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Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Little Known Places at Antietam

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  • Tom Clemens
    Tony, Basically it is the knoll in Mt. View Cemetery across from the National Cemetery. Joe Harsh and I scouted this a few years back. Second alternative is
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 17, 2002
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      Tony,
      Basically it is the knoll in Mt. View Cemetery across from the National Cemetery. Joe Harsh and I scouted this a few years back.
      Second alternative is the ridge just toteh north, but I think the cemetery is correct. Surprisingly good view from there.


      "Anthony W. Turner" wrote:

      > On Thu, 17 Jan 2002, rotbaron@... wrote:
      >
      > >> I plan to co-host a tour of little known places around the Gettysburg battlefield. The list originated from two Guides who
      > put together a list of "140 Places Every Guide Should Know" ... I was
      > wondering if we could have some offerings from the group toward a
      > similar list for Antietam. <<
      >
      > Sears and other Antietam authors tell of "an exposed knoll near the
      > Hagerstown turnpike where Gens. Lee, Longstreet and D.H. Hill met to
      > view the advance of Gen. Wm. H. French's division toward the Sunken
      > Road. Hill rode atop the knoll, I believe, in view of Federal
      > artellerists who proceeded to lob a shell which blew off the forelegs of
      > his horse. The horse angled foreward but did not fall. "Hill was in a
      > most ludicrous position," Longstreet wrote later.
      >
      > Where exactly is the knoll, assuming it's still there? Can visitors be
      > led to stand atop it and see where the federal artillery came from?
      >
      > Tony Turner
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    • rotbaron@aol.com
      In a message dated 01/18/2002 0:49:53 AM EST, clemens@crosslink.net writes:
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 18, 2002
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        In a message dated 01/18/2002 0:49:53 AM EST, clemens@... writes:
        << Basically it is the knoll in Mt. View Cemetery across from the National
        Cemetery. Joe Harsh and I scouted this a few years back. Second alternative
        is the ridge just to the north, but I think the cemetery is correct.
        Surprisingly good view from there. >>

        Scouting the battlefield with Joe Harsh......ah, to dream!

        During anniversary tours a few months ago, I attended Keith Snyder's tour of
        the middle of the Rebel line. We met at parking lot on Boonsboro Pike across
        from cemetery and headed east/northeast. As we reached the crest of
        ridgeline, I asked Keith where he thinks the incident (Hill's horse being hit
        by shell) occurred. He felt it was likely in this area. So we certainly have
        at least two options to choose from!

        Tom Shay
      • kamills
        Since we are talking about landscapes, where exactly is Nicodemous Heights? I have been to Antietam many times, but still have a hard time with this location.
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 18, 2002
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          Since we are talking about landscapes, where exactly is Nicodemous
          Heights? I have been to Antietam many times, but still have a
          hard time with this location.

          Thank you
          Andy

          ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------

          Tony,
          Basically it is the knoll in Mt. View Cemetery across from the
          National Cemetery. Joe Harsh and I scouted this a few years back.
          Second alternative is the ridge just toteh north, but I think the
          cemetery is correct. Surprisingly good view from there.
        • Tom Clemens
          Tom Shay, We re pretty close. Why we chose the closer location was: 1. Lee was on the hill all day and I don t think he traveled very far up the ridge. 2. The
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 18, 2002
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            Tom Shay,
            We're pretty close. Why we chose the closer location was:
            1. Lee was on the hill all day and I don't think he traveled very far up the
            ridge.
            2. The full account mentions the shell continued down the hill and struck in the
            ranks of NC regiment and killed a few men. The regiment was described as resting
            on the outskirts of the town. So if you go too far up the ridge the trajectoy
            from Weed's guns on the Ecker farm takes you awy from town not towards it.
            3. Another source said about 75 yards north of the turnpike.

            This is all from memory, so be generous with you criticism.
            Tom
            rotbaron@... wrote:

            > In a message dated 01/18/2002 0:49:53 AM EST, clemens@... writes:
            > << Basically it is the knoll in Mt. View Cemetery across from the National
            > Cemetery. Joe Harsh and I scouted this a few years back. Second alternative
            > is the ridge just to the north, but I think the cemetery is correct.
            > Surprisingly good view from there. >>
            >
            > Scouting the battlefield with Joe Harsh......ah, to dream!
            >
            > During anniversary tours a few months ago, I attended Keith Snyder's tour of
            > the middle of the Rebel line. We met at parking lot on Boonsboro Pike across
            > from cemetery and headed east/northeast. As we reached the crest of
            > ridgeline, I asked Keith where he thinks the incident (Hill's horse being hit
            > by shell) occurred. He felt it was likely in this area. So we certainly have
            > at least two options to choose from!
            >
            > Tom Shay
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • Tom Clemens
            It is west of the Rt. 65 bypass. Just north of the West Woods you ll see a farm with a large white house and a barn behind it. The cleared ridge behind the
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 18, 2002
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              It is west of the Rt. 65 bypass. Just north of the West Woods you'll see a
              farm with a large white house and a barn behind it. The cleared ridge behind
              the barn is Nicodemus Hts.


