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Re: Lee's retreat order

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  • eighth_conn_inf
    Dave, His bandaged hands and the pain must have caused him problems. According to what I ve read he only began riding his horse again on 9/17 but he was led by
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 25, 2008
      Dave,

      His bandaged hands and the pain must have caused him problems.
      According to what I've read he only began riding his horse again on
      9/17 but he was led by an orderly. During the Maryland Campaign, his
      lack of mobility and pain arguably could have made his performance
      less than optimal when he needed to be on top of his game. You
      pointed out some possible problems he dealth with.

      It would be an interesting exercise to research all comments made
      about/by Lee during the campaign regarding his injuries to try to
      come to an opinion on how much his injuries affected his performance.

      Larry F.

      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Dave <gewehr@...> wrote:
      >
      > To me, as a newbie at this Antietam business, the factor of Lee's
      hands
      > seems important, maybe more important than we think. Although it
      is
      > speculation, I can imagine some very real problems with having a
      > handicap like this.
      >
      > First, he would have had to dictate all of his dispatches. You can
      > imagine how difficult that would be, and how hard it is to organize
      your
      > thoughts when you do can't write and revise. This might be a
      reason for
      > the disjointed language and lack of clarity in some of the messages.
      >
      > Second, I wonder how well he slept. I doubt that he would have
      allowed
      > the doc to give him laudanum, and the pain in his hands would have
      > probably been significant enough to rob him of sleep, day by day.
      >
      > Third, I also wonder how simply riding in the ambulance, with no
      real
      > mobility and nothing much to do, would have preyed on his mind.
      Not to
      > mention bumping around and being sore after a day's ride, more sore
      than
      > he would have been on Traveler. Riding in the ambulance was what
      you
      > did if you wanted to concentrate and study maps, as Reynolds did on
      the
      > way to Gettysburg. But Reynolds could only do that for a few miles,
      then
      > he jumped on his horse. Lee must have hated every minute in that
      > contraption.
      >
      > We'll never know, but it's interesting to speculate and kick around.
      >
      > Dave
      >
      >
      >
      > G E Mayers wrote:
      > >
      > > Dear Tom,
      > >
      > > That is the sense of what I get from again reviewing the relevant
      > > pages in TATF. Even though Harsh's language is not laced with
      > > emotion, I do get a sense that Lee was practically in the state
      > > of panic, if that can be said. I also wonder how much the
      > > residual effects of the injuries to his hands suffered at the end
      > > of 2nd Manassas contributed to this. Also, as far as you know,
      > > was Lee prescribed any medicines to help with the continuing
      > > pain?
      > >
      > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
      > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
      > >
      > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...
      > > <mailto:clemenst%40hagerstowncc.edu>>
      > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com <mailto:TalkAntietam%
      40yahoogroups.com>>
      > > Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 11:26 PM
      > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Lee's retreat order
      > >
      > > Gerry,
      > > You've opened an interesting topic. We know Lee wrote the order
      > > to McLwas, and presumably, but not discovered, to Jackson and
      > > Walker too ordering the retreat to Shepherdstown Ford and
      > > abandonment of the seige of Harpers Ferry about 8:00 pm. Yet by
      > > then he had no real knowledge of what had happened at Crampton's
      > > Gap. Some people have suggested it was the loss of Crampton's
      > > Gap that prompted the withdrawal order, but no source that I know
      > > of shows Lee receiving info about Crampton's until the one you
      > > mention, Munford, at 10:00. So whatever he saw at Turner's and
      > > Fox's was enough to cause him to suspend the campaign, at least
      > > temporairily.
      > >
      > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      > > Professor of History
      > > Hagerstown Community College
      > >
      > >
      >
    • Thomas Clemens
      Gerry, Scott Hartwig, in his R. E. Lee and the Md Campaign p. 346 in R.E. Lee the Soldier, (1996) cites Munford s Diary the original is in the library at
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 25, 2008
        Gerry,
        Scott Hartwig, in his "R. E. Lee and the Md Campaign" p. 346 in R.E. Lee the Soldier, (1996) cites "Munford's Diary" the original is in the library at Duke, or DOOK as Teej pronounces it. It is at least edited post-war, so may be a bit embellished, but he says this about notifying Lee:
        “I occupied Crampton’s Gap…was attacked by General Franklin…Capt. W. K. Martin reported in person to Genl R. E. Lee that night.”
        So there is the name of the courier. Steve Stoelmyer, an authority on the South Mountain battle, has been kind enough to provide the citations.


        Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
        Professor of History
        Hagerstown Community College




        >>> "G E Mayers" gerry1952@...> 9/24/2008 10:30 PM >>

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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • G E Mayers
        Tom, Great! Now, if we can only find sources that talk about Lee s health during the entire campaign and particularly during the South Mountain crisis. Yr.
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 25, 2008
          Tom,

          Great! Now, if we can only find sources that talk about Lee's
          health during the entire campaign and particularly during the
          South Mountain crisis.

          Yr. Obt. Svt.
          G E "Gerry" Mayers

          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 12:00 PM
          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Lee's retreat order


          Gerry,
          Scott Hartwig, in his "R. E. Lee and the Md Campaign" p. 346 in
          R.E. Lee the Soldier, (1996) cites "Munford's Diary" the original
          is in the library at Duke, or DOOK as Teej pronounces it. It is
          at least edited post-war, so may be a bit embellished, but he
          says this about notifying Lee:
          “I occupied Crampton’s Gap…was attacked by General Franklin…Capt.
          W. K. Martin reported in person to Genl R. E. Lee that night.”
          So there is the name of the courier. Steve Stoelmyer, an
          authority on the South Mountain battle, has been kind enough to
          provide the citations.


          Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
          Professor of History
          Hagerstown Community College




          >>> "G E Mayers" gerry1952@...> 9/24/2008 10:30 PM >>

          Visit Your Group
          Only on Yahoo!
          Star Wars galaxy
          Create a profile
          and meet fans.
          Yahoo! News
          Kevin Sites
          Get coverage of
          world crises.
          Moderator Central
          Get answers to
          your questions about
          running Y! Groups.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • barringer63
          ... Avery Craven who edited the small book on Lee s letters to Markie Williams noted that Lee did not write Ms. Williams during the war but actually he did, at
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 25, 2008
            Gerry Mayers wrote:
            >
            > Tom,
            >
            > Great! Now, if we can only find sources that talk about Lee's
            > health during the entire campaign and particularly during the
            > South Mountain crisis.

            Avery Craven who edited the small book on Lee's letters to
            Markie Williams noted that Lee did not write Ms. Williams during the
            war but actually he did, at least once anyway. I'm out of town so I
            don't have the letter in front of me but IIRC, it was written in
            early to mid-October. He told Markie about the accident and noted
            that he still had to use a sling so a secretary had to handle all of
            his correspondence for him.

            Regards,
            Teej
            >
          • G E Mayers
            Dear Teej, It would be interesting to read the letter herein and also to determine how long it took for Lee s hands/arms to finally heal. Yr. Obt. Svt. G E
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 25, 2008
              Dear Teej,

              It would be interesting to read the letter herein and also to
              determine how long it took for Lee's hands/arms to finally heal.

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "barringer63" <teej@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 3:03 PM
              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Lee's retreat order


              Gerry Mayers wrote:
              >
              > Tom,
              >
              > Great! Now, if we can only find sources that talk about Lee's
              > health during the entire campaign and particularly during the
              > South Mountain crisis.

              Avery Craven who edited the small book on Lee's letters to
              Markie Williams noted that Lee did not write Ms. Williams during
              the
              war but actually he did, at least once anyway. I'm out of town so
              I
              don't have the letter in front of me but IIRC, it was written in
              early to mid-October. He told Markie about the accident and noted
              that he still had to use a sling so a secretary had to handle all
              of
              his correspondence for him.

              Regards,
              Teej
              >
            • eighth_conn_inf
              More on Lee s injuries: Lee s abilities to participate in some of the activities which might have helped him understand what McClellan was up to were hampered
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 26, 2008
                More on Lee's injuries:

                Lee's abilities to participate in some of the activities which might
                have helped him understand what McClellan was up to were hampered by
                injury. He had incurred sprained and broken wrists on 31 August in a
                fall which limited his mobility and therefore his ability to command
                the army especially during the battle at Antietam. He rode in an
                ambulance from that time to 16 September when he was able to mount
                his horse and be led by an aide. It took some six weeks before Lee
                could even sign his name. In a letter to his wife on Oct. 12 he said
                that "My hands are improving slowly, and, with my left hand, I am
                able to dress and undress myself, which is a great comfort. My right
                is becoming of some assistance, too, though it is still swollen and
                sometimes painful. The bandages have been removed. I am now able to
                sign my name. It has been six weeks to-day since I was unjured, and I
                have at last discarded the sling."

