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Re: Help with numbers present in several Union regiments

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  • Bryn Monnery
    ... All PFD (including detachments, on average deduct 1/3rd to get the number of combatants) Rgt PFD 8th Conn 375 11th Conn 430 14th Conn 751 16th Conn 739 1st
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 29, 2008
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      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Rob & Patti Erickson"
      <pattirobpatti@...> wrote:
      >
      > Esteemed members, I am looking for information about the number of
      > men "Present for Duty, Equipped" for the following Union regiments at
      > Antietam:

      All PFD (including detachments, on average deduct 1/3rd to get the
      number of combatants)

      Rgt PFD
      8th Conn 375
      11th Conn 430
      14th Conn 751
      16th Conn 739
      1st Del 708
      2nd Del 310
      3rd Del 126
      7th Ind 220
      14th Ind 320
      19th Ind 268
      27th Ind 409
      2nd Maine 173
      5th Maine 299
      6th Maine 329
      7th Maine 181
      10th Maine 297
      20th Maine 788
      5th Maryland 550
      2nd Mass/Zouaves Afrique 488
      7th Mass 301
      9th Mass/2nd DC 379
      10th Mass 352
      12th Mass 334
      13th Mass 301
      15th Mass 606
      18th Mass 282
      19th Mass 418
      20th Mass 400
      21st Mass 158
      22nd Mass 166
      28th Mass 217
      29th Mass 380
      32nd Mass 315
      35th Mass 750
      1st Mich 152
      4th Mich 288
      7th Mich 402
      8th Mich 435
      16th Mich 122
      17th Mich 525
      1st Minn 477
      1st NJ 308
      2nd NJ 283
      3rd NJ 291
      4th NJ 331
      13th NJ 630
      5th NH 319
      6th NH 157
      9th NH 710
      5th NY 208
      7th NY 322
      9th NY 375
      10th NY 315
      12th NY 159
      13th NY 160
      14th NY 300
      16th NY 343
      17th NY 124
      18th NY 292
      20th NY 680
      21st NY 150
      22nd/24th NY 121
      23rd NY 259
      25th NY 153
      26th NY 211
      27th NY 311
      28th NY/46th Penn 220
      30th/84th NY 128
      31st NY 319
      32nd NY 317
      33rd NY 380
      34th NY 311
      35th NY 252
      42nd NY 345
      43rd NY 390
      44th NY 120
      46th NY 278
      49th NY 268
      51st NY 338
      52nd NY 120
      57th NY 309
      59th NY 381
      60th NY 226
      61st NY 121
      62nd NY 318
      63rd NY 341
      64th NY 233
      65th NY 323
      66th NY 303
      67th NY 259
      69th NY 317
      77th NY 177
      78th NY 221
      79th NY 193
      80th NY 150
      82nd NY 339
      83rd NY 288
      88th NY 302
      89th NY 368
      94th NY 235
      97th NY 203
      102nd NY 163
      103rd NY 202
      104th NY 282
      105th NY 298
      107th NY 850
      108th NY 750
      122nd NY 617
      8th Ohio 341
      5th Ohio 161
      7th Ohio 120
      11th Ohio 430
      12th Ohio 200
      23rd Ohio 360
      28th Ohio 719
      30th Ohio 342
      36th Ohio 739
      66th Ohio 122
      1st Penn Res 225
      2nd Penn Res 223
      3rd Penn Res 211
      4th Penn Res 281
      5th Penn Res 241
      6th Penn Res 314
      7th Penn Res 285
      8th Penn Res 253
      9th Penn Res 264
      10th Penn Res 160
      11th Penn Res 179
      12th Penn Res 220
      13th Penn Res 275
      23rd Penn 284
      28th Penn 650
      45th Penn 560
      48th Penn 390
      49th Penn 317
      50th Penn 370
      51st Penn 333
      61st Penn 307
      62nd Penn 435
      69th Penn 486
      71st Penn 470
      72nd Penn 601
      81st Penn 319
      82nd Penn+F188 298
      83rd Penn 123
      93rd Penn 299
      95th Penn 339
      96th Penn 304
      98th Penn 317
      100th Penn 356
      102nd Penn 360
      106th Penn 462
      107th Penn 190
      111th Penn 253
      118th Penn 737
      124th Penn 655
      125th Penn 689
      128th Penn 650
      130th Penn 690
      132nd Penn 750
      137th Penn 681
      139th Penn 649
      2nd RI 265
      4th RI 247
      2nd Ver 307
      3rd Ver 322
      4th Ver 372
      5th Ver 366
      6th Ver 402
      2nd Wisc 172
      3rd Wisc 340
      5th Wisc 397
      6th Wisc 314
      7th Wisc 190
      1st US 182
      2nd/10th US 402
      3rd US 197
      4th US 318
      11th US 249
      1st Bn 12th US 155
      2nd Bn 12th US 128
      1st Bn 14th US 310
      2nd Bn 14th US 331
      17th US 309
      Purnell Leg 204

