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Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Hospital site identification in CS Army

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  • G E Mayers
    Dear Dave, Thanks for all the info. I do have a facsimile copy of the 1863 revision of the Regulations for the Army of the Confederate States and was fairly
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 1, 2009
      Dear Dave,

      Thanks for all the info. I do have a facsimile copy of the 1863
      revision of the "Regulations for the Army of the Confederate
      States" and was fairly sure the specific color was indeed red. I
      also have an electronic copy of the respective US Army
      Regulations.

      However, there is documentation the Union Army used a yellow
      rectangular flag with a large green H in the center. And, as you
      cite Phil Katcher (who is truly quite knowledgeable about the
      ANVa), that sounds pretty convincing to me.

      Would wonder if there were any General Orders from the War
      Department in Richmond, either via the Adjutant and Inspector
      General 's Office or the Medical Bureau modifying the stated
      regulations?

      I also have a copy of J. Boone Bartholmees's excellent work "Buff
      Facings and Gilt Buttons: Staff and Headquarters Operations in
      the Army of Northern Virginia: 1861-1865", which does state the A
      & IGO _did_ modify the regulations as published in the official
      regulations books by means of General Orders.

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "flagflop" <dwgaddy@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 2:55 PM
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Hospital site identification in CS
      Army


      Gerry,

      1862 and 1863 CS Army Regs, para 714, specify red. (Same in US
      Army
      Revised Regs 1861, para 736 as marker for "the ambulance depot.")
      However, I see in Philip Katcher's 1994 "The Army of Robert E.
      Lee,"
      p. 170, citing J.O. Casler of Stonewall Brigade, that in the ANV
      hospitals were marked with yellow, rather than red.

      Dave Gaddy

      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers"
      <gerry1952@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Gang,
      >
      > Can anyone tell me quickly what the CS Army would have used as
      > a
      > flag to identify a hospital? IIRC the Union Armies used a
      > yellow
      > flag with a green H in the center; however, I am not sure what
      > the Confederacy would have used.
      >
      > If the information is in the relevant CS Regulations, just
      > point
      > me to where and I can go look therein.
      >
      > Thanks!
      >
      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
      >
      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
      > from
      > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      >
    • Dave
      Gerry and Dave, the citations I found for the yellow flag were for a field hospital, and were very early in the war. I did find a citation for a red flag on a
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 1, 2009
        Gerry and Dave, the citations I found for the yellow flag were for a
        field hospital, and were very early in the war. I did find a citation
        for a red flag on a ANV hospital ambulance. The quote I cited
        previously, that any soldier would recognize the yellow flag as a
        hospital, leads me to think that yellow was the normal flag color at
        that time. But, it's only a guess. Since one of the quotes was from
        Sumter, was the yellow flag standard for a field hospital in the pre-war
        army, and later changed by both sides? Would a field hospital and a
        main hospital have different color flags?

        Maybe you could contact the folks at the Pry house. The gentleman in
        there is very helpful and may have connections with the main ACW medical
        museum. I spent an enjoyable hour picking his brain in October, but
        never caught his name.

