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Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: CS Signal Corps in the Maryland Campaign

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  • G E Mayers
    Dear Larry, IIRC, Dave also pointed out that Bartlett was actually Jackson s CSO, rather than Lee s. Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 14, 2008
      Dear Larry,

      IIRC, Dave also pointed out that Bartlett was actually Jackson's
      CSO, rather than Lee's.

      Yr. Obt. Svt.
      G E "Gerry" Mayers

      To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
      To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 7:04 PM
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CS Signal Corps in the Maryland
      Campaign


      Dave,

      I just noticed a passage in Freeman's "R. E. Lee" vol. 2 pg.
      331:"
      Lee turned to his signal officer, Captain J. L. Bartlett, who had
      established his station near headquarters, and had him flag to
      Jackson...." also found in OR, vol. 12, pt. II, 562-3.

      You had mentioned Bartlett in your GM article.

      Larry F.

      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "flagflop" <dwgaddy@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > To all concerned: Pardon the mess I hope I've straightened out.
      with
      > my long inability to post on the group, and indulge me, please,
      > by
      > returning to Dr. Tom's 19 Feb "Favor" and subsequent responses
      > by
      > Harry, Larry F., GE Mayers (at least) and allowing some
      > comments
      and
      > re-affirmations. I've been involved in the Sugar Loaf inquiry
      (direct
      > correspondence), but just caught up with the related postings
      > here.
      >
      > May I also refer you (if you have access) to my "Confederate
      > Signal
      > Corps at Gettysburg" in "Gettysburg" magazine Number Four (1
      > Jan
      > 1991), cited in Bobby Krick's "Staff Officers in Gray." There
      > is no
      > record that Lee had a Chief Signal Officer (CSO) on his staff,
      > to
      > best of my knowledge. As required, he used corps signal
      > officer, of
      > whom several are identified. During the Maryland campaign of
      > Fall,
      > 1862, two of the (later) corps-level SigO's were hors de
      > combat --
      > Capt. Wilbourn (Jackson) from wound during Second Manassas,
      > forcing
      > Jackson to employ a signalman who was detailed; and Capt.
      > Manning
      > (Longstreet) from a painful infection, making McLaws depend on
      > an
      > instructed staff officer. Capt. Randolph was probably with
      > Harvey
      > Hill on South Mountain and Capt. Frayser (replacing Capt
      > Stuart,
      KIA
      > at Second Manassas) with Stuart. Generally speaking, each SigO
      > had
      a
      > SigSgt as tech asst, some of which acted as local "officers" in
      > charge, aka warrant officers.
      >
      > The SigCorps as authorized in Apr/May 62 had only Capts and
      > Sgts.
      > Lieutenants were added in Sep/Oct expansion, as were add'l
      > Sgts --
      a
      > total of only 61 billets, with Capt Norris promoted to Maj and
      Chief
      > of the SigC.
      >
      > As noted in the postings, Norris generally remained in Richmond
      (but
      > did sally forth to meet the "victorious" army returning from
      > Maryland, his home state) and was away nearly nine months
      > because
      of
      > falling out with SecWar, leaving Capt Barker the
      > officer-in-charge.
      >
      > "Secret Service" activity in the field was not part of the
      > SigO's
      job
      > description -- that was a Richmond "back room operation" and
      attached
      > people were seldom regular signalmen. (The exceptions continue
      > to
      be
      > interesting, but I don't want to leave the mounting impression
      > that
      > all CS sig officers were engaged in covert ops.)
      >
      > Dave Gaddy
      >
      > I hope this will be useful as we study the full Maryland
      > campaign.
      >
      > The reported occupation of Sugar Loaf by CS signalmen
      > (presumably
      > from Stuart?) o/a 6/7 Sep until 11 Sep appears now to have been
      > confirmed, and I appreciate see the citations.
      >
    • eighth_conn_inf
      Gerry, Thanks, I saw that in his GM article and mentioned it in my response. I just wonder why Freeman and this OR cite show him as a Capt. and working for
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 14, 2008
        Gerry,
        Thanks, I saw that in his GM article and mentioned it in my response.
        I just wonder why Freeman and this OR cite show him as a Capt. and
        working for Lee--maybe just a misunderstanding--Freeman may not have
        known that he really worked for someone else? In this case, he was
        signalling from Longstreet's end of the line to Jackson's end. Maybe
        Dave found some good info in the archives?
        Larry F.