      total 63056
      average 339.0107527
    • G E Mayers
      Bryn, This is much more than the original question asked for! LOL. Where did you get the numbers? Carman? Dyer s Compendium? Another source? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 29, 2008
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        Bryn,

        This is much more than the original question asked for! LOL.

        Where did you get the numbers? Carman? Dyer's Compendium? Another
        source?

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Bryn Monnery" <littlegreenmen.geo@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 1:40 PM
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Help with numbers present in several
        Union regiments


        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Rob & Patti Erickson"
        <pattirobpatti@...> wrote:
        >
        > Esteemed members, I am looking for information about the
        > number of
        > men "Present for Duty, Equipped" for the following Union
        > regiments at
        > Antietam:

        All PFD (including detachments, on average deduct 1/3rd to get
        the
        number of combatants)

        Rgt PFD
        8th Conn 375
        11th Conn 430
        14th Conn 751
        16th Conn 739
        1st Del 708
        2nd Del 310
        3rd Del 126
        7th Ind 220
        14th Ind 320
        19th Ind 268
        27th Ind 409
        2nd Maine 173
        5th Maine 299
        6th Maine 329
        7th Maine 181
        10th Maine 297
        20th Maine 788
        5th Maryland 550
        2nd Mass/Zouaves Afrique 488
        7th Mass 301
        9th Mass/2nd DC 379
        10th Mass 352
        12th Mass 334
        13th Mass 301
        15th Mass 606
        18th Mass 282
        19th Mass 418
        20th Mass 400
        21st Mass 158
        22nd Mass 166
        28th Mass 217
        29th Mass 380
        32nd Mass 315
        35th Mass 750
        1st Mich 152
        4th Mich 288
        7th Mich 402
        8th Mich 435
        16th Mich 122
        17th Mich 525
        1st Minn 477
        1st NJ 308
        2nd NJ 283
        3rd NJ 291
        4th NJ 331
        13th NJ 630
        5th NH 319
        6th NH 157
        9th NH 710
        5th NY 208
        7th NY 322
        9th NY 375
        10th NY 315
        12th NY 159
        13th NY 160
        14th NY 300
        16th NY 343
        17th NY 124
        18th NY 292
        20th NY 680
        21st NY 150
        22nd/24th NY 121
        23rd NY 259
        25th NY 153
        26th NY 211
        27th NY 311
        28th NY/46th Penn 220
        30th/84th NY 128
        31st NY 319
        32nd NY 317
        33rd NY 380
        34th NY 311
        35th NY 252
        42nd NY 345
        43rd NY 390
        44th NY 120
        46th NY 278
        49th NY 268
        51st NY 338
        52nd NY 120
        57th NY 309
        59th NY 381
        60th NY 226
        61st NY 121
        62nd NY 318
        63rd NY 341
        64th NY 233
        65th NY 323
        66th NY 303
        67th NY 259
        69th NY 317
        77th NY 177
        78th NY 221
        79th NY 193
        80th NY 150
        82nd NY 339
        83rd NY 288
        88th NY 302
        89th NY 368
        94th NY 235
        97th NY 203
        102nd NY 163
        103rd NY 202
        104th NY 282
        105th NY 298
        107th NY 850
        108th NY 750
        122nd NY 617
        8th Ohio 341
        5th Ohio 161
        7th Ohio 120
        11th Ohio 430
        12th Ohio 200
        23rd Ohio 360
        28th Ohio 719
        30th Ohio 342
        36th Ohio 739
        66th Ohio 122
        1st Penn Res 225
        2nd Penn Res 223
        3rd Penn Res 211
        4th Penn Res 281
        5th Penn Res 241
        6th Penn Res 314
        7th Penn Res 285
        8th Penn Res 253
        9th Penn Res 264
        10th Penn Res 160
        11th Penn Res 179
        12th Penn Res 220
        13th Penn Res 275
        23rd Penn 284
        28th Penn 650
        45th Penn 560
        48th Penn 390
        49th Penn 317
        50th Penn 370
        51st Penn 333
        61st Penn 307
        62nd Penn 435
        69th Penn 486
        71st Penn 470
        72nd Penn 601
        81st Penn 319
        82nd Penn+F188 298
        83rd Penn 123
        93rd Penn 299
        95th Penn 339
        96th Penn 304
        98th Penn 317
        100th Penn 356
        102nd Penn 360
        106th Penn 462
        107th Penn 190
        111th Penn 253
        118th Penn 737
        124th Penn 655
        125th Penn 689
        128th Penn 650
        130th Penn 690
        132nd Penn 750
        137th Penn 681
        139th Penn 649
        2nd RI 265
        4th RI 247
        2nd Ver 307
        3rd Ver 322
        4th Ver 372
        5th Ver 366
        6th Ver 402
        2nd Wisc 172
        3rd Wisc 340
        5th Wisc 397
        6th Wisc 314
        7th Wisc 190
        1st US 182
        2nd/10th US 402
        3rd US 197
        4th US 318
        11th US 249
        1st Bn 12th US 155
        2nd Bn 12th US 128
        1st Bn 14th US 310
        2nd Bn 14th US 331
        17th US 309
        Purnell Leg 204

