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Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Little Known Places at Antietam

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  • kamills
    Tom Thank you. I appreciate the help. Is this part of the battlefield, that you can tour, or is it privately owned? How important was this position as an
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 18, 2002
      Tom

      Thank you. I appreciate the help. Is this part of the
      battlefield, that you can tour, or is it privately owned? How
      important was this position as an artillery placement? I have
      heard both that is significantly helped the 1st phase to it was
      about worthless.

      Thank you
      Andy

      ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------

      It is west of the Rt. 65 bypass. Just north of the West Woods
      you'll see a farm with a large white house and a barn behind it.
      The cleared ridge behind the barn is Nicodemus Hts.
    • Tom Clemens
      Andy, It is within the boundary, under scenic easement and cannot be developed, but privately owned. It is off-limits w/o permission of the owners, and they
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 18, 2002
        Andy,
        It is within the boundary, under scenic easement and cannot be developed, but
        privately owned. It is off-limits w/o permission of the owners, and they are
        quirky. The last time I went up there I called the son, who was very
        accommodating, but when I got there the old man gave all kinds of grief.
        Luckily I was touring a group of Marines, who didn't intimidate very easily.
        It is a nice view from there, but Pelham was gone from there by 6:30 am. Joe
        Harsh downplays its importance, and makes a good case, but I think it still
        held strong strategic value. The high ground behind J. Poffenberger's house
        is higher, and commands the ridge, but if the Federals had acquired it then
        it might have been a very different story.
        Tom

        kamills wrote:

        > Tom
        >
        > Thank you. I appreciate the help. Is this part of the
        > battlefield, that you can tour, or is it privately owned? How
        > important was this position as an artillery placement? I have
        > heard both that is significantly helped the 1st phase to it was
        > about worthless.
        >
        > Thank you
        > Andy
        >
        > ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
        >
        > It is west of the Rt. 65 bypass. Just north of the West Woods
        > you'll see a farm with a large white house and a barn behind it.
        > The cleared ridge behind the barn is Nicodemus Hts.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      • NJ Rebel
        Tom; Would this have been before Anderson s Brigade moved from somewhat near the present cemetery up through the Piper Swale to the Sunken Road? That would be
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 18, 2002
          Tom;

          Would this have been before Anderson's Brigade moved from
          somewhat near the present cemetery up through the Piper Swale to
          the Sunken Road?

          That would be the only way I could see some NC boys being killed
          by the same shell...unless it was NC boys in units other than
          those belonging to Anderson.

          Your humble servant,
          Gerry Mayers
          Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
          Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry

          A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

          http://home.earthlink.net/~gerry1952/index.html

          "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
          on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
          Edward Lee


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Tom Clemens" <clemens@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, January 18, 2002 1:50 PM
          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Little Known Places at Antietam


          > Tom Shay,
          > We're pretty close. Why we chose the closer location was:
          > 1. Lee was on the hill all day and I don't think he traveled
          very far up the
          > ridge.
          > 2. The full account mentions the shell continued down the hill
          and struck in the
          > ranks of NC regiment and killed a few men. The regiment was
          described as resting
          > on the outskirts of the town. So if you go too far up the ridge
          the trajectoy
          > from Weed's guns on the Ecker farm takes you awy from town not
          towards it.
          > 3. Another source said about 75 yards north of the turnpike.
          >
          > This is all from memory, so be generous with you criticism.
          > Tom
          > rotbaron@... wrote:
          >
          > > In a message dated 01/18/2002 0:49:53 AM EST,
          clemens@... writes:
          > > << Basically it is the knoll in Mt. View Cemetery across from
          the National
          > > Cemetery. Joe Harsh and I scouted this a few years back.
          Second alternative
          > > is the ridge just to the north, but I think the cemetery is
          correct.
          > > Surprisingly good view from there. >>
          > >
          > > Scouting the battlefield with Joe Harsh......ah, to dream!
          > >
          > > During anniversary tours a few months ago, I attended Keith
          Snyder's tour of
          > > the middle of the Rebel line. We met at parking lot on
          Boonsboro Pike across
          > > from cemetery and headed east/northeast. As we reached the
          crest of
          > > ridgeline, I asked Keith where he thinks the incident (Hill's
          horse being hit
          > > by shell) occurred. He felt it was likely in this area. So we
          certainly have
          > > at least two options to choose from!
          > >
          > > Tom Shay
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          > ADVERTISEMENT
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • TR Livesey
          See http://www.westwoodgalleries.com/antietam/tour/n_woods/niclos.html for a map that shows the region around Nicodemous heights; actually, it shows what you
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 18, 2002
            See http://www.westwoodgalleries.com/antietam/tour/n_woods/niclos.html for a map
            that shows the region around Nicodemous heights; actually, it shows what
            you should be able to see from there.

