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Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Hospital site identification in CS Army

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  • Dave
    Gerry and Dave, the citations I found for the yellow flag were for a field hospital, and were very early in the war. I did find a citation for a red flag on a
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 1, 2009
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      Gerry and Dave, the citations I found for the yellow flag were for a
      field hospital, and were very early in the war. I did find a citation
      for a red flag on a ANV hospital ambulance. The quote I cited
      previously, that any soldier would recognize the yellow flag as a
      hospital, leads me to think that yellow was the normal flag color at
      that time. But, it's only a guess. Since one of the quotes was from
      Sumter, was the yellow flag standard for a field hospital in the pre-war
      army, and later changed by both sides? Would a field hospital and a
      main hospital have different color flags?

      Maybe you could contact the folks at the Pry house. The gentleman in
      there is very helpful and may have connections with the main ACW medical
      museum. I spent an enjoyable hour picking his brain in October, but
      never caught his name.

      Dave McGowan

      G E Mayers wrote:
      >
      > Dear Dave,
      >
      > Thanks for all the info. I do have a facsimile copy of the 1863
      > revision of the "Regulations for the Army of the Confederate
      > States" and was fairly sure the specific color was indeed red. I
      > also have an electronic copy of the respective US Army
      > Regulations.
      >
      > However, there is documentation the Union Army used a yellow
      > rectangular flag with a large green H in the center. And, as you
      > cite Phil Katcher (who is truly quite knowledgeable about the
      > ANVa), that sounds pretty convincing to me.
      >
      > Would wonder if there were any General Orders from the War
      > Department in Richmond, either via the Adjutant and Inspector
      > General 's Office or the Medical Bureau modifying the stated
      > regulations?
      >
      > I also have a copy of J. Boone Bartholmees's excellent work "Buff
      > Facings and Gilt Buttons: Staff and Headquarters Operations in
      > the Army of Northern Virginia: 1861-1865", which does state the A
      > & IGO _did_ modify the regulations as published in the official
      > regulations books by means of General Orders.
      >
      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
      >
      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "flagflop" <dwgaddy@... <mailto:dwgaddy%40verizon.net>>
      > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>>
      > Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 2:55 PM
      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Hospital site identification in CS
      > Army
      >
      > Gerry,
      >
      > 1862 and 1863 CS Army Regs, para 714, specify red. (Same in US
      > Army
      > Revised Regs 1861, para 736 as marker for "the ambulance depot.")
      > However, I see in Philip Katcher's 1994 "The Army of Robert E.
      > Lee,"
      > p. 170, citing J.O. Casler of Stonewall Brigade, that in the ANV
      > hospitals were marked with yellow, rather than red.
      >
      > Dave Gaddy
      >
      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>, "G E Mayers"
      > <gerry1952@...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Gang,
      > >
      > > Can anyone tell me quickly what the CS Army would have used as
      > > a
      > > flag to identify a hospital? IIRC the Union Armies used a
      > > yellow
      > > flag with a green H in the center; however, I am not sure what
      > > the Confederacy would have used.
      > >
      > > If the information is in the relevant CS Regulations, just
      > > point
      > > me to where and I can go look therein.
      > >
      > > Thanks!
      > >
      > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
      > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
      > >
      > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
      > > from
      > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      > >
      >
      >
    • flagflop
      Gerry and T other Dave, Check out two postings by Tom Martin (Piedmont Flag Company) on the Civil War Flags Message Board, his 8665 of 3 Dec and his follow-up,
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 2, 2009
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        Gerry and T'other Dave,

        Check out two postings by Tom Martin (Piedmont Flag Company) on the
        Civil War Flags Message Board, his 8665 of 3 Dec and his follow-up,
        msg 8670 of 5 Dec 2008, the latter at http://history-sites.com/cgi-
        bin/bbs53x/cwflags/webbbs_config.pl?read=8670--- Per his extensive
        research, he points out all of the complications -- that red
        (probably from European precedent) had been specified in regs, and
        that yellow was the quarantine flag. He goes on to note variations in
        usage by area, time period, commanding general, military vs. civilian
        doctors, hospital organization vs. ambulance corps, and other facets.