        Dave McGowan

        G E Mayers wrote:
        >
        > Dear Dave,
        >
        > Thanks for all the info. I do have a facsimile copy of the 1863
        > revision of the "Regulations for the Army of the Confederate
        > States" and was fairly sure the specific color was indeed red. I
        > also have an electronic copy of the respective US Army
        > Regulations.
        >
        > However, there is documentation the Union Army used a yellow
        > rectangular flag with a large green H in the center. And, as you
        > cite Phil Katcher (who is truly quite knowledgeable about the
        > ANVa), that sounds pretty convincing to me.
        >
        > Would wonder if there were any General Orders from the War
        > Department in Richmond, either via the Adjutant and Inspector
        > General 's Office or the Medical Bureau modifying the stated
        > regulations?
        >
        > I also have a copy of J. Boone Bartholmees's excellent work "Buff
        > Facings and Gilt Buttons: Staff and Headquarters Operations in
        > the Army of Northern Virginia: 1861-1865", which does state the A
        > & IGO _did_ modify the regulations as published in the official
        > regulations books by means of General Orders.
        >
        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
        >
        > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "flagflop" <dwgaddy@... <mailto:dwgaddy%40verizon.net>>
        > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>>
        > Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 2:55 PM
        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Hospital site identification in CS
        > Army
        >
        > Gerry,
        >
        > 1862 and 1863 CS Army Regs, para 714, specify red. (Same in US
        > Army
        > Revised Regs 1861, para 736 as marker for "the ambulance depot.")
        > However, I see in Philip Katcher's 1994 "The Army of Robert E.
        > Lee,"
        > p. 170, citing J.O. Casler of Stonewall Brigade, that in the ANV
        > hospitals were marked with yellow, rather than red.
        >
        > Dave Gaddy
        >
        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>, "G E Mayers"
        > <gerry1952@...>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Gang,
        > >
        > > Can anyone tell me quickly what the CS Army would have used as
        > > a
        > > flag to identify a hospital? IIRC the Union Armies used a
        > > yellow
        > > flag with a green H in the center; however, I am not sure what
        > > the Confederacy would have used.
        > >
        > > If the information is in the relevant CS Regulations, just
        > > point
        > > me to where and I can go look therein.
        > >
        > > Thanks!
        > >
        > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
        > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
        > >
        > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
        > > from
        > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        > >
        >
        >
      • flagflop
        Gerry and T other Dave, Check out two postings by Tom Martin (Piedmont Flag Company) on the Civil War Flags Message Board, his 8665 of 3 Dec and his follow-up,
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 2, 2009
          Gerry and T'other Dave,

          Check out two postings by Tom Martin (Piedmont Flag Company) on the
          Civil War Flags Message Board, his 8665 of 3 Dec and his follow-up,
          msg 8670 of 5 Dec 2008, the latter at http://history-sites.com/cgi-
          bin/bbs53x/cwflags/webbbs_config.pl?read=8670--- Per his extensive
          research, he points out all of the complications -- that red
          (probably from European precedent) had been specified in regs, and
          that yellow was the quarantine flag. He goes on to note variations in
          usage by area, time period, commanding general, military vs. civilian
          doctors, hospital organization vs. ambulance corps, and other facets.