                See Harsh TATF pg. 476 fn 126 referencing Lee Jr. "Recollections and
                Letters of General Robert E. Lee, by His Son."

                Larry F.

                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Dear Teej,
                >
                > It would be interesting to read the letter herein and also to
                > determine how long it took for Lee's hands/arms to finally heal.
                >
                > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                >
                > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "barringer63" <teej@...>
                > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 3:03 PM
                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Lee's retreat order
                >
                >
                > Gerry Mayers wrote:
                > >
                > > Tom,
                > >
                > > Great! Now, if we can only find sources that talk about Lee's
                > > health during the entire campaign and particularly during the
                > > South Mountain crisis.
                >
                > Avery Craven who edited the small book on Lee's letters to
                > Markie Williams noted that Lee did not write Ms. Williams during
                > the
                > war but actually he did, at least once anyway. I'm out of town so
                > I
                > don't have the letter in front of me but IIRC, it was written in
                > early to mid-October. He told Markie about the accident and noted
                > that he still had to use a sling so a secretary had to handle all
                > of
                > his correspondence for him.
                >
                > Regards,
                > Teej
                > >
                >
              • G E Mayers
                Dear Larry, I am aware of Lee s own citations but would be interested in citations from others, especially the Chief Medical Director. Yr. Obt. Svt. G E
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 28, 2008
                  Dear Larry,

                  I am aware of Lee's own citations but would be interested in
                  citations from others, especially the Chief Medical Director.

                  Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  G E "Gerry" Mayers

                  To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                  the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                  To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 12:55 PM
                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Lee's retreat order


                  More on Lee's injuries:

                  Lee's abilities to participate in some of the activities which
                  might
                  have helped him understand what McClellan was up to were hampered
                  by
                  injury. He had incurred sprained and broken wrists on 31 August
                  in a
                  fall which limited his mobility and therefore his ability to
                  command
                  the army especially during the battle at Antietam. He rode in an
                  ambulance from that time to 16 September when he was able to
                  mount
                  his horse and be led by an aide. It took some six weeks before
                  Lee
                  could even sign his name. In a letter to his wife on Oct. 12 he
                  said
                  that "My hands are improving slowly, and, with my left hand, I am
                  able to dress and undress myself, which is a great comfort. My
                  right
                  is becoming of some assistance, too, though it is still swollen
                  and
                  sometimes painful. The bandages have been removed. I am now able
                  to
                  sign my name. It has been six weeks to-day since I was unjured,
                  and I
                  have at last discarded the sling."

                  See Harsh TATF pg. 476 fn 126 referencing Lee Jr. "Recollections
                  and
                  Letters of General Robert E. Lee, by His Son."

                  Larry F.

                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Teej,
                  >
                  > It would be interesting to read the letter herein and also to
                  > determine how long it took for Lee's hands/arms to finally
                  > heal.
                  >
                  > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                  > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                  >
                  > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                  > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                  > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                  > from
                  > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "barringer63" <teej@...>
                  > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 3:03 PM
                  > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Lee's retreat order
                  >
                  >
                  > Gerry Mayers wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Tom,
                  > >
                  > > Great! Now, if we can only find sources that talk about Lee's
                  > > health during the entire campaign and particularly during the
                  > > South Mountain crisis.
                  >
                  > Avery Craven who edited the small book on Lee's letters to
                  > Markie Williams noted that Lee did not write Ms. Williams
                  > during
                  > the
                  > war but actually he did, at least once anyway. I'm out of town
                  > so
                  > I
                  > don't have the letter in front of me but IIRC, it was written
                  > in
                  > early to mid-October. He told Markie about the accident and
                  > noted
                  > that he still had to use a sling so a secretary had to handle
                  > all
                  > of
                  > his correspondence for him.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  > Teej
                  > >
                  >
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