  don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that
                                                  this is
                                                  not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle
                                                  John
                                                  talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.

                                                  I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut
                                                  Grove
                                                  Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
                                                  correct?
                                                  Larry F.

                                                  --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                  yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                                                  wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
                                                  corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
                                                  involved, he was already a Major General.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                                  > Professor of History
                                                  > Hagerstown Community College
                                                  >

                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • eighth_conn_inf
                                                  Since we have the two orders, one on the 13th for Sedgwick and then one on the 15th appointing Mansfield, and nothing else, it makes it difficult to understand
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
                                                    Since we have the two orders, one on the 13th for Sedgwick and then
                                                    one on the 15th appointing Mansfield, and nothing else, it makes it
                                                    difficult to understand what transpired between McClellan and
                                                    Sedgwick. Since the only primary source is Gibbon's recollections,
                                                    and what he says makes sense, perhaps we are stuck with it.

                                                    I will buy his book to see if his "recollections" are as embellished
                                                    as many such as H. K. Douglas's and J. L. Chamberlain's. Evaluation
                                                    of primary sources can be interesting. I see that David Eicher calls
                                                    Gibbon's recollections "superb" and an "important memoir"
                                                    which "contributes lasting value about the war in the East. The
                                                    accounts relating to Second Bull Run, Antietam, ...are particularly
                                                    appealing." p. 167. Nevins calls it "Reliable, straightforward...."
                                                    p. 93, vol. I.

                                                    Larry F.

                                                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                                                    wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > There is a written order, that as National Lampoon used to say is
                                                    a "true fact." Maybe the idea of "refusing the honor" is a viable
                                                    process. But compareeto Burnside, offered the command once or twice,
                                                    refused it, then "ordered" to it in November. A very different
                                                    situation.
                                                    >
                                                    > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                                    > Professor of History
                                                    > Hagerstown Community College
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> 02/17/09 4:21 PM >>>
                                                    > Maybe it didn't happen as described. Maybe the narrator is imbuing
                                                    himself
                                                    > with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut.
                                                    >
                                                    > Harry
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                                    > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                    [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                    > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                                    > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:43 PM
                                                    > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of
                                                    > Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
                                                    > than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
                                                    > analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the
                                                    AOP?
                                                    >
                                                    > My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army is
                                                    at
                                                    > least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the
                                                    command? I
                                                    > don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that this
                                                    is
                                                    > not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle John
                                                    > talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.
                                                    >
                                                    > I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut
                                                    Grove
                                                    > Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
                                                    > correct?
                                                    > Larry F.
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                                                    > wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
                                                    > corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
                                                    > involved, he was already a Major General.
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                                    > > Professor of History
                                                    > > Hagerstown Community College
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    >
                                                  • G E Mayers
                                                    Larry; Sounds to me that at least two authors found the memoir to be without much Victorian hyperbole! Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian,
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
                                                      Larry;

                                                      Sounds to me that at least two authors found the memoir to be
                                                      without much Victorian hyperbole!

                                                      Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                      G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                                      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                                      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                                      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                                      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                      From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                                                      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                                      Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 8:02 PM
                                                      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps


                                                      Since we have the two orders, one on the 13th for Sedgwick and
                                                      then
                                                      one on the 15th appointing Mansfield, and nothing else, it makes
                                                      it
                                                      difficult to understand what transpired between McClellan and
                                                      Sedgwick. Since the only primary source is Gibbon's
                                                      recollections,
                                                      and what he says makes sense, perhaps we are stuck with it.

                                                      I will buy his book to see if his "recollections" are as
                                                      embellished
                                                      as many such as H. K. Douglas's and J. L. Chamberlain's.
                                                      Evaluation
                                                      of primary sources can be interesting. I see that David Eicher
                                                      calls
                                                      Gibbon's recollections "superb" and an "important memoir"
                                                      which "contributes lasting value about the war in the East. The
                                                      accounts relating to Second Bull Run, Antietam, ...are
                                                      particularly
                                                      appealing." p. 167. Nevins calls it "Reliable,
                                                      straightforward...."
                                                      p. 93, vol. I.

                                                      Larry F.

                                                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                                      <clemenst@...>
                                                      wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > There is a written order, that as National Lampoon used to say
                                                      > is
                                                      a "true fact." Maybe the idea of "refusing the honor" is a
                                                      viable
                                                      process. But compareeto Burnside, offered the command once or
                                                      twice,
                                                      refused it, then "ordered" to it in November. A very different
                                                      situation.
                                                      >
                                                      > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                                      > Professor of History
                                                      > Hagerstown Community College
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > >>> "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> 02/17/09 4:21 PM >>>
                                                      > Maybe it didn't happen as described. Maybe the narrator is
                                                      > imbuing
                                                      himself
                                                      > with a prescience he did not possess, a la Mary Chesnut.
                                                      >
                                                      > Harry
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                                      > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                      [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                      > Behalf Of eighth_conn_inf
                                                      > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 2:43 PM
                                                      > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Sedgwick and the 12th Corps
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or
                                                      > one of
                                                      > Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command
                                                      > rather
                                                      > than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
                                                      > analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of
                                                      > the
                                                      AOP?
                                                      >
                                                      > My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or
                                                      > army is
                                                      at
                                                      > least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the
                                                      command? I
                                                      > don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that
                                                      > this
                                                      is
                                                      > not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle
                                                      > John
                                                      > talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.
                                                      >
                                                      > I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of
                                                      > Chestnut
                                                      Grove
                                                      > Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is
                                                      > that
                                                      > correct?
                                                      > Larry F.
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                      > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                                                      > wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of
                                                      > > a
                                                      > corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
                                                      > involved, he was already a Major General.
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                                      > > Professor of History
                                                      > > Hagerstown Community College
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      >
                                                    • eighth_conn_inf
                                                      Harry, Eicher also mentions Woodward s research about when the diary was written and how it was embellished but still recommends it. He then notes that there
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
                                                        Harry,

                                                        Eicher also mentions Woodward's research about when the diary was
                                                        written and how it was embellished but still recommends it. He then
                                                        notes that there is a "true" diary which gives the exact text of her
                                                        original diaries written during the war: "The Private Mary Chestnut:
                                                        The Unpublished Civil War Diaries" ed by C. Vann Woodward and
                                                        Elisabeth Muhlenfeld. Has anyone read this?

                                                        Larry F.


                                                        In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > I read an interesting footnote in McDougall's "Throes of
                                                        Democracy" - not a
                                                        > bad book on the period 1829-1877, though he has some major factual
                                                        errors in
                                                        > the Civil War chapter.
                                                        >
                                                        > "The truth is Mary Boykin Miller Chesnut reinvented herself after
                                                        Dixie's
                                                        > demise like a real-life Scarlett O'Hara. She was indeed the wife
                                                        of a
                                                        > prominent Confederate politician, an eyewitness to many events, and
                                                        an
                                                        > ardent secessionist. But the 800 page diary she claimed to have
                                                        written
                                                        > during the war was in fact written (or expanded and rewritten) in
                                                        the 1880s
                                                        > and carefully tailored to the prejudices of the (mostly Yankee)
                                                        bookseller's
                                                        > market. It is easy to seem prophetic when you know all the
                                                        outcomes in
                                                        > advance. Woodward might have deceived himself about Chesnut for
                                                        didactic
                                                        > purposes, and the filmmaker Ken Burns for dramatic purposes, but
                                                        Kenneth
                                                        > Lynn put l'affaire Chesnut to rest in The Air-Line to Seattle:
                                                        Studies in
                                                        > Literary and Historical Writing about America (Chicago, Ill.:
                                                        University of
                                                        > Chacago, 1983), p. 59: 'She wrote a novel about the South during
                                                        the Civil
                                                        > War and called it a diary." Ergo, I shall not be quoting again
                                                        from Mrs.
                                                        > Chesnut."
                                                        >
                                                        > It's not a bad book - it's sweeping, actually - but probably not
                                                        > self-loathing enough for many readers these days. I can't imagine
                                                        someone
                                                        > like Zinn giving it two enthusiastic thumbs up.
                                                        >
                                                        > Harry
                                                        >
                                                      • 128thpa@comcast.net
                                                        Thanks Gerry! Paula ... From: G E Mayers To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:36:54 PM GMT -05:00
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Feb 17, 2009
                                                          Thanks Gerry!

                                                          Paula
                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                          From: "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                                                          To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 7:36:54 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
                                                          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Sedgwick and the 12th Corps






                                                          Paula,

                                                          Good point!

                                                          Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                                          G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                                          >



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                                                        • eighth_conn_inf
                                                          Thanks Tom, This helps flesh out my Escape from Harpers Ferry chapter re the Jeff Davis Legion. Knowing period roads helps understand whether or not what the
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Feb 18, 2009
                                                            Thanks Tom,

                                                            This helps flesh out my "Escape from Harpers Ferry" chapter re the
                                                            Jeff Davis Legion. Knowing period roads helps understand whether or
                                                            not what the sources say is plausible.

