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Re: [TalkAntietam] Sept 18 Truce

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  • Thomas Clemens
    No offical truces. To ask for one would be seen as an admission of being beaten. Lee didn t want to do that. Same thing ahppened with Grant after the
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 6, 2008
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      No offical truces. To ask for one would be seen as an admission of being beaten. Lee didn't want to do that. Same thing ahppened with Grant after the debacle at Cold Harbor.


      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      Professor of History
      Hagerstown Community College


      >>> Dave <gewehr@...> 10/06/08 5:08 PM >>>
      Thanks for all the responses to my questions about tactical movements.
      I will get Carman and just keep studying the maps.

      Thanks also to Brian for the Shepherdstown ford pictures and research.
      Excellent work.

      On the topic of O. Norton, I was reading one of his letters home where
      he said the truce of the 18th allowed the ANV time to pack up and
      prepare to escape. I also read this charge in another letter
      (soldierstudies.org). Harsh states that there was no official truce.
      Hancock writes in the OR that there was an unofficial truce made between
      the pickets that allowed some retrieval (presumably on both sides) and
      that Hancock had himself rejected a truce flag, and had even fired on
      and captured some ANV under a truce flag.

      Why would a truce be rejected? Were there any official truces at all on
      any parts of the field?

      Dave
    • G E Mayers
      Dear Tom, Then how did that famous incident behind the Dunkerd Church happen? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage,
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 6, 2008
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        Dear Tom,

        Then how did that famous incident behind the Dunkerd Church
        happen?

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 11:25 PM
        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Sept 18 Truce


        No offical truces. To ask for one would be seen as an admission
        of being beaten. Lee didn't want to do that. Same thing
        ahppened with Grant after the debacle at Cold Harbor.


        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        Professor of History
        Hagerstown Community College


        >>> Dave <gewehr@...> 10/06/08 5:08 PM >>>
        Thanks for all the responses to my questions about tactical
        movements.
        I will get Carman and just keep studying the maps.

        Thanks also to Brian for the Shepherdstown ford pictures and
        research.
        Excellent work.

        On the topic of O. Norton, I was reading one of his letters home
        where
        he said the truce of the 18th allowed the ANV time to pack up and
        prepare to escape. I also read this charge in another letter
        (soldierstudies.org). Harsh states that there was no official
        truce.
        Hancock writes in the OR that there was an unofficial truce made
        between
        the pickets that allowed some retrieval (presumably on both
        sides) and
        that Hancock had himself rejected a truce flag, and had even
        fired on
        and captured some ANV under a truce flag.

        Why would a truce be rejected? Were there any official truces at
        all on
        any parts of the field?

        Dave
      • Thomas Clemens
        Um, unofficially, of course. Dr. Thomas G. Clemens Professor of History Hagerstown Community College ... Dear Tom, Then how did that famous incident behind the
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 7, 2008
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          Um, unofficially, of course.


          Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
          Professor of History
          Hagerstown Community College




          >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 10/6/2008 10:32 PM >>>

          Dear Tom,

          Then how did that famous incident behind the Dunkerd Church
          happen?

          Yr. Obt. Svt.
          G E "Gerry" Mayers

          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 11:25 PM
          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Sept 18 Truce

          No offical truces. To ask for one would be seen as an admission
          of being beaten. Lee didn't want to do that. Same thing
          ahppened with Grant after the debacle at Cold Harbor.

          Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          Professor of History
          Hagerstown Community College

          >>> Dave <gewehr@...> 10/06/08 5:08 PM >>>
          Thanks for all the responses to my questions about tactical
          movements.
          I will get Carman and just keep studying the maps.

          Thanks also to Brian for the Shepherdstown ford pictures and
          research.
          Excellent work.

          On the topic of O. Norton, I was reading one of his letters home
          where
          he said the truce of the 18th allowed the ANV time to pack up and
          prepare to escape. I also read this charge in another letter
          (soldierstudies.org). Harsh states that there was no official
          truce.
          Hancock writes in the OR that there was an unofficial truce made
          between
          the pickets that allowed some retrieval (presumably on both
          sides) and
          that Hancock had himself rejected a truce flag, and had even
          fired on
          and captured some ANV under a truce flag.

