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CS Signal Corps in the Maryland Campaign

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  • flagflop
    To all concerned: Pardon the mess I hope I ve straightened out. with my long inability to post on the group, and indulge me, please, by returning to Dr. Tom s
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 1, 2008
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      To all concerned: Pardon the mess I hope I've straightened out. with
      my long inability to post on the group, and indulge me, please, by
      returning to Dr. Tom's 19 Feb "Favor" and subsequent responses by
      Harry, Larry F., GE Mayers (at least) and allowing some comments and
      re-affirmations. I've been involved in the Sugar Loaf inquiry (direct
      correspondence), but just caught up with the related postings here.

      May I also refer you (if you have access) to my "Confederate Signal
      Corps at Gettysburg" in "Gettysburg" magazine Number Four (1 Jan
      1991), cited in Bobby Krick's "Staff Officers in Gray." There is no
      record that Lee had a Chief Signal Officer (CSO) on his staff, to
      best of my knowledge. As required, he used corps signal officer, of
      whom several are identified. During the Maryland campaign of Fall,
      1862, two of the (later) corps-level SigO's were hors de combat --
      Capt. Wilbourn (Jackson) from wound during Second Manassas, forcing
      Jackson to employ a signalman who was detailed; and Capt. Manning
      (Longstreet) from a painful infection, making McLaws depend on an
      instructed staff officer. Capt. Randolph was probably with Harvey
      Hill on South Mountain and Capt. Frayser (replacing Capt Stuart, KIA
      at Second Manassas) with Stuart. Generally speaking, each SigO had a
      SigSgt as tech asst, some of which acted as local "officers" in
      charge, aka warrant officers.

      The SigCorps as authorized in Apr/May 62 had only Capts and Sgts.
      Lieutenants were added in Sep/Oct expansion, as were add'l Sgts -- a
      total of only 61 billets, with Capt Norris promoted to Maj and Chief
      of the SigC.

      As noted in the postings, Norris generally remained in Richmond (but
      did sally forth to meet the "victorious" army returning from
      Maryland, his home state) and was away nearly nine months because of
      falling out with SecWar, leaving Capt Barker the officer-in-charge.

      "Secret Service" activity in the field was not part of the SigO's job
      description -- that was a Richmond "back room operation" and attached
      people were seldom regular signalmen. (The exceptions continue to be
      interesting, but I don't want to leave the mounting impression that
      all CS sig officers were engaged in covert ops.)

      Dave Gaddy

      I hope this will be useful as we study the full Maryland campaign.

      The reported occupation of Sugar Loaf by CS signalmen (presumably
      from Stuart?) o/a 6/7 Sep until 11 Sep appears now to have been
      confirmed, and I appreciate see the citations.
    • eighth_conn_inf
      Dave, I just noticed a passage in Freeman s R. E. Lee vol. 2 pg. 331: Lee turned to his signal officer, Captain J. L. Bartlett, who had established his
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 14, 2008
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        Dave,

        I just noticed a passage in Freeman's "R. E. Lee" vol. 2 pg. 331:"
        Lee turned to his signal officer, Captain J. L. Bartlett, who had
        established his station near headquarters, and had him flag to
        Jackson...." also found in OR, vol. 12, pt. II, 562-3.

        You had mentioned Bartlett in your GM article.

        Larry F.