          Dave Gaddy
          -----------------------------
          In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Dave <gewehr@...> wrote:
          >
          > Gerry and Dave, the citations I found for the yellow flag were for
          a
          > field hospital, and were very early in the war. I did find a
          citation
          > for a red flag on a ANV hospital ambulance. The quote I cited
          > previously, that any soldier would recognize the yellow flag as a
          > hospital, leads me to think that yellow was the normal flag color
          at
          > that time. But, it's only a guess. Since one of the quotes was
          from
          > Sumter, was the yellow flag standard for a field hospital in the
          pre-war
          > army, and later changed by both sides? Would a field hospital and
          a
          > main hospital have different color flags?
          >
          > Maybe you could contact the folks at the Pry house. The gentleman
          in
          > there is very helpful and may have connections with the main ACW
          medical
          > museum. I spent an enjoyable hour picking his brain in October,
          but
          > never caught his name.
          >
          > Dave McGowan
          >
          > G E Mayers wrote:
          > >
          > > Dear Dave,
          > >
          > > Thanks for all the info. I do have a facsimile copy of the 1863
          > > revision of the "Regulations for the Army of the Confederate
          > > States" and was fairly sure the specific color was indeed red. I
          > > also have an electronic copy of the respective US Army
          > > Regulations.
          > >
          > > However, there is documentation the Union Army used a yellow
          > > rectangular flag with a large green H in the center. And, as you
          > > cite Phil Katcher (who is truly quite knowledgeable about the
          > > ANVa), that sounds pretty convincing to me.
          > >
          > > Would wonder if there were any General Orders from the War
          > > Department in Richmond, either via the Adjutant and Inspector
          > > General 's Office or the Medical Bureau modifying the stated
          > > regulations?
          > >
          > > I also have a copy of J. Boone Bartholmees's excellent work "Buff
          > > Facings and Gilt Buttons: Staff and Headquarters Operations in
          > > the Army of Northern Virginia: 1861-1865", which does state the A
          > > & IGO _did_ modify the regulations as published in the official
          > > regulations books by means of General Orders.
          > >
          > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
          > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
          > >
          > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: "flagflop" <dwgaddy@... <mailto:dwgaddy%40verizon.net>>
          > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com <mailto:TalkAntietam%
          40yahoogroups.com>>
          > > Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 2:55 PM
          > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Hospital site identification in CS
          > > Army
          > >
          > > Gerry,
          > >
          > > 1862 and 1863 CS Army Regs, para 714, specify red. (Same in US
          > > Army
          > > Revised Regs 1861, para 736 as marker for "the ambulance depot.")
          > > However, I see in Philip Katcher's 1994 "The Army of Robert E.
          > > Lee,"
          > > p. 170, citing J.O. Casler of Stonewall Brigade, that in the ANV
          > > hospitals were marked with yellow, rather than red.
          > >
          > > Dave Gaddy
          > >
          > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
          > > <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>, "G E Mayers"
          > > <gerry1952@>
          > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Gang,
          > > >
          > > > Can anyone tell me quickly what the CS Army would have used as
          > > > a
          > > > flag to identify a hospital? IIRC the Union Armies used a
          > > > yellow
          > > > flag with a green H in the center; however, I am not sure what
          > > > the Confederacy would have used.
          > > >
          > > > If the information is in the relevant CS Regulations, just
          > > > point
          > > > me to where and I can go look therein.
          > > >
          > > > Thanks!
          > > >
          > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
          > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
          > > >
          > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
          > > > from
          > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          >
        • eighth_conn_inf
          Dave, Excellent info on that link, thank you. I now have another bookmark, too. Larry F. ... in ... civilian ... facets. ... for ... and ... gentleman ... work
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 3, 2009
            Dave,

            Excellent info on that link, thank you. I now have another bookmark,
            too.

            Larry F.