        Dave Gaddy
        -----------------------------
        In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Dave <gewehr@...> wrote:
        >
        > Gerry and Dave, the citations I found for the yellow flag were for
        a
        > field hospital, and were very early in the war. I did find a
        citation
        > for a red flag on a ANV hospital ambulance. The quote I cited
        > previously, that any soldier would recognize the yellow flag as a
        > hospital, leads me to think that yellow was the normal flag color
        at
        > that time. But, it's only a guess. Since one of the quotes was
        from
        > Sumter, was the yellow flag standard for a field hospital in the
        pre-war
        > army, and later changed by both sides? Would a field hospital and
        a
        > main hospital have different color flags?
        >
        > Maybe you could contact the folks at the Pry house. The gentleman
        in
        > there is very helpful and may have connections with the main ACW
        medical
        > museum. I spent an enjoyable hour picking his brain in October,
        but
        > never caught his name.
        >
        > Dave McGowan
        >
        > G E Mayers wrote:
        > >
        > > Dear Dave,
        > >
        > > Thanks for all the info. I do have a facsimile copy of the 1863
        > > revision of the "Regulations for the Army of the Confederate
        > > States" and was fairly sure the specific color was indeed red. I
        > > also have an electronic copy of the respective US Army
        > > Regulations.
        > >
        > > However, there is documentation the Union Army used a yellow
        > > rectangular flag with a large green H in the center. And, as you
        > > cite Phil Katcher (who is truly quite knowledgeable about the
        > > ANVa), that sounds pretty convincing to me.
        > >
        > > Would wonder if there were any General Orders from the War
        > > Department in Richmond, either via the Adjutant and Inspector
        > > General 's Office or the Medical Bureau modifying the stated
        > > regulations?
        > >
        > > I also have a copy of J. Boone Bartholmees's excellent work "Buff
        > > Facings and Gilt Buttons: Staff and Headquarters Operations in
        > > the Army of Northern Virginia: 1861-1865", which does state the A
        > > & IGO _did_ modify the regulations as published in the official
        > > regulations books by means of General Orders.
        > >
        > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
        > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
        > >
        > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: "flagflop" <dwgaddy@... <mailto:dwgaddy%40verizon.net>>
        > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com <mailto:TalkAntietam%
        40yahoogroups.com>>
        > > Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 2:55 PM
        > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Hospital site identification in CS
        > > Army
        > >
        > > Gerry,
        > >
        > > 1862 and 1863 CS Army Regs, para 714, specify red. (Same in US
        > > Army
        > > Revised Regs 1861, para 736 as marker for "the ambulance depot.")
        > > However, I see in Philip Katcher's 1994 "The Army of Robert E.
        > > Lee,"
        > > p. 170, citing J.O. Casler of Stonewall Brigade, that in the ANV
        > > hospitals were marked with yellow, rather than red.
        > >
        > > Dave Gaddy
        > >
        > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        > > <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>, "G E Mayers"
        > > <gerry1952@>
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Gang,
        > > >
        > > > Can anyone tell me quickly what the CS Army would have used as
        > > > a
        > > > flag to identify a hospital? IIRC the Union Armies used a
        > > > yellow
        > > > flag with a green H in the center; however, I am not sure what
        > > > the Confederacy would have used.
        > > >
        > > > If the information is in the relevant CS Regulations, just
        > > > point
        > > > me to where and I can go look therein.
        > > >
        > > > Thanks!
        > > >
        > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
        > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
        > > >
        > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
        > > > from
        > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        >
      • eighth_conn_inf
        Dave, Excellent info on that link, thank you. I now have another bookmark, too. Larry F. ... in ... civilian ... facets. ... for ... and ... gentleman ... work
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 3, 2009
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          Dave,

          Excellent info on that link, thank you. I now have another bookmark,
          too.

          Larry F.

