Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Orbats at Antietam
- Dear Tom,
What you write here makes sense to me and I am in agreement,
based on all my years of research and reading here.
Yr. Obt. Svt.
G E "Gerry" Mayers
To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
the Almighty God. --Anonymous
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Orbats at Antietam
The idea of the ANV at Antietam divided into three wings with
senior commanders is unfounded and unprovable. No doubt D.H.
Hill exercised his seniority to issue orders to other commanders,
but it is a mistake to confuse that with creating "wings."
McLaws and Anderson arrived just at dawn and were placed and
ordered into the batle directly by Lee. There is no extant order
placing D.H. Hill in authority over either of these two
commanders. Lee's Order of Battle, and I must admit it took me a
while to figure out that is what you mean by "orbat," was a very
fluid and loose structure. Attempts to prove otherwise will, I
fear, prove futile. Also I'd beware of imposing a modern
conception of tight command structures upon an era of poor
communication and loose battlefield control. My contention is
that the structure was deliberately vague, and senior commanders,
despite any presumed structure, exercised a fair amount of
control over any troops in their immediate tactical area.
My two cents worth.
Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
Professor of History
Hagerstown Community College
>>> "Bryn Monnery" <littlegreenmen.geo@...> 02/05/09 5:49
>>> AM >>>
I recently tried to edit Wikipedia to reflect the new research.
Suffice to say it lasted about an hour. My current focus is to
determine just how real the Centre Wing was; DH Hill giving
directly to McLaws' brigadiers is indicative that he was wing
commander on the day.
I think once I've got sufficient references I'm going to try and
a "corrected" orbat online. I've rough estimates of regimental
strengths, but I haven't found anything really definitive there.
Any thoughts on Burnside still being a Wing Commander and why the
of him stubbornly refusing to yield the position came about? This
the next thing I intend to research...
--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
> Good thoughts and good points. One of the most common errors in
> much of the writings of this campaign is to attribute the OOB
> the ANVa of early October 1862 following the reorganization
> to the situation of affairs at Sharpsburg.
> I have all three of Joe Harsh's books and I think he makes
> good arguments about how fluid the organizational structure
> actually was on 17 September.
> Yr. Obt. Svt.
> G E "Gerry" Mayers
> To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
> on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
> Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
> the Almighty God. --Anonymous
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bryn Monnery" <littlegreenmen.geo@...>
> To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 9:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] The Orbats at Antietam
> You're correct of course.
> DH Hill's "Centre Wing" was a bit of a cypher, the divisions
> operating separately by the provisions of SO191. McLaws'
> had been formed into a 4th wing by the addition of Longstreet's
> Division (RH Anderson) and another small division from
> Longstreet's wing (which was originally part of Longstreet's
> Division and simply returned to it), and Walker was operating
> Thus all that was on the field at Antietam before Jackson comes
> in is Longstreet's command with 2 divisions (DR Jones and Hood)
> and Walton's artillery and DH Hill's command with his own
> division and 3 Bns of arty reserve.
> Longstreet posts Hood on the left, with SD Lee's arty, Jones on
> the right, with Walton, and DH Hill in the centre with the
> remaining two Bns.
> When Jackson comes in, he is assigned to take the left wing
> traditional position as 2nd Maj Gen). Hood doesn't reunite with
> Longstreet, but instead retires slightly (replaced by Ewell's
> division) and allows his men to cook for the first time that
> I have no idea whether Hood was supposed to return to
> or not, but he certainly fights under Jackson's aegis the next
> McLaws' 4th Wing arrives very early on the 17th, and is held by
> Lee behind Sharpsburg as a reserve. They are forwarded to
> (McLaws') and DH Hill (Longstreet's) later. I have just
> the reports of McLaws' brigadiers and it does seem
> (http://www.civilwarhome.com/macraeantietam.htm ) that McLaws'
> was indeed still under DH Hill....
> Walker's encounters Longstreet initially and Longstreet grabs
> to replace Hood's, but Lee orders Walker north later, but
> Walker's report shows he was still receiving orders from
> Longstreet later in the battle (specifically to shift to
> reinforce DH Hill).
