Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Orbats at Antietam
- Dear Tom C,
Am in agreement here with you. Nothing I have read or seen
indicates remotely that D H Hill was nothing more than a
I too would like to see quoted documents from the ORs or other
sources to back up what Bryn is supposing or suggesting.
Yr. Obt. Svt.
G E "Gerry" Mayers
To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
the Almighty God. --Anonymous
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Orbats at Antietam
As someone who worked very closely with Joe Harsh, (read the
acknowledgements), I am very familiar with his ideas about D.H.
Hill's status during the campaign. There is no doubt that as
senior officer he commanded the column coming up from Richmond.
As Joe used to phrase it, he saw Lee as "auditioning" Hill for a
wing command during the campaign and evidently found him wanting
because he did not act upon in October when he asked Congress for
the 2 wings. He never assigned anyone else to report to Hill for
anything other than perhaps a minor tactical assignment, and in
fact Hill operated under Jackson in the early days of the
campaign. How can he do that and be a wing commander, either de
jure or de facto? Joe never calls Hill a wing commander during
the battle and idea of Hill "in command" of the center is
unprovable. Longstreet is there too, remember the Richardson's
battery story? So how is Hill in command with Longstreet right
there? In fact Hill HQ was at the Piper house asd while it is
not as solid, there is suggestion Longstreet's HQ was there too.
Or at least Longstreet was there for a time.
As for Burnside becoming a "wing commander" again on the 15 by
placing Sykes, that again is a supposition. McClellan never
ordered it, and Sykes' corps commander was near by, oobviating
the necessity of subordinating him to anyone else.
If you want to "prove" these points start citing some documents,
orders from the ORs, something solid. Supposition and conjecture
are not proof.
Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
Professor of History
Hagerstown Community College
>>> "Bryn Monnery" <littlegreenmen.geo@...> 02/06/09 4:22
>>> AM >>>
The 3 wings are a known, and have been since Joseph Harsh
"Confederate Tide Rising" about a decade ago. The 3rd wing was
Magruder's old Army of the Peninsula.
McLaws was admonished on the 17th by Lee for accepting an order
Jackson, using his status as 2nd Major General, Lee making it
that Jackson did not have the authority to command McLaws unless
said so (although perhaps there is an air of Lee's frustration at
McLaws and Jackson in this). It is in this environment that DH
issues orders directly to McLaws' brigadiers.
Such actions were only legal and binding if DH Hill was in the
of command between Lee and McLaws. Simply being a more senior Maj
doesn't cut it.
- Jackson has some real problems as a tactical commander, and he keeps making
the same mistakes, which suggests that he wasn't very introspective about
developing those skills. None of his battles really display a flair for tactics,
even Chancellorsville, where his choices of divisions in line instead of
column greatly complicated his own attack.
That said, he was quite effective at what we today would call the
In a message dated 2/11/2009 3:21:43 P.M. Central Standard Time,
Gary Echelbarger is also a great source on the Valley Campaign of
1862. Mildly said, Jackson got very lucky in the Valley in 1862..
the only Federal commander to beat him, and do so pretty soundly,
was James Shields. (Even there, actual field commander was Nathan
Kimball.) That said, Jackson had, after Shields, mediocre Federal
commanders to contend with....
Yr. Obt. Svt.
G E "Gerry" Mayers
**************Nothing says I love you like flowers! Find a florist near you
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