        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Dear Larry,
        >
        > IIRC, Dave also pointed out that Bartlett was actually Jackson's
        > CSO, rather than Lee's.
        >
        > Yr. Obt. Svt.
        > G E "Gerry" Mayers
        >
        > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
        > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 7:04 PM
        > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CS Signal Corps in the Maryland
        > Campaign
        >
        >
        > Dave,
        >
        > I just noticed a passage in Freeman's "R. E. Lee" vol. 2 pg.
        > 331:"
        > Lee turned to his signal officer, Captain J. L. Bartlett, who had
        > established his station near headquarters, and had him flag to
        > Jackson...." also found in OR, vol. 12, pt. II, 562-3.
        >
        > You had mentioned Bartlett in your GM article.
        >
        > Larry F.
        >
        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "flagflop" <dwgaddy@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > To all concerned: Pardon the mess I hope I've straightened out.
        > with
        > > my long inability to post on the group, and indulge me, please,
        > > by
        > > returning to Dr. Tom's 19 Feb "Favor" and subsequent responses
        > > by
        > > Harry, Larry F., GE Mayers (at least) and allowing some
        > > comments
        > and
        > > re-affirmations. I've been involved in the Sugar Loaf inquiry
        > (direct
        > > correspondence), but just caught up with the related postings
        > > here.
        > >
        > > May I also refer you (if you have access) to my "Confederate
        > > Signal
        > > Corps at Gettysburg" in "Gettysburg" magazine Number Four (1
        > > Jan
        > > 1991), cited in Bobby Krick's "Staff Officers in Gray." There
        > > is no
        > > record that Lee had a Chief Signal Officer (CSO) on his staff,
        > > to
        > > best of my knowledge. As required, he used corps signal
        > > officer, of
        > > whom several are identified. During the Maryland campaign of
        > > Fall,
        > > 1862, two of the (later) corps-level SigO's were hors de
        > > combat --
        > > Capt. Wilbourn (Jackson) from wound during Second Manassas,
        > > forcing
        > > Jackson to employ a signalman who was detailed; and Capt.
        > > Manning
        > > (Longstreet) from a painful infection, making McLaws depend on
        > > an
        > > instructed staff officer. Capt. Randolph was probably with
        > > Harvey
        > > Hill on South Mountain and Capt. Frayser (replacing Capt
        > > Stuart,
        > KIA
        > > at Second Manassas) with Stuart. Generally speaking, each SigO
        > > had
        > a
        > > SigSgt as tech asst, some of which acted as local "officers" in
        > > charge, aka warrant officers.
        > >
        > > The SigCorps as authorized in Apr/May 62 had only Capts and
        > > Sgts.
        > > Lieutenants were added in Sep/Oct expansion, as were add'l
        > > Sgts --
        > a
        > > total of only 61 billets, with Capt Norris promoted to Maj and
        > Chief
        > > of the SigC.
        > >
        > > As noted in the postings, Norris generally remained in Richmond
        > (but
        > > did sally forth to meet the "victorious" army returning from
        > > Maryland, his home state) and was away nearly nine months
        > > because
        > of
        > > falling out with SecWar, leaving Capt Barker the
        > > officer-in-charge.
        > >
        > > "Secret Service" activity in the field was not part of the
        > > SigO's
        > job
        > > description -- that was a Richmond "back room operation" and
        > attached
        > > people were seldom regular signalmen. (The exceptions continue
        > > to
        > be
        > > interesting, but I don't want to leave the mounting impression
        > > that
        > > all CS sig officers were engaged in covert ops.)
        > >
        > > Dave Gaddy
        > >
        > > I hope this will be useful as we study the full Maryland
        > > campaign.
        > >
        > > The reported occupation of Sugar Loaf by CS signalmen
        > > (presumably
        > > from Stuart?) o/a 6/7 Sep until 11 Sep appears now to have been
        > > confirmed, and I appreciate see the citations.
        > >
        >
      • G E Mayers
        Dear Larry, Commanders of signals detachments either were Lieutenants or Captains. Confederate Signal Corps only had a single person with the rank of Major
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 15, 2008
          Dear Larry,

          Commanders of signals detachments either were Lieutenants or
          Captains. Confederate Signal Corps only had a single person with
          the rank of Major until later in the War. That person was the
          head of the Signals Bureau in Richmond.

          Yr. Obt. Svt.
          G E "Gerry" Mayers

          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 9:31 PM
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CS Signal Corps in the Maryland
          Campaign


          Gerry,
          Thanks, I saw that in his GM article and mentioned it in my
          response.
          I just wonder why Freeman and this OR cite show him as a Capt.
          and
          working for Lee--maybe just a misunderstanding--Freeman may not
          have
          known that he really worked for someone else? In this case, he
          was
          signalling from Longstreet's end of the line to Jackson's end.
          Maybe
          Dave found some good info in the archives?
          Larry F.
        • eighth_conn_inf
          Thanks, Gerry, I understand the ranks but the reason I mentioned at all is due to his footnote 23 on page 112, of GM Issue 4 Jan. 1991: OR, 19 (1), 953ff.
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 15, 2008
            Thanks, Gerry,
            I understand the ranks but the reason I mentioned at all is due to
            his footnote 23 on page 112, of GM Issue 4 Jan. 1991: "OR, 19 (1),
            953ff. (The report on pp. 958-959 identified to 'Capt.' J. L.
            Bartlett was originated by an enlisted and detailed signalman serving
            Jackson, Captain Wilbourn having been seriously wounded at Second
            Manassas.)"

            These messages start on page 958 with "Report of Capt. J. L.
            Bartlett, Signal Officer, C. S. Army, of operations about Harper's
            Ferry, W Va." and end on page 959 with his other signatures as "JOS.
            L. BARTLETT" and "J. L. B.". He mentions Captain Adams on Loudoun
            Heights and that he (Bartlett) was acting under orders of Major
            Paxton.