          Why would a truce be rejected? Were there any official truces at
          all on
          any parts of the field?

          Dave




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • G E Mayers
          Then that makes it all the more amazing.................that it was unofficially proposed and was actually carried out... Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 7, 2008
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            Then that makes it all the more amazing.................that it
            was "unofficially" proposed and was actually carried out...

            Yr. Obt. Svt.
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 8:50 AM
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Sept 18 Truce


            > Um, unofficially, of course.
            >
            >
            > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
            > Professor of History
            > Hagerstown Community College
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >>>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 10/6/2008 10:32 PM >>>
            >
            > Dear Tom,
            >
            > Then how did that famous incident behind the Dunkerd Church
            > happen?
            >
            > Yr. Obt. Svt.
            > G E "Gerry" Mayers
            >
            > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
            > from
            > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
            > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 11:25 PM
            > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Sept 18 Truce
            >
            > No offical truces. To ask for one would be seen as an admission
            > of being beaten. Lee didn't want to do that. Same thing
            > ahppened with Grant after the debacle at Cold Harbor.
            >
            > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            > Professor of History
            > Hagerstown Community College
            >
            >>>> Dave <gewehr@...> 10/06/08 5:08 PM >>>
            > Thanks for all the responses to my questions about tactical
            > movements.
            > I will get Carman and just keep studying the maps.
            >
            > Thanks also to Brian for the Shepherdstown ford pictures and
            > research.
            > Excellent work.
            >
            > On the topic of O. Norton, I was reading one of his letters
            > home
            > where
            > he said the truce of the 18th allowed the ANV time to pack up
            > and
            > prepare to escape. I also read this charge in another letter
            > (soldierstudies.org). Harsh states that there was no official
            > truce.
            > Hancock writes in the OR that there was an unofficial truce
            > made
            > between
            > the pickets that allowed some retrieval (presumably on both
            > sides) and
            > that Hancock had himself rejected a truce flag, and had even
            > fired on
            > and captured some ANV under a truce flag.
            >
            > Why would a truce be rejected? Were there any official truces
            > at
            > all on
            > any parts of the field?
            >
            > Dave
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
          • Thomas Clemens
            I d argue not proposed, it just happened. Front line commanders allowed this at times for a variety of reasons, but for an army to commander to ask his
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 7, 2008
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              I'd argue not proposed, it just happened. Front line commanders allowed this at times for a variety of reasons, but for an army to commander to ask his opposing commander for a truce was taken as a sign of defeat. Lee didn't ask McClellan, it just happened in a few isolated spots.
              On the other hand, a number people got shot on the 18th a active skirmishing continued in some spots.


              Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
              Professor of History
              Hagerstown Community College




              >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 10/7/2008 7:56 AM >>>

              Then that makes it all the more amazing.................that it
              was "unofficially" proposed and was actually carried out...

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 8:50 AM
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Sept 18 Truce

              > Um, unofficially, of course.
              >
              >
              > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
              > Professor of History
              > Hagerstown Community College
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >>>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 10/6/2008 10:32 PM >>>
              >
              > Dear Tom,
              >
              > Then how did that famous incident behind the Dunkerd Church
              > happen?
              >
              > Yr. Obt. Svt.
              > G E "Gerry" Mayers
              >
              > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
              > from
              > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
              > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 11:25 PM
              > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Sept 18 Truce
              >
              > No offical truces. To ask for one would be seen as an admission
              > of being beaten. Lee didn't want to do that. Same thing
              > ahppened with Grant after the debacle at Cold Harbor.
              >
              > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              > Professor of History
              > Hagerstown Community College
              >
              >>>> Dave <gewehr@...> 10/06/08 5:08 PM >>>
              > Thanks for all the responses to my questions about tactical
              > movements.
              > I will get Carman and just keep studying the maps.
              >
              > Thanks also to Brian for the Shepherdstown ford pictures and
              > research.
              > Excellent work.
              >
              > On the topic of O. Norton, I was reading one of his letters
              > home
              > where
              > he said the truce of the 18th allowed the ANV time to pack up
              > and
              > prepare to escape. I also read this charge in another letter
              > (soldierstudies.org). Harsh states that there was no official
              > truce.
              > Hancock writes in the OR that there was an unofficial truce
              > made
              > between
              > the pickets that allowed some retrieval (presumably on both
              > sides) and
              > that Hancock had himself rejected a truce flag, and had even
              > fired on
              > and captured some ANV under a truce flag.
              >
              > Why would a truce be rejected? Were there any official truces
              > at
              > all on
              > any parts of the field?
              >
              > Dave
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Dave
              But Tom, Hancock wrote that the ANV attempted what sounds like a fairly ... I am assuming someone higher up sent Genl. Pryor to meet with the AOP? Or would
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 7, 2008
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                But Tom, Hancock wrote that the ANV attempted what sounds like a fairly
                organized truce attempt:

                > General Pryor had previously stated that he had no doubt a
                > communication from us to the commanding general of the enemy's forces
                > would result in a satisfactory arrangement. General Pryor stating that
                > he had no authority to send such communication as indicated, on my
                > part the conference closed. Subsequently it was reported to me that
                > another flag had appeared. Again General Meagher was sent to meet the
                > bearer, who proved to be a lieutenant- colonel in the rebel service,
                > who stated that the flag was intended to cover the operations of
                > collecting the wounded and burying the dead, it being supposed that a
                > truce existed by an arrangement which had been made on our night. The
                > officer was notified that it was an error, and in a few minutes
                > hostilities recommenced. (XIX/1: 281-282)

                I am assuming someone higher up sent Genl. Pryor to meet with the AOP?
                Or would this still be considered a local, unauthorized action? Or was
                he just testing the waters? Captain Cowan of the 1st NY battery also
                states in the OR that a "...flag of truce prevented further action."
                Maybe the unofficial truces were more widespread than some think?

                Dave


                Thomas Clemens wrote:
                >
                > No offical truces. To ask for one would be seen as an admission of
                > being beaten. Lee didn't want to do that. Same thing ahppened with
                > Grant after the debacle at Cold Harbor.
                >
                > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                > Professor of History
                > Hagerstown Community College
                >
                > >>> Dave <gewehr@... <mailto:gewehr%40cinci.rr.com>> 10/06/08
                > 5:08 PM >>>
                > Thanks for all the responses to my questions about tactical movements.
                > I will get Carman and just keep studying the maps.
                >
                > Thanks also to Brian for the Shepherdstown ford pictures and research.
                > Excellent work.
                >
                > On the topic of O. Norton, I was reading one of his letters home where
                > he said the truce of the 18th allowed the ANV time to pack up and
                > prepare to escape. I also read this charge in another letter
                > (soldierstudies.org). Harsh states that there was no official truce.
                > Hancock writes in the OR that there was an unofficial truce made between
                > the pickets that allowed some retrieval (presumably on both sides) and
                > that Hancock had himself rejected a truce flag, and had even fired on
                > and captured some ANV under a truce flag.
                >
                > Why would a truce be rejected? Were there any official truces at all on
                > any parts of the field?
                >
                > Dave
                >
                >
              • Thomas Clemens
                I know of no authority for Pryor to offer such a truce, and knowing Pryor, as a politician, not a professional soldier, he may have acted in ignorance. At
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 7, 2008
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                  I know of no authority for Pryor to offer such a truce, and knowing Pryor, as a politician, not a professional soldier, he may have acted in ignorance. At that time he was the senior officer in Anderson's Division and had assumed command, but if he had any authority for his act, it is not, to the best of my knowledge, published. I have never heard of read of Lee seeking or authorizing, or even desiring a truce.

