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Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Help with numbers present in several Union regiments

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  • G E Mayers
    Bryn, This is much more than the original question asked for! LOL. Where did you get the numbers? Carman? Dyer s Compendium? Another source? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 29, 2008
      Bryn,

      This is much more than the original question asked for! LOL.

      Where did you get the numbers? Carman? Dyer's Compendium? Another
      source?

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Bryn Monnery" <littlegreenmen.geo@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 1:40 PM
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Help with numbers present in several
      Union regiments


      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Rob & Patti Erickson"
      <pattirobpatti@...> wrote:
      >
      > Esteemed members, I am looking for information about the
      > number of
      > men "Present for Duty, Equipped" for the following Union
      > regiments at
      > Antietam:

      All PFD (including detachments, on average deduct 1/3rd to get
      the
      number of combatants)

      Rgt PFD
      8th Conn 375
      11th Conn 430
      14th Conn 751
      16th Conn 739
      1st Del 708
      2nd Del 310
      3rd Del 126
      7th Ind 220
      14th Ind 320
      19th Ind 268
      27th Ind 409
      2nd Maine 173
      5th Maine 299
      6th Maine 329
      7th Maine 181
      10th Maine 297
      20th Maine 788
      5th Maryland 550
      2nd Mass/Zouaves Afrique 488
      7th Mass 301
      9th Mass/2nd DC 379
      10th Mass 352
      12th Mass 334
      13th Mass 301
      15th Mass 606
      18th Mass 282
      19th Mass 418
      20th Mass 400
      21st Mass 158
      22nd Mass 166
      28th Mass 217
      29th Mass 380
      32nd Mass 315
      35th Mass 750
      1st Mich 152
      4th Mich 288
      7th Mich 402
      8th Mich 435
      16th Mich 122
      17th Mich 525
      1st Minn 477
      1st NJ 308
      2nd NJ 283
      3rd NJ 291
      4th NJ 331
      13th NJ 630
      5th NH 319
      6th NH 157
      9th NH 710
      5th NY 208
      7th NY 322
      9th NY 375
      10th NY 315
      12th NY 159
      13th NY 160
      14th NY 300
      16th NY 343
      17th NY 124
      18th NY 292
      20th NY 680
      21st NY 150
      22nd/24th NY 121
      23rd NY 259
      25th NY 153
      26th NY 211
      27th NY 311
      28th NY/46th Penn 220
      30th/84th NY 128
      31st NY 319
      32nd NY 317
      33rd NY 380
      34th NY 311
      35th NY 252
      42nd NY 345
      43rd NY 390
      44th NY 120
      46th NY 278
      49th NY 268
      51st NY 338
      52nd NY 120
      57th NY 309
      59th NY 381
      60th NY 226
      61st NY 121
      62nd NY 318
      63rd NY 341
      64th NY 233
      65th NY 323
      66th NY 303
      67th NY 259
      69th NY 317
      77th NY 177
      78th NY 221
      79th NY 193
      80th NY 150
      82nd NY 339
      83rd NY 288
      88th NY 302
      89th NY 368
      94th NY 235
      97th NY 203
      102nd NY 163
      103rd NY 202
      104th NY 282
      105th NY 298
      107th NY 850
      108th NY 750
      122nd NY 617
      8th Ohio 341
      5th Ohio 161
      7th Ohio 120
      11th Ohio 430
      12th Ohio 200
      23rd Ohio 360
      28th Ohio 719
      30th Ohio 342
      36th Ohio 739
      66th Ohio 122
      1st Penn Res 225
      2nd Penn Res 223
      3rd Penn Res 211
      4th Penn Res 281
      5th Penn Res 241
      6th Penn Res 314
      7th Penn Res 285
      8th Penn Res 253
      9th Penn Res 264
      10th Penn Res 160
      11th Penn Res 179
      12th Penn Res 220
      13th Penn Res 275
      23rd Penn 284
      28th Penn 650
      45th Penn 560
      48th Penn 390
      49th Penn 317
      50th Penn 370
      51st Penn 333
      61st Penn 307
      62nd Penn 435
      69th Penn 486
      71st Penn 470
      72nd Penn 601
      81st Penn 319
      82nd Penn+F188 298
      83rd Penn 123
      93rd Penn 299
      95th Penn 339
      96th Penn 304
      98th Penn 317
      100th Penn 356
      102nd Penn 360
      106th Penn 462
      107th Penn 190
      111th Penn 253
      118th Penn 737
      124th Penn 655
      125th Penn 689
      128th Penn 650
      130th Penn 690
      132nd Penn 750
      137th Penn 681
      139th Penn 649
      2nd RI 265
      4th RI 247
      2nd Ver 307
      3rd Ver 322
      4th Ver 372
      5th Ver 366
      6th Ver 402
      2nd Wisc 172
      3rd Wisc 340
      5th Wisc 397
      6th Wisc 314
      7th Wisc 190
      1st US 182
      2nd/10th US 402
      3rd US 197
      4th US 318
      11th US 249
      1st Bn 12th US 155
      2nd Bn 12th US 128
      1st Bn 14th US 310
      2nd Bn 14th US 331
      17th US 309
      Purnell Leg 204

      total 63056
      average 339.0107527
    • Dean Essig
      ... As far as I ve been able to tell, yes. They hired a grad student some time ago to create a file for each regiment in Ted Alexander s office. Most all the
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 29, 2008
        On Oct 29, 2008, at 4:07 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

        > Does the park use Carman as a basis for the numbers?

