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Re: CS Signal Corps in the Maryland Campaign

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  • eighth_conn_inf
    Gerry, Thanks, I saw that in his GM article and mentioned it in my response. I just wonder why Freeman and this OR cite show him as a Capt. and working for
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 14, 2008
      Gerry,
      Thanks, I saw that in his GM article and mentioned it in my response.
      I just wonder why Freeman and this OR cite show him as a Capt. and
      working for Lee--maybe just a misunderstanding--Freeman may not have
      known that he really worked for someone else? In this case, he was
      signalling from Longstreet's end of the line to Jackson's end. Maybe
      Dave found some good info in the archives?
      Larry F.

      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Dear Larry,
      >
      > IIRC, Dave also pointed out that Bartlett was actually Jackson's
      > CSO, rather than Lee's.
      >
      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
      >
      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
      > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 7:04 PM
      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CS Signal Corps in the Maryland
      > Campaign
      >
      >
      > Dave,
      >
      > I just noticed a passage in Freeman's "R. E. Lee" vol. 2 pg.
      > 331:"
      > Lee turned to his signal officer, Captain J. L. Bartlett, who had
      > established his station near headquarters, and had him flag to
      > Jackson...." also found in OR, vol. 12, pt. II, 562-3.
      >
      > You had mentioned Bartlett in your GM article.
      >
      > Larry F.
      >
      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "flagflop" <dwgaddy@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > To all concerned: Pardon the mess I hope I've straightened out.
      > with
      > > my long inability to post on the group, and indulge me, please,
      > > by
      > > returning to Dr. Tom's 19 Feb "Favor" and subsequent responses
      > > by
      > > Harry, Larry F., GE Mayers (at least) and allowing some
      > > comments
      > and
      > > re-affirmations. I've been involved in the Sugar Loaf inquiry
      > (direct
      > > correspondence), but just caught up with the related postings
      > > here.
      > >
      > > May I also refer you (if you have access) to my "Confederate
      > > Signal
      > > Corps at Gettysburg" in "Gettysburg" magazine Number Four (1
      > > Jan
      > > 1991), cited in Bobby Krick's "Staff Officers in Gray." There
      > > is no
      > > record that Lee had a Chief Signal Officer (CSO) on his staff,
      > > to
      > > best of my knowledge. As required, he used corps signal
      > > officer, of
      > > whom several are identified. During the Maryland campaign of
      > > Fall,
      > > 1862, two of the (later) corps-level SigO's were hors de
      > > combat --
      > > Capt. Wilbourn (Jackson) from wound during Second Manassas,
      > > forcing
      > > Jackson to employ a signalman who was detailed; and Capt.
      > > Manning
      > > (Longstreet) from a painful infection, making McLaws depend on
      > > an
      > > instructed staff officer. Capt. Randolph was probably with
      > > Harvey
      > > Hill on South Mountain and Capt. Frayser (replacing Capt
      > > Stuart,
      > KIA
      > > at Second Manassas) with Stuart. Generally speaking, each SigO
      > > had
      > a
      > > SigSgt as tech asst, some of which acted as local "officers" in
      > > charge, aka warrant officers.
      > >
      > > The SigCorps as authorized in Apr/May 62 had only Capts and
      > > Sgts.
      > > Lieutenants were added in Sep/Oct expansion, as were add'l
      > > Sgts --
      > a
      > > total of only 61 billets, with Capt Norris promoted to Maj and
      > Chief
      > > of the SigC.
      > >
      > > As noted in the postings, Norris generally remained in Richmond
      > (but
      > > did sally forth to meet the "victorious" army returning from
      > > Maryland, his home state) and was away nearly nine months
      > > because
      > of
      > > falling out with SecWar, leaving Capt Barker the
      > > officer-in-charge.
      > >
      > > "Secret Service" activity in the field was not part of the
      > > SigO's
      > job
      > > description -- that was a Richmond "back room operation" and
      > attached
      > > people were seldom regular signalmen. (The exceptions continue
      > > to
      > be
      > > interesting, but I don't want to leave the mounting impression
      > > that
      > > all CS sig officers were engaged in covert ops.)
      > >
      > > Dave Gaddy
      > >
      > > I hope this will be useful as we study the full Maryland
      > > campaign.
      > >
      > > The reported occupation of Sugar Loaf by CS signalmen
      > > (presumably
      > > from Stuart?) o/a 6/7 Sep until 11 Sep appears now to have been
      > > confirmed, and I appreciate see the citations.
      > >
      >
    • G E Mayers
      Dear Larry, Commanders of signals detachments either were Lieutenants or Captains. Confederate Signal Corps only had a single person with the rank of Major
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 15, 2008
        Dear Larry,

        Commanders of signals detachments either were Lieutenants or
        Captains. Confederate Signal Corps only had a single person with
        the rank of Major until later in the War. That person was the
        head of the Signals Bureau in Richmond.

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 9:31 PM
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CS Signal Corps in the Maryland
        Campaign


        Gerry,
        Thanks, I saw that in his GM article and mentioned it in my
        response.
        I just wonder why Freeman and this OR cite show him as a Capt.
        and
        working for Lee--maybe just a misunderstanding--Freeman may not
        have
        known that he really worked for someone else? In this case, he
        was
        signalling from Longstreet's end of the line to Jackson's end.
        Maybe
        Dave found some good info in the archives?
        Larry F.
      • eighth_conn_inf
        Thanks, Gerry, I understand the ranks but the reason I mentioned at all is due to his footnote 23 on page 112, of GM Issue 4 Jan. 1991: OR, 19 (1), 953ff.
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 15, 2008
          Thanks, Gerry,
          I understand the ranks but the reason I mentioned at all is due to
          his footnote 23 on page 112, of GM Issue 4 Jan. 1991: "OR, 19 (1),
          953ff. (The report on pp. 958-959 identified to 'Capt.' J. L.
          Bartlett was originated by an enlisted and detailed signalman serving
          Jackson, Captain Wilbourn having been seriously wounded at Second
          Manassas.)"

          These messages start on page 958 with "Report of Capt. J. L.
          Bartlett, Signal Officer, C. S. Army, of operations about Harper's
          Ferry, W Va." and end on page 959 with his other signatures as "JOS.
          L. BARTLETT" and "J. L. B.". He mentions Captain Adams on Loudoun
          Heights and that he (Bartlett) was acting under orders of Major
          Paxton.

          I look forward to the article about signal activities during the
          Maryland Campaign.

          Larry

          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Dear Larry,
          >
          > Commanders of signals detachments either were Lieutenants or
          > Captains. Confederate Signal Corps only had a single person with
          > the rank of Major until later in the War. That person was the
          > head of the Signals Bureau in Richmond.
          >
          > Yr. Obt. Svt.
          > G E "Gerry" Mayers
          >
          > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
          > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 9:31 PM
          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CS Signal Corps in the Maryland
          > Campaign
          >
          >
          > Gerry,
          > Thanks, I saw that in his GM article and mentioned it in my
          > response.
          > I just wonder why Freeman and this OR cite show him as a Capt.
          > and
          > working for Lee--maybe just a misunderstanding--Freeman may not
          > have
          > known that he really worked for someone else? In this case, he
          > was
          > signalling from Longstreet's end of the line to Jackson's end.
          > Maybe
          > Dave found some good info in the archives?
          > Larry F.
          >
        • flagflop
          Larry, Sorry to be late responding, but just returned from two weeks away. Dr. Freeman was wrong. (How that does pain me to say it!) But he was the victim of
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 19, 2008
            Larry,
            Sorry to be late responding, but just returned from two weeks away.
            Dr. Freeman was wrong. (How that does pain me to say it!) But he was
            the victim of mis-identification stemming from the OR editors. At
            Second Manassas, the signalman serving Lee, by transmitting the query
            to Jackson, was the same man who was serving Jackson during the
            investment of Harper's Ferry the following month. After a long time
            trying w/o success to identify "Capt. Bartlett," I went after the
            original of Bartlett's HF report in the National Archives. Mike
            Musick tracked it down, filed with the Second Manass report. Since it
            was a report from "the signal person," that person was first ,is-
            identified as "the signal officer." Then he became "Captain." Etc.,
            etc. The name was published and indexed incorrectly compounded by the
            incorrect rank. (In contemporary and post-war narratives, the rank
            was also erroneously stated by H.K. Douglas and Imboden.) But (as
            Brian has indicated in the introductory material to Antietam on the
            Web), the individual was a detailed private. (He may, by 1864 have
            been integrated into the "regular" signal corps as a Signal Sergeant,
            but I can't yet confirm that. He was killed that summer.) That's the
            story in a nutshell and "off the top."
            Dave Gaddy

            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
            <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dave,
            >
            > I just noticed a passage in Freeman's "R. E. Lee" vol. 2 pg. 331:"
            > Lee turned to his signal officer, Captain J. L. Bartlett, who had
            > established his station near headquarters, and had him flag to
            > Jackson...." also found in OR, vol. 12, pt. II, 562-3.
            >
            > You had mentioned Bartlett in your GM article.
            >
            > Larry F.
            >
          • eighth_conn_inf
            Dave, Thank you for clearing that up; it makes sense now. Perhaps when you write about the signal corps for both sides during the Maryland Campaign you will
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 20, 2008
              Dave,

              Thank you for clearing that up; it makes sense now.

              Perhaps when you write about the signal corps for both sides during
              the Maryland Campaign you will include telegraph communications also?

              Larry

              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "flagflop" <dwgaddy@...> wrote:
              >
              > Larry,
              > Sorry to be late responding, but just returned from two weeks away.
              > Dr. Freeman was wrong. (How that does pain me to say it!) But he
              was
              > the victim of mis-identification stemming from the OR editors. At
              > Second Manassas, the signalman serving Lee, by transmitting the
              query
              > to Jackson, was the same man who was serving Jackson during the
              > investment of Harper's Ferry the following month. After a long time
              > trying w/o success to identify "Capt. Bartlett," I went after the
              > original of Bartlett's HF report in the National Archives. Mike
              > Musick tracked it down, filed with the Second Manass report. Since
              it
              > was a report from "the signal person," that person was first ,is-
              > identified as "the signal officer." Then he became "Captain." Etc.,
              > etc. The name was published and indexed incorrectly compounded by
              the
              > incorrect rank. (In contemporary and post-war narratives, the rank
              > was also erroneously stated by H.K. Douglas and Imboden.) But (as
              > Brian has indicated in the introductory material to Antietam on the
              > Web), the individual was a detailed private. (He may, by 1864 have
              > been integrated into the "regular" signal corps as a Signal
              Sergeant,
              > but I can't yet confirm that. He was killed that summer.) That's
              the
              > story in a nutshell and "off the top."
              > Dave Gaddy
              >
              > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
              > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Dave,
              > >
              > > I just noticed a passage in Freeman's "R. E. Lee" vol. 2 pg.
              331:"
              > > Lee turned to his signal officer, Captain J. L. Bartlett, who had
              > > established his station near headquarters, and had him flag to
              > > Jackson...." also found in OR, vol. 12, pt. II, 562-3.
              > >
              > > You had mentioned Bartlett in your GM article.
              > >
              > > Larry F.
              > >
              >
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