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Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Orbats at Antietam

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  • G E Mayers
    Bryn; Whose of McLaws brigadiers was D H Hill giving orders to? That is news to me! Longstreet kept Anderson s division (R H Anderson), according to Harsh,
    Message 1 of 68 , Feb 5, 2009
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      Bryn;

      Whose of McLaws' brigadiers was D H Hill giving orders to? That
      is news to me! Longstreet kept Anderson's division (R H
      Anderson), according to Harsh, once McLaws and Anderson rejoined
      the army after Harpers' Ferry/on the morning of September 17 as
      his own divisional reserve. McLaws became in effect an army
      reserve and taking orders directly from Lee.

      I think you are not recognizing the extremely fluid and ignoring
      of the normal organizational structure the CS fight at Antietam
      truly was. Units of the ANVa were typically fought at least two
      times during the day and some even more.

      There is a story of a "stragglers brigade" organized/gathered by
      Lee's orders (I do not recall off the top of my head who
      commanded, but it might have been John Bell Hood) at one point
      during the battle when it looked as if the Federals would try
      another assault on the Dunkard Church area. This could have been
      in the early afternoon. The important point about this is that
      the members of this "straggler's brigade" were men who had been
      knocked out of their respective units due to the ferocity of the
      fighting on that day...meaning they were for the most part under
      command of a leader they normally did not fight under.

      I would suggest you seriously consider reading Joseph Harsh's
      "Taken at the Flood: Robert E. Lee and Confederate Strategy
      during the Maryland Campaign of 1862". It is a very good
      treatment of what Lee did through out the campaign, including the
      battle, based on what he knew at the time, etc.

      I think you are wasting your time trying to "construct" an OOB
      for September 17th. Ezra Carman, IIRC, pretty much did the same
      thing as you are attempting to do in his manuscript on the
      Maryland Campaign which recently was published by Joseph Pierro.

      During the Federal "pursuit" of the ANVa from Washington City,
      McClellan put Burnside in charge of the First and Ninth Corps of
      the army. At South Mountain (Fox's and Turner's Gaps), Burnside
      is still very much a wing commander. At Sharpsburg, Mac takes
      Hooker with the First Corps pretty much out of Burnside's
      control...without telling Burnside the wing structure is being
      abandoned for the purpose of the battle (I do not think he told
      any of his wing or corps commanders the wing structure was
      discontinued as far as I can tell). This upsets Burnside very
      much and he continues, with the absence of orders to the contrary
      from Federal Army HQ, to think of himself as a wing commander.
      Therefore, when orders from Army HQ come to him for the Ninth
      Corps, he hands the orders to Jacob Cox who succeeded Jesse Reno
      as corps commander after the latter's mortal wounding on
      September 14t at Fox's Gap. This two layer system of handling of
      orders is part of the reason why the Federal attacks on the Lower
      Bridge are so bungled, etc. The Confederate defense is another.

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Bryn Monnery" <littlegreenmen.geo@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 5:49 AM
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: The Orbats at Antietam


      I recently tried to edit Wikipedia to reflect the new research.
      Suffice to say it lasted about an hour. My current focus is to
      try and
      determine just how real the Centre Wing was; DH Hill giving
      orders
      directly to McLaws' brigadiers is indicative that he was wing
      commander on the day.

      I think once I've got sufficient references I'm going to try and
      place
      a "corrected" orbat online. I've rough estimates of regimental
      strengths, but I haven't found anything really definitive there.

      Any thoughts on Burnside still being a Wing Commander and why the
      idea
      of him stubbornly refusing to yield the position came about? This
      is
      the next thing I intend to research...