            I look forward to the article about signal activities during the
            Maryland Campaign.

            Larry

            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Dear Larry,
            >
            > Commanders of signals detachments either were Lieutenants or
            > Captains. Confederate Signal Corps only had a single person with
            > the rank of Major until later in the War. That person was the
            > head of the Signals Bureau in Richmond.
            >
            > Yr. Obt. Svt.
            > G E "Gerry" Mayers
            >
            > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
            > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 9:31 PM
            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CS Signal Corps in the Maryland
            > Campaign
            >
            >
            > Gerry,
            > Thanks, I saw that in his GM article and mentioned it in my
            > response.
            > I just wonder why Freeman and this OR cite show him as a Capt.
            > and
            > working for Lee--maybe just a misunderstanding--Freeman may not
            > have
            > known that he really worked for someone else? In this case, he
            > was
            > signalling from Longstreet's end of the line to Jackson's end.
            > Maybe
            > Dave found some good info in the archives?
            > Larry F.
            >
          • flagflop
            Larry, Sorry to be late responding, but just returned from two weeks away. Dr. Freeman was wrong. (How that does pain me to say it!) But he was the victim of
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 19, 2008
              Larry,
              Sorry to be late responding, but just returned from two weeks away.
              Dr. Freeman was wrong. (How that does pain me to say it!) But he was
              the victim of mis-identification stemming from the OR editors. At
              Second Manassas, the signalman serving Lee, by transmitting the query
              to Jackson, was the same man who was serving Jackson during the
              investment of Harper's Ferry the following month. After a long time
              trying w/o success to identify "Capt. Bartlett," I went after the
              original of Bartlett's HF report in the National Archives. Mike
              Musick tracked it down, filed with the Second Manass report. Since it
              was a report from "the signal person," that person was first ,is-
              identified as "the signal officer." Then he became "Captain." Etc.,
              etc. The name was published and indexed incorrectly compounded by the
              incorrect rank. (In contemporary and post-war narratives, the rank
              was also erroneously stated by H.K. Douglas and Imboden.) But (as
              Brian has indicated in the introductory material to Antietam on the
              Web), the individual was a detailed private. (He may, by 1864 have
              been integrated into the "regular" signal corps as a Signal Sergeant,
              but I can't yet confirm that. He was killed that summer.) That's the
              story in a nutshell and "off the top."
              Dave Gaddy

              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
              <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dave,
              >
              > I just noticed a passage in Freeman's "R. E. Lee" vol. 2 pg. 331:"
              > Lee turned to his signal officer, Captain J. L. Bartlett, who had
              > established his station near headquarters, and had him flag to
              > Jackson...." also found in OR, vol. 12, pt. II, 562-3.
              >
              > You had mentioned Bartlett in your GM article.
              >
              > Larry F.
              >
            • eighth_conn_inf
              Dave, Thank you for clearing that up; it makes sense now. Perhaps when you write about the signal corps for both sides during the Maryland Campaign you will
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 20, 2008
                Dave,

                Thank you for clearing that up; it makes sense now.

                Perhaps when you write about the signal corps for both sides during
                the Maryland Campaign you will include telegraph communications also?

                Larry

                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "flagflop" <dwgaddy@...> wrote:
                >
                > Larry,
                > Sorry to be late responding, but just returned from two weeks away.
                > Dr. Freeman was wrong. (How that does pain me to say it!) But he
                was
                > the victim of mis-identification stemming from the OR editors. At
                > Second Manassas, the signalman serving Lee, by transmitting the
                query
                > to Jackson, was the same man who was serving Jackson during the
                > investment of Harper's Ferry the following month. After a long time
                > trying w/o success to identify "Capt. Bartlett," I went after the
                > original of Bartlett's HF report in the National Archives. Mike
                > Musick tracked it down, filed with the Second Manass report. Since
                it
                > was a report from "the signal person," that person was first ,is-
                > identified as "the signal officer." Then he became "Captain." Etc.,
                > etc. The name was published and indexed incorrectly compounded by
                the
                > incorrect rank. (In contemporary and post-war narratives, the rank
                > was also erroneously stated by H.K. Douglas and Imboden.) But (as
                > Brian has indicated in the introductory material to Antietam on the
                > Web), the individual was a detailed private. (He may, by 1864 have
                > been integrated into the "regular" signal corps as a Signal
                Sergeant,
                > but I can't yet confirm that. He was killed that summer.) That's
                the
                > story in a nutshell and "off the top."
                > Dave Gaddy
                >
                > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Dave,
                > >
                > > I just noticed a passage in Freeman's "R. E. Lee" vol. 2 pg.
                331:"
                > > Lee turned to his signal officer, Captain J. L. Bartlett, who had
                > > established his station near headquarters, and had him flag to
                > > Jackson...." also found in OR, vol. 12, pt. II, 562-3.
                > >
                > > You had mentioned Bartlett in your GM article.
                > >
                > > Larry F.
                > >
                >
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