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Lee's retreat order

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  • Thomas Clemens
    Gerry, You ve opened an interesting topic. We know Lee wrote the order to McLwas, and presumably, but not discovered, to Jackson and Walker too ordering the
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 24, 2008
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      Gerry,
      You've opened an interesting topic. We know Lee wrote the order to McLwas, and presumably, but not discovered, to Jackson and Walker too ordering the retreat to Shepherdstown Ford and abandonment of the seige of Harpers Ferry about 8:00 pm. Yet by then he had no real knowledge of what had happened at Crampton's Gap. Some people have suggested it was the loss of Crampton's Gap that prompted the withdrawal order, but no source that I know of shows Lee receiving info about Crampton's until the one you mention, Munford, at 10:00. So whatever he saw at Turner's and Fox's was enough to cause him to suspend the campaign, at least temporairily.




      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      Professor of History
      Hagerstown Community College
    • G E Mayers
      Dear Tom, That is the sense of what I get from again reviewing the relevant pages in TATF. Even though Harsh s language is not laced with emotion, I do get a
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 24, 2008
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        Dear Tom,

        That is the sense of what I get from again reviewing the relevant
        pages in TATF. Even though Harsh's language is not laced with
        emotion, I do get a sense that Lee was practically in the state
        of panic, if that can be said. I also wonder how much the
        residual effects of the injuries to his hands suffered at the end
        of 2nd Manassas contributed to this. Also, as far as you know,
        was Lee prescribed any medicines to help with the continuing
        pain?

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 11:26 PM
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Lee's retreat order


        Gerry,
        You've opened an interesting topic. We know Lee wrote the order
        to McLwas, and presumably, but not discovered, to Jackson and
        Walker too ordering the retreat to Shepherdstown Ford and
        abandonment of the seige of Harpers Ferry about 8:00 pm. Yet by
        then he had no real knowledge of what had happened at Crampton's
        Gap. Some people have suggested it was the loss of Crampton's
        Gap that prompted the withdrawal order, but no source that I know
        of shows Lee receiving info about Crampton's until the one you
        mention, Munford, at 10:00. So whatever he saw at Turner's and
        Fox's was enough to cause him to suspend the campaign, at least
        temporairily.




        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        Professor of History
        Hagerstown Community College
      • Dave
        To me, as a newbie at this Antietam business, the factor of Lee s hands seems important, maybe more important than we think. Although it is speculation, I can
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 24, 2008
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          To me, as a newbie at this Antietam business, the factor of Lee's hands
          seems important, maybe more important than we think. Although it is
          speculation, I can imagine some very real problems with having a
          handicap like this.

          First, he would have had to dictate all of his dispatches. You can
          imagine how difficult that would be, and how hard it is to organize your
          thoughts when you do can't write and revise. This might be a reason for
          the disjointed language and lack of clarity in some of the messages.

          Second, I wonder how well he slept. I doubt that he would have allowed
          the doc to give him laudanum, and the pain in his hands would have
          probably been significant enough to rob him of sleep, day by day.

          Third, I also wonder how simply riding in the ambulance, with no real
          mobility and nothing much to do, would have preyed on his mind. Not to
          mention bumping around and being sore after a day's ride, more sore than
          he would have been on Traveler. Riding in the ambulance was what you
          did if you wanted to concentrate and study maps, as Reynolds did on the
          way to Gettysburg. But Reynolds could only do that for a few miles, then
          he jumped on his horse. Lee must have hated every minute in that
          contraption.

          We'll never know, but it's interesting to speculate and kick around.

          Dave



          G E Mayers wrote:
          >
          > Dear Tom,
          >
          > That is the sense of what I get from again reviewing the relevant
          > pages in TATF. Even though Harsh's language is not laced with
          > emotion, I do get a sense that Lee was practically in the state
          > of panic, if that can be said. I also wonder how much the
          > residual effects of the injuries to his hands suffered at the end
          > of 2nd Manassas contributed to this. Also, as far as you know,
          > was Lee prescribed any medicines to help with the continuing
          > pain?
          >
          > Yr. Obt. Svt.
          > G E "Gerry" Mayers
          >
          > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...
          > <mailto:clemenst%40hagerstowncc.edu>>
          > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>>
          > Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 11:26 PM
          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Lee's retreat order
          >
          > Gerry,
          > You've opened an interesting topic. We know Lee wrote the order
          > to McLwas, and presumably, but not discovered, to Jackson and
          > Walker too ordering the retreat to Shepherdstown Ford and
          > abandonment of the seige of Harpers Ferry about 8:00 pm. Yet by
          > then he had no real knowledge of what had happened at Crampton's
          > Gap. Some people have suggested it was the loss of Crampton's
          > Gap that prompted the withdrawal order, but no source that I know
          > of shows Lee receiving info about Crampton's until the one you
          > mention, Munford, at 10:00. So whatever he saw at Turner's and
          > Fox's was enough to cause him to suspend the campaign, at least
          > temporairily.
          >
          > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          > Professor of History
          > Hagerstown Community College
          >
          >
        • eighth_conn_inf
          Dave, His bandaged hands and the pain must have caused him problems. According to what I ve read he only began riding his horse again on 9/17 but he was led by
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 25, 2008
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            Dave,