      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Bryn,
      >
      > Good thoughts and good points. One of the most common errors in
      > much of the writings of this campaign is to attribute the OOB
      > of
      > the ANVa of early October 1862 following the reorganization
      > back
      > to the situation of affairs at Sharpsburg.
      >
      > I have all three of Joe Harsh's books and I think he makes
      > pretty
      > good arguments about how fluid the organizational structure
      > actually was on 17 September.
      >
      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
      >
      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
      > from
      > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Bryn Monnery" <littlegreenmen.geo@...>
      > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 9:32 AM
      > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] The Orbats at Antietam
      >
      >
      > You're correct of course.
      >
      > DH Hill's "Centre Wing" was a bit of a cypher, the divisions
      > operating separately by the provisions of SO191. McLaws'
      > Division
      > had been formed into a 4th wing by the addition of Longstreet's
      > Division (RH Anderson) and another small division from
      > Longstreet's wing (which was originally part of Longstreet's
      > Division and simply returned to it), and Walker was operating
      > independently.
      >
      > Thus all that was on the field at Antietam before Jackson comes
      > in is Longstreet's command with 2 divisions (DR Jones and Hood)
      > and Walton's artillery and DH Hill's command with his own
      > division and 3 Bns of arty reserve.
      >
      > Longstreet posts Hood on the left, with SD Lee's arty, Jones on
      > the right, with Walton, and DH Hill in the centre with the
      > remaining two Bns.
      >
      > When Jackson comes in, he is assigned to take the left wing
      > (his
      > traditional position as 2nd Maj Gen). Hood doesn't reunite with
      > Longstreet, but instead retires slightly (replaced by Ewell's
      > division) and allows his men to cook for the first time that
      > day.
      > I have no idea whether Hood was supposed to return to
      > Longstreet
      > or not, but he certainly fights under Jackson's aegis the next
      > day.
      >
      > McLaws' 4th Wing arrives very early on the 17th, and is held by
      > Lee behind Sharpsburg as a reserve. They are forwarded to
      > Jackson
      > (McLaws') and DH Hill (Longstreet's) later. I have just
      > rechecked
      > the reports of McLaws' brigadiers and it does seem
      > (http://www.civilwarhome.com/macraeantietam.htm ) that McLaws'
      > was indeed still under DH Hill....
      >
      > Walker's encounters Longstreet initially and Longstreet grabs
      > him
      > to replace Hood's, but Lee orders Walker north later, but
      > Walker's report shows he was still receiving orders from
      > Longstreet later in the battle (specifically to shift to
      > reinforce DH Hill).
      >
      > Thus it now seems that only three divisions had the "wrong
      > wing"
      > in command, Walker (Longstreet, not Hill), Hood (Jackson, not
      > Longstreet) and AP Hill (Longstreet, not Jackson).
      >
      > My thoughts have been that the idea of a fluid command
      > structure
      > is in part due to DH Hill being a "Corps Commander" has only
      > been
      > reintroduced ca 10 years ago (Harsh's trilogy), and people have
      > been trying to interpret actions assuming the 7th October
      > organisation.
      >
      > Thoughts?
      >
      > Bryn
      >
      >
      > --- On Wed, 4/2/09, G E Mayers <gerry1952@...> wrote:
      >
      > > From: G E Mayers <gerry1952@...>
      > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] The Orbats at Antietam
      > > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      > > Date: Wednesday, 4 February, 2009, 12:30 PM
      > > Dear Bryn;
      > >
      > > Interesting but not really reflecting the extremely fluid
      > > nature
      > > of the Confederate forces that fought at Sharpsburg.
      > >
      > > IIRC by the time McLaws' division arrives on field and
      > > is thrown
      > > into the fight, Jackson is pretty much out of action. While
      > > the
      > > West Woods area is technically "his"
      > > responsibility, again IIRC,
      > > it is R E Lee who orders McLaws to move to the West Words
      > > area
      > > where Sedgwick is making his attach, not Jackson.
      > >
      > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
      > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
      > >
      > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
      > > even
      > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any
      > > state in the
      > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
      > > from
      > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: "Bryn Monnery"
      > > <littlegreenmen.geo@...>
      > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 5:42 AM
      > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] The Orbats at Antietam
      > >
      > >
      > > Hi,
      > >
      > > While doing some research on Antietam I've found that
      > > the
      > > commonly
      > > accepted orbats seem wrong, based on the orbats implemented
      > > a
      > > week
      > > later (Confederate, see Harsh) or a week earlier (Union,
      > > comfirmed
      > > from McClellans Report to the Secretary of War).
      > >
      > > Thus the organisations of the two armies at Antietam seem
      > > to be:
      > >
      > > Confederate
      > >
      > > Right Wing (Longstreet)
      > > DR Jones' Division
      > > Walker's Division (at the beginning, later attached to
      > > Jackson)
      > > Walton's Arty Bn
      > > Robertson's Cavalry Brigade
      > >
      > > Centre Wing (DH Hill)
      > > DH Hill's Division
      > > Longstreet's Division (RH Anderson)
      > > Cutt's Arty Bn
      > > HP Jones' Arty Bn
      > >
      > > Left Wing (Jackson)
      > > Jackson's Division
      > > Ewell's Division
      > > Hood's Division (attached from Longstreet)
      > > McLaws' Division (attached from DH Hill)
      > > SD Lee's Arty Bn
      > > Stuart with Fitz Lee's Brigade (the corps brigade) and
      > > Hampton's
      > > (DH
      > > Hill's Corps brigade, attached)
      > >
      > > AP Hill is still en route
      > >
      > > Union
      > >
      > > Right Wing (Burnside): 9th Corps and 5th Corps (only
      > > Sykes'
      > > Division
      > > initially, Morell's arrives later), Artillery Reserve
      > > is
      > > attached.
      > >
      > > Centre Wing (Franklin): 6th Corps (arrives very late in the
      > > day)
      > > and
      > > 4th Corps (only one division, absent masking Harper's
      > > Ferry)
      > >
      > > Left Wing (Sumner): 1st, 2nd and 12th Corps, and Cavalry
      > > Division
      > >
      > > NB: The Wing structure *is* still in use at Antietam.
      > >
      > > Any thoughts?
      > >
      > > Bryn
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • DPowell334@AOL.COM
      Jackson has some real problems as a tactical commander, and he keeps making the same mistakes, which suggests that he wasn t very introspective about
      Message 68 of 68 , Feb 12, 2009
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        Jackson has some real problems as a tactical commander, and he keeps making
        the same mistakes, which suggests that he wasn't very introspective about
        developing those skills. None of his battles really display a flair for tactics,
        even Chancellorsville, where his choices of divisions in line instead of
        column greatly complicated his own attack.

        That said, he was quite effective at what we today would call the
        operational art.

        Dave Powell




        In a message dated 2/11/2009 3:21:43 P.M. Central Standard Time,
        gerry1952@... writes:

        Gary Echelbarger is also a great source on the Valley Campaign of
        1862. Mildly said, Jackson got very lucky in the Valley in 1862..
        the only Federal commander to beat him, and do so pretty soundly,
        was James Shields. (Even there, actual field commander was Nathan
        Kimball.) That said, Jackson had, after Shields, mediocre Federal
        commanders to contend with....

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers


        **************Nothing says I love you like flowers! Find a florist near you
        now. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=florist&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000001)


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