                  Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                  Professor of History
                  Hagerstown Community College




                  >>> Dave <gewehr@...> 10/7/2008 3:12 PM >>>

                  But Tom, Hancock wrote that the ANV attempted what sounds like a fairly
                  organized truce attempt:

                  > General Pryor had previously stated that he had no doubt a
                  > communication from us to the commanding general of the enemy's forces
                  > would result in a satisfactory arrangement. General Pryor stating that
                  > he had no authority to send such communication as indicated, on my
                  > part the conference closed. Subsequently it was reported to me that
                  > another flag had appeared. Again General Meagher was sent to meet the
                  > bearer, who proved to be a lieutenant- colonel in the rebel service,
                  > who stated that the flag was intended to cover the operations of
                  > collecting the wounded and burying the dead, it being supposed that a
                  > truce existed by an arrangement which had been made on our night. The
                  > officer was notified that it was an error, and in a few minutes
                  > hostilities recommenced. (XIX/1: 281-282)

                  I am assuming someone higher up sent Genl. Pryor to meet with the AOP?
                  Or would this still be considered a local, unauthorized action? Or was
                  he just testing the waters? Captain Cowan of the 1st NY battery also
                  states in the OR that a "...flag of truce prevented further action."
                  Maybe the unofficial truces were more widespread than some think?

                  Dave

                  Thomas Clemens wrote:
                  >
                  > No offical truces. To ask for one would be seen as an admission of
                  > being beaten. Lee didn't want to do that. Same thing ahppened with
                  > Grant after the debacle at Cold Harbor.
                  >
                  > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  > Professor of History
                  > Hagerstown Community College
                  >
                  > >>> Dave <gewehr@... <mailto:gewehr%40cinci.rr.com>> 10/06/08
                  > 5:08 PM >>>
                  > Thanks for all the responses to my questions about tactical movements.
                  > I will get Carman and just keep studying the maps.
                  >
                  > Thanks also to Brian for the Shepherdstown ford pictures and research.
                  > Excellent work.
                  >
                  > On the topic of O. Norton, I was reading one of his letters home where
                  > he said the truce of the 18th allowed the ANV time to pack up and
                  > prepare to escape. I also read this charge in another letter
                  > (soldierstudies.org). Harsh states that there was no official truce.
                  > Hancock writes in the OR that there was an unofficial truce made between
                  > the pickets that allowed some retrieval (presumably on both sides) and
                  > that Hancock had himself rejected a truce flag, and had even fired on
                  > and captured some ANV under a truce flag.
                  >
                  > Why would a truce be rejected? Were there any official truces at all on
                  > any parts of the field?
                  >
                  > Dave
                  >
                  >




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Stephen Recker
                  Sad news. I heard that Earl Roulette passed on October 9th. Prayers for him and his family. Stephen Recker
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 28, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Sad news. I heard that Earl Roulette passed on October 9th. Prayers for
                    him and his family.

                    Stephen Recker
                  • Thomas Clemens
                    Yes, the obit was in the paper a couple weeks ago, meant to mention it to you. He really was a character. I wonder what will become of his collection?
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 28, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Yes, the obit was in the paper a couple weeks ago, meant to mention it to you. He really was a character. I wonder what will become of his collection?



                      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      Professor of History
                      Hagerstown Community College


                      >>> Stephen Recker <recker@...> 10/28/08 9:27 PM >>>
                      Sad news. I heard that Earl Roulette passed on October 9th. Prayers for
                      him and his family.

                      Stephen Recker
                    • RoteBaron@comcast.net
                      Mannie Gentile posted Mr. Roulette s photo and obit on his blog at:
                      Message 10 of 11 , Oct 29, 2008
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                        Mannie Gentile posted Mr. Roulette's photo and obit on his blog at:

                        http://volunteersinparks.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2008-10-12T20%3A14%3A00-04%3A00&max-results=5

                        Tom Shay

                        -------------- Original message --------------
                        From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                        Yes, the obit was in the paper a couple weeks ago, meant to mention it to you. He really was a character. I wonder what will become of his collection?

                        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                        Professor of History
                        Hagerstown Community College

                        >>> Stephen Recker <recker@...> 10/28/08 9:27 PM >>>
                        Sad news. I heard that Earl Roulette passed on October 9th. Prayers for
                        him and his family.

                        Stephen Recker




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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