        As far as I've been able to tell, yes.

        They hired a grad student some time ago to create a file for each
        regiment in Ted Alexander's office. Most all the numbers agree with
        Carmen, there are a few typos (quite possibly my own when I
        transposed them for my records) and some of the numbers in unengaged
        units look a little too perfect to be right. For example, I have a
        hard time believing all the regiments in First Division 6th Corps
        have exactly 400 men, as do the first two brigades of second division.





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Rob & Patti Erickson
        Bryn, thanks for all the info. What source(s) did you use? BTW, what is F188 that you included with the 82nd PA? Thanks, Rob
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 29, 2008
          Bryn, thanks for all the info. What source(s) did you use?

          BTW, what is "F188" that you included with the 82nd PA?

          Thanks, Rob

          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Bryn Monnery"
          <littlegreenmen.geo@...> wrote:
          >

          > 82nd Penn+F188 298
        • Bryn Monnery
          ... The Sid Meier game, which itself sourced Carman. I ve verified several regimental strengths and it seems to be okay, certainly to best I ve found. Antietam
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 1 4:49 AM
            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Rob & Patti Erickson"
            <pattirobpatti@...> wrote:
            >
            > Bryn, thanks for all the info. What source(s) did you use?

            The Sid Meier game, which itself sourced Carman. I've verified several
            regimental strengths and it seems to be okay, certainly to best I've
            found.

            Antietam is one of those battles I've had real problems ascertaining
            actual combat strengths, and I'm still looking for better.

            > BTW, what is "F188" that you included with the 82nd PA?

            Spreadsheet error. I think the list in Bde/Div/Corps order was in cell
            F188 and I made a mistake copying and pasting.

            > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Bryn Monnery"
            > <littlegreenmen.geo@> wrote:
            > >
            >
            > > 82nd Penn+F188 298
            >
          • G E Mayers
            Bryn, Trying to determine actual present for field duty strengths for almost any battle of the War has been a most challenging task. Antietam is particularly
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 1 5:40 AM
              Bryn,

              Trying to determine actual present for field duty strengths for
              almost any battle of the War has been a most challenging task.
              Antietam is particularly challenging due to the lack of more
              complete Confederate records.

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Bryn Monnery" <littlegreenmen.geo@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 7:49 AM
              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Help with numbers present in several
              Union regiments


              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Rob & Patti Erickson"
              <pattirobpatti@...> wrote:
              >
              > Bryn, thanks for all the info. What source(s) did you use?

              The Sid Meier game, which itself sourced Carman. I've verified
              several
              regimental strengths and it seems to be okay, certainly to best
              I've
              found.

              Antietam is one of those battles I've had real problems
              ascertaining
              actual combat strengths, and I'm still looking for better.

              > BTW, what is "F188" that you included with the 82nd PA?

              Spreadsheet error. I think the list in Bde/Div/Corps order was in
              cell
              F188 and I made a mistake copying and pasting.

              > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Bryn Monnery"
              > <littlegreenmen.geo@> wrote:
              > >
              >
              > > 82nd Penn+F188 298
              >
            • Bryn Monnery
              The different measures of strength (P, PFD, PFDE, Effectives etc.) are also problematic. For the Confederates in one way it s easier. They tended to use
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 1 6:16 AM
                The different measures of strength (P, PFD, PFDE, Effectives etc.) are
                also problematic.

                For the Confederates in one way it's easier. They tended to use
                effectives or muskets, and so we can have a good idea the bayonet
                strength where this data is available.

                The Union tended to include detachments in their regimental PFD
                reports, so Union strength tends to be overstated. A vast quantity of
                information about the 91st PA is online
                (http://freepages.military.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~pa91/cbant.html )
                and worth a look. Unfortunately, the database of Morning States starts
                in Feb 63.

                However, deducting 1/3rd of the PFD is a fair indicator of actual
                combatants in this period. When Sherman later took over the Army of
                the Cumberland he noted that fully half the army were non-combatants.

                Taking Harsh's figures, at Antietam it looks like 30,000 odd CS
                infantry squared up against 40,000 US infantry, but the figures are
                highly debatable.

                > Bryn,
                >
                > Trying to determine actual present for field duty strengths for
                > almost any battle of the War has been a most challenging task.
                > Antietam is particularly challenging due to the lack of more
                > complete Confederate records.
                >
                > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                >
                > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Bryn Monnery" <littlegreenmen.geo@...>
                > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 7:49 AM
                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Help with numbers present in several
                > Union regiments
                >
                >
                > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Rob & Patti Erickson"
                > <pattirobpatti@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Bryn, thanks for all the info. What source(s) did you use?
                >
                > The Sid Meier game, which itself sourced Carman. I've verified
                > several
                > regimental strengths and it seems to be okay, certainly to best
                > I've
                > found.
                >
                > Antietam is one of those battles I've had real problems
                > ascertaining
                > actual combat strengths, and I'm still looking for better.
                >
                > > BTW, what is "F188" that you included with the 82nd PA?
                >
                > Spreadsheet error. I think the list in Bde/Div/Corps order was in
                > cell
                > F188 and I made a mistake copying and pasting.
                >
                > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Bryn Monnery"
                > > <littlegreenmen.geo@> wrote:
                > > >
                > >
                > > > 82nd Penn+F188 298
                > >
                >
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