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Re: re Headquarters questions, etc.

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  • eighth_conn_inf
    Gerry, Fortunately I have all three of Dr. Harsh s books with a pristine duplicate copy of Taken at the Flood signed by him since my original is marked up. I
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 8, 2008
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      Gerry,

      Fortunately I have all three of Dr. Harsh's books with a pristine
      duplicate copy of "Taken at the Flood" signed by him since my
      original is marked up. I do see in von Borcke's book (160-1) that
      Jackson put Stuart in charge of the "left wing" of his corps even
      though there were no official Rebel "corps" then. But von Borcke is
      sometimes somewhat fast and loose with facts.

      Robert E. L. Krick says that Jackson and Stuart must have worked out
      some arrangement re the defense of the left flank since Jackson never
      visited Nicodemus Heights ("Defending Lee's Flank: J.E.B. Stuart,
      John Pelham, and COnfederate Artillery on Nicodemus Heights," in "The
      Antietam Campaign, ed. Gary W. Gallagher, pp. 201, 207-8, 217, n. 11.
      Compare also Priest, Antietam, 30, 33, 59, 89; Blackford, 149-150;
      Murfin, 235; Carman, 220, 221, 303.

      It is likely that Jackson verbally put Stuart in some sort of command
      since his troopers were on Jackson's left and also Stuart with his
      horse artillery with other artillery were on Nicodemus Hill then
      Hauser's Ridge. I will go with the above in the absence of harder
      evidence.

      Thank you,
      Larry

      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Dear Larry,
      >
      > I surmise you do not have the book in question. IIRC Harsh
      > documents Stuart's presence on Jackson's left flank very well.
      >
      > Tom Clemens, can you help here?
      >
      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
      >
      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
      > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 12:39 PM
      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Headquarters questions, etc.
      >
      >
      > Gerry,
      > Thanks, but mentioning it and documenting it can be two different
      > things.
      >
      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Dear Larry,
      > >
      > > Do you have Taken at the Flood? Harsh has quite a mention of
      > > Stuart being on the left flank of Jackson, and in effect being
      > > the anchor of the left flank of Jackson and the Potomac River
      > > bend.
      > >
      > > I am not sure what you have been reading, but IIRC even Murfin
      > > and Sears mention it in their books.
      > >
      > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
      > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
      > >
      > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
      > > from
      > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
      > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 12:03 PM
      > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Headquarters questions, etc.
      > >
      > >
      > > Tom,
      > >
      > > I guess legend probably also has Stuart in command on the left
      > > including the guns on Nicodemus Hill? I can't find anything in
      > > writing about this "command."
      > >
      > > Larry
      > >
      > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
      > > <clemenst@>
      > > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Gerry,
      > > > There is no "official" source for it, legend has it that
      > > > Jackson
      > > used the Mary Locher cabin on the edge of West Woods. This is
      > > labeled on many maps as the Alfred Poffenberger farm. I am
      > > unaware
      > > of any proof for that assertion, but I've heard it mentioned.
      > > > I am not as convinced as many people are about Longstreet's
      > > > HQ.
      > > > No
      > > doubt Hill was at the Piper farm, butt he sources for L being
      > > there
      > > are "thin."
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      > > > Professor of History
      > > > Hagerstown Community College
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@> 08/08/08 10:09 AM >>>
      > > > Teej;
      > > >
      > > > Ok. Everything I have read seems to indicate that both Stuart
      > > > and
      > > > Jackson had their headquarters "in the saddle" while at
      > > > Sharpsburg. I was wondering, though, whether Jackson in
      > > > particular had a reasonably "fixed" location where he could
      > > > be
      > > > found if needed.
      > > >
      > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
      > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
      > > >
      > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
      > > > even
      > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in
      > > > the
      > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
      > > > from
      > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > From: "Teej" <teej@>
      > > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      > > > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 9:58 AM
      > > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Headquarters questions, etc.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Gerry Mayers wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > <Snip>
      > > > >
      > > > > However, does anyone know where
      > > > >> Jackson had his headquarters or were they, as Pope
      > > > >> infamously
      > > > >> said, "in the saddle"?
      > > > >
      > > > > This in no way answers your question, Gerry, but I'd
      > > > > like
      > > > > to point out
      > > > > that while Pope is often criticized for using that phrase,
      > > > > Stuart often
      > > > > wrote Flora that his "headquarters is in the saddle these
      > > > > days." I suspect
      > > > > that was a common cavalry phrase.
      > > > >
      > > > > Regards,
      > > > > Teej
      > > > >>
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > ------------------------------------
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ------------------------------------
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • G E Mayers
      Well, Stuart was in command of his cavalry forces as well as the horse artillery on Nicodemus Heights. He and Jackson worked very closely together to keep the
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 8, 2008
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        Well, Stuart was in command of his cavalry forces as well as the
        horse artillery on Nicodemus Heights. He and Jackson worked very
        closely together to keep the flank area between Jackson and the
        Potomac secure. IIRC.

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 12:59 PM
        Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Headquarters questions, etc.


