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Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Carman

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  • G E Mayers
    Dear Dave, For the larger scheme of things, the maps in Murfin are pretty good. The bookstore at the Antietam VC should have a three part series of maps which
    Message 1 of 25 , Oct 4, 2008
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      Dear Dave,

      For the larger scheme of things, the maps in Murfin are pretty
      good. The bookstore at the Antietam VC should have a three part
      series of maps which cover the three main phases of the battle. I
      have only the maps done for the first phase (i.e. North Woods,
      East Woods, Cornfield etc).

      The general NPS brochure, which you can download via the NPS
      Antietam website, also is good.

      As to the movement of different brigades etc. I would suggest you
      consider investing in the TravelBrains Antietam. It is a very
      good program.

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Dave" <gewehr@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 12:55 PM
      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Carman


      > Ok, then, can it be said by most that Priest is, in some cases,
      > unreliable as a guide to the tactical movements of the battle
      > itself?
      > How then does a newbie to studying this battle go about tracing
      > movements of brigades (and in some cases regiments) so that I
      > can get
      > them into my head? I mean, is there a reliable work, like
      > Pfanz for
      > Gettysburg, that spends a lot of time on actual battle
      > movements?
      > Harsh, Murfin, Sears et.al. don't seem (to me) to offer the
      > kind of
      > detail that Priest does. The campaign I have a grasp on, it's
      > the
      > battle itself that is foggy.
      >
      > That's also why I've been asking about the value of Carman.
      >
      > Or, maybe I just need a battlefield guide for 3 hours in a few
      > weeks?
      >
      > Dave
      >
      > Stephen Recker wrote:
      >>
      >> That is exactly the case.
      >>
      >> Stephen
      >>
      >> On Friday, October 3, 2008, at 06:19 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
      >>
      >> > Maybe that is because there is not a lot of published
      >> > material
      >> > available on South Mountain. But there is a ton of better
      >> > stuff
      >> > on Antietam....
      >> >
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
    • G E Mayers
      Dean, I did not know you could download the Carman Copes maps! Where can you find them online to download? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian,
      Message 2 of 25 , Oct 4, 2008
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        Dean,

        I did not know you could download the Carman Copes maps! Where
        can you find them online to download?

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 12:59 PM
        Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Carman


        > I'd go with Murfin, but as you don't think it is detailed
        > enough,
        > Camen is _the_ source for detail. Just have some good maps
        > handy,
        > like the downloadable Carmen Cope maps to follow visually.
        >
        > Dean
        >
        > On Oct 4, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Dave wrote:
        >
        >> Ok, then, can it be said by most that Priest is, in some
        >> cases,
        >> unreliable as a guide to the tactical movements of the battle
        >> itself?
        >> How then does a newbie to studying this battle go about
        >> tracing
        >> movements of brigades (and in some cases regiments) so that I
        >> can get
        >> them into my head? I mean, is there a reliable work, like
        >> Pfanz for
        >> Gettysburg, that spends a lot of time on actual battle
        >> movements?
        >> Harsh, Murfin, Sears et.al. don't seem (to me) to offer the
        >> kind of
        >> detail that Priest does. The campaign I have a grasp on, it's
        >> the
        >> battle itself that is foggy.
        >>
        >> That's also why I've been asking about the value of Carman.
        >>
        >> Or, maybe I just need a battlefield guide for 3 hours in a few
        >> weeks?
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
      • James W. Durney
        ... itself? ... get ... for ... weeks? ... I m not sure that what we know is what happened. During combat, few people check details like time or try to
        Message 3 of 25 , Oct 4, 2008
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          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Dave <gewehr@...> wrote:
          >
          > Ok, then, can it be said by most that Priest is, in some cases,
          > unreliable as a guide to the tactical movements of the battle
          itself?
          > How then does a newbie to studying this battle go about tracing
          > movements of brigades (and in some cases regiments) so that I can
          get
          > them into my head? I mean, is there a reliable work, like Pfanz
          for
          > Gettysburg, that spends a lot of time on actual battle movements?
          > Harsh, Murfin, Sears et.al. don't seem (to me) to offer the kind of
          > detail that Priest does. The campaign I have a grasp on, it's the
          > battle itself that is foggy.
          >
          > That's also why I've been asking about the value of Carman.
          >
          > Or, maybe I just need a battlefield guide for 3 hours in a few
          weeks?
          >
          >

          I'm not sure that what we "know" is what happened. During combat,
          few people check details like time or try to determine where they are
          in the woods, fileds or hills. The majority are trying to stay alive
          while trying to kill someone. After it is all over, in sime cases
          years later, they "remember" these details for histories.

          While not Antietam, Oliver Norton's "Attack and Defense of Little
          Round Top" is the best example of how history is made that I know of.
        • Dean Essig
          Sure Gerry... Available right here (make sure that whole ugly thing is one line on your browser): http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?
          Message 4 of 25 , Oct 4, 2008
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            Sure Gerry...

            Available right here (make sure that whole ugly thing is one line on
            your browser):

            http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?
            collId=milmap&action=browse&fileName=gmd384m/g3842m/g3842am/
            gcw0247000/ct_browse.db&displayType=3&maxCols=3&recNum=0&itemLink=r?
            ammem/gmd:@field(NUMBER+@band(g3842am+gcw0247000))&title2=Atlas+of+the
            +battlefield+of+Antietam+%2f+&linkText=Back+to+bibliographic+information

            Dean

            On Oct 4, 2008, at 7:18 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

            > I did not know you could download the Carman Copes maps! Where
            > can you find them online to download?



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • G E Mayers
            Dean, It did not come in as one single hyperlinked line. If you can tell me where on the memory.loc.gov website I need to go, I can search for it myself. Yr.
            Message 5 of 25 , Oct 4, 2008
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              Dean,

              It did not come in as one single hyperlinked line.

              If you can tell me where on the memory.loc.gov website I need to
              go, I can search for it myself.

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 10:36 PM
              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Carman


              > Sure Gerry...
              >
              > Available right here (make sure that whole ugly thing is one
              > line on
              > your browser):
              >
              > http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?
              > collId=milmap&action=browse&fileName=gmd384m/g3842m/g3842am/
              > gcw0247000/ct_browse.db&displayType=3&maxCols=3&recNum=0&itemLink=r?
              > ammem/gmd:@field(NUMBER+@band(g3842am+gcw0247000))&title2=Atlas+of+the
              > +battlefield+of+Antietam+%2f+&linkText=Back+to+bibliographic+information
              >
              > Dean
              >
              > On Oct 4, 2008, at 7:18 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
              >
              >> I did not know you could download the Carman Copes maps! Where
              >> can you find them online to download?
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
            • Dean Essig
              Follow the link below http://aotw.org/exhibit.php?exhibit_id=1 And click on the online link in the paragraph headed Campaign Maps . ... [Non-text portions
              Message 6 of 25 , Oct 5, 2008
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                Follow the link below

                http://aotw.org/exhibit.php?exhibit_id=1

                And click on the "online" link in the paragraph headed "Campaign Maps".


                On Oct 4, 2008, at 10:27 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

                > It did not come in as one single hyperlinked line.
                >
                > If you can tell me where on the memory.loc.gov website I need to
                > go, I can search for it myself.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • G E Mayers
                Dear Dean, I have the Antietam on the Web website already bookmarked and have used the campaign maps. What I need is the actual Cope Carman maps. The link Dave
                Message 7 of 25 , Oct 5, 2008
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                  Dear Dean,

                  I have the Antietam on the Web website already bookmarked and
                  have used the campaign maps. What I need is the actual Cope
                  Carman maps. The link Dave gave me will work provided I can copy
                  the entire URL string.

                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 9:01 AM
                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Carman


                  > Follow the link below
                  >
                  > http://aotw.org/exhibit.php?exhibit_id=1
                  >
                  > And click on the "online" link in the paragraph headed
                  > "Campaign Maps".
                  >
                  >
                  > On Oct 4, 2008, at 10:27 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
                  >
                  >> It did not come in as one single hyperlinked line.
                  >>
                  >> If you can tell me where on the memory.loc.gov website I need
                  >> to
                  >> go, I can search for it myself.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                • Dean Essig
                  The source links on that page I sent takes you to the actual Carmen- Cope maps. I just sent the AotW address because it had a one word hyperlink you could
                  Message 8 of 25 , Oct 5, 2008
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                    The source links on that page I sent takes you to the actual Carmen-
                    Cope maps. I just sent the AotW address because it had a one word
                    hyperlink you could click to get there.

                    All 14 maps, fully downloadable.

                    On Oct 5, 2008, at 8:36 AM, G E Mayers wrote:

                    > I have the Antietam on the Web website already bookmarked and
                    > have used the campaign maps. What I need is the actual Cope
                    > Carman maps. The link Dave gave me will work provided I can copy
                    > the entire URL string.



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Stephen Recker
                    Funny you should mention this. I just read Tom Desjadin s These Honored Dead: How the Story of Gettysburg Shaped American Memory in which he disputes the
                    Message 9 of 25 , Oct 5, 2008
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                      Funny you should mention this. I just read Tom Desjadin's "These
                      Honored Dead: How the Story of Gettysburg Shaped American Memory" in
                      which he disputes the accuracy of Norton's "Attack and Defense" much as
                      Harsh deconstructs Walker in "Taken at the Flood".

                      Stephen


                      On Saturday, October 4, 2008, at 09:26 PM, James W. Durney wrote:

                      > While not Antietam, Oliver Norton's "Attack and Defense of Little
                      > Round Top" is the best example of how history is made that I know of.
                      >
                    • James W. Durney
                      However, history is that version. I ve said it many times, I m not sure we know what we think we do. ... in ... much as ... of.
                      Message 10 of 25 , Oct 5, 2008
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                        However, "history" is that version. I've said it many times, I'm not
                        sure we know what we think we do.


                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Funny you should mention this. I just read Tom Desjadin's "These
                        > Honored Dead: How the Story of Gettysburg Shaped American Memory"
                        in
                        > which he disputes the accuracy of Norton's "Attack and Defense"
                        much as
                        > Harsh deconstructs Walker in "Taken at the Flood".
                        >
                        > Stephen
                        >
                        >
                        > On Saturday, October 4, 2008, at 09:26 PM, James W. Durney wrote:
                        >
                        > > While not Antietam, Oliver Norton's "Attack and Defense of Little
                        > > Round Top" is the best example of how history is made that I know
                        of.
                        > >
                        >
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