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Re: Help with numbers present in several Union regiments

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  • Rob & Patti Erickson
    Dean, wow, thanks for the quick reply and the info. Rob ... regiments at
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 29, 2008
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      Dean, wow, thanks for the quick reply and the info. Rob


      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Dean Essig <d.essig@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Rob!
      >
      > Here's the best I have...
      >
      > On Oct 29, 2008, at 11:38 AM, Rob & Patti Erickson wrote:
      >
      > > Esteemed members, I am looking for information about the number of
      > > men "Present for Duty, Equipped" for the following Union
      regiments at
      > > Antietam:
      > >
      > > 5th Maryland (II Corps, 3rd Division, 3rd/Weber's Brigade)
      > >
      >
      >
      > > ...550... park records.
      > >
      > > 124th Pennsylvania (XII Corps, 1st Dv., 1st Bde.)
      > >
      >
      > > ...670... park records.
      > >
      > > 125th PA (ditto)
      > >
      > > 128th PA (ditto)
      > >
      >
      > ... the park listing has 670 for all three. Best guess, probably.
      > >
      > >
      > > Gilmore's WV Cavalry Company (Kanawha Division)
      > >
      > > Harrison's WV Cavalry Company (ditto)
      > >
      >
      >
      > > ...I have 50 men for both of those, but it is my own best guess.
      > >
      > > Schambach's IL Cavalry (ditto)
      > >
      >
      >
      > > ...67... http://www.lib.niu.edu/1999/ihwt9916.html
      > >
      >
      > >
      > > 3rd Independant Company, Ohio Cavalry (ditto)
      > >
      >
      >
      > > ... I don't have info on them.
      > >
      > > 1st U. S. Cavalr
      > >
      >
      > ... Same as above.
      >
      > Hope that helps!
      >
      > Dean
      > >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Bryn Monnery
      ... All PFD (including detachments, on average deduct 1/3rd to get the number of combatants) Rgt PFD 8th Conn 375 11th Conn 430 14th Conn 751 16th Conn 739 1st
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 29, 2008
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        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Rob & Patti Erickson"
        <pattirobpatti@...> wrote:
        >
        > Esteemed members, I am looking for information about the number of
        > men "Present for Duty, Equipped" for the following Union regiments at
        > Antietam:

        All PFD (including detachments, on average deduct 1/3rd to get the
        number of combatants)