        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "flagflop" <dwgaddy@...> wrote:
        >
        > To all concerned: Pardon the mess I hope I've straightened out.
        with
        > my long inability to post on the group, and indulge me, please, by
        > returning to Dr. Tom's 19 Feb "Favor" and subsequent responses by
        > Harry, Larry F., GE Mayers (at least) and allowing some comments
        and
        > re-affirmations. I've been involved in the Sugar Loaf inquiry
        (direct
        > correspondence), but just caught up with the related postings here.
        >
        > May I also refer you (if you have access) to my "Confederate Signal
        > Corps at Gettysburg" in "Gettysburg" magazine Number Four (1 Jan
        > 1991), cited in Bobby Krick's "Staff Officers in Gray." There is no
        > record that Lee had a Chief Signal Officer (CSO) on his staff, to
        > best of my knowledge. As required, he used corps signal officer, of
        > whom several are identified. During the Maryland campaign of Fall,
        > 1862, two of the (later) corps-level SigO's were hors de combat --
        > Capt. Wilbourn (Jackson) from wound during Second Manassas, forcing
        > Jackson to employ a signalman who was detailed; and Capt. Manning
        > (Longstreet) from a painful infection, making McLaws depend on an
        > instructed staff officer. Capt. Randolph was probably with Harvey
        > Hill on South Mountain and Capt. Frayser (replacing Capt Stuart,
        KIA
        > at Second Manassas) with Stuart. Generally speaking, each SigO had
        a
        > SigSgt as tech asst, some of which acted as local "officers" in
        > charge, aka warrant officers.
        >
        > The SigCorps as authorized in Apr/May 62 had only Capts and Sgts.
        > Lieutenants were added in Sep/Oct expansion, as were add'l Sgts --
        a
        > total of only 61 billets, with Capt Norris promoted to Maj and
        Chief
        > of the SigC.
        >
        > As noted in the postings, Norris generally remained in Richmond
        (but
        > did sally forth to meet the "victorious" army returning from
        > Maryland, his home state) and was away nearly nine months because
        of
        > falling out with SecWar, leaving Capt Barker the officer-in-charge.
        >
        > "Secret Service" activity in the field was not part of the SigO's
        job
        > description -- that was a Richmond "back room operation" and
        attached
        > people were seldom regular signalmen. (The exceptions continue to
        be
        > interesting, but I don't want to leave the mounting impression that
        > all CS sig officers were engaged in covert ops.)
        >
        > Dave Gaddy
        >
        > I hope this will be useful as we study the full Maryland campaign.
        >
        > The reported occupation of Sugar Loaf by CS signalmen (presumably
        > from Stuart?) o/a 6/7 Sep until 11 Sep appears now to have been
        > confirmed, and I appreciate see the citations.
        >
      • G E Mayers
        Dear Larry, IIRC, Dave also pointed out that Bartlett was actually Jackson s CSO, rather than Lee s. Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 14, 2008
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          Dear Larry,

          IIRC, Dave also pointed out that Bartlett was actually Jackson's
          CSO, rather than Lee's.

          Yr. Obt. Svt.
          G E "Gerry" Mayers

          To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
          on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
          Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
          the Almighty God. --Anonymous
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 7:04 PM
          Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CS Signal Corps in the Maryland
          Campaign


          Dave,

          I just noticed a passage in Freeman's "R. E. Lee" vol. 2 pg.
          331:"
          Lee turned to his signal officer, Captain J. L. Bartlett, who had
          established his station near headquarters, and had him flag to
          Jackson...." also found in OR, vol. 12, pt. II, 562-3.

          You had mentioned Bartlett in your GM article.

          Larry F.

