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Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Orbats at Antietam

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  • G E Mayers
    Bryn, To which brigadiers in McLaws division does D H Hill issue orders on September 17th? D H Hill NEVER was a wing commander as Tom Clemens pointed out. He
    Message 1 of 68 , Feb 6, 2009
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      To which brigadiers in McLaws' division does D H Hill issue
      orders on September 17th?

      D H Hill NEVER was a wing commander as Tom Clemens pointed out.
      He was the main commander of the "relief column" that marches
      north from Gordonsville in mid August to try to reach the ANVa in
      time for the battle at Manassas Plains (2nd Bull Run or 2nd
      Manassas). However, once he does reach the ANVA and the entire
      army concentrates between Leesburg and Dranesville following the
      failed pursuit of Pope's fleeing columns, D H Hill becomes simply
      a division commander. In fact, as Harsh points out, 05 per cent
      of Hill's division is the advance elements of the ANVa into
      Maryland in early September; once Jackson crosses into Maryland,
      D H Hill becomes subject to Jackson's orders.

      IF D H Hill was a third wing commander, why would he have had to
      take orders from Jackson rather than directly from Lee (which
      Jackson and Longstreet did do?)?

      There is strong evidence, as per Harsh's Taken at the Flood, that
      Hill operates for most of the Maryland Campaign, and especially
      during the battle of Sharpsburg, as an independent division
      command, specifically subject to orders from Lee. Even though
      Harsh does not directly say it (as far as I recall and will need
      to potentially verify this in TATF), I do believe that at
      Sharpsburg there was an informal sharing of command authorities
      between Longstreet and Jackson with either being able to call
      upon and secure assistance from Army General HQ for more men or
      to call upon nearby brigades for assistance.

      Remember, after Jackson has his own divisions fought out to a
      frazzle by 8 am on the morning of September 17th (including the
      famed Cornfield charge by the Texans), he asks his brother in law
      D H Hill for help and Hill dispatches three of his five
      brigades -- about 60 percent of his total divisional force
      available -- from the Confederate center.

      Bryn, I suspect you have a particular agenda you are trying to
      prove here. Why not just spell it out directly?

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Bryn Monnery" <littlegreenmen.geo@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 4:22 AM
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Orbats at Antietam

      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
      > The idea of the ANV at Antietam divided into three wings with
      > senior
      commanders is unfounded and unprovable. No doubt D.H. Hill
      his seniority to issue orders to other commanders, but it is a
      to confuse that with creating "wings." McLaws and Anderson
      just at dawn and were placed and ordered into the batle directly
      Lee. There is no extant order placing D.H. Hill in authority
      either of these two commanders. Lee's Order of Battle, and I
      admit it took me a while to figure out that is what you mean by
      "orbat," was a very fluid and loose structure. Attempts to prove
      otherwise will, I fear, prove futile. Also I'd beware of
      imposing a
      modern conception of tight command structures upon an era of poor
      communication and loose battlefield control. My contention is
      the structure was deliberately vague, and senior commanders,
      any presumed structure, exercised a fair amount of control over
      troops in their immediate tactical area.
      > My two cents worth.

      The 3 wings are a known, and have been since Joseph Harsh
      "Confederate Tide Rising" about a decade ago. The 3rd wing was
      Magruder's old Army of the Peninsula.

      McLaws was admonished on the 17th by Lee for accepting an order
      Jackson, using his status as 2nd Major General, Lee making it
      that Jackson did not have the authority to command McLaws unless
      said so (although perhaps there is an air of Lee's frustration at
      McLaws and Jackson in this). It is in this environment that DH
      issues orders directly to McLaws' brigadiers.

      Such actions were only legal and binding if DH Hill was in the
      of command between Lee and McLaws. Simply being a more senior Maj
      doesn't cut it.
    • DPowell334@AOL.COM
      Jackson has some real problems as a tactical commander, and he keeps making the same mistakes, which suggests that he wasn t very introspective about
      Message 68 of 68 , Feb 12, 2009
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        Jackson has some real problems as a tactical commander, and he keeps making
        the same mistakes, which suggests that he wasn't very introspective about
        developing those skills. None of his battles really display a flair for tactics,
        even Chancellorsville, where his choices of divisions in line instead of
        column greatly complicated his own attack.

        That said, he was quite effective at what we today would call the
        operational art.

        Dave Powell

        In a message dated 2/11/2009 3:21:43 P.M. Central Standard Time,
        gerry1952@... writes:

        Gary Echelbarger is also a great source on the Valley Campaign of
        1862. Mildly said, Jackson got very lucky in the Valley in 1862..
        the only Federal commander to beat him, and do so pretty soundly,
        was James Shields. (Even there, actual field commander was Nathan
        Kimball.) That said, Jackson had, after Shields, mediocre Federal
        commanders to contend with....

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        **************Nothing says I love you like flowers! Find a florist near you
        now. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=florist&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000001)

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