        Rgt PFD
        8th Conn 375
        11th Conn 430
        14th Conn 751
        16th Conn 739
        1st Del 708
        2nd Del 310
        3rd Del 126
        7th Ind 220
        14th Ind 320
        19th Ind 268
        27th Ind 409
        2nd Maine 173
        5th Maine 299
        6th Maine 329
        7th Maine 181
        10th Maine 297
        20th Maine 788
        5th Maryland 550
        2nd Mass/Zouaves Afrique 488
        7th Mass 301
        9th Mass/2nd DC 379
        10th Mass 352
        12th Mass 334
        13th Mass 301
        15th Mass 606
        18th Mass 282
        19th Mass 418
        20th Mass 400
        21st Mass 158
        22nd Mass 166
        28th Mass 217
        29th Mass 380
        32nd Mass 315
        35th Mass 750
        1st Mich 152
        4th Mich 288
        7th Mich 402
        8th Mich 435
        16th Mich 122
        17th Mich 525
        1st Minn 477
        1st NJ 308
        2nd NJ 283
        3rd NJ 291
        4th NJ 331
        13th NJ 630
        5th NH 319
        6th NH 157
        9th NH 710
        5th NY 208
        7th NY 322
        9th NY 375
        10th NY 315
        12th NY 159
        13th NY 160
        14th NY 300
        16th NY 343
        17th NY 124
        18th NY 292
        20th NY 680
        21st NY 150
        22nd/24th NY 121
        23rd NY 259
        25th NY 153
        26th NY 211
        27th NY 311
        28th NY/46th Penn 220
        30th/84th NY 128
        31st NY 319
        32nd NY 317
        33rd NY 380
        34th NY 311
        35th NY 252
        42nd NY 345
        43rd NY 390
        44th NY 120
        46th NY 278
        49th NY 268
        51st NY 338
        52nd NY 120
        57th NY 309
        59th NY 381
        60th NY 226
        61st NY 121
        62nd NY 318
        63rd NY 341
        64th NY 233
        65th NY 323
        66th NY 303
        67th NY 259
        69th NY 317
        77th NY 177
        78th NY 221
        79th NY 193
        80th NY 150
        82nd NY 339
        83rd NY 288
        88th NY 302
        89th NY 368
        94th NY 235
        97th NY 203
        102nd NY 163
        103rd NY 202
        104th NY 282
        105th NY 298
        107th NY 850
        108th NY 750
        122nd NY 617
        8th Ohio 341
        5th Ohio 161
        7th Ohio 120
        11th Ohio 430
        12th Ohio 200
        23rd Ohio 360
        28th Ohio 719
        30th Ohio 342
        36th Ohio 739
        66th Ohio 122
        1st Penn Res 225
        2nd Penn Res 223
        3rd Penn Res 211
        4th Penn Res 281
        5th Penn Res 241
        6th Penn Res 314
        7th Penn Res 285
        8th Penn Res 253
        9th Penn Res 264
        10th Penn Res 160
        11th Penn Res 179
        12th Penn Res 220
        13th Penn Res 275
        23rd Penn 284
        28th Penn 650
        45th Penn 560
        48th Penn 390
        49th Penn 317
        50th Penn 370
        51st Penn 333
        61st Penn 307
        62nd Penn 435
        69th Penn 486
        71st Penn 470
        72nd Penn 601
        81st Penn 319
        82nd Penn+F188 298
        83rd Penn 123
        93rd Penn 299
        95th Penn 339
        96th Penn 304
        98th Penn 317
        100th Penn 356
        102nd Penn 360
        106th Penn 462
        107th Penn 190
        111th Penn 253
        118th Penn 737
        124th Penn 655
        125th Penn 689
        128th Penn 650
        130th Penn 690
        132nd Penn 750
        137th Penn 681
        139th Penn 649
        2nd RI 265
        4th RI 247
        2nd Ver 307
        3rd Ver 322
        4th Ver 372
        5th Ver 366
        6th Ver 402
        2nd Wisc 172
        3rd Wisc 340
        5th Wisc 397
        6th Wisc 314
        7th Wisc 190
        1st US 182
        2nd/10th US 402
        3rd US 197
        4th US 318
        11th US 249
        1st Bn 12th US 155
        2nd Bn 12th US 128
        1st Bn 14th US 310
        2nd Bn 14th US 331
        17th US 309
        Purnell Leg 204

        total 63056
        average 339.0107527
      • G E Mayers
        Bryn, This is much more than the original question asked for! LOL. Where did you get the numbers? Carman? Dyer s Compendium? Another source? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 29, 2008
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          Bryn,

          This is much more than the original question asked for! LOL.

          Where did you get the numbers? Carman? Dyer's Compendium? Another
          source?

          Yr. Obt. Svt.
          G E "Gerry" Mayers

          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Bryn Monnery" <littlegreenmen.geo@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 1:40 PM
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Help with numbers present in several
          Union regiments


          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Rob & Patti Erickson"
          <pattirobpatti@...> wrote:
          >
          > Esteemed members, I am looking for information about the
          > number of
          > men "Present for Duty, Equipped" for the following Union
          > regiments at
          > Antietam:

          All PFD (including detachments, on average deduct 1/3rd to get
          the
          number of combatants)