        >I think Larry is questioning Stuart being "in command" on the
        >left, not his
        > presence there.
        >
        > Harry
        >
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
        > Behalf Of G E Mayers
        > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 12:40 PM
        > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Headquarters questions, etc.
        >
        >
        >
        > Dear Larry,
        >
        > I surmise you do not have the book in question. IIRC Harsh
        > documents Stuart's presence on Jackson's left flank very well.
        >
        > Tom Clemens, can you help here?
        >
        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
        >
        > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
        > from
        > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_
        > <mailto:eighth_conn_inf%40yahoo.com>
        > inf@...>
        > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        > yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 12:39 PM
        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Headquarters questions, etc.
        >
        > Gerry,
        > Thanks, but mentioning it and documenting it can be two
        > different
        > things.
        >
        > --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        > yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
        > wrote:
        >>
        >> Dear Larry,
        >>
        >> Do you have Taken at the Flood? Harsh has quite a mention of
        >> Stuart being on the left flank of Jackson, and in effect being
        >> the anchor of the left flank of Jackson and the Potomac River
        >> bend.
        >>
        >> I am not sure what you have been reading, but IIRC even Murfin
        >> and Sears mention it in their books.
        >>
        >> Yr. Obt. Svt.
        >> G E "Gerry" Mayers
        >>
        >> To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
        >> even
        >> on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        >> Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
        >> from
        >> the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        >> ----- Original Message -----
        >> From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
        >> To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        > yahoogroups.com>
        >> Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 12:03 PM
        >> Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Headquarters questions, etc.
        >>
        >>
        >> Tom,
        >>
        >> I guess legend probably also has Stuart in command on the left
        >> including the guns on Nicodemus Hill? I can't find anything in
        >> writing about this "command."
        >>
        >> Larry
        >>
        >> --- In TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        > yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
        >> <clemenst@>
        >> wrote:
        >> >
        >> > Gerry,
        >> > There is no "official" source for it, legend has it that
        >> > Jackson
        >> used the Mary Locher cabin on the edge of West Woods. This is
        >> labeled on many maps as the Alfred Poffenberger farm. I am
        >> unaware
        >> of any proof for that assertion, but I've heard it mentioned.
        >> > I am not as convinced as many people are about Longstreet's
        >> > HQ.
        >> > No
        >> doubt Hill was at the Piper farm, butt he sources for L being
        >> there
        >> are "thin."
        >> >
        >> >
        >> > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        >> > Professor of History
        >> > Hagerstown Community College
        >> >
        >> >
        >> > >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@> 08/08/08 10:09 AM >>>
        >> > Teej;
        >> >
        >> > Ok. Everything I have read seems to indicate that both
        >> > Stuart
        >> > and
        >> > Jackson had their headquarters "in the saddle" while at
        >> > Sharpsburg. I was wondering, though, whether Jackson in
        >> > particular had a reasonably "fixed" location where he could
        >> > be
        >> > found if needed.
        >> >
        >> > Yr. Obt. Svt.
        >> > G E "Gerry" Mayers
        >> >
        >> > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
        >> > even
        >> > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in
        >> > the
        >> > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
        >> > from
        >> > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        >> > ----- Original Message -----
        >> > From: "Teej" <teej@>
        >> > To: <TalkAntietam@ <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>
        > yahoogroups.com>
        >> > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 9:58 AM
        >> > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Headquarters questions, etc.
        >> >
        >> >
        >> > >
        >> > > Gerry Mayers wrote:
        >> > >
        >> > > <Snip>
        >> > >
        >> > > However, does anyone know where
        >> > >> Jackson had his headquarters or were they, as Pope
        >> > >> infamously
        >> > >> said, "in the saddle"?
        >> > >
        >> > > This in no way answers your question, Gerry, but I'd
        >> > > like
        >> > > to point out
        >> > > that while Pope is often criticized for using that phrase,
        >> > > Stuart often
        >> > > wrote Flora that his "headquarters is in the saddle these
        >> > > days." I suspect
        >> > > that was a common cavalry phrase.
        >> > >
        >> > > Regards,
        >> > > Teej
        >> > >>
        >> > >
        >> > >
        >> > >
        >> > > ------------------------------------
        >> > >
        >> > >
        >> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >> > >
        >> > >
        >> > >
        >> > >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> > ------------------------------------
        >> >
        >> >
        >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >> >
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
      • G E Mayers
        Larry, What you say makes perfect sense and ties in with everything I have read. It is a fact that Jackson and Stuart very often worked closely together. It
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 8, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Larry,

          What you say makes perfect sense and ties in with everything I
          have read.

          It is a fact that Jackson and Stuart very often worked closely
          together. It would not surprise me that Stuart had "verbal"
          orders from Jackson to do precisely as you say or that the both
          of them had reviewed the sector where Jackson was posted and came
          to an agreement respecting division of forces.