> Thus it now seems that only three divisions had the "wrong
> in command, Walker (Longstreet, not Hill), Hood (Jackson, not
> Longstreet) and AP Hill (Longstreet, not Jackson).
> My thoughts have been that the idea of a fluid command
> is in part due to DH Hill being a "Corps Commander" has only
> reintroduced ca 10 years ago (Harsh's trilogy), and people have
> been trying to interpret actions assuming the 7th October
> --- On Wed, 4/2/09, G E Mayers <gerry1952@...> wrote:
> > From: G E Mayers <gerry1952@...>
> > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] The Orbats at Antietam
> > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Wednesday, 4 February, 2009, 12:30 PM
> > Dear Bryn;
> > Interesting but not really reflecting the extremely fluid
> > nature
> > of the Confederate forces that fought at Sharpsburg.
> > IIRC by the time McLaws' division arrives on field and
> > is thrown
> > into the fight, Jackson is pretty much out of action. While
> > the
> > West Woods area is technically "his"
> > responsibility, again IIRC,
> > it is R E Lee who orders McLaws to move to the West Words
> > area
> > where Sedgwick is making his attach, not Jackson.
> > Yr. Obt. Svt.
> > G E "Gerry" Mayers
> > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
> > even
> > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any
> > state in the
> > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
> > from
> > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bryn Monnery"
> > <littlegreenmen.geo@...>
> > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 5:42 AM
> > Subject: [TalkAntietam] The Orbats at Antietam
> > Hi,
> > While doing some research on Antietam I've found that
> > the
> > commonly
> > accepted orbats seem wrong, based on the orbats implemented
> > a
> > week
> > later (Confederate, see Harsh) or a week earlier (Union,
> > comfirmed
> > from McClellans Report to the Secretary of War).
> > Thus the organisations of the two armies at Antietam seem
> > to be:
> > Confederate
> > Right Wing (Longstreet)
> > DR Jones' Division
> > Walker's Division (at the beginning, later attached to
> > Jackson)
> > Walton's Arty Bn
> > Robertson's Cavalry Brigade
> > Centre Wing (DH Hill)
> > DH Hill's Division
> > Longstreet's Division (RH Anderson)
> > Cutt's Arty Bn
> > HP Jones' Arty Bn
> > Left Wing (Jackson)
> > Jackson's Division
> > Ewell's Division
> > Hood's Division (attached from Longstreet)
> > McLaws' Division (attached from DH Hill)
> > SD Lee's Arty Bn
> > Stuart with Fitz Lee's Brigade (the corps brigade) and
> > Hampton's
> > (DH
> > Hill's Corps brigade, attached)
> > AP Hill is still en route
> > Union
> > Right Wing (Burnside): 9th Corps and 5th Corps (only
> > Sykes'
> > Division
> > initially, Morell's arrives later), Artillery Reserve
> > is
> > attached.
> > Centre Wing (Franklin): 6th Corps (arrives very late in the
> > day)
> > and
> > 4th Corps (only one division, absent masking Harper's
> > Ferry)
> > Left Wing (Sumner): 1st, 2nd and 12th Corps, and Cavalry
> > Division
> > NB: The Wing structure *is* still in use at Antietam.
> > Any thoughts?
> > Bryn
> > ------------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
- Jackson has some real problems as a tactical commander, and he keeps making
the same mistakes, which suggests that he wasn't very introspective about
developing those skills. None of his battles really display a flair for tactics,
even Chancellorsville, where his choices of divisions in line instead of
column greatly complicated his own attack.
That said, he was quite effective at what we today would call the
In a message dated 2/11/2009 3:21:43 P.M. Central Standard Time,
Gary Echelbarger is also a great source on the Valley Campaign of
1862. Mildly said, Jackson got very lucky in the Valley in 1862..
the only Federal commander to beat him, and do so pretty soundly,
was James Shields. (Even there, actual field commander was Nathan
Kimball.) That said, Jackson had, after Shields, mediocre Federal
commanders to contend with....
Yr. Obt. Svt.
G E "Gerry" Mayers
**************Nothing says I love you like flowers! Find a florist near you
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