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Re: CS Signal Corps in the Maryland Campaign

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  • eighth_conn_inf
    Dave, I just noticed a passage in Freeman s R. E. Lee vol. 2 pg. 331: Lee turned to his signal officer, Captain J. L. Bartlett, who had established his
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 14, 2008
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      Dave,

      I just noticed a passage in Freeman's "R. E. Lee" vol. 2 pg. 331:"
      Lee turned to his signal officer, Captain J. L. Bartlett, who had
      established his station near headquarters, and had him flag to
      Jackson...." also found in OR, vol. 12, pt. II, 562-3.

      You had mentioned Bartlett in your GM article.

      Larry F.

      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "flagflop" <dwgaddy@...> wrote:
      >
      > To all concerned: Pardon the mess I hope I've straightened out.
      with
      > my long inability to post on the group, and indulge me, please, by
      > returning to Dr. Tom's 19 Feb "Favor" and subsequent responses by
      > Harry, Larry F., GE Mayers (at least) and allowing some comments
      and
      > re-affirmations. I've been involved in the Sugar Loaf inquiry
      (direct
      > correspondence), but just caught up with the related postings here.
      >
      > May I also refer you (if you have access) to my "Confederate Signal
      > Corps at Gettysburg" in "Gettysburg" magazine Number Four (1 Jan
      > 1991), cited in Bobby Krick's "Staff Officers in Gray." There is no
      > record that Lee had a Chief Signal Officer (CSO) on his staff, to
      > best of my knowledge. As required, he used corps signal officer, of
      > whom several are identified. During the Maryland campaign of Fall,
      > 1862, two of the (later) corps-level SigO's were hors de combat --
      > Capt. Wilbourn (Jackson) from wound during Second Manassas, forcing
      > Jackson to employ a signalman who was detailed; and Capt. Manning
      > (Longstreet) from a painful infection, making McLaws depend on an
      > instructed staff officer. Capt. Randolph was probably with Harvey
      > Hill on South Mountain and Capt. Frayser (replacing Capt Stuart,
      KIA
      > at Second Manassas) with Stuart. Generally speaking, each SigO had
      a
      > SigSgt as tech asst, some of which acted as local "officers" in
      > charge, aka warrant officers.
      >
      > The SigCorps as authorized in Apr/May 62 had only Capts and Sgts.
      > Lieutenants were added in Sep/Oct expansion, as were add'l Sgts --
      a
      > total of only 61 billets, with Capt Norris promoted to Maj and
      Chief
      > of the SigC.
      >
      > As noted in the postings, Norris generally remained in Richmond
      (but
      > did sally forth to meet the "victorious" army returning from
      > Maryland, his home state) and was away nearly nine months because
      of
      > falling out with SecWar, leaving Capt Barker the officer-in-charge.
      >
      > "Secret Service" activity in the field was not part of the SigO's
      job
      > description -- that was a Richmond "back room operation" and
      attached
      > people were seldom regular signalmen. (The exceptions continue to
      be
      > interesting, but I don't want to leave the mounting impression that
      > all CS sig officers were engaged in covert ops.)
      >
      > Dave Gaddy
      >
      > I hope this will be useful as we study the full Maryland campaign.
      >
      > The reported occupation of Sugar Loaf by CS signalmen (presumably
      > from Stuart?) o/a 6/7 Sep until 11 Sep appears now to have been
      > confirmed, and I appreciate see the citations.
      >
    • G E Mayers
      Dear Larry, IIRC, Dave also pointed out that Bartlett was actually Jackson s CSO, rather than Lee s. Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 14, 2008
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        Dear Larry,

        IIRC, Dave also pointed out that Bartlett was actually Jackson's
        CSO, rather than Lee's.

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 7:04 PM
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CS Signal Corps in the Maryland
        Campaign


        Dave,

        I just noticed a passage in Freeman's "R. E. Lee" vol. 2 pg.
        331:"
        Lee turned to his signal officer, Captain J. L. Bartlett, who had
        established his station near headquarters, and had him flag to
        Jackson...." also found in OR, vol. 12, pt. II, 562-3.

        You had mentioned Bartlett in your GM article.

        Larry F.