            Regards,
            TR Livesey
            tlivesey@...

            kamills wrote:

            > Since we are talking about landscapes, where exactly is Nicodemous
            > Heights? I have been to Antietam many times, but still have a
            > hard time with this location.
            >
            > Thank you
            > Andy
            >
            > ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
            >
            > Tony,
            > Basically it is the knoll in Mt. View Cemetery across from the
            > National Cemetery. Joe Harsh and I scouted this a few years back.
            > Second alternative is the ridge just toteh north, but I think the
            > cemetery is correct. Surprisingly good view from there.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Tom Clemens
            Gerry, I don t remember off-hand, but I think it is Joe s book, maybe STS, not TAF.
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 18, 2002
              Gerry,
              I don't remember off-hand, but I think it is Joe's book, maybe STS, not TAF.

              NJ Rebel wrote:

              > Tom;
              >
              > Would this have been before Anderson's Brigade moved from
              > somewhat near the present cemetery up through the Piper Swale to
              > the Sunken Road?
              >
              > That would be the only way I could see some NC boys being killed
              > by the same shell...unless it was NC boys in units other than
              > those belonging to Anderson.
              >
              > Your humble servant,
              > Gerry Mayers
              > Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
              > Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry
              >
              > A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!
              >
              > http://home.earthlink.net/~gerry1952/index.html
              >
              > "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
              > on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
              > Edward Lee
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Tom Clemens" <clemens@...>
              > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2002 1:50 PM
              > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Little Known Places at Antietam
              >
              > > Tom Shay,
              > > We're pretty close. Why we chose the closer location was:
              > > 1. Lee was on the hill all day and I don't think he traveled
              > very far up the
              > > ridge.
              > > 2. The full account mentions the shell continued down the hill
              > and struck in the
              > > ranks of NC regiment and killed a few men. The regiment was
              > described as resting
              > > on the outskirts of the town. So if you go too far up the ridge
              > the trajectoy
              > > from Weed's guns on the Ecker farm takes you awy from town not
              > towards it.
              > > 3. Another source said about 75 yards north of the turnpike.
              > >
              > > This is all from memory, so be generous with you criticism.
              > > Tom
              > > rotbaron@... wrote:
              > >
              > > > In a message dated 01/18/2002 0:49:53 AM EST,
              > clemens@... writes:
              > > > << Basically it is the knoll in Mt. View Cemetery across from
              > the National
              > > > Cemetery. Joe Harsh and I scouted this a few years back.
              > Second alternative
              > > > is the ridge just to the north, but I think the cemetery is
              > correct.
              > > > Surprisingly good view from there. >>
              > > >
              > > > Scouting the battlefield with Joe Harsh......ah, to dream!
              > > >
              > > > During anniversary tours a few months ago, I attended Keith
              > Snyder's tour of
              > > > the middle of the Rebel line. We met at parking lot on
              > Boonsboro Pike across
              > > > from cemetery and headed east/northeast. As we reached the
              > crest of
              > > > ridgeline, I asked Keith where he thinks the incident (Hill's
              > horse being hit
              > > > by shell) occurred. He felt it was likely in this area. So we
              > certainly have
              > > > at least two options to choose from!
              > > >
              > > > Tom Shay
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              > > ADVERTISEMENT
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              > Service.
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • Bill or Glenna Jo Christen
              suggestions... The camps of the Ninth Corps troops on the night before the battle. In fact, I would like to see a good map of all troop positions on the 16th
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 19, 2002
                suggestions...