          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "flagflop" <dwgaddy@...> wrote:
          >
          > Gerry and T'other Dave,
          >
          > Check out two postings by Tom Martin (Piedmont Flag Company) on the
          > Civil War Flags Message Board, his 8665 of 3 Dec and his follow-up,
          > msg 8670 of 5 Dec 2008, the latter at http://history-sites.com/cgi-
          > bin/bbs53x/cwflags/webbbs_config.pl?read=8670--- Per his extensive
          > research, he points out all of the complications -- that red
          > (probably from European precedent) had been specified in regs, and
          > that yellow was the quarantine flag. He goes on to note variations
          in
          > usage by area, time period, commanding general, military vs.
          civilian
          > doctors, hospital organization vs. ambulance corps, and other
          facets.
          >
          > Dave Gaddy
          > -----------------------------
          > In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Dave <gewehr@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Gerry and Dave, the citations I found for the yellow flag were
          for
          > a
          > > field hospital, and were very early in the war. I did find a
          > citation
          > > for a red flag on a ANV hospital ambulance. The quote I cited
          > > previously, that any soldier would recognize the yellow flag as a
          > > hospital, leads me to think that yellow was the normal flag color
          > at
          > > that time. But, it's only a guess. Since one of the quotes was
          > from
          > > Sumter, was the yellow flag standard for a field hospital in the
          > pre-war
          > > army, and later changed by both sides? Would a field hospital
          and
          > a
          > > main hospital have different color flags?
          > >
          > > Maybe you could contact the folks at the Pry house. The
          gentleman
          > in
          > > there is very helpful and may have connections with the main ACW
          > medical
          > > museum. I spent an enjoyable hour picking his brain in October,
          > but
          > > never caught his name.
          > >
          > > Dave McGowan
          > >
          > > G E Mayers wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Dear Dave,
          > > >
          > > > Thanks for all the info. I do have a facsimile copy of the 1863
          > > > revision of the "Regulations for the Army of the Confederate
          > > > States" and was fairly sure the specific color was indeed red. I
          > > > also have an electronic copy of the respective US Army
          > > > Regulations.
          > > >
          > > > However, there is documentation the Union Army used a yellow
          > > > rectangular flag with a large green H in the center. And, as you
          > > > cite Phil Katcher (who is truly quite knowledgeable about the
          > > > ANVa), that sounds pretty convincing to me.
          > > >
          > > > Would wonder if there were any General Orders from the War
          > > > Department in Richmond, either via the Adjutant and Inspector
          > > > General 's Office or the Medical Bureau modifying the stated
          > > > regulations?
          > > >
          > > > I also have a copy of J. Boone Bartholmees's excellent
          work "Buff
          > > > Facings and Gilt Buttons: Staff and Headquarters Operations in
          > > > the Army of Northern Virginia: 1861-1865", which does state the
          A
          > > > & IGO _did_ modify the regulations as published in the official
          > > > regulations books by means of General Orders.
          > > >
          > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
          > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
          > > >
          > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          > > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > > From: "flagflop" <dwgaddy@ <mailto:dwgaddy%40verizon.net>>
          > > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com <mailto:TalkAntietam%
          > 40yahoogroups.com>>
          > > > Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 2:55 PM
          > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Hospital site identification in
          CS
          > > > Army
          > > >
          > > > Gerry,
          > > >
          > > > 1862 and 1863 CS Army Regs, para 714, specify red. (Same in US
          > > > Army
          > > > Revised Regs 1861, para 736 as marker for "the ambulance
          depot.")
          > > > However, I see in Philip Katcher's 1994 "The Army of Robert E.
          > > > Lee,"
          > > > p. 170, citing J.O. Casler of Stonewall Brigade, that in the ANV
          > > > hospitals were marked with yellow, rather than red.
          > > >
          > > > Dave Gaddy
          > > >
          > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          > > > <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>, "G E Mayers"
          > > > <gerry1952@>
          > > > wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Gang,
          > > > >
          > > > > Can anyone tell me quickly what the CS Army would have used as
          > > > > a
          > > > > flag to identify a hospital? IIRC the Union Armies used a
          > > > > yellow
          > > > > flag with a green H in the center; however, I am not sure what
          > > > > the Confederacy would have used.
          > > > >
          > > > > If the information is in the relevant CS Regulations, just
          > > > > point
          > > > > me to where and I can go look therein.
          > > > >
          > > > > Thanks!
          > > > >
          > > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
          > > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
          > > > >
          > > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
          even
          > > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          > > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
          > > > > from
          > > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • G E Mayers
          Dear Dave, Good info on that post! However, re the yellow flagged hospitals vs the red flag ones...IIRC both armies had to resort to using contracted surgeons,
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 3, 2009
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            Dear Dave,

            Good info on that post! However, re the yellow flagged hospitals
            vs the red flag ones...IIRC both armies had to resort to using
            contracted surgeons, largely civilians, to help handle the
            massive influx of wounded and dying that would require medical
            attention after each major battle.