            His bandaged hands and the pain must have caused him problems.
            According to what I've read he only began riding his horse again on
            9/17 but he was led by an orderly. During the Maryland Campaign, his
            lack of mobility and pain arguably could have made his performance
            less than optimal when he needed to be on top of his game. You
            pointed out some possible problems he dealth with.

            It would be an interesting exercise to research all comments made
            about/by Lee during the campaign regarding his injuries to try to
            come to an opinion on how much his injuries affected his performance.

            Larry F.

            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Dave <gewehr@...> wrote:
            >
            > To me, as a newbie at this Antietam business, the factor of Lee's
            hands
            > seems important, maybe more important than we think. Although it
            is
            > speculation, I can imagine some very real problems with having a
            > handicap like this.
            >
            > First, he would have had to dictate all of his dispatches. You can
            > imagine how difficult that would be, and how hard it is to organize
            your
            > thoughts when you do can't write and revise. This might be a
            reason for
            > the disjointed language and lack of clarity in some of the messages.
            >
            > Second, I wonder how well he slept. I doubt that he would have
            allowed
            > the doc to give him laudanum, and the pain in his hands would have
            > probably been significant enough to rob him of sleep, day by day.
            >
            > Third, I also wonder how simply riding in the ambulance, with no
            real
            > mobility and nothing much to do, would have preyed on his mind.
            Not to
            > mention bumping around and being sore after a day's ride, more sore
            than
            > he would have been on Traveler. Riding in the ambulance was what
            you
            > did if you wanted to concentrate and study maps, as Reynolds did on
            the
            > way to Gettysburg. But Reynolds could only do that for a few miles,
            then
            > he jumped on his horse. Lee must have hated every minute in that
            > contraption.
            >
            > We'll never know, but it's interesting to speculate and kick around.
            >
            > Dave
            >
            >
            >
            > G E Mayers wrote:
            > >
            > > Dear Tom,
            > >
            > > That is the sense of what I get from again reviewing the relevant
            > > pages in TATF. Even though Harsh's language is not laced with
            > > emotion, I do get a sense that Lee was practically in the state
            > > of panic, if that can be said. I also wonder how much the
            > > residual effects of the injuries to his hands suffered at the end
            > > of 2nd Manassas contributed to this. Also, as far as you know,
            > > was Lee prescribed any medicines to help with the continuing
            > > pain?
            > >
            > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
            > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
            > >
            > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...
            > > <mailto:clemenst%40hagerstowncc.edu>>
            > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com <mailto:TalkAntietam%
            40yahoogroups.com>>
            > > Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 11:26 PM
            > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Lee's retreat order
            > >
            > > Gerry,
            > > You've opened an interesting topic. We know Lee wrote the order
            > > to McLwas, and presumably, but not discovered, to Jackson and
            > > Walker too ordering the retreat to Shepherdstown Ford and
            > > abandonment of the seige of Harpers Ferry about 8:00 pm. Yet by
            > > then he had no real knowledge of what had happened at Crampton's
            > > Gap. Some people have suggested it was the loss of Crampton's
            > > Gap that prompted the withdrawal order, but no source that I know
            > > of shows Lee receiving info about Crampton's until the one you
            > > mention, Munford, at 10:00. So whatever he saw at Turner's and
            > > Fox's was enough to cause him to suspend the campaign, at least
            > > temporairily.
            > >
            > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            > > Professor of History
            > > Hagerstown Community College
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Thomas Clemens
            Gerry, Scott Hartwig, in his R. E. Lee and the Md Campaign p. 346 in R.E. Lee the Soldier, (1996) cites Munford s Diary the original is in the library at
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 25, 2008
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              Gerry,
              Scott Hartwig, in his "R. E. Lee and the Md Campaign" p. 346 in R.E. Lee the Soldier, (1996) cites "Munford's Diary" the original is in the library at Duke, or DOOK as Teej pronounces it. It is at least edited post-war, so may be a bit embellished, but he says this about notifying Lee:
              “I occupied Crampton’s Gap…was attacked by General Franklin…Capt. W. K. Martin reported in person to Genl R. E. Lee that night.”
              So there is the name of the courier. Steve Stoelmyer, an authority on the South Mountain battle, has been kind enough to provide the citations.


              Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
              Professor of History
              Hagerstown Community College




              >>> "G E Mayers" gerry1952@...> 9/24/2008 10:30 PM >>

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            • G E Mayers
              Tom, Great! Now, if we can only find sources that talk about Lee s health during the entire campaign and particularly during the South Mountain crisis. Yr.
              Message 6 of 10 , Sep 25, 2008
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                Tom,

                Great! Now, if we can only find sources that talk about Lee's
                health during the entire campaign and particularly during the
                South Mountain crisis.

                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 12:00 PM
                Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Lee's retreat order


                Gerry,
                Scott Hartwig, in his "R. E. Lee and the Md Campaign" p. 346 in
                R.E. Lee the Soldier, (1996) cites "Munford's Diary" the original
                is in the library at Duke, or DOOK as Teej pronounces it. It is
                at least edited post-war, so may be a bit embellished, but he
                says this about notifying Lee:
                “I occupied Crampton’s Gap…was attacked by General Franklin…Capt.
                W. K. Martin reported in person to Genl R. E. Lee that night.”
                So there is the name of the courier. Steve Stoelmyer, an
                authority on the South Mountain battle, has been kind enough to
                provide the citations.


                Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                Professor of History
                Hagerstown Community College




                >>> "G E Mayers" gerry1952@...> 9/24/2008 10:30 PM >>

                Visit Your Group
                Only on Yahoo!
                Star Wars galaxy
                Create a profile
                and meet fans.
                Yahoo! News
                Kevin Sites
                Get coverage of
                world crises.
                Moderator Central
                Get answers to
                your questions about
                running Y! Groups.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • barringer63
                ... Avery Craven who edited the small book on Lee s letters to Markie Williams noted that Lee did not write Ms. Williams during the war but actually he did, at
                Message 7 of 10 , Sep 25, 2008
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                  Gerry Mayers wrote:
                  >
                  > Tom,
                  >
                  > Great! Now, if we can only find sources that talk about Lee's
                  > health during the entire campaign and particularly during the
                  > South Mountain crisis.

                  Avery Craven who edited the small book on Lee's letters to
                  Markie Williams noted that Lee did not write Ms. Williams during the
                  war but actually he did, at least once anyway. I'm out of town so I
                  don't have the letter in front of me but IIRC, it was written in
                  early to mid-October. He told Markie about the accident and noted
                  that he still had to use a sling so a secretary had to handle all of
                  his correspondence for him.

                  Regards,
                  Teej
                  >
                • G E Mayers
                  Dear Teej, It would be interesting to read the letter herein and also to determine how long it took for Lee s hands/arms to finally heal. Yr. Obt. Svt. G E
                  Message 8 of 10 , Sep 25, 2008
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                    Dear Teej,

                    It would be interesting to read the letter herein and also to
                    determine how long it took for Lee's hands/arms to finally heal.

                    Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    G E "Gerry" Mayers

                    To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                    the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "barringer63" <teej@...>
                    To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 3:03 PM
                    Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Lee's retreat order


                    Gerry Mayers wrote:
                    >
                    > Tom,
                    >
                    > Great! Now, if we can only find sources that talk about Lee's
                    > health during the entire campaign and particularly during the
                    > South Mountain crisis.

                    Avery Craven who edited the small book on Lee's letters to
                    Markie Williams noted that Lee did not write Ms. Williams during
                    the
                    war but actually he did, at least once anyway. I'm out of town so
                    I
                    don't have the letter in front of me but IIRC, it was written in
                    early to mid-October. He told Markie about the accident and noted
                    that he still had to use a sling so a secretary had to handle all
                    of
                    his correspondence for him.

                    Regards,
                    Teej
                    >
                  • eighth_conn_inf
                    More on Lee s injuries: Lee s abilities to participate in some of the activities which might have helped him understand what McClellan was up to were hampered
                    Message 9 of 10 , Sep 26, 2008
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                      More on Lee's injuries:

                      Lee's abilities to participate in some of the activities which might
                      have helped him understand what McClellan was up to were hampered by
                      injury. He had incurred sprained and broken wrists on 31 August in a
                      fall which limited his mobility and therefore his ability to command
                      the army especially during the battle at Antietam. He rode in an
                      ambulance from that time to 16 September when he was able to mount
                      his horse and be led by an aide. It took some six weeks before Lee
                      could even sign his name. In a letter to his wife on Oct. 12 he said
                      that "My hands are improving slowly, and, with my left hand, I am
                      able to dress and undress myself, which is a great comfort. My right
                      is becoming of some assistance, too, though it is still swollen and
                      sometimes painful. The bandages have been removed. I am now able to
                      sign my name. It has been six weeks to-day since I was unjured, and I
                      have at last discarded the sling."

                      See Harsh TATF pg. 476 fn 126 referencing Lee Jr. "Recollections and
                      Letters of General Robert E. Lee, by His Son."

                      Larry F.

                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear Teej,
                      >
                      > It would be interesting to read the letter herein and also to
                      > determine how long it took for Lee's hands/arms to finally heal.
                      >
                      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                      >
                      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                      > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                      > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                      > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "barringer63" <teej@...>
                      > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 3:03 PM
                      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Lee's retreat order
                      >
                      >
                      > Gerry Mayers wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Tom,
                      > >
                      > > Great! Now, if we can only find sources that talk about Lee's
                      > > health during the entire campaign and particularly during the
                      > > South Mountain crisis.
                      >
                      > Avery Craven who edited the small book on Lee's letters to
                      > Markie Williams noted that Lee did not write Ms. Williams during
                      > the
                      > war but actually he did, at least once anyway. I'm out of town so
                      > I
                      > don't have the letter in front of me but IIRC, it was written in
                      > early to mid-October. He told Markie about the accident and noted
                      > that he still had to use a sling so a secretary had to handle all
                      > of
                      > his correspondence for him.
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      > Teej
                      > >
                      >
                    • G E Mayers
                      Dear Larry, I am aware of Lee s own citations but would be interested in citations from others, especially the Chief Medical Director. Yr. Obt. Svt. G E
                      Message 10 of 10 , Sep 28, 2008
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                        Dear Larry,

                        I am aware of Lee's own citations but would be interested in
                        citations from others, especially the Chief Medical Director.

                        Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        G E "Gerry" Mayers

                        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 12:55 PM
                        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Lee's retreat order


                        More on Lee's injuries:

                        Lee's abilities to participate in some of the activities which
                        might
                        have helped him understand what McClellan was up to were hampered
                        by
                        injury. He had incurred sprained and broken wrists on 31 August
                        in a
                        fall which limited his mobility and therefore his ability to
                        command
                        the army especially during the battle at Antietam. He rode in an
                        ambulance from that time to 16 September when he was able to
                        mount
                        his horse and be led by an aide. It took some six weeks before
                        Lee
                        could even sign his name. In a letter to his wife on Oct. 12 he
                        said
                        that "My hands are improving slowly, and, with my left hand, I am
                        able to dress and undress myself, which is a great comfort. My
                        right
                        is becoming of some assistance, too, though it is still swollen
                        and
                        sometimes painful. The bandages have been removed. I am now able
                        to
                        sign my name. It has been six weeks to-day since I was unjured,
                        and I
                        have at last discarded the sling."

                        See Harsh TATF pg. 476 fn 126 referencing Lee Jr. "Recollections
                        and
                        Letters of General Robert E. Lee, by His Son."

                        Larry F.

                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Dear Teej,
                        >
                        > It would be interesting to read the letter herein and also to
                        > determine how long it took for Lee's hands/arms to finally
                        > heal.
                        >
                        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                        >
                        > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                        > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                        > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
                        > from
                        > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "barringer63" <teej@...>
                        > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 3:03 PM
                        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Lee's retreat order
                        >
                        >
                        > Gerry Mayers wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Tom,
                        > >
                        > > Great! Now, if we can only find sources that talk about Lee's
                        > > health during the entire campaign and particularly during the
                        > > South Mountain crisis.
                        >
                        > Avery Craven who edited the small book on Lee's letters to
                        > Markie Williams noted that Lee did not write Ms. Williams
                        > during
                        > the
                        > war but actually he did, at least once anyway. I'm out of town
                        > so
                        > I
                        > don't have the letter in front of me but IIRC, it was written
                        > in
                        > early to mid-October. He told Markie about the accident and
                        > noted
                        > that he still had to use a sling so a secretary had to handle
                        > all
                        > of
                        > his correspondence for him.
                        >
                        > Regards,
                        > Teej
                        > >
                        >
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