          Rgt PFD
          8th Conn 375
          11th Conn 430
          14th Conn 751
          16th Conn 739
          1st Del 708
          2nd Del 310
          3rd Del 126
          7th Ind 220
          14th Ind 320
          19th Ind 268
          27th Ind 409
          2nd Maine 173
          5th Maine 299
          6th Maine 329
          7th Maine 181
          10th Maine 297
          20th Maine 788
          5th Maryland 550
          2nd Mass/Zouaves Afrique 488
          7th Mass 301
          9th Mass/2nd DC 379
          10th Mass 352
          12th Mass 334
          13th Mass 301
          15th Mass 606
          18th Mass 282
          19th Mass 418
          20th Mass 400
          21st Mass 158
          22nd Mass 166
          28th Mass 217
          29th Mass 380
          32nd Mass 315
          35th Mass 750
          1st Mich 152
          4th Mich 288
          7th Mich 402
          8th Mich 435
          16th Mich 122
          17th Mich 525
          1st Minn 477
          1st NJ 308
          2nd NJ 283
          3rd NJ 291
          4th NJ 331
          13th NJ 630
          5th NH 319
          6th NH 157
          9th NH 710
          5th NY 208
          7th NY 322
          9th NY 375
          10th NY 315
          12th NY 159
          13th NY 160
          14th NY 300
          16th NY 343
          17th NY 124
          18th NY 292
          20th NY 680
          21st NY 150
          22nd/24th NY 121
          23rd NY 259
          25th NY 153
          26th NY 211
          27th NY 311
          28th NY/46th Penn 220
          30th/84th NY 128
          31st NY 319
          32nd NY 317
          33rd NY 380
          34th NY 311
          35th NY 252
          42nd NY 345
          43rd NY 390
          44th NY 120
          46th NY 278
          49th NY 268
          51st NY 338
          52nd NY 120
          57th NY 309
          59th NY 381
          60th NY 226
          61st NY 121
          62nd NY 318
          63rd NY 341
          64th NY 233
          65th NY 323
          66th NY 303
          67th NY 259
          69th NY 317
          77th NY 177
          78th NY 221
          79th NY 193
          80th NY 150
          82nd NY 339
          83rd NY 288
          88th NY 302
          89th NY 368
          94th NY 235
          97th NY 203
          102nd NY 163
          103rd NY 202
          104th NY 282
          105th NY 298
          107th NY 850
          108th NY 750
          122nd NY 617
          8th Ohio 341
          5th Ohio 161
          7th Ohio 120
          11th Ohio 430
          12th Ohio 200
          23rd Ohio 360
          28th Ohio 719
          30th Ohio 342
          36th Ohio 739
          66th Ohio 122
          1st Penn Res 225
          2nd Penn Res 223
          3rd Penn Res 211
          4th Penn Res 281
          5th Penn Res 241
          6th Penn Res 314
          7th Penn Res 285
          8th Penn Res 253
          9th Penn Res 264
          10th Penn Res 160
          11th Penn Res 179
          12th Penn Res 220
          13th Penn Res 275
          23rd Penn 284
          28th Penn 650
          45th Penn 560
          48th Penn 390
          49th Penn 317
          50th Penn 370
          51st Penn 333
          61st Penn 307
          62nd Penn 435
          69th Penn 486
          71st Penn 470
          72nd Penn 601
          81st Penn 319
          82nd Penn+F188 298
          83rd Penn 123
          93rd Penn 299
          95th Penn 339
          96th Penn 304
          98th Penn 317
          100th Penn 356
          102nd Penn 360
          106th Penn 462
          107th Penn 190
          111th Penn 253
          118th Penn 737
          124th Penn 655
          125th Penn 689
          128th Penn 650
          130th Penn 690
          132nd Penn 750
          137th Penn 681
          139th Penn 649
          2nd RI 265
          4th RI 247
          2nd Ver 307
          3rd Ver 322
          4th Ver 372
          5th Ver 366
          6th Ver 402
          2nd Wisc 172
          3rd Wisc 340
          5th Wisc 397
          6th Wisc 314
          7th Wisc 190
          1st US 182
          2nd/10th US 402
          3rd US 197
          4th US 318
          11th US 249
          1st Bn 12th US 155
          2nd Bn 12th US 128
          1st Bn 14th US 310
          2nd Bn 14th US 331
          17th US 309
          Purnell Leg 204

          total 63056
          average 339.0107527
        • G E Mayers
          Dear Dean, Does the park use Carman as a basis for the numbers? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 29, 2008
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            Dear Dean,

            Does the park use Carman as a basis for the numbers?