            Yr. Obt. Svt.
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "flagflop" <dwgaddy@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 11:40 PM
            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Hospital site identification in CS
            Army


            Gerry and T'other Dave,

            Check out two postings by Tom Martin (Piedmont Flag Company) on
            the
            Civil War Flags Message Board, his 8665 of 3 Dec and his
            follow-up,
            msg 8670 of 5 Dec 2008, the latter at
            http://history-sites.com/cgi-
            bin/bbs53x/cwflags/webbbs_config.pl?read=8670--- Per his
            extensive
            research, he points out all of the complications -- that red
            (probably from European precedent) had been specified in regs,
            and
            that yellow was the quarantine flag. He goes on to note
            variations in
            usage by area, time period, commanding general, military vs.
            civilian
            doctors, hospital organization vs. ambulance corps, and other
            facets.

            Dave Gaddy
            -----------------------------
            In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Dave <gewehr@...> wrote:
            >
            > Gerry and Dave, the citations I found for the yellow flag were
            > for
            a
            > field hospital, and were very early in the war. I did find a
            citation
            > for a red flag on a ANV hospital ambulance. The quote I cited
            > previously, that any soldier would recognize the yellow flag as
            > a
            > hospital, leads me to think that yellow was the normal flag
            > color
            at
            > that time. But, it's only a guess. Since one of the quotes
            > was
            from
            > Sumter, was the yellow flag standard for a field hospital in
            > the
            pre-war
            > army, and later changed by both sides? Would a field hospital
            > and
            a
            > main hospital have different color flags?
            >
            > Maybe you could contact the folks at the Pry house. The
            > gentleman
            in
            > there is very helpful and may have connections with the main
            > ACW
            medical
            > museum. I spent an enjoyable hour picking his brain in
            > October,
            but
            > never caught his name.
            >
            > Dave McGowan
            >
            > G E Mayers wrote:
            > >
            > > Dear Dave,
            > >
            > > Thanks for all the info. I do have a facsimile copy of the
            > > 1863
            > > revision of the "Regulations for the Army of the Confederate
            > > States" and was fairly sure the specific color was indeed
            > > red. I
            > > also have an electronic copy of the respective US Army
            > > Regulations.
            > >
            > > However, there is documentation the Union Army used a yellow
            > > rectangular flag with a large green H in the center. And, as
            > > you
            > > cite Phil Katcher (who is truly quite knowledgeable about the
            > > ANVa), that sounds pretty convincing to me.
            > >
            > > Would wonder if there were any General Orders from the War
            > > Department in Richmond, either via the Adjutant and Inspector
            > > General 's Office or the Medical Bureau modifying the stated
            > > regulations?
            > >
            > > I also have a copy of J. Boone Bartholmees's excellent work
            > > "Buff
            > > Facings and Gilt Buttons: Staff and Headquarters Operations
            > > in
            > > the Army of Northern Virginia: 1861-1865", which does state
            > > the A
            > > & IGO _did_ modify the regulations as published in the
            > > official
            > > regulations books by means of General Orders.
            > >
            > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
            > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
            > >
            > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
            > > even
            > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in
            > > the
            > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
            > > from
            > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: "flagflop" <dwgaddy@... <mailto:dwgaddy%40verizon.net>>
            > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com <mailto:TalkAntietam%
            40yahoogroups.com>>
            > > Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 2:55 PM
            > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Hospital site identification
            > > in CS
            > > Army
            > >
            > > Gerry,
            > >
            > > 1862 and 1863 CS Army Regs, para 714, specify red. (Same in
            > > US
            > > Army
            > > Revised Regs 1861, para 736 as marker for "the ambulance
            > > depot.")
            > > However, I see in Philip Katcher's 1994 "The Army of Robert
            > > E.
            > > Lee,"
            > > p. 170, citing J.O. Casler of Stonewall Brigade, that in the
            > > ANV
            > > hospitals were marked with yellow, rather than red.
            > >
            > > Dave Gaddy
            > >
            > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            > > <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>, "G E Mayers"
            > > <gerry1952@>
            > > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Gang,
            > > >
            > > > Can anyone tell me quickly what the CS Army would have used
            > > > as
            > > > a
            > > > flag to identify a hospital? IIRC the Union Armies used a
            > > > yellow
            > > > flag with a green H in the center; however, I am not sure
            > > > what
            > > > the Confederacy would have used.
            > > >
            > > > If the information is in the relevant CS Regulations, just
            > > > point
            > > > me to where and I can go look therein.
            > > >
            > > > Thanks!
            > > >
            > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
            > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
            > > >
            > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
            > > > even
            > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in
            > > > the
            > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
            > > > from
            > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            >
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