        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "flagflop" <dwgaddy@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > To all concerned: Pardon the mess I hope I've straightened out.
        with
        > my long inability to post on the group, and indulge me, please,
        > by
        > returning to Dr. Tom's 19 Feb "Favor" and subsequent responses
        > by
        > Harry, Larry F., GE Mayers (at least) and allowing some
        > comments
        and
        > re-affirmations. I've been involved in the Sugar Loaf inquiry
        (direct
        > correspondence), but just caught up with the related postings
        > here.
        >
        > May I also refer you (if you have access) to my "Confederate
        > Signal
        > Corps at Gettysburg" in "Gettysburg" magazine Number Four (1
        > Jan
        > 1991), cited in Bobby Krick's "Staff Officers in Gray." There
        > is no
        > record that Lee had a Chief Signal Officer (CSO) on his staff,
        > to
        > best of my knowledge. As required, he used corps signal
        > officer, of
        > whom several are identified. During the Maryland campaign of
        > Fall,
        > 1862, two of the (later) corps-level SigO's were hors de
        > combat --
        > Capt. Wilbourn (Jackson) from wound during Second Manassas,
        > forcing
        > Jackson to employ a signalman who was detailed; and Capt.
        > Manning
        > (Longstreet) from a painful infection, making McLaws depend on
        > an
        > instructed staff officer. Capt. Randolph was probably with
        > Harvey
        > Hill on South Mountain and Capt. Frayser (replacing Capt
        > Stuart,
        KIA
        > at Second Manassas) with Stuart. Generally speaking, each SigO
        > had
        a
        > SigSgt as tech asst, some of which acted as local "officers" in
        > charge, aka warrant officers.
        >
        > The SigCorps as authorized in Apr/May 62 had only Capts and
        > Sgts.
        > Lieutenants were added in Sep/Oct expansion, as were add'l
        > Sgts --
        a
        > total of only 61 billets, with Capt Norris promoted to Maj and
        Chief
        > of the SigC.
        >
        > As noted in the postings, Norris generally remained in Richmond
        (but
        > did sally forth to meet the "victorious" army returning from
        > Maryland, his home state) and was away nearly nine months
        > because
        of
        > falling out with SecWar, leaving Capt Barker the
        > officer-in-charge.
        >
        > "Secret Service" activity in the field was not part of the
        > SigO's
        job
        > description -- that was a Richmond "back room operation" and
        attached
        > people were seldom regular signalmen. (The exceptions continue
        > to
        be
        > interesting, but I don't want to leave the mounting impression
        > that
        > all CS sig officers were engaged in covert ops.)
        >
        > Dave Gaddy
        >
        > I hope this will be useful as we study the full Maryland
        > campaign.
        >
        > The reported occupation of Sugar Loaf by CS signalmen
        > (presumably
        > from Stuart?) o/a 6/7 Sep until 11 Sep appears now to have been
        > confirmed, and I appreciate see the citations.
        >
      • eighth_conn_inf
        Gerry, Thanks, I saw that in his GM article and mentioned it in my response. I just wonder why Freeman and this OR cite show him as a Capt. and working for
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 14, 2008
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          Gerry,
          Thanks, I saw that in his GM article and mentioned it in my response.
          I just wonder why Freeman and this OR cite show him as a Capt. and
          working for Lee--maybe just a misunderstanding--Freeman may not have
          known that he really worked for someone else? In this case, he was
          signalling from Longstreet's end of the line to Jackson's end. Maybe
          Dave found some good info in the archives?
          Larry F.