          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "flagflop" <dwgaddy@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > To all concerned: Pardon the mess I hope I've straightened out.
          with
          > my long inability to post on the group, and indulge me, please,
          > by
          > returning to Dr. Tom's 19 Feb "Favor" and subsequent responses
          > by
          > Harry, Larry F., GE Mayers (at least) and allowing some
          > comments
          and
          > re-affirmations. I've been involved in the Sugar Loaf inquiry
          (direct
          > correspondence), but just caught up with the related postings
          > here.
          >
          > May I also refer you (if you have access) to my "Confederate
          > Signal
          > Corps at Gettysburg" in "Gettysburg" magazine Number Four (1
          > Jan
          > 1991), cited in Bobby Krick's "Staff Officers in Gray." There
          > is no
          > record that Lee had a Chief Signal Officer (CSO) on his staff,
          > to
          > best of my knowledge. As required, he used corps signal
          > officer, of
          > whom several are identified. During the Maryland campaign of
          > Fall,
          > 1862, two of the (later) corps-level SigO's were hors de
          > combat --
          > Capt. Wilbourn (Jackson) from wound during Second Manassas,
          > forcing
          > Jackson to employ a signalman who was detailed; and Capt.
          > Manning
          > (Longstreet) from a painful infection, making McLaws depend on
          > an
          > instructed staff officer. Capt. Randolph was probably with
          > Harvey
          > Hill on South Mountain and Capt. Frayser (replacing Capt
          > Stuart,
          KIA
          > at Second Manassas) with Stuart. Generally speaking, each SigO
          > had
          a
          > SigSgt as tech asst, some of which acted as local "officers" in
          > charge, aka warrant officers.
          >
          > The SigCorps as authorized in Apr/May 62 had only Capts and
          > Sgts.
          > Lieutenants were added in Sep/Oct expansion, as were add'l
          > Sgts --
          a
          > total of only 61 billets, with Capt Norris promoted to Maj and
          Chief
          > of the SigC.
          >
          > As noted in the postings, Norris generally remained in Richmond
          (but
          > did sally forth to meet the "victorious" army returning from
          > Maryland, his home state) and was away nearly nine months
          > because
          of
          > falling out with SecWar, leaving Capt Barker the
          > officer-in-charge.
          >
          > "Secret Service" activity in the field was not part of the
          > SigO's
          job
          > description -- that was a Richmond "back room operation" and
          attached
          > people were seldom regular signalmen. (The exceptions continue
          > to
          be
          > interesting, but I don't want to leave the mounting impression
          > that
          > all CS sig officers were engaged in covert ops.)
          >
          > Dave Gaddy
          >
          > I hope this will be useful as we study the full Maryland
          > campaign.
          >
          > The reported occupation of Sugar Loaf by CS signalmen
          > (presumably
          > from Stuart?) o/a 6/7 Sep until 11 Sep appears now to have been
          > confirmed, and I appreciate see the citations.
          >
        • eighth_conn_inf
          Gerry, Thanks, I saw that in his GM article and mentioned it in my response. I just wonder why Freeman and this OR cite show him as a Capt. and working for
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 14, 2008
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            Gerry,
            Thanks, I saw that in his GM article and mentioned it in my response.
            I just wonder why Freeman and this OR cite show him as a Capt. and
            working for Lee--maybe just a misunderstanding--Freeman may not have
            known that he really worked for someone else? In this case, he was
            signalling from Longstreet's end of the line to Jackson's end. Maybe
            Dave found some good info in the archives?
            Larry F.

            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Dear Larry,
            >
            > IIRC, Dave also pointed out that Bartlett was actually Jackson's
            > CSO, rather than Lee's.
            >
            > Yr. Obt. Svt.
            > G E "Gerry" Mayers
            >
            > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
            > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 7:04 PM
            > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CS Signal Corps in the Maryland
            > Campaign
            >
            >
            > Dave,
            >
            > I just noticed a passage in Freeman's "R. E. Lee" vol. 2 pg.
            > 331:"
            > Lee turned to his signal officer, Captain J. L. Bartlett, who had
            > established his station near headquarters, and had him flag to
            > Jackson...." also found in OR, vol. 12, pt. II, 562-3.
            >
            > You had mentioned Bartlett in your GM article.
            >
            > Larry F.
            >
            > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "flagflop" <dwgaddy@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > To all concerned: Pardon the mess I hope I've straightened out.
            > with
            > > my long inability to post on the group, and indulge me, please,
            > > by
            > > returning to Dr. Tom's 19 Feb "Favor" and subsequent responses
            > > by
            > > Harry, Larry F., GE Mayers (at least) and allowing some
            > > comments
            > and
            > > re-affirmations. I've been involved in the Sugar Loaf inquiry
            > (direct
            > > correspondence), but just caught up with the related postings
            > > here.
            > >
            > > May I also refer you (if you have access) to my "Confederate
            > > Signal
            > > Corps at Gettysburg" in "Gettysburg" magazine Number Four (1
            > > Jan
            > > 1991), cited in Bobby Krick's "Staff Officers in Gray." There
            > > is no
            > > record that Lee had a Chief Signal Officer (CSO) on his staff,
            > > to
            > > best of my knowledge. As required, he used corps signal
            > > officer, of
            > > whom several are identified. During the Maryland campaign of
            > > Fall,
            > > 1862, two of the (later) corps-level SigO's were hors de
            > > combat --
            > > Capt. Wilbourn (Jackson) from wound during Second Manassas,
            > > forcing
            > > Jackson to employ a signalman who was detailed; and Capt.
            > > Manning
            > > (Longstreