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Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Carman

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  • Dave
    Ok, then, can it be said by most that Priest is, in some cases, unreliable as a guide to the tactical movements of the battle itself? How then does a newbie to
    Message 1 of 25 , Oct 4, 2008
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      Ok, then, can it be said by most that Priest is, in some cases,
      unreliable as a guide to the tactical movements of the battle itself?
      How then does a newbie to studying this battle go about tracing
      movements of brigades (and in some cases regiments) so that I can get
      them into my head? I mean, is there a reliable work, like Pfanz for
      Gettysburg, that spends a lot of time on actual battle movements?
      Harsh, Murfin, Sears et.al. don't seem (to me) to offer the kind of
      detail that Priest does. The campaign I have a grasp on, it's the
      battle itself that is foggy.

      That's also why I've been asking about the value of Carman.

      Or, maybe I just need a battlefield guide for 3 hours in a few weeks?

      Dave

      Stephen Recker wrote:
      >
      > That is exactly the case.
      >
      > Stephen
      >
      > On Friday, October 3, 2008, at 06:19 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
      >
      > > Maybe that is because there is not a lot of published material
      > > available on South Mountain. But there is a ton of better stuff
      > > on Antietam....
      > >
      >
      >
    • Dean Essig
      I d go with Murfin, but as you don t think it is detailed enough, Camen is _the_ source for detail. Just have some good maps handy, like the downloadable
      Message 2 of 25 , Oct 4, 2008
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        I'd go with Murfin, but as you don't think it is detailed enough,
        Camen is _the_ source for detail. Just have some good maps handy,
        like the downloadable Carmen Cope maps to follow visually.

        Dean

        On Oct 4, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Dave wrote:

        > Ok, then, can it be said by most that Priest is, in some cases,
        > unreliable as a guide to the tactical movements of the battle itself?
        > How then does a newbie to studying this battle go about tracing
        > movements of brigades (and in some cases regiments) so that I can get
        > them into my head? I mean, is there a reliable work, like Pfanz for
        > Gettysburg, that spends a lot of time on actual battle movements?
        > Harsh, Murfin, Sears et.al. don't seem (to me) to offer the kind of
        > detail that Priest does. The campaign I have a grasp on, it's the
        > battle itself that is foggy.
        >
        > That's also why I've been asking about the value of Carman.
        >
        > Or, maybe I just need a battlefield guide for 3 hours in a few weeks?



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • G E Mayers
        Dear Dave, For the larger scheme of things, the maps in Murfin are pretty good. The bookstore at the Antietam VC should have a three part series of maps which
        Message 3 of 25 , Oct 4, 2008
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          Dear Dave,

          For the larger scheme of things, the maps in Murfin are pretty
          good. The bookstore at the Antietam VC should have a three part
          series of maps which cover the three main phases of the battle. I
          have only the maps done for the first phase (i.e. North Woods,
          East Woods, Cornfield etc).

          The general NPS brochure, which you can download via the NPS
          Antietam website, also is good.

          As to the movement of different brigades etc. I would suggest you
          consider investing in the TravelBrains Antietam. It is a very
          good program.

          Yr. Obt. Svt.
          G E "Gerry" Mayers

          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Dave" <gewehr@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 12:55 PM
          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Carman


          > Ok, then, can it be said by most that Priest is, in some cases,
          > unreliable as a guide to the tactical movements of the battle
          > itself?
          > How then does a newbie to studying this battle go about tracing
          > movements of brigades (and in some cases regiments) so that I
          > can get
          > them into my head? I mean, is there a reliable work, like
          > Pfanz for
          > Gettysburg, that spends a lot of time on actual battle
          > movements?
          > Harsh, Murfin, Sears et.al. don't seem (to me) to offer the
          > kind of
          > detail that Priest does. The campaign I have a grasp on, it's
          > the
          > battle itself that is foggy.
          >
          > That's also why I've been asking about the value of Carman.
          >
          > Or, maybe I just need a battlefield guide for 3 hours in a few
          > weeks?
          >
          > Dave
          >
          > Stephen Recker wrote:
          >>
          >> That is exactly the case.
          >>
          >> Stephen
          >>
          >> On Friday, October 3, 2008, at 06:19 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
          >>
          >> > Maybe that is because there is not a lot of published
          >> > material
          >> > available on South Mountain. But there is a ton of better
          >> > stuff
          >> > on Antietam....
          >> >
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
        • G E Mayers
          Dean, I did not know you could download the Carman Copes maps! Where can you find them online to download? Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian,
          Message 4 of 25 , Oct 4, 2008
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            Dean,

            I did not know you could download the Carman Copes maps! Where
            can you find them online to download?

            Yr. Obt. Svt.
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 12:59 PM
            Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Carman


            > I'd go with Murfin, but as you don't think it is detailed
            > enough,
            > Camen is _the_ source for detail. Just have some good maps
            > handy,
            > like the downloadable Carmen Cope maps to follow visually.
            >
            > Dean
            >
            > On Oct 4, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Dave wrote:
            >
            >> Ok, then, can it be said by most that Priest is, in some
            >> cases,
            >> unreliable as a guide to the tactical movements of the battle
            >> itself?
            >> How then does a newbie to studying this battle go about
            >> tracing
            >> movements of brigades (and in some cases regiments) so that I
            >> can get
            >> them into my head? I mean, is there a reliable work, like
            >> Pfanz for
            >> Gettysburg, that spends a lot of time on actual battle
            >> movements?
            >> Harsh, Murfin, Sears et.al. don't seem (to me) to offer the
            >> kind of
            >> detail that Priest does. The campaign I have a grasp on, it's
            >> the
            >> battle itself that is foggy.
            >>
            >> That's also why I've been asking about the value of Carman.
            >>
            >> Or, maybe I just need a battlefield guide for 3 hours in a few
            >> weeks?
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
          • James W. Durney
            ... itself? ... get ... for ... weeks? ... I m not sure that what we know is what happened. During combat, few people check details like time or try to
            Message 5 of 25 , Oct 4, 2008
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              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Dave <gewehr@...> wrote:
              >
              > Ok, then, can it be said by most that Priest is, in some cases,
              > unreliable as a guide to the tactical movements of the battle
              itself?
              > How then does a newbie to studying this battle go about tracing
              > movements of brigades (and in some cases regiments) so that I can
              get
              > them into my head? I mean, is there a reliable work, like Pfanz
              for
              > Gettysburg, that spends a lot of time on actual battle movements?
              > Harsh, Murfin, Sears et.al. don't seem (to me) to offer the kind of
              > detail that Priest does. The campaign I have a grasp on, it's the
              > battle itself that is foggy.
              >
              > That's also why I've been asking about the value of Carman.
              >
              > Or, maybe I just need a battlefield guide for 3 hours in a few
              weeks?
              >
              >

              I'm not sure that what we "know" is what happened. During combat,
              few people check details like time or try to determine where they are
              in the woods, fileds or hills. The majority are trying to stay alive
              while trying to kill someone. After it is all over, in sime cases
              years later, they "remember" these details for histories.

              While not Antietam, Oliver Norton's "Attack and Defense of Little
              Round Top" is the best example of how history is made that I know of.
            • Dean Essig
              Sure Gerry... Available right here (make sure that whole ugly thing is one line on your browser): http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?
              Message 6 of 25 , Oct 4, 2008
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                Sure Gerry...

                Available right here (make sure that whole ugly thing is one line on
                your browser):

                http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?
                collId=milmap&action=browse&fileName=gmd384m/g3842m/g3842am/
                gcw0247000/ct_browse.db&displayType=3&maxCols=3&recNum=0&itemLink=r?
                ammem/gmd:@field(NUMBER+@band(g3842am+gcw0247000))&title2=Atlas+of+the
                +battlefield+of+Antietam+%2f+&linkText=Back+to+bibliographic+information

                Dean

                On Oct 4, 2008, at 7:18 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

                > I did not know you could download the Carman Copes maps! Where
                > can you find them online to download?



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • G E Mayers
                Dean, It did not come in as one single hyperlinked line. If you can tell me where on the memory.loc.gov website I need to go, I can search for it myself. Yr.
                Message 7 of 25 , Oct 4, 2008
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                  Dean,

                  It did not come in as one single hyperlinked line.

                  If you can tell me where on the memory.loc.gov website I need to
                  go, I can search for it myself.

                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 10:36 PM
                  Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Carman


                  > Sure Gerry...
                  >
                  > Available right here (make sure that whole ugly thing is one
                  > line on
                  > your browser):
                  >
                  > http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?
                  > collId=milmap&action=browse&fileName=gmd384m/g3842m/g3842am/
                  > gcw0247000/ct_browse.db&displayType=3&maxCols=3&recNum=0&itemLink=r?
                  > ammem/gmd:@field(NUMBER+@band(g3842am+gcw0247000))&title2=Atlas+of+the
                  > +battlefield+of+Antietam+%2f+&linkText=Back+to+bibliographic+information
                  >
                  > Dean
                  >
                  > On Oct 4, 2008, at 7:18 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
                  >
                  >> I did not know you could download the Carman Copes maps! Where
                  >> can you find them online to download?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                • Dean Essig
                  Follow the link below http://aotw.org/exhibit.php?exhibit_id=1 And click on the online link in the paragraph headed Campaign Maps . ... [Non-text portions
                  Message 8 of 25 , Oct 5, 2008
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                    Follow the link below

                    http://aotw.org/exhibit.php?exhibit_id=1

                    And click on the "online" link in the paragraph headed "Campaign Maps".


                    On Oct 4, 2008, at 10:27 PM, G E Mayers wrote:

                    > It did not come in as one single hyperlinked line.
                    >
                    > If you can tell me where on the memory.loc.gov website I need to
                    > go, I can search for it myself.



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • G E Mayers
                    Dear Dean, I have the Antietam on the Web website already bookmarked and have used the campaign maps. What I need is the actual Cope Carman maps. The link Dave
                    Message 9 of 25 , Oct 5, 2008
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                      Dear Dean,

                      I have the Antietam on the Web website already bookmarked and
                      have used the campaign maps. What I need is the actual Cope
                      Carman maps. The link Dave gave me will work provided I can copy
                      the entire URL string.

                      Yr. Obt. Svt.
                      G E "Gerry" Mayers

                      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Dean Essig" <d.essig@...>
                      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 9:01 AM
                      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Carman


                      > Follow the link below
                      >
                      > http://aotw.org/exhibit.php?exhibit_id=1
                      >
                      > And click on the "online" link in the paragraph headed
                      > "Campaign Maps".
                      >
                      >
                      > On Oct 4, 2008, at 10:27 PM, G E Mayers wrote:
                      >
                      >> It did not come in as one single hyperlinked line.
                      >>
                      >> If you can tell me where on the memory.loc.gov website I need
                      >> to
                      >> go, I can search for it myself.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                    • Dean Essig
                      The source links on that page I sent takes you to the actual Carmen- Cope maps. I just sent the AotW address because it had a one word hyperlink you could
                      Message 10 of 25 , Oct 5, 2008
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                        The source links on that page I sent takes you to the actual Carmen-
                        Cope maps. I just sent the AotW address because it had a one word
                        hyperlink you could click to get there.

                        All 14 maps, fully downloadable.

                        On Oct 5, 2008, at 8:36 AM, G E Mayers wrote:

                        > I have the Antietam on the Web website already bookmarked and
                        > have used the campaign maps. What I need is the actual Cope
                        > Carman maps. The link Dave gave me will work provided I can copy
                        > the entire URL string.



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Stephen Recker
                        Funny you should mention this. I just read Tom Desjadin s These Honored Dead: How the Story of Gettysburg Shaped American Memory in which he disputes the
                        Message 11 of 25 , Oct 5, 2008
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                          Funny you should mention this. I just read Tom Desjadin's "These
                          Honored Dead: How the Story of Gettysburg Shaped American Memory" in
                          which he disputes the accuracy of Norton's "Attack and Defense" much as
                          Harsh deconstructs Walker in "Taken at the Flood".

                          Stephen


                          On Saturday, October 4, 2008, at 09:26 PM, James W. Durney wrote:

                          > While not Antietam, Oliver Norton's "Attack and Defense of Little
                          > Round Top" is the best example of how history is made that I know of.
                          >
                        • James W. Durney
                          However, history is that version. I ve said it many times, I m not sure we know what we think we do. ... in ... much as ... of.
                          Message 12 of 25 , Oct 5, 2008
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                            However, "history" is that version. I've said it many times, I'm not
                            sure we know what we think we do.


                            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Recker <recker@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Funny you should mention this. I just read Tom Desjadin's "These
                            > Honored Dead: How the Story of Gettysburg Shaped American Memory"
                            in
                            > which he disputes the accuracy of Norton's "Attack and Defense"
                            much as
                            > Harsh deconstructs Walker in "Taken at the Flood".
                            >
                            > Stephen
                            >
                            >
                            > On Saturday, October 4, 2008, at 09:26 PM, James W. Durney wrote:
                            >
                            > > While not Antietam, Oliver Norton's "Attack and Defense of Little
                            > > Round Top" is the best example of how history is made that I know
                            of.
                            > >
                            >
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