          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Dear Larry,
          >
          > IIRC, Dave also pointed out that Bartlett was actually Jackson's
          > CSO, rather than Lee's.
          >
          > Yr. Obt. Svt.
          > G E "Gerry" Mayers
          >
          > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
          > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 7:04 PM
          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CS Signal Corps in the Maryland
          > Campaign
          >
          >
          > Dave,
          >
          > I just noticed a passage in Freeman's "R. E. Lee" vol. 2 pg.
          > 331:"
          > Lee turned to his signal officer, Captain J. L. Bartlett, who had
          > established his station near headquarters, and had him flag to
          > Jackson...." also found in OR, vol. 12, pt. II, 562-3.
          >
          > You had mentioned Bartlett in your GM article.
          >
          > Larry F.
          >
          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "flagflop" <dwgaddy@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > To all concerned: Pardon the mess I hope I've straightened out.
          > with
          > > my long inability to post on the group, and indulge me, please,
          > > by
          > > returning to Dr. Tom's 19 Feb "Favor" and subsequent responses
          > > by
          > > Harry, Larry F., GE Mayers (at least) and allowing some
          > > comments
          > and
          > > re-affirmations. I've been involved in the Sugar Loaf inquiry
          > (direct
          > > correspondence), but just caught up with the related postings
          > > here.
          > >
          > > May I also refer you (if you have access) to my "Confederate
          > > Signal
          > > Corps at Gettysburg" in "Gettysburg" magazine Number Four (1
          > > Jan
          > > 1991), cited in Bobby Krick's "Staff Officers in Gray." There
          > > is no
          > > record that Lee had a Chief Signal Officer (CSO) on his staff,
          > > to
          > > best of my knowledge. As required, he used corps signal
          > > officer, of
          > > whom several are identified. During the Maryland campaign of
          > > Fall,
          > > 1862, two of the (later) corps-level SigO's were hors de
          > > combat --
          > > Capt. Wilbourn (Jackson) from wound during Second Manassas,
          > > forcing
          > > Jackson to employ a signalman who was detailed; and Capt.
          > > Manning
          > > (Longstreet) from a painful infection, making McLaws depend on
          > > an
          > > instructed staff officer. Capt. Randolph was probably with
          > > Harvey
          > > Hill on South Mountain and Capt. Frayser (replacing Capt
          > > Stuart,
          > KIA
          > > at Second Manassas) with Stuart. Generally speaking, each SigO
          > > had
          > a
          > > SigSgt as tech asst, some of which acted as local "officers" in
          > > charge, aka warrant officers.
          > >
          > > The SigCorps as authorized in Apr/May 62 had only Capts and
          > > Sgts.
          > > Lieutenants were added in Sep/Oct expansion, as were add'l
          > > Sgts --
          > a
          > > total of only 61 billets, with Capt Norris promoted to Maj and
          > Chief
          > > of the SigC.
          > >
          > > As noted in the postings, Norris generally remained in Richmond
          > (but
          > > did sally forth to meet the "victorious" army returning from
          > > Maryland, his home state) and was away nearly nine months
          > > because
          > of
          > > falling out with SecWar, leaving Capt Barker the
          > > officer-in-charge.
          > >
          > > "Secret Service" activity in the field was not part of the
          > > SigO's
          > job
          > > description -- that was a Richmond "back room operation" and
          > attached
          > > people were seldom regular signalmen. (The exceptions continue
          > > to
          > be
          > > interesting, but I don't want to leave the mounting impression
          > > that
          > > all CS sig officers were engaged in covert ops.)
          > >
          > > Dave Gaddy
          > >
          > > I hope this will be useful as we study the full Maryland
          > > campaign.
          > >
          > > The reported occupation of Sugar Loaf by CS signalmen
          > > (presumably
          > > from Stuart?) o/a 6/7 Sep until 11 Sep appears now to have been
          > > confirmed, and I appreciate see the citations.
          > >
          >
        • G E Mayers
          Dear Larry, Commanders of signals detachments either were Lieutenants or Captains. Confederate Signal Corps only had a single person with the rank of Major
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 15, 2008
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            Dear Larry,

            Commanders of signals detachments either were Lieutenants or
            Captains. Confederate Signal Corps only had a single person with
            the rank of Major until later in the War. That person was the
            head of the Signals Bureau in Richmond.

            Yr. Obt. Svt.
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 9:31 PM
            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CS Signal Corps in the Maryland
            Campaign


            Gerry,
            Thanks, I saw that in his GM article and mentioned it in my
            response.
            I just wonder why Freeman and this OR cite show him as a Capt.
            and
            working for Lee--maybe just a misunderstanding--Freeman may not
            have
            known that he really worked for someone else? In this case, he
            was
            signalling from Longstreet's end of the line to Jackson's end.
            Maybe
            Dave found some good info in the archives?
            Larry F.
          • eighth_conn_inf
            Thanks, Gerry, I understand the ranks but the reason I mentioned at all is due to his footnote 23 on page 112, of GM Issue 4 Jan. 1991: OR, 19 (1), 953ff.
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 15, 2008
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              Thanks, Gerry,
              I understand the ranks but the reason I mentioned at all is due to
              his footnote 23 on page 112, of GM Issue 4 Jan. 1991: "OR, 19 (1),
              953ff. (The report on pp. 958-959 identified to 'Capt.' J. L.
              Bartlett was originated by an enlisted and detailed signalman serving
              Jackson, Captain Wilbourn having been seriously wounded at Second
              Manassas.)"

              These messages start on page 958 with "Report of Capt. J. L.
              Bartlett, Signal Officer, C. S. Army, of operations about Harper's
              Ferry, W Va." and end on page 959 with his other signatures as "JOS.
              L. BARTLETT" and "J. L. B.". He mentions Captain Adams on Loudoun
              Heights and that he (Bartlett) was acting under orders of Major
              Paxton.

              I look forward to the article about signal activities during the
              Maryland Campaign.

              Larry

              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Dear Larry,
              >
              > Commanders of signals detachments either were Lieutenants or
              > Captains. Confederate Signal Corps only had a single person with
              > the rank of Major until later in the War. That person was the
              > head of the Signals Bureau in Richmond.
              >
              > Yr. Obt. Svt.
              > G E "Gerry" Mayers
              >
              > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
              > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 9:31 PM
              > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CS Signal Corps in the Maryland
              > Campaign
              >
              >
              > Gerry,
              > Thanks, I saw that in his GM article and mentioned it in my
              > response.
              > I just wonder why Freeman and this OR cite show him as a Capt.
              > and
              > working for Lee--maybe just a misunderstanding--Freeman may not
              > have
              > known that he really worked for someone else? In this case, he
              > was
              > signalling from Longstreet's end of the line to Jackson's end.
              > Maybe
              > Dave found some good info in the archives?
              > Larry F.
              >
            • flagflop
              Larry, Sorry to be late responding, but just returned from two weeks away. Dr. Freeman was wrong. (How that does pain me to say it!) But he was the victim of
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 19, 2008
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                Larry,
                Sorry to be late responding, but just returned from two weeks away.
                Dr. Freeman was wrong. (How that does pain me to say it!) But he was
                the victim of mis-identification stemming from the OR editors. At
                Second Manassas, the signalman serving Lee, by transmitting the query
                to Jackson, was the same man who was serving Jackson during the
                investment of Harper's Ferry the following month. After a long time
                trying w/o success to identify "Capt. Bartlett," I went after the
                original of Bartlett's HF report in the National Archives. Mike
                Musick tracked it down, filed with the Second Manass report. Since it
                was a report from "the signal person," that person was first ,is-
                identified as "the signal officer." Then he became "Captain." Etc.,
                etc. The name was published and indexed incorrectly compounded by the
                incorrect rank. (In contemporary and post-war narratives, the rank
                was also erroneously stated by H.K. Douglas and Imboden.) But (as
                Brian has indicated in the introductory material to Antietam on the
                Web), the individual was a detailed private. (He may, by 1864 have
                been integrated into the "regular" signal corps as a Signal Sergeant,
                but I can't yet confirm that. He was killed that summer.) That's the
                story in a nutshell and "off the top."
                Dave Gaddy

                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dave,
                >
                > I just noticed a passage in Freeman's "R. E. Lee" vol. 2 pg. 331:"
                > Lee turned to his signal officer, Captain J. L. Bartlett, who had
                > established his station near headquarters, and had him flag to
                > Jackson...." also found in OR, vol. 12, pt. II, 562-3.
                >
                > You had mentioned Bartlett in your GM article.
                >
                > Larry F.
                >
              • eighth_conn_inf
                Dave, Thank you for clearing that up; it makes sense now. Perhaps when you write about the signal corps for both sides during the Maryland Campaign you will
                Message 7 of 8 , Mar 20, 2008
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                  Dave,

                  Thank you for clearing that up; it makes sense now.

                  Perhaps when you write about the signal corps for both sides during
                  the Maryland Campaign you will include telegraph communications also?

                  Larry

                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "flagflop" <dwgaddy@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Larry,
                  > Sorry to be late responding, but just returned from two weeks away.
                  > Dr. Freeman was wrong. (How that does pain me to say it!) But he
                  was
                  > the victim of mis-identification stemming from the OR editors. At
                  > Second Manassas, the signalman serving Lee, by transmitting the
                  query
                  > to Jackson, was the same man who was serving Jackson during the
                  > investment of Harper's Ferry the following month. After a long time
                  > trying w/o success to identify "Capt. Bartlett," I went after the
                  > original of Bartlett's HF report in the National Archives. Mike
                  > Musick tracked it down, filed with the Second Manass report. Since
                  it
                  > was a report from "the signal person," that person was first ,is-
                  > identified as "the signal officer." Then he became "Captain." Etc.,
                  > etc. The name was published and indexed incorrectly compounded by
                  the
                  > incorrect rank. (In contemporary and post-war narratives, the rank
                  > was also erroneously stated by H.K. Douglas and Imboden.) But (as
                  > Brian has indicated in the introductory material to Antietam on the
                  > Web), the individual was a detailed private. (He may, by 1864 have
                  > been integrated into the "regular" signal corps as a Signal
                  Sergeant,
                  > but I can't yet confirm that. He was killed that summer.) That's
                  the
                  > story in a nutshell and "off the top."
                  > Dave Gaddy
                  >
                  > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                  > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Dave,
                  > >
                  > > I just noticed a passage in Freeman's "R. E. Lee" vol. 2 pg.
                  331:"
                  > > Lee turned to his signal officer, Captain J. L. Bartlett, who had
                  > > established his station near headquarters, and had him flag to
                  > > Jackson...." also found in OR, vol. 12, pt. II, 562-3.
                  > >
                  > > You had mentioned Bartlett in your GM article.
                  > >
                  > > Larry F.
                  > >
                  >
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