        total 63056
        average 339.0107527
      • G E Mayers
        Dear Dean, Does the park use Carman as a basis for the numbers? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 29, 2008
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          Dear Dean,

          Does the park use Carman as a basis for the numbers?

          Yr. Obt. Svt.
          G E "Gerry" Mayers

          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Rob & Patti Erickson" <pattirobpatti@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 1:27 PM
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Help with numbers present in several
          Union regiments


          Dean, wow, thanks for the quick reply and the info. Rob


          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Dean Essig <d.essig@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Hi Rob!
          >
          > Here's the best I have...
          >
          > On Oct 29, 2008, at 11:38 AM, Rob & Patti Erickson wrote:
          >
          > > Esteemed members, I am looking for information about the
          > > number of
          > > men "Present for Duty, Equipped" for the following Union
          regiments at
          > > Antietam:
          > >
          > > 5th Maryland (II Corps, 3rd Division, 3rd/Weber's Brigade)
          > >
          >
          >
          > > ...550... park records.
          > >
          > > 124th Pennsylvania (XII Corps, 1st Dv., 1st Bde.)
          > >
          >
          > > ...670... park records.
          > >
          > > 125th PA (ditto)
          > >
          > > 128th PA (ditto)
          > >
          >
          > ... the park listing has 670 for all three. Best guess,
          > probably.
          > >
          > >
          > > Gilmore's WV Cavalry Company (Kanawha Division)
          > >
          > > Harrison's WV Cavalry Company (ditto)
          > >
          >
          >
          > > ...I have 50 men for both of those, but it is my own best
          > > guess.
          > >
          > > Schambach's IL Cavalry (ditto)
          > >
          >
          >
          > > ...67... http://www.lib.niu.edu/1999/ihwt9916.html
          > >
          >
          > >
          > > 3rd Independant Company, Ohio Cavalry (ditto)
          > >
          >
          >
          > > ... I don't have info on them.
          > >
          > > 1st U. S. Cavalr
          > >
          >
          > ... Same as above.
          >
          > Hope that helps!
          >
          > Dean
          > >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Dean Essig
          ... As far as I ve been able to tell, yes. They hired a grad student some time ago to create a file for each regiment in Ted Alexander s office. Most all the
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 29, 2008
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            On Oct 29, 2008, at 4:07 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

            > Does the park use Carman as a basis for the numbers?

            As far as I've been able to tell, yes.

            They hired a grad student some time ago to create a file for each
            regiment in Ted Alexander's office. Most all the numbers agree with
            Carmen, there are a few typos (quite possibly my own when I
            transposed them for my records) and some of the numbers in unengaged
            units look a little too perfect to be right. For example, I have a
            hard time believing all the regiments in First Division 6th Corps
            have exactly 400 men, as do the first two brigades of second division.





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Rob & Patti Erickson
            Bryn, thanks for all the info. What source(s) did you use? BTW, what is F188 that you included with the 82nd PA? Thanks, Rob
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 29, 2008
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              Bryn, thanks for all the info. What source(s) did you use?

              BTW, what is "F188" that you included with the 82nd PA?