                The camps of the Ninth Corps troops on the night before the battle. In fact, I would like to see a good map of all troop
                positions on the 16th and on the night before the battle.

                Where was Jackson's HQ at the start of the battle?

                Where in the West Woods was Oliver W. Holmes, Jr. standing when he was wounded? and where was he eventually found?

                Bill Christen
              • TR Livesey
                Here are a few suggestions I would add... The southeast corner of Otto s 40 acre cornfield. Nifty place if you know where to cut through the brambles. You can
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 19, 2002
                  Here are a few suggestions I would add...

                  The southeast corner of Otto's 40 acre cornfield. Nifty place if you know where to cut
                  through the brambles. You can see where the 4th RI made its 'stand'.

                  The extreme right flank of the Federal line, near the Nicodemus house. We've all
                  been there, but if you are not whizzing by at 50 m.p.h on the bypass, there is
                  some very interesting terrain, particularly where a gully opens up to
                  the east, used by Gibbon's (and others troops) to move east/west.

                  The Reel farm. There is the well known photograph of the burned out Reel
                  farm, but few actually visit the spot.

                  The bluffs on the south side of the Boonsboro turnpike, looking down on
                  the Newcomer farm, where Pleasonton's calvary fanned out. The area is
                  readily accessible, but rarely visited.

                  The Sharpsburg ridge. Such a big feature, it is hard to recognize up close,
                  but if you trace it from the Middlekauf farm southward to the visitor's center,
                  and then westward where it runs off the battlefield, you can see how the battle
                  pivoted along the crest line.

                  The west slope of the Porterstown ridge, between the lower and middle bridges,
                  alone the line of Federal Artillery. Great view looking westward over the
                  battlefield.

                  The peak of the hill where the Antietam bends, held by the 50th GA (not the
                  Georgian overlook). Very wooded today, was wooded then too.

                  All locations described above are in the park, and no trespassing is required.

                  Regards,
                  TR Livesey
                  tlivesey@...
                • NJ Rebel
                  Bill; Those are good questions. However, the camps of all the troops of the Ninth Corps might have been on the ridges back beyond the Lower Bridge on the farm
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 19, 2002
                    Bill;

                    Those are good questions. However, the camps of all the troops of
                    the Ninth Corps might have been on the ridges back beyond the
                    Lower Bridge on the farm now presently used by groups as a group
                    campsite and certainly spread out in that general area. This is
                    my opinion but have nothing solid on this.

                    As to Jackson's HQ the morning of the battle, everything I have
                    read seems to indicate a very flexible "HQ" centered around the
                    West Woods area.

                    As to Holmes, I wonder if the monument to the Philadelphia
                    Brigade accurately positions the middle of the brigade's lines at
                    the time of their halt in the West Woods. To accurately pinpoint
                    Holmes's location in the battle line might require a knowledge of
                    where both his regiment and his company were situated. Wonder if
                    Holmes himself ever left any writings about where he was at the
                    time he was shot in the neck?

                    Your humble servant,
                    Gerry Mayers
                    Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
                    Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry

                    A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

                    http://home.earthlink.net/~gerry1952/index.html

                    "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
                    on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
                    Edward Lee


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Bill or Glenna Jo Christen" <gwjchris@...>
                    To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 11:39 AM
                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Little Known Places at Antietam


                    >
                    > suggestions...
                    >
                    > The camps of the Ninth Corps troops on the night before the
                    battle. In fact, I would like to see a good map of all troop
                    > positions on the 16th and on the night before the battle.
                    >
                    > Where was Jackson's HQ at the start of the battle?
                    >
                    > Where in the West Woods was Oliver W. Holmes, Jr. standing when
                    he was wounded? and where was he eventually found?
                    >
                    > Bill Christen
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    Service.
                    >
                    >
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