          IIRC the term "corps" was being used rather loosely at the time
          and was pretty much understood as such, even though officially
          both Jackson and Longstreet commanded Wings of the Army of
          Northern Va. R E Lee was indeed considering how to effectively
          delegate control of portions of his army to senior lieutenants.
          If anything, the experience of The Seven Days taught him it is
          much easier to have a handful of trusted subordinated reporting
          directly to him rather than a dozen!

          Yr. Obt. Svt.
          G E "Gerry" Mayers

          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 1:09 PM
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Headquarters questions, etc.


          Gerry,

          Fortunately I have all three of Dr. Harsh's books with a pristine
          duplicate copy of "Taken at the Flood" signed by him since my
          original is marked up. I do see in von Borcke's book (160-1) that
          Jackson put Stuart in charge of the "left wing" of his corps even
          though there were no official Rebel "corps" then. But von Borcke
          is
          sometimes somewhat fast and loose with facts.

          Robert E. L. Krick says that Jackson and Stuart must have worked
          out
          some arrangement re the defense of the left flank since Jackson
          never
          visited Nicodemus Heights ("Defending Lee's Flank: J.E.B. Stuart,
          John Pelham, and COnfederate Artillery on Nicodemus Heights," in
          "The
          Antietam Campaign, ed. Gary W. Gallagher, pp. 201, 207-8, 217, n.
          11.
          Compare also Priest, Antietam, 30, 33, 59, 89; Blackford,
          149-150;
          Murfin, 235; Carman, 220, 221, 303.

          It is likely that Jackson verbally put Stuart in some sort of
          command
          since his troopers were on Jackson's left and also Stuart with
          his
          horse artillery with other artillery were on Nicodemus Hill then
          Hauser's Ridge. I will go with the above in the absence of harder
          evidence.

          Thank you,
          Larry

          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Dear Larry,
          >
          > I surmise you do not have the book in question. IIRC Harsh
          > documents Stuart's presence on Jackson's left flank very well.
          >
          > Tom Clemens, can you help here?
          >
          > Yr. Obt. Svt.
          > G E "Gerry" Mayers
          >
          > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
          > from
          > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
          > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 12:39 PM
          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Headquarters questions, etc.
          >
          >
          > Gerry,
          > Thanks, but mentioning it and documenting it can be two
          > different
          > things.
          >
          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Dear Larry,
          > >
          > > Do you have Taken at the Flood? Harsh has quite a mention of
          > > Stuart being on the left flank of Jackson, and in effect
          > > being
          > > the anchor of the left flank of Jackson and the Potomac River
          > > bend.
          > >
          > > I am not sure what you have been reading, but IIRC even
          > > Murfin
          > > and Sears mention it in their books.
          > >
          > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
          > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
          > >
          > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
          > > even
          > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in
          > > the
          > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
          > > from
          > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@>
          > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          > > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 12:03 PM
          > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: re Headquarters questions, etc.
          > >
          > >
          > > Tom,
          > >
          > > I guess legend probably also has Stuart in command on the
          > > left
          > > including the guns on Nicodemus Hill? I can't find anything
          > > in
          > > writing about this "command."
          > >
          > > Larry
          > >
          > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
          > > <clemenst@>
          > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Gerry,
          > > > There is no "official" source for it, legend has it that
          > > > Jackson
          > > used the Mary Locher cabin on the edge of West Woods. This
          > > is
          > > labeled on many maps as the Alfred Poffenberger farm. I am
          > > unaware
          > > of any proof for that assertion, but I've heard it mentioned.
          > > > I am not as convinced as many people are about Longstreet's
          > > > HQ.
          > > > No
          > > doubt Hill was at the Piper farm, butt he sources for L being
          > > there
          > > are "thin."
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          > > > Professor of History
          > > > Hagerstown Community College
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > >>> "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@> 08/08/08 10:09 AM >>>
          > > > Teej;
          > > >
          > > > Ok. Everything I have read seems to indicate that both
          > > > Stuart
          > > > and
          > > > Jackson had their headquarters "in the saddle" while at
          > > > Sharpsburg. I was wondering, though, whether Jackson in
          > > > particular had a reasonably "fixed" location where he could
          > > > be
          > > > found if needed.
          > > >
          > > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
          > > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
          > > >
          > > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
          > > > even
          > > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in
          > > > the
          > > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
          > > > from
          > > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          > > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > > From: "Teej" <teej@>
          > > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          > > > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 9:58 AM
          > > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] re Headquarters questions, etc.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Gerry Mayers wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > <Snip>
          > > > >
          > > > > However, does anyone know where
          > > > >> Jackson had his headquarters or were they, as Pope
          > > > >> infamously
          > > > >> said, "in the saddle"?
          > > > >
          > > > > This in no way answers your question, Gerry, but I'd
          > > > > like
          > > > > to point out
          > > > > that while Pope is often criticized for using that
          > > > > phrase,
          > > > > Stuart often
          > > > > wrote Flora that his "headquarters is in the saddle these
          > > > > days." I suspect
          > > > > that was a common cavalry phrase.
          > > > >
          > > > > Regards,
          > > > > Teej
          > > > >>
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > ------------------------------------
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > ------------------------------------
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > > >
          > >
          >
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