              Thanks, Rob

              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Bryn Monnery"
              <littlegreenmen.geo@...> wrote:
              >

              > 82nd Penn+F188 298
            • Bryn Monnery
              ... The Sid Meier game, which itself sourced Carman. I ve verified several regimental strengths and it seems to be okay, certainly to best I ve found. Antietam
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 1, 2008
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                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Rob & Patti Erickson"
                <pattirobpatti@...> wrote:
                >
                > Bryn, thanks for all the info. What source(s) did you use?

                The Sid Meier game, which itself sourced Carman. I've verified several
                regimental strengths and it seems to be okay, certainly to best I've
                found.

                Antietam is one of those battles I've had real problems ascertaining
                actual combat strengths, and I'm still looking for better.

                > BTW, what is "F188" that you included with the 82nd PA?

                Spreadsheet error. I think the list in Bde/Div/Corps order was in cell
                F188 and I made a mistake copying and pasting.

                > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Bryn Monnery"
                > <littlegreenmen.geo@> wrote:
                > >
                >
                > > 82nd Penn+F188 298
                >
              • G E Mayers
                Bryn, Trying to determine actual present for field duty strengths for almost any battle of the War has been a most challenging task. Antietam is particularly
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 1, 2008
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                  Bryn,

                  Trying to determine actual present for field duty strengths for
                  almost any battle of the War has been a most challenging task.
                  Antietam is particularly challenging due to the lack of more
                  complete Confederate records.

                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Bryn Monnery" <littlegreenmen.geo@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 7:49 AM
                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Help with numbers present in several
                  Union regiments


                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Rob & Patti Erickson"
                  <pattirobpatti@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Bryn, thanks for all the info. What source(s) did you use?

                  The Sid Meier game, which itself sourced Carman. I've verified
                  several
                  regimental strengths and it seems to be okay, certainly to best
                  I've
                  found.

                  Antietam is one of those battles I've had real problems
                  ascertaining
                  actual combat strengths, and I'm still looking for better.

                  > BTW, what is "F188" that you included with the 82nd PA?

                  Spreadsheet error. I think the list in Bde/Div/Corps order was in
                  cell
                  F188 and I made a mistake copying and pasting.

                  > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Bryn Monnery"
                  > <littlegreenmen.geo@> wrote:
                  > >
                  >
                  > > 82nd Penn+F188 298
                  >
                • Bryn Monnery
                  The different measures of strength (P, PFD, PFDE, Effectives etc.) are also problematic. For the Confederates in one way it s easier. They tended to use
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 1, 2008
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                    The different measures of strength (P, PFD, PFDE, Effectives etc.) are
                    also problematic.

                    For the Confederates in one way it's easier. They tended to use
                    effectives or muskets, and so we can have a good idea the bayonet
                    strength where this data is available.

                    The Union tended to include detachments in their regimental PFD
                    reports, so Union strength tends to be overstated. A vast quantity of
                    information about the 91st PA is online
                    (http://freepages.military.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~pa91/cbant.html )
                    and worth a look. Unfortunately, the database of Morning States starts
                    in Feb 63.

                    However, deducting 1/3rd of the PFD is a fair indicator of actual
                    combatants in this period. When Sherman later took over the Army of
                    the Cumberland he noted that fully half the army were non-combatants.

                    Taking Harsh's figures, at Antietam it looks like 30,000 odd CS
                    infantry squared up against 40,000 US infantry, but the figures are
                    highly debatable.

                    > Bryn,
                    >
                    > Trying to determine actual present for field duty strengths for
                    > almost any battle of the War has been a most challenging task.
                    > Antietam is particularly challenging due to the lack of more
                    > complete Confederate records.
                    >
                    > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                    >
                    > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                    > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Bryn Monnery" <littlegreenmen.geo@...>
                    > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 7:49 AM
                    > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Help with numbers present in several
                    > Union regiments
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Rob & Patti Erickson"
                    > <pattirobpatti@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Bryn, thanks for all the info. What source(s) did you use?
                    >
                    > The Sid Meier game, which itself sourced Carman. I've verified
                    > several
                    > regimental strengths and it seems to be okay, certainly to best
                    > I've
                    > found.
                    >
                    > Antietam is one of those battles I've had real problems
                    > ascertaining
                    > actual combat strengths, and I'm still looking for better.
                    >
                    > > BTW, what is "F188" that you included with the 82nd PA?
                    >
                    > Spreadsheet error. I think the list in Bde/Div/Corps order was in
                    > cell
                    > F188 and I made a mistake copying and pasting.
                    >
                    > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Bryn Monnery"
                    > > <littlegreenmen.geo@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > > 82nd Penn+F188 298
                    > >
                    >
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