            Yr. Obt. Svt.
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Rob & Patti Erickson" <pattirobpatti@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 1:27 PM
            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Help with numbers present in several
            Union regiments


            Dean, wow, thanks for the quick reply and the info. Rob


            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Dean Essig <d.essig@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Hi Rob!
            >
            > Here's the best I have...
            >
            > On Oct 29, 2008, at 11:38 AM, Rob & Patti Erickson wrote:
            >
            > > Esteemed members, I am looking for information about the
            > > number of
            > > men "Present for Duty, Equipped" for the following Union
            regiments at
            > > Antietam:
            > >
            > > 5th Maryland (II Corps, 3rd Division, 3rd/Weber's Brigade)
            > >
            >
            >
            > > ...550... park records.
            > >
            > > 124th Pennsylvania (XII Corps, 1st Dv., 1st Bde.)
            > >
            >
            > > ...670... park records.
            > >
            > > 125th PA (ditto)
            > >
            > > 128th PA (ditto)
            > >
            >
            > ... the park listing has 670 for all three. Best guess,
            > probably.
            > >
            > >
            > > Gilmore's WV Cavalry Company (Kanawha Division)
            > >
            > > Harrison's WV Cavalry Company (ditto)
            > >
            >
            >
            > > ...I have 50 men for both of those, but it is my own best
            > > guess.
            > >
            > > Schambach's IL Cavalry (ditto)
            > >
            >
            >
            > > ...67... http://www.lib.niu.edu/1999/ihwt9916.html
            > >
            >
            > >
            > > 3rd Independant Company, Ohio Cavalry (ditto)
            > >
            >
            >
            > > ... I don't have info on them.
            > >
            > > 1st U. S. Cavalr
            > >
            >
            > ... Same as above.
            >
            > Hope that helps!
            >
            > Dean
            > >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Dean Essig
            ... As far as I ve been able to tell, yes. They hired a grad student some time ago to create a file for each regiment in Ted Alexander s office. Most all the
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 29, 2008
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              On Oct 29, 2008, at 4:07 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

              > Does the park use Carman as a basis for the numbers?

              As far as I've been able to tell, yes.

              They hired a grad student some time ago to create a file for each
              regiment in Ted Alexander's office. Most all the numbers agree with
              Carmen, there are a few typos (quite possibly my own when I
              transposed them for my records) and some of the numbers in unengaged
              units look a little too perfect to be right. For example, I have a
              hard time believing all the regiments in First Division 6th Corps
              have exactly 400 men, as do the first two brigades of second division.





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Rob & Patti Erickson
              Bryn, thanks for all the info. What source(s) did you use? BTW, what is F188 that you included with the 82nd PA? Thanks, Rob
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 29, 2008
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                Bryn, thanks for all the info. What source(s) did you use?

                BTW, what is "F188" that you included with the 82nd PA?

                Thanks, Rob

                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Bryn Monnery"
                <littlegreenmen.geo@...> wrote:
                >

                > 82nd Penn+F188 298
              • Bryn Monnery
                ... The Sid Meier game, which itself sourced Carman. I ve verified several regimental strengths and it seems to be okay, certainly to best I ve found. Antietam
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 1, 2008
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                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Rob & Patti Erickson"
                  <pattirobpatti@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Bryn, thanks for all the info. What source(s) did you use?

                  The Sid Meier game, which itself sourced Carman. I've verified several
                  regimental strengths and it seems to be okay, certainly to best I've
                  found.

                  Antietam is one of those battles I've had real problems ascertaining
                  actual combat strengths, and I'm still looking for better.

                  > BTW, what is "F188" that you included with the 82nd PA?

                  Spreadsheet error. I think the list in Bde/Div/Corps order was in cell
                  F188 and I made a mistake copying and pasting.

