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Sept 18 Truce

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  • Dave
    Thanks for all the responses to my questions about tactical movements. I will get Carman and just keep studying the maps. Thanks also to Brian for the
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 6, 2008
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      Thanks for all the responses to my questions about tactical movements.
      I will get Carman and just keep studying the maps.

      Thanks also to Brian for the Shepherdstown ford pictures and research.
      Excellent work.

      On the topic of O. Norton, I was reading one of his letters home where
      he said the truce of the 18th allowed the ANV time to pack up and
      prepare to escape. I also read this charge in another letter
      (soldierstudies.org). Harsh states that there was no official truce.
      Hancock writes in the OR that there was an unofficial truce made between
      the pickets that allowed some retrieval (presumably on both sides) and
      that Hancock had himself rejected a truce flag, and had even fired on
      and captured some ANV under a truce flag.

      Why would a truce be rejected? Were there any official truces at all on
      any parts of the field?

      Dave
    • Thomas Clemens
      No offical truces. To ask for one would be seen as an admission of being beaten. Lee didn t want to do that. Same thing ahppened with Grant after the
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 6, 2008
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        No offical truces. To ask for one would be seen as an admission of being beaten. Lee didn't want to do that. Same thing ahppened with Grant after the debacle at Cold Harbor.


        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        Professor of History
        Hagerstown Community College


        >>> Dave <gewehr@...> 10/06/08 5:08 PM >>>
        Thanks for all the responses to my questions about tactical movements.
        I will get Carman and just keep studying the maps.

        Thanks also to Brian for the Shepherdstown ford pictures and research.
        Excellent work.

        On the topic of O. Norton, I was reading one of his letters home where
        he said the truce of the 18th allowed the ANV time to pack up and
        prepare to escape. I also read this charge in another letter
        (soldierstudies.org). Harsh states that there was no official truce.
        Hancock writes in the OR that there was an unofficial truce made between
        the pickets that allowed some retrieval (presumably on both sides) and
        that Hancock had himself rejected a truce flag, and had even fired on
        and captured some ANV under a truce flag.

        Why would a truce be rejected? Were there any official truces at all on
        any parts of the field?

        Dave
      • G E Mayers
        Dear Tom, Then how did that famous incident behind the Dunkerd Church happen? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage,
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 6, 2008
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          Dear Tom,

          Then how did that famous incident behind the Dunkerd Church
          happen?

          Yr. Obt. Svt.
          G E "Gerry" Mayers

          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 11:25 PM
          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Sept 18 Truce


          No offical truces. To ask for one would be seen as an admission
          of being beaten. Lee didn't want to do that. Same thing
          ahppened with Grant after the debacle at Cold Harbor.


          Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          Professor of History
          Hagerstown Community College


          >>> Dave <gewehr@...> 10/06/08 5:08 PM >>>
          Thanks for all the responses to my questions about tactical
          movements.
          I will get Carman and just keep studying the maps.

          Thanks also to Brian for the Shepherdstown ford pictures and
          research.
          Excellent work.

          On the topic of O. Norton, I was reading one of his letters home
          where
          he said the truce of the 18th allowed the ANV time to pack up and
          prepare to escape. I also read this charge in another letter
          (soldierstudies.org). Harsh states that there was no official
          truce.
          Hancock writes in the OR that there was an unofficial truce made
          between
          the pickets that allowed some retrieval (presumably on both
          sides) and
          that Hancock had himself rejected a truce flag, and had even
          fired on
          and captured some ANV under a truce flag.

          Why would a truce be rejected? Were there any official truces at
          all on
          any parts of the field?

          Dave
        • Thomas Clemens
          Um, unofficially, of course. Dr. Thomas G. Clemens Professor of History Hagerstown Community College ... Dear Tom, Then how did that famous incident behind the
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 7, 2008
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            Um, unofficially, of course.


            Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
            Professor of History
            Hagerstown Community College




            >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 10/6/2008 10:32 PM >>>

            Dear Tom,

            Then how did that famous incident behind the Dunkerd Church
            happen?

            Yr. Obt. Svt.
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 11:25 PM
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Sept 18 Truce

            No offical truces. To ask for one would be seen as an admission
            of being beaten. Lee didn't want to do that. Same thing
            ahppened with Grant after the debacle at Cold Harbor.

            Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            Professor of History
            Hagerstown Community College

            >>> Dave <gewehr@...> 10/06/08 5:08 PM >>>
            Thanks for all the responses to my questions about tactical
            movements.
            I will get Carman and just keep studying the maps.

            Thanks also to Brian for the Shepherdstown ford pictures and
            research.
            Excellent work.

            On the topic of O. Norton, I was reading one of his letters home
            where
            he said the truce of the 18th allowed the ANV time to pack up and
            prepare to escape. I also read this charge in another letter
            (soldierstudies.org). Harsh states that there was no official
            truce.
            Hancock writes in the OR that there was an unofficial truce made
            between
            the pickets that allowed some retrieval (presumably on both
            sides) and
            that Hancock had himself rejected a truce flag, and had even
            fired on
            and captured some ANV under a truce flag.

            Why would a truce be rejected? Were there any official truces at
            all on
            any parts of the field?

            Dave




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • G E Mayers
            Then that makes it all the more amazing.................that it was unofficially proposed and was actually carried out... Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 7, 2008
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              Then that makes it all the more amazing.................that it
              was "unofficially" proposed and was actually carried out...

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 8:50 AM
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Sept 18 Truce


              > Um, unofficially, of course.
              >
              >
              > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
              > Professor of History
              > Hagerstown Community College
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >>>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 10/6/2008 10:32 PM >>>
              >
              > Dear Tom,
              >
              > Then how did that famous incident behind the Dunkerd Church
              > happen?
              >
              > Yr. Obt. Svt.
              > G E "Gerry" Mayers
              >
              > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
              > from
              > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
              > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 11:25 PM
              > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Sept 18 Truce
              >
              > No offical truces. To ask for one would be seen as an admission
              > of being beaten. Lee didn't want to do that. Same thing
              > ahppened with Grant after the debacle at Cold Harbor.
              >
              > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              > Professor of History
              > Hagerstown Community College
              >
              >>>> Dave <gewehr@...> 10/06/08 5:08 PM >>>
              > Thanks for all the responses to my questions about tactical
              > movements.
              > I will get Carman and just keep studying the maps.
              >
              > Thanks also to Brian for the Shepherdstown ford pictures and
              > research.
              > Excellent work.
              >
              > On the topic of O. Norton, I was reading one of his letters
              > home
              > where
              > he said the truce of the 18th allowed the ANV time to pack up
              > and
              > prepare to escape. I also read this charge in another letter
              > (soldierstudies.org). Harsh states that there was no official
              > truce.
              > Hancock writes in the OR that there was an unofficial truce
              > made
              > between
              > the pickets that allowed some retrieval (presumably on both
              > sides) and
              > that Hancock had himself rejected a truce flag, and had even
              > fired on
              > and captured some ANV under a truce flag.
              >
              > Why would a truce be rejected? Were there any official truces
              > at
              > all on
              > any parts of the field?
              >
              > Dave
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
            • Thomas Clemens
              I d argue not proposed, it just happened. Front line commanders allowed this at times for a variety of reasons, but for an army to commander to ask his
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 7, 2008
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                I'd argue not proposed, it just happened. Front line commanders allowed this at times for a variety of reasons, but for an army to commander to ask his opposing commander for a truce was taken as a sign of defeat. Lee didn't ask McClellan, it just happened in a few isolated spots.
                On the other hand, a number people got shot on the 18th a active skirmishing continued in some spots.


                Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                Professor of History
                Hagerstown Community College




                >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 10/7/2008 7:56 AM >>>

                Then that makes it all the more amazing.................that it
                was "unofficially" proposed and was actually carried out...

                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 8:50 AM
                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Sept 18 Truce

                > Um, unofficially, of course.
                >
                >
                > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                > Professor of History
                > Hagerstown Community College
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> 10/6/2008 10:32 PM >>>
                >
                > Dear Tom,
                >
                > Then how did that famous incident behind the Dunkerd Church
                > happen?
                >
                > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                >
                > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                > from
                > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 11:25 PM
                > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Sept 18 Truce
                >
                > No offical truces. To ask for one would be seen as an admission
                > of being beaten. Lee didn't want to do that. Same thing
                > ahppened with Grant after the debacle at Cold Harbor.
                >
                > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                > Professor of History
                > Hagerstown Community College
                >
                >>>> Dave <gewehr@...> 10/06/08 5:08 PM >>>
                > Thanks for all the responses to my questions about tactical
                > movements.
                > I will get Carman and just keep studying the maps.
                >
                > Thanks also to Brian for the Shepherdstown ford pictures and
                > research.
                > Excellent work.
                >
                > On the topic of O. Norton, I was reading one of his letters
                > home
                > where
                > he said the truce of the 18th allowed the ANV time to pack up
                > and
                > prepare to escape. I also read this charge in another letter
                > (soldierstudies.org). Harsh states that there was no official
                > truce.
                > Hancock writes in the OR that there was an unofficial truce
                > made
                > between
                > the pickets that allowed some retrieval (presumably on both
                > sides) and
                > that Hancock had himself rejected a truce flag, and had even
                > fired on
                > and captured some ANV under a truce flag.
                >
                > Why would a truce be rejected? Were there any official truces
                > at
                > all on
                > any parts of the field?
                >
                > Dave
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Dave
                But Tom, Hancock wrote that the ANV attempted what sounds like a fairly ... I am assuming someone higher up sent Genl. Pryor to meet with the AOP? Or would
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 7, 2008
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                  But Tom, Hancock wrote that the ANV attempted what sounds like a fairly
                  organized truce attempt:

                  > General Pryor had previously stated that he had no doubt a
                  > communication from us to the commanding general of the enemy's forces
                  > would result in a satisfactory arrangement. General Pryor stating that
                  > he had no authority to send such communication as indicated, on my
                  > part the conference closed. Subsequently it was reported to me that
                  > another flag had appeared. Again General Meagher was sent to meet the
                  > bearer, who proved to be a lieutenant- colonel in the rebel service,
                  > who stated that the flag was intended to cover the operations of
                  > collecting the wounded and burying the dead, it being supposed that a
                  > truce existed by an arrangement which had been made on our night. The
                  > officer was notified that it was an error, and in a few minutes
                  > hostilities recommenced. (XIX/1: 281-282)

                  I am assuming someone higher up sent Genl. Pryor to meet with the AOP?
                  Or would this still be considered a local, unauthorized action? Or was
                  he just testing the waters? Captain Cowan of the 1st NY battery also
                  states in the OR that a "...flag of truce prevented further action."
                  Maybe the unofficial truces were more widespread than some think?

                  Dave


                  Thomas Clemens wrote:
                  >
                  > No offical truces. To ask for one would be seen as an admission of
                  > being beaten. Lee didn't want to do that. Same thing ahppened with
                  > Grant after the debacle at Cold Harbor.
                  >
                  > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  > Professor of History
                  > Hagerstown Community College
                  >
                  > >>> Dave <gewehr@... <mailto:gewehr%40cinci.rr.com>> 10/06/08
                  > 5:08 PM >>>
                  > Thanks for all the responses to my questions about tactical movements.
                  > I will get Carman and just keep studying the maps.
                  >
                  > Thanks also to Brian for the Shepherdstown ford pictures and research.
                  > Excellent work.
                  >
                  > On the topic of O. Norton, I was reading one of his letters home where
                  > he said the truce of the 18th allowed the ANV time to pack up and
                  > prepare to escape. I also read this charge in another letter
                  > (soldierstudies.org). Harsh states that there was no official truce.
                  > Hancock writes in the OR that there was an unofficial truce made between
                  > the pickets that allowed some retrieval (presumably on both sides) and
                  > that Hancock had himself rejected a truce flag, and had even fired on
                  > and captured some ANV under a truce flag.
                  >
                  > Why would a truce be rejected? Were there any official truces at all on
                  > any parts of the field?
                  >
                  > Dave
                  >
                  >
                • Thomas Clemens
                  I know of no authority for Pryor to offer such a truce, and knowing Pryor, as a politician, not a professional soldier, he may have acted in ignorance. At
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 7, 2008
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                    I know of no authority for Pryor to offer such a truce, and knowing Pryor, as a politician, not a professional soldier, he may have acted in ignorance. At that time he was the senior officer in Anderson's Division and had assumed command, but if he had any authority for his act, it is not, to the best of my knowledge, published. I have never heard of read of Lee seeking or authorizing, or even desiring a truce.

                    Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                    Professor of History
                    Hagerstown Community College




                    >>> Dave <gewehr@...> 10/7/2008 3:12 PM >>>

                    But Tom, Hancock wrote that the ANV attempted what sounds like a fairly
                    organized truce attempt:

                    > General Pryor had previously stated that he had no doubt a
                    > communication from us to the commanding general of the enemy's forces
                    > would result in a satisfactory arrangement. General Pryor stating that
                    > he had no authority to send such communication as indicated, on my
                    > part the conference closed. Subsequently it was reported to me that
                    > another flag had appeared. Again General Meagher was sent to meet the
                    > bearer, who proved to be a lieutenant- colonel in the rebel service,
                    > who stated that the flag was intended to cover the operations of
                    > collecting the wounded and burying the dead, it being supposed that a
                    > truce existed by an arrangement which had been made on our night. The
                    > officer was notified that it was an error, and in a few minutes
                    > hostilities recommenced. (XIX/1: 281-282)

                    I am assuming someone higher up sent Genl. Pryor to meet with the AOP?
                    Or would this still be considered a local, unauthorized action? Or was
                    he just testing the waters? Captain Cowan of the 1st NY battery also
                    states in the OR that a "...flag of truce prevented further action."
                    Maybe the unofficial truces were more widespread than some think?

                    Dave

                    Thomas Clemens wrote:
                    >
                    > No offical truces. To ask for one would be seen as an admission of
                    > being beaten. Lee didn't want to do that. Same thing ahppened with
                    > Grant after the debacle at Cold Harbor.
                    >
                    > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                    > Professor of History
                    > Hagerstown Community College
                    >
                    > >>> Dave <gewehr@... <mailto:gewehr%40cinci.rr.com>> 10/06/08
                    > 5:08 PM >>>
                    > Thanks for all the responses to my questions about tactical movements.
                    > I will get Carman and just keep studying the maps.
                    >
                    > Thanks also to Brian for the Shepherdstown ford pictures and research.
                    > Excellent work.
                    >
                    > On the topic of O. Norton, I was reading one of his letters home where
                    > he said the truce of the 18th allowed the ANV time to pack up and
                    > prepare to escape. I also read this charge in another letter
                    > (soldierstudies.org). Harsh states that there was no official truce.
                    > Hancock writes in the OR that there was an unofficial truce made between
                    > the pickets that allowed some retrieval (presumably on both sides) and
                    > that Hancock had himself rejected a truce flag, and had even fired on
                    > and captured some ANV under a truce flag.
                    >
                    > Why would a truce be rejected? Were there any official truces at all on
                    > any parts of the field?
                    >
                    > Dave
                    >
                    >




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Stephen Recker
                    Sad news. I heard that Earl Roulette passed on October 9th. Prayers for him and his family. Stephen Recker
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 28, 2008
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                      Sad news. I heard that Earl Roulette passed on October 9th. Prayers for
                      him and his family.

                      Stephen Recker
                    • Thomas Clemens
                      Yes, the obit was in the paper a couple weeks ago, meant to mention it to you. He really was a character. I wonder what will become of his collection?
                      Message 10 of 11 , Oct 28, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Yes, the obit was in the paper a couple weeks ago, meant to mention it to you. He really was a character. I wonder what will become of his collection?



                        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                        Professor of History
                        Hagerstown Community College


                        >>> Stephen Recker <recker@...> 10/28/08 9:27 PM >>>
                        Sad news. I heard that Earl Roulette passed on October 9th. Prayers for
                        him and his family.

                        Stephen Recker
                      • RoteBaron@comcast.net
                        Mannie Gentile posted Mr. Roulette s photo and obit on his blog at:
                        Message 11 of 11 , Oct 29, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Mannie Gentile posted Mr. Roulette's photo and obit on his blog at:

                          http://volunteersinparks.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2008-10-12T20%3A14%3A00-04%3A00&max-results=5

                          Tom Shay

                          -------------- Original message --------------
                          From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                          Yes, the obit was in the paper a couple weeks ago, meant to mention it to you. He really was a character. I wonder what will become of his collection?

                          Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                          Professor of History
                          Hagerstown Community College

                          >>> Stephen Recker <recker@...> 10/28/08 9:27 PM >>>
                          Sad news. I heard that Earl Roulette passed on October 9th. Prayers for
                          him and his family.

                          Stephen Recker




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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