              kamills wrote:

              > Since we are talking about landscapes, where exactly is Nicodemous
              > Heights? I have been to Antietam many times, but still have a
              > hard time with this location.
              >
              > Thank you
              > Andy
              >
              > ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
              >
              > Tony,
              > Basically it is the knoll in Mt. View Cemetery across from the
              > National Cemetery. Joe Harsh and I scouted this a few years back.
              > Second alternative is the ridge just toteh north, but I think the
              > cemetery is correct. Surprisingly good view from there.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • kamills
              Tom Thank you. I appreciate the help. Is this part of the battlefield, that you can tour, or is it privately owned? How important was this position as an
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 18, 2002
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                Tom

                Thank you. I appreciate the help. Is this part of the
                battlefield, that you can tour, or is it privately owned? How
                important was this position as an artillery placement? I have
                heard both that is significantly helped the 1st phase to it was
                about worthless.

                Thank you
                Andy

                ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------

                It is west of the Rt. 65 bypass. Just north of the West Woods
                you'll see a farm with a large white house and a barn behind it.
                The cleared ridge behind the barn is Nicodemus Hts.
              • Tom Clemens
                Andy, It is within the boundary, under scenic easement and cannot be developed, but privately owned. It is off-limits w/o permission of the owners, and they
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 18, 2002
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                  Andy,
                  It is within the boundary, under scenic easement and cannot be developed, but
                  privately owned. It is off-limits w/o permission of the owners, and they are
                  quirky. The last time I went up there I called the son, who was very
                  accommodating, but when I got there the old man gave all kinds of grief.
                  Luckily I was touring a group of Marines, who didn't intimidate very easily.
                  It is a nice view from there, but Pelham was gone from there by 6:30 am. Joe
                  Harsh downplays its importance, and makes a good case, but I think it still
                  held strong strategic value. The high ground behind J. Poffenberger's house
                  is higher, and commands the ridge, but if the Federals had acquired it then
                  it might have been a very different story.
                  Tom

                  kamills wrote:

                  > Tom
                  >
                  > Thank you. I appreciate the help. Is this part of the
                  > battlefield, that you can tour, or is it privately owned? How
                  > important was this position as an artillery placement? I have
                  > heard both that is significantly helped the 1st phase to it was
                  > about worthless.
                  >
                  > Thank you
                  > Andy
                  >
                  > ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
                  >
                  > It is west of the Rt. 65 bypass. Just north of the West Woods
                  > you'll see a farm with a large white house and a barn behind it.
                  > The cleared ridge behind the barn is Nicodemus Hts.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • NJ Rebel
                  Tom; Would this have been before Anderson s Brigade moved from somewhat near the present cemetery up through the Piper Swale to the Sunken Road? That would be
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 18, 2002
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                    Tom;

                    Would this have been before Anderson's Brigade moved from
                    somewhat near the present cemetery up through the Piper Swale to
                    the Sunken Road?

                    That would be the only way I could see some NC boys being killed
                    by the same shell...unless it was NC boys in units other than
                    those belonging to Anderson.

                    Your humble servant,
                    Gerry Mayers
                    Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
                    Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry

                    A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

                    http://home.earthlink.net/~gerry1952/index.html

                    "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
                    on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
                    Edward Lee


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Tom Clemens" <clemens@...>
                    To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Friday, January 18, 2002 1:50 PM
                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Little Known Places at Antietam


                    > Tom Shay,
                    > We're pretty close. Why we chose the closer location was:
                    > 1. Lee was on the hill all day and I don't think he traveled
                    very far up the
                    > ridge.
                    > 2. The full account mentions the shell continued down the hill
                    and struck in the
                    > ranks of NC regiment and killed a few men. The regiment was
                    described as resting
                    > on the outskirts of the town. So if you go too far up the ridge
                    the trajectoy
                    > from Weed's guns on the Ecker farm takes you awy from town not
                    towards it.
                    > 3. Another source said about 75 yards north of the turnpike.
                    >
                    > This is all from memory, so be generous with you criticism.
                    > Tom
                    > rotbaron@... wrote:
                    >
                    > > In a message dated 01/18/2002 0:49:53 AM EST,
                    clemens@... writes:
                    > > << Basically it is the knoll in Mt. View Cemetery across from
                    the National
                    > > Cemetery. Joe Harsh and I scouted this a few years back.
                    Second alternative
                    > > is the ridge just to the north, but I think the cemetery is
                    correct.
                    > > Surprisingly good view from there. >>
                    > >
                    > > Scouting the battlefield with Joe Harsh......ah, to dream!
                    > >
                    > > During anniversary tours a few months ago, I attended Keith
                    Snyder's tour of
                    > > the middle of the Rebel line. We met at parking lot on
                    Boonsboro Pike across
                    > > from cemetery and headed east/northeast. As we reached the
                    crest of
                    > > ridgeline, I asked Keith where he thinks the incident (Hill's
                    horse being hit
                    > > by shell) occurred. He felt it was likely in this area. So we
                    certainly have
                    > > at least two options to choose from!
                    > >
                    > > Tom Shay
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                    > ADVERTISEMENT
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    Service.
                    >
                    >
                  • TR Livesey
                    See http://www.westwoodgalleries.com/antietam/tour/n_woods/niclos.html for a map that shows the region around Nicodemous heights; actually, it shows what you
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jan 18, 2002
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                      See http://www.westwoodgalleries.com/antietam/tour/n_woods/niclos.html for a map
                      that shows the region around Nicodemous heights; actually, it shows what
                      you should be able to see from there.

                      Regards,
                      TR Livesey
                      tlivesey@...

                      kamills wrote:

                      > Since we are talking about landscapes, where exactly is Nicodemous
                      > Heights? I have been to Antietam many times, but still have a
                      > hard time with this location.
                      >
                      > Thank you
                      > Andy
                      >
                      > ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
                      >
                      > Tony,
                      > Basically it is the knoll in Mt. View Cemetery across from the
                      > National Cemetery. Joe Harsh and I scouted this a few years back.
                      > Second alternative is the ridge just toteh north, but I think the
                      > cemetery is correct. Surprisingly good view from there.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Tom Clemens
                      Gerry, I don t remember off-hand, but I think it is Joe s book, maybe STS, not TAF.
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jan 18, 2002
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                        Gerry,
                        I don't remember off-hand, but I think it is Joe's book, maybe STS, not TAF.

                        NJ Rebel wrote:

                        > Tom;
                        >
                        > Would this have been before Anderson's Brigade moved from
                        > somewhat near the present cemetery up through the Piper Swale to
                        > the Sunken Road?
                        >
                        > That would be the only way I could see some NC boys being killed
                        > by the same shell...unless it was NC boys in units other than
                        > those belonging to Anderson.
                        >
                        > Your humble servant,
                        > Gerry Mayers
                        > Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
                        > Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry
                        >
                        > A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!
                        >
                        > http://home.earthlink.net/~gerry1952/index.html
                        >
                        > "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
                        > on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
                        > Edward Lee
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "Tom Clemens" <clemens@...>
                        > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2002 1:50 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Little Known Places at Antietam
                        >
                        > > Tom Shay,
                        > > We're pretty close. Why we chose the closer location was:
                        > > 1. Lee was on the hill all day and I don't think he traveled
                        > very far up the
                        > > ridge.
                        > > 2. The full account mentions the shell continued down the hill
                        > and struck in the
                        > > ranks of NC regiment and killed a few men. The regiment was
                        > described as resting
                        > > on the outskirts of the town. So if you go too far up the ridge
                        > the trajectoy
                        > > from Weed's guns on the Ecker farm takes you awy from town not
                        > towards it.
                        > > 3. Another source said about 75 yards north of the turnpike.
                        > >
                        > > This is all from memory, so be generous with you criticism.
                        > > Tom
                        > > rotbaron@... wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > In a message dated 01/18/2002 0:49:53 AM EST,
                        > clemens@... writes:
                        > > > << Basically it is the knoll in Mt. View Cemetery across from
                        > the National
                        > > > Cemetery. Joe Harsh and I scouted this a few years back.
                        > Second alternative
                        > > > is the ridge just to the north, but I think the cemetery is
                        > correct.
                        > > > Surprisingly good view from there. >>
                        > > >
                        > > > Scouting the battlefield with Joe Harsh......ah, to dream!
                        > > >
                        > > > During anniversary tours a few months ago, I attended Keith
                        > Snyder's tour of
                        > > > the middle of the Rebel line. We met at parking lot on
                        > Boonsboro Pike across
                        > > > from cemetery and headed east/northeast. As we reached the
                        > crest of
                        > > > ridgeline, I asked Keith where he thinks the incident (Hill's
                        > horse being hit
                        > > > by shell) occurred. He felt it was likely in this area. So we
                        > certainly have
                        > > > at least two options to choose from!
                        > > >
                        > > > Tom Shay
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        > > ADVERTISEMENT
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                        > Service.
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      • Bill or Glenna Jo Christen
                        suggestions... The camps of the Ninth Corps troops on the night before the battle. In fact, I would like to see a good map of all troop positions on the 16th
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jan 19, 2002
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                          suggestions...

                          The camps of the Ninth Corps troops on the night before the battle. In fact, I would like to see a good map of all troop
                          positions on the 16th and on the night before the battle.

                          Where was Jackson's HQ at the start of the battle?

                          Where in the West Woods was Oliver W. Holmes, Jr. standing when he was wounded? and where was he eventually found?

                          Bill Christen
                        • TR Livesey
                          Here are a few suggestions I would add... The southeast corner of Otto s 40 acre cornfield. Nifty place if you know where to cut through the brambles. You can
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jan 19, 2002
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                            Here are a few suggestions I would add...

                            The southeast corner of Otto's 40 acre cornfield. Nifty place if you know where to cut
                            through the brambles. You can see where the 4th RI made its 'stand'.

                            The extreme right flank of the Federal line, near the Nicodemus house. We've all
                            been there, but if you are not whizzing by at 50 m.p.h on the bypass, there is
                            some very interesting terrain, particularly where a gully opens up to
                            the east, used by Gibbon's (and others troops) to move east/west.

                            The Reel farm. There is the well known photograph of the burned out Reel
                            farm, but few actually visit the spot.

                            The bluffs on the south side of the Boonsboro turnpike, looking down on
                            the Newcomer farm, where Pleasonton's calvary fanned out. The area is
                            readily accessible, but rarely visited.

                            The Sharpsburg ridge. Such a big feature, it is hard to recognize up close,
                            but if you trace it from the Middlekauf farm southward to the visitor's center,
                            and then westward where it runs off the battlefield, you can see how the battle
                            pivoted along the crest line.

                            The west slope of the Porterstown ridge, between the lower and middle bridges,
                            alone the line of Federal Artillery. Great view looking westward over the
                            battlefield.

                            The peak of the hill where the Antietam bends, held by the 50th GA (not the
                            Georgian overlook). Very wooded today, was wooded then too.

                            All locations described above are in the park, and no trespassing is required.

                            Regards,
                            TR Livesey
                            tlivesey@...
                          • NJ Rebel
                            Bill; Those are good questions. However, the camps of all the troops of the Ninth Corps might have been on the ridges back beyond the Lower Bridge on the farm
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jan 19, 2002
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                              Bill;

                              Those are good questions. However, the camps of all the troops of
                              the Ninth Corps might have been on the ridges back beyond the
                              Lower Bridge on the farm now presently used by groups as a group
                              campsite and certainly spread out in that general area. This is
                              my opinion but have nothing solid on this.

                              As to Jackson's HQ the morning of the battle, everything I have
                              read seems to indicate a very flexible "HQ" centered around the
                              West Woods area.

                              As to Holmes, I wonder if the monument to the Philadelphia
                              Brigade accurately positions the middle of the brigade's lines at
                              the time of their halt in the West Woods. To accurately pinpoint
                              Holmes's location in the battle line might require a knowledge of
                              where both his regiment and his company were situated. Wonder if
                              Holmes himself ever left any writings about where he was at the
                              time he was shot in the neck?

                              Your humble servant,
                              Gerry Mayers
                              Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
                              Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry

                              A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

                              http://home.earthlink.net/~gerry1952/index.html

                              "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
                              on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
                              Edward Lee


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Bill or Glenna Jo Christen" <gwjchris@...>
                              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 11:39 AM
                              Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Little Known Places at Antietam


                              >
                              > suggestions...
                              >
                              > The camps of the Ninth Corps troops on the night before the
                              battle. In fact, I would like to see a good map of all troop
                              > positions on the 16th and on the night before the battle.
                              >
                              > Where was Jackson's HQ at the start of the battle?
                              >
                              > Where in the West Woods was Oliver W. Holmes, Jr. standing when
                              he was wounded? and where was he eventually found?
                              >
                              > Bill Christen
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                              Service.
                              >
                              >
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