                  > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Bryn Monnery"
                  > <littlegreenmen.geo@> wrote:
                  > >
                  >
                  > > 82nd Penn+F188 298
                  >
                • G E Mayers
                  Bryn, Trying to determine actual present for field duty strengths for almost any battle of the War has been a most challenging task. Antietam is particularly
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 1, 2008
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                    Bryn,

                    Trying to determine actual present for field duty strengths for
                    almost any battle of the War has been a most challenging task.
                    Antietam is particularly challenging due to the lack of more
                    complete Confederate records.

                    Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    G E "Gerry" Mayers

                    To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                    the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Bryn Monnery" <littlegreenmen.geo@...>
                    To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 7:49 AM
                    Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Help with numbers present in several
                    Union regiments


                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Rob & Patti Erickson"
                    <pattirobpatti@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Bryn, thanks for all the info. What source(s) did you use?

                    The Sid Meier game, which itself sourced Carman. I've verified
                    several
                    regimental strengths and it seems to be okay, certainly to best
                    I've
                    found.

                    Antietam is one of those battles I've had real problems
                    ascertaining
                    actual combat strengths, and I'm still looking for better.

                    > BTW, what is "F188" that you included with the 82nd PA?

                    Spreadsheet error. I think the list in Bde/Div/Corps order was in
                    cell
                    F188 and I made a mistake copying and pasting.

                    > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Bryn Monnery"
                    > <littlegreenmen.geo@> wrote:
                    > >
                    >
                    > > 82nd Penn+F188 298
                    >
                  • Bryn Monnery
                    The different measures of strength (P, PFD, PFDE, Effectives etc.) are also problematic. For the Confederates in one way it s easier. They tended to use
                    Message 9 of 11 , Nov 1, 2008
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                      The different measures of strength (P, PFD, PFDE, Effectives etc.) are
                      also problematic.

                      For the Confederates in one way it's easier. They tended to use
                      effectives or muskets, and so we can have a good idea the bayonet
                      strength where this data is available.

                      The Union tended to include detachments in their regimental PFD
                      reports, so Union strength tends to be overstated. A vast quantity of
                      information about the 91st PA is online
                      (http://freepages.military.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~pa91/cbant.html )
                      and worth a look. Unfortunately, the database of Morning States starts
                      in Feb 63.

                      However, deducting 1/3rd of the PFD is a fair indicator of actual
                      combatants in this period. When Sherman later took over the Army of
                      the Cumberland he noted that fully half the army were non-combatants.

                      Taking Harsh's figures, at Antietam it looks like 30,000 odd CS
                      infantry squared up against 40,000 US infantry, but the figures are
                      highly debatable.

                      > Bryn,
                      >
                      > Trying to determine actual present for field duty strengths for
                      > almost any battle of the War has been a most challenging task.
                      > Antietam is particularly challenging due to the lack of more
                      > complete Confederate records.
                      >
                      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                      >
                      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                      > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                      > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                      > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "Bryn Monnery" <littlegreenmen.geo@...>
                      > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2008 7:49 AM
                      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Help with numbers present in several
                      > Union regiments
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Rob & Patti Erickson"
                      > <pattirobpatti@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Bryn, thanks for all the info. What source(s) did you use?
                      >
                      > The Sid Meier game, which itself sourced Carman. I've verified
                      > several
                      > regimental strengths and it seems to be okay, certainly to best
                      > I've
                      > found.
                      >
                      > Antietam is one of those battles I've had real problems
                      > ascertaining
                      > actual combat strengths, and I'm still looking for better.
                      >
                      > > BTW, what is "F188" that you included with the 82nd PA?
                      >
                      > Spreadsheet error. I think the list in Bde/Div/Corps order was in
                      > cell
                      > F188 and I made a mistake copying and pasting.
                      >
                      > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Bryn Monnery"
                      > > <littlegreenmen.geo@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > > 82nd Penn+F188 298
                      > >
                      >
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