                                                            Larry

                                                            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                                                            wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > Yes, more like Chesnut Grove and Harpers Ferry Rd intersection and
                                                            then over to the Antietam iron Furnace and the village of Antietam at
                                                            the mouth of the creek. I am told by local historians that the HF
                                                            road from Sample's manor to Mills road did not exist and the cavalry
                                                            followed Chesnut Grove to Mountain Lock Rd, or something like that.
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                                            > Professor of History
                                                            > Hagerstown Community College
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 02/17/09 2:43 PM >>>
                                                            > Maybe Sedgwick in a personal conversation with Little Mac or one of
                                                            > Mac's staff said that he would prefer not to take command rather
                                                            > than "I absolutely refuse." Perhaps this situation is somewhat
                                                            > analogous to Burnside refusing three times to take command of the
                                                            AOP?
                                                            >
                                                            > My guess is that an assignment to the command of a corps or army is
                                                            at
                                                            > least unofficially contingent on the appointee accepting the
                                                            command? I
                                                            > don't have the army regs but maybe among fellow WPointers that this
                                                            is
                                                            > not unusual. I haven't found anything written by Mac or Uncle John
                                                            > talking about the refusal so Mac was not upset.
                                                            >
                                                            > I see that Solomon's Gap may be near the intersection of Chestnut
                                                            Grove
                                                            > Rd and Trego or Millbrook Rds just south of Mount Briar--is that
                                                            > correct?
                                                            > Larry F.
                                                            >
                                                            > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                                                            > wrote:
                                                            > >
                                                            > > How does Sedgwick disobey a written order to take command of a
                                                            > corps? Wasn't it an order and not an invitation? No promotion
                                                            > involved, he was already a Major General.
                                                            > >
                                                            > >
                                                            > >
                                                            > >
                                                            > >
                                                            > >
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                                            > > Professor of History
                                                            > > Hagerstown Community College
                                                            > >
                                                            >
                                                          • Teej Smith
                                                            Larry wrote: Since we have the two orders, one on the 13th for Sedgwick and then one on the 15th appointing Mansfield, and nothing else, it makes it difficult
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Feb 18, 2009
                                                              Larry wrote:

                                                              Since we have the two orders, one on the 13th for Sedgwick and then
                                                              one on the 15th appointing Mansfield, and nothing else, it makes it
                                                              difficult to understand what transpired between McClellan and
                                                              Sedgwick. Since the only primary source is Gibbon's recollections,
                                                              and what he says makes sense, perhaps we are stuck with it.

                                                              Sorry for joining the discussion so late. If someone has already mentioned this, my apologies. There is a very short biography of Sedgwick written in 1982 by Richard Elliott Winslow III. Winslow wrote that Sedgwick was at "Farm Willow Grove" when he received the orders directing him to take command of 12th Corps. He quotes from the orders citing the ORs and then wrote, "It was a most tempting assignment if one desired rapid promotion. But Sedgwick declined the command, as he 'felt he could do better service with the troops which he knew and which knew him;' The cite for this brief quote is a manuscript written by one of Sedgwick's aides, Capt. Charles Albert Whittier. Whittier's manuscript is titled, "Reminiscences of the War, 1861-1865 or Egotistic Memoirs, C.A.W. Feb. 13, 1888. At the writing of the biography a typescript of the manuscript could be found at Boston Public Library, Boston, Mass.

                                                              Regards,
                                                              Teej




                                                              .



                                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                            • eighth_conn_inf
                                                              Thanks Teej, I have Winslow and use it extensively for Sedgwick info. I was hoping to find something written by McClellan or Sedgwick about this but Gibbon s
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Feb 18, 2009
                                                                Thanks Teej,

                                                                I have Winslow and use it extensively for Sedgwick info. I was hoping
                                                                to find something written by McClellan or Sedgwick about this but
                                                                Gibbon's and Whittier's quotes which basically agree with each other
                                                                are better than nothing. I've found nothing in the OR's about this
                                                                other than the two assignments for Sedgwick and Mansfield--still
                                                                looking.

                                                                Larry

                                                                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Teej Smith" <teej@...> wrote:
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                > Larry wrote:
                                                                >
                                                                > Since we have the two orders, one on the 13th for Sedgwick and
                                                                then
                                                                > one on the 15th appointing Mansfield, and nothing else, it makes
                                                                it
                                                                > difficult to understand what transpired between McClellan and
                                                                > Sedgwick. Since the only primary source is Gibbon's
                                                                recollections,
                                                                > and what he says makes sense, perhaps we are stuck with it.
                                                                >
                                                                > Sorry for joining the discussion so late. If someone has
                                                                already mentioned this, my apologies. There is a very short
                                                                biography of Sedgwick written in 1982 by Richard Elliott Winslow
                                                                III. Winslow wrote that Sedgwick was at "Farm Willow Grove" when he
                                                                received the orders directing him to take command of 12th Corps. He
                                                                quotes from the orders citing the ORs and then wrote, "It was a most
                                                                tempting assignment if one desired rapid promotion. But Sedgwick
                                                                declined the command, as he 'felt he could do better service with the
                                                                troops which he knew and which knew him;' The cite for this brief
                                                                quote is a manuscript written by one of Sedgwick's aides, Capt.
                                                                Charles Albert Whittier. Whittier's manuscript is
                                                                titled, "Reminiscences of the War, 1861-1865 or Egotistic Memoirs,
                                                                C.A.W. Feb. 13, 1888. At the writing of the biography a typescript of
                                                                the manuscript could be found at Boston Public Library, Boston, Mass.
                                                                >
                                                                > Regards,
                                                                > Teej
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                > .
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                                >
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