Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: "Unfurl those colors!"

Expand Messages
  • G E Mayers
    Harry; Good point.... Let s consider Mac s frame of mind, and the fact that as a very well trained engineer (which he was) he is bound to be cautious and
    Message 1 of 53 , May 11, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      Harry;

      Good point.... Let's consider Mac's frame of mind, and the fact
      that as a very well trained engineer (which he was) he is bound
      to be cautious and extremely methodical in what he does. What he
      has to go on, despite what might be evidence to the contrary
      about the strength of the ANV, is that every advance of the
      various Corps of his Army of the Potomac (namely 1st, 12th and
      2nd -- Sedgwick - but prior to the successful taking of the
      Sunken Road by the other two divisions of the 2nd Corps despite
      further lack of support) has, as you mentioned in other posts
      since your post of Friday (which I am only now answering having
      been away from the computer much of the weekend), been stopped
      COLD.

      Would you, were you Mac, logically conclude that Lee must be
      holding back major reserves of his army to counter any attacks I
      might make on his lines? Might you also conclude, somewhat
      logically, that Lee would like nothing better than to draw the
      only effective defense of Washington City into a situation where
      your army can be defeated/destroyed much like Napoleon's classic
      battles or as at Cannae?

      Much has been said recently about Mahan and his writings at West
      Point and his influence on the cadets there. Recently I have been
      reading how French was taught very intensively to the cadets
      during the 1820s onward at USMA, and I wonder how many of the
      cadets who later became CW generals, like Lee, took the
      instruction Jomini provided in his book on War to heart by
      clearly understanding the original French? Perhaps some of the
      problem with Mahan etc was their attempts to translate from the
      original French into English and thereby losing some of the
      subtle nuances found in the original text?

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Harry Smeltzer" <hjs21@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 3:41 PM
      Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: "Unfurl those colors!"


      > Gerry,
      >
      > Did anything occur up until that point to indicate he was wrong
      > in that assumption?
      >
      > Harry
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: G E Mayers
      > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 12:07 PM
      > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: "Unfurl those colors!"
      >
      >
      > Let's not forget Mac is still dealing with the belief that he
      > is
      > outnumbered.....
      >
      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
      >
      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
      > even
      > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
      > from
      > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: <DPowell334@...>
      > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 11:50 AM
      > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: "Unfurl those colors!"
      >
      > >
      > >
      > > In a message dated 5/9/2008 7:51:21 A.M. Central Standard
      > Time,
      > > hjs21@... writes:
      > >
      > > Given the overall strategic situation of the AotP at that
      > > point (after the
      > > West Woods), and what could be reasonably assumed about the
      > > capabilities of
      > > the AoNV based on the actions up to that point, would it
      > have
      > > been
      > > reasonable for Sumner to assume that all available forces
      > > would be committed
      > > to the offensive? Is it reasonable for us to conclude that
      > > they should have
      > > been committed to an offensive?
      > >
      > >
      > > Yes, as long as Mac is also going to continue the attack in
      > the
      > > south.
      > > Otherwise, if he pulls back in the north/center, and lets
      > > Burnsides go forward, he
      > > is effectively committing the 9th Corps to a forlorn hope
      > > without support.
      > > That's a fundamental tactical error.
      > >
      > > On the other hand, if he does fear a counter-stroke, then it
      > > would be wise
      > > to go over to a defense across the board.
      > >
      > > If Mac does not believe he can win, why is he attacking?
      > > Conversely, by
      > > pressing the attack without commitment of the reserves, is
      > he
      > > just going through
      > > the motions?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > RE: Armstong's "reaching", I agree. Overall, I think the
      > book
      > > is a good
      > > tactical study at the corps level and below, but it falls
      > > short as it
      > > expands.
      > >
      > > I think Sumner fears to attack again, and does not expect to
      > be
      > > ordered to.
      > > Armstrong wants us to think that Sumner is telling Mac that
      > > only a full effort
      > > in the center will work, and that only by inference. I think
      > > Armstrong is
      > > drawing too much inference from a whole lot of unstated
      > > supposition.
      > >
      > > The book delivers some very solid analysis, and some not so
      > > solid. In this
      > > case, I think he is trying to put the best face on Sumner's
      > > actions, here.
      > > While in general I am a Sumner fan, I am not convinced that
      > > Sumner wasn't rattled
      > > that afternoon.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > RE: Mahan on reserves, he did espouse the commitment of
      > > reserves to the
      > > offensive "to profit from [the main body's] success in
      > > accomplishing the
      > > complete overthrow of the enemy." (That's on page 48 of
      > > Out-Post.) I
      > > don't think that applies here, as nothing up to that point
      > > indicated that
      > > the complete overthrow of the enemy was reasonably
      > achievable.
      > > And
      > > certainly after the arrival of a new and large force on the
      > > left flank,
      > > complete overthrow had to have been viewed as even less
      > > likely.
      > >
      > > Harry
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > I see. I thought you were saying that Mahan saw reserves as
      > > defensive in
      > > nature.
      > >
      > > As to the situation at hand, I still think you have this
      > > dilemma to resolve,
      > > then, if we adopt your view. First, as to timing, I think
      > you
      > > are bringing
      > > the "new force on the left" in too soon. Mac and Sumner seem
      > to
      > > be making this
      > > decision in the early afternoon, as the 9th Corps is
      > crossing
      > > and continuing
      > > the attack - probably during the latter's pause. So Mac has
      > > not yet seen
      > > the new force effect the battle.
      > >
      > > So why does he let the 9th keep attacking if he finds it
      > > unreasonable to
      > > commit his reserves? If he is going to attack, he owes it to
      > > both his plan and
      > > the lives of the men he is ordering forward to support them
      > as
      > > best he can -
      > > and that is either by committing 5th/6th across the middle
      > > bridge to support
      > > 9th's drive, or by using them in the 2nd Corps area to pin
      > > Lee's Reserves.
      > >
      > > In fact, Mac's entire plan suffers from this dysfunction,
      > which
      > > we see signs
      > > of on the 16th. In later years, his version of what he wants
      > to
      > > achieve
      > > continues to evolve, and that's why - because the original
      > plan
      > > is somewhat
      > > incoherent.
      > >
      > > Dave Powell
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      > > [mailto:TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com] On
      > > Behalf Of DPowell334@...
      > > Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 6:52 AM
      > > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: "Unfurl those colors!"
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > I find this confusing.
      > >
      > > Mahan definitely taught that a reserve was 'disposable' for
      > > offense. Even
      > > the language quoted by Armstrong makes that pretty clear.
      > >
      > > Frankly, I think Armstrong is reaching, here. Nothing in
      > > Sumner's messages
      > > is encouraging of an attack. In fact, I think Sumner
      > expected
      > > to be
      > > attacked,
      > > and that Mac agreed with him.
      > >
      > > Dave Powell
      > >
      > >
      > > In a message dated 5/8/2008 8:01:31 P.M. Central Daylight
      > > Time,
      > > hjs21@comcast. <mailto:hjs21%40comcast.net> net writes:
      > >
      > > I guess I read it differently. With 6th Corps already on the
      > > field, what
      > > Armstrong is saying is that Sumner expected McClellan to
      > > commit the reserve
      > > (5th Corps) to an offensive. This after he spent time
      > > explaining why Sumner
      > > made his own force's disposition as he did, including a
      > > reserve. I don't
      > > think Mahan taught that a reserve was disposable for
      > offense,
      > > and neither
      > > did Armstrong describe it as such.
      > >
      > > Harry
      > >
      > > **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new
      > > twists on family
      > > favorites at AOL Food.
      > > (http://food.
      > >
      > <http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001>
      > > aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > **************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new
      > > twists on family
      > > favorites at AOL Food.
      > >
      > (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
    • G E Mayers
      Ok. Thanks.... Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one s mother s side, is an introduction to
      Message 53 of 53 , May 30, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Ok. Thanks....

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 1:17 PM
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Beaver Creek


        Gerry,

        From the map I have, it looks like Beaver Creek starts on South
        Mountain near RT 64 about 10 miles NE of Boonsboro and then heads
        SW
        roughly following RT 66. Then NW of Boonsboro just south of the
        Old
        National Pike it joins with Little Beaver Creek and heads SW to
        join
        Antietam Creek at RT 68. Beaver Creek is not west of Boonsboro
        but
        rather to the north.

        Larry F.


        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Dear Tom,
        >
        > Thanks! This is new information for me?!?!? Perhaps I missed an
        > earlier post as I was unaware of Beaver Creek being north of
        > Boonsboro.
        >
        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
        >
        > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
        > from
        > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@...>
        > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 7:53 PM
        > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Beaver Creek
        >
        >
        > > Gerry,
        > > Stephen likely is referring to Beaver Creek that runs north
        > > of
        > > Boonsboro and empties into Antietam Creek. Rebels considered
        > > it
        > > as a potential defensive position once Mac began moving upon
        > > Turner's Gap. Ol' Pete would have crossed it en route from
        > > Boonsboro to Hagerstown, then re-crossed it in hurrying to
        > > the
        > > defense of South Mtn.
        > >
        > > Tom Shay
        > >
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: G E Mayers
        > > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 7:15 PM
        > > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Beaver Creek
        > >
        > >
        > > Stephen,
        > >
        > > Do you mean Beaver Dam Creek? Seven Days Battles? A time
        > > frame
        > > would be helpful?
        > >
        > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
        > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
        > >
        > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or
        > > even
        > > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in
        > > the
        > > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction
        > > from
        > > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
        > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        > > Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 9:35 PM
        > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Beaver Creek
        > >
        > > > Where did Longstreet cross Beaver Creek? Is there a
        > > historical
        > > > marker
        > > > or landmark? Thanks.
        > > >
        > > > Stephen
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        >
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.