            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "flagflop" <dwgaddy@...> wrote:
            >
            > Gerry and T'other Dave,
            >
            > Check out two postings by Tom Martin (Piedmont Flag Company) on the
            > Civil War Flags Message Board, his 8665 of 3 Dec and his follow-up,
            > msg 8670 of 5 Dec 2008, the latter at http://history-sites.com/cgi-
            > bin/bbs53x/cwflags/webbbs_config.pl?read=8670--- Per his extensive
            > research, he points out all of the complications -- that red
            > (probably from European precedent) had been specified in regs, and
            > that yellow was the quarantine flag. He goes on to note variations
            in
            > usage by area, time period, commanding general, military vs.
            civilian
            > doctors, hospital organization vs. ambulance corps, and other
            facets.
            >
            > Dave Gaddy
            > -----------------------------
            > In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Dave <gewehr@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Gerry and Dave, the citations I found for the yellow flag were
            for
            > a
            > > field hospital, and were very early in the war. I did find a
            > citation
            > > for a red flag on a ANV hospital ambulance. The quote I cited
            > > previously, that any soldier would recognize the yellow flag as a
            > > hospital, leads me to think that yellow was the normal flag color
            > at
            > > that time. But, it's only a guess. Since one of the quotes was
            > from
            > > Sumter, was the yellow flag standard for a field hospital in the
            > pre-war
            > > army, and later changed by both sides? Would a field hospital
            and
            > a
            > > main hospital have different color flags?
            > >
            > > Maybe you could contact the folks at the Pry house. The
            gentleman
            > in
            > > there is very helpful and may have connections with the main ACW
            > medical
            > > museum. I spent an enjoyable hour picking his brain in October,
            > but
            > > never caught his name.
            > >
            > > Dave McGowan
            > >
            > > G E Mayers wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Dear Dave,
            > > >
            > > > Thanks for all the info. I do have a facsimile copy of the 1863
            > > > revision of the "Regulations for the Army of the Confederate
            > > > States" and was fairly sure the specific color was indeed red. I
            > > > also have an electronic copy of the respective US Army
            > > > Regulations.
            > > >
            > > > However, there is documentation the Union Army used a yellow
            > > > rectangular flag with a large green H in the center. And, as you
            > > > cite Phil Katcher (who is truly quite knowledgeable about the
            > > > ANVa), that sounds pretty convincing to me.
            > > >
            > > > Would wonder if there were any General Orders from the War
            > > > Department in Richmond, either via the Adjutant and Inspector
            > > > General 's Office or the Medical Bureau modifying the stated
            > > > regulations?
            > > >
            > > > I also have a copy of J. Boone Bartholmees's excellent
            work "Buff
            > > > Facings and Gilt Buttons: Staff and Headquarters Operations in
            > > > the Army of Northern Virginia: 1861-1865", which does state the
            A
            > > > & IGO _did_ modify the regulations as published in the official
            > > > regulations books by means of General Orders.
            > > >
            > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
            > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
            > > >
            > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            > > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > > From: "flagflop" <dwgaddy@ <mailto:dwgaddy%40verizon.net>>
            > > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com <mailto:TalkAntietam%
            > 40yahoogroups.com>>
            > > > Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 2:55 PM
            > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Hospital site identification in
            CS
            > > > Army
            > > >
            > > > Gerry,
            > > >
            > > > 1862 and 1863 CS Army Regs, para 714, specify red. (Same in US
            > > > Army
            > > > Revised Regs 1861, para 736 as marker for "the ambulance
            depot.")
            > > > However, I see in Philip Katcher's 1994 "The Army of Robert E.
            > > > Lee,"
            > > > p. 170, citing J.O. Casler of Stonewall Brigade, that in the ANV
            > > > hospitals were marked with yellow, rather than red.
            > > >
            > > > Dave Gaddy
            > > >
            > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            > > > <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>, "G E Mayers"
            > > > <gerry1952@>
            > > > wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Gang,
            > > > >
            > > > > Can anyone tell me quickly what the CS Army would have used as
            > > > > a
            > > > > flag to identify a hospital? IIRC the Union Armies used a
            > > > > yellow
            > > > > flag with a green H in the center; however, I am not sure what
            > > > > the Confederacy would have used.
            > > > >
            > > > > If the information is in the relevant CS Regulations, just
            > > > > point
            > > > > me to where and I can go look therein.
            > > > >
            > > > > Thanks!
            > > > >
            > > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
            > > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
            > > > >
            > > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
            even
            > > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            > > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
            > > > > from
            > > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • G E Mayers
            Dear Dave, Good info on that post! However, re the yellow flagged hospitals vs the red flag ones...IIRC both armies had to resort to using contracted surgeons,
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 3, 2009
              Dear Dave,

              Good info on that post! However, re the yellow flagged hospitals
              vs the red flag ones...IIRC both armies had to resort to using
              contracted surgeons, largely civilians, to help handle the
              massive influx of wounded and dying that would require medical
              attention after each major battle.

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "flagflop" <dwgaddy@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 11:40 PM
              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Hospital site identification in CS
              Army


              Gerry and T'other Dave,

              Check out two postings by Tom Martin (Piedmont Flag Company) on
              the
              Civil War Flags Message Board, his 8665 of 3 Dec and his
              follow-up,
              msg 8670 of 5 Dec 2008, the latter at
              http://history-sites.com/cgi-
              bin/bbs53x/cwflags/webbbs_config.pl?read=8670--- Per his
              extensive
              research, he points out all of the complications -- that red
              (probably from European precedent) had been specified in regs,
              and
              that yellow was the quarantine flag. He goes on to note
              variations in
              usage by area, time period, commanding general, military vs.
              civilian
              doctors, hospital organization vs. ambulance corps, and other
              facets.

              Dave Gaddy
              -----------------------------
              In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Dave <gewehr@...> wrote:
              >
              > Gerry and Dave, the citations I found for the yellow flag were
              > for
              a
              > field hospital, and were very early in the war. I did find a
              citation
              > for a red flag on a ANV hospital ambulance. The quote I cited
              > previously, that any soldier would recognize the yellow flag as
              > a
              > hospital, leads me to think that yellow was the normal flag
              > color
              at
              > that time. But, it's only a guess. Since one of the quotes
              > was
              from
              > Sumter, was the yellow flag standard for a field hospital in
              > the
              pre-war
              > army, and later changed by both sides? Would a field hospital
              > and
              a
              > main hospital have different color flags?
              >
              > Maybe you could contact the folks at the Pry house. The
              > gentleman
              in
              > there is very helpful and may have connections with the main
              > ACW
              medical
              > museum. I spent an enjoyable hour picking his brain in
              > October,
              but
              > never caught his name.
              >
              > Dave McGowan
              >
              > G E Mayers wrote:
              > >
              > > Dear Dave,
              > >
              > > Thanks for all the info. I do have a facsimile copy of the
              > > 1863
              > > revision of the "Regulations for the Army of the Confederate
              > > States" and was fairly sure the specific color was indeed
              > > red. I
              > > also have an electronic copy of the respective US Army
              > > Regulations.
              > >
              > > However, there is documentation the Union Army used a yellow
              > > rectangular flag with a large green H in the center. And, as
              > > you
              > > cite Phil Katcher (who is truly quite knowledgeable about the
              > > ANVa), that sounds pretty convincing to me.
              > >
              > > Would wonder if there were any General Orders from the War
              > > Department in Richmond, either via the Adjutant and Inspector
              > > General 's Office or the Medical Bureau modifying the stated
              > > regulations?
              > >
              > > I also have a copy of J. Boone Bartholmees's excellent work
              > > "Buff
              > > Facings and Gilt Buttons: Staff and Headquarters Operations
              > > in
              > > the Army of Northern Virginia: 1861-1865", which does state
              > > the A
              > > & IGO _did_ modify the regulations as published in the
              > > official
              > > regulations books by means of General Orders.
              > >
              > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
              > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
              > >
              > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
              > > even
              > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in
              > > the
              > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
              > > from
              > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "flagflop" <dwgaddy@... <mailto:dwgaddy%40verizon.net>>
              > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com <mailto:TalkAntietam%
              40yahoogroups.com>>
              > > Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 2:55 PM
              > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Hospital site identification
              > > in CS
              > > Army
              > >
              > > Gerry,
              > >
              > > 1862 and 1863 CS Army Regs, para 714, specify red. (Same in
              > > US
              > > Army
              > > Revised Regs 1861, para 736 as marker for "the ambulance
              > > depot.")
              > > However, I see in Philip Katcher's 1994 "The Army of Robert
              > > E.
              > > Lee,"
              > > p. 170, citing J.O. Casler of Stonewall Brigade, that in the
              > > ANV
              > > hospitals were marked with yellow, rather than red.
              > >
              > > Dave Gaddy
              > >
              > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
              > > <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>, "G E Mayers"
              > > <gerry1952@>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Gang,
              > > >
              > > > Can anyone tell me quickly what the CS Army would have used
              > > > as
              > > > a
              > > > flag to identify a hospital? IIRC the Union Armies used a
              > > > yellow
              > > > flag with a green H in the center; however, I am not sure
              > > > what
              > > > the Confederacy would have used.
              > > >
              > > > If the information is in the relevant CS Regulations, just
              > > > point
              > > > me to where and I can go look therein.
              > > >
              > > > Thanks!
              > > >
              > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
              > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
              > > >
              > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
              > > > even
              > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in
              > > > the
              > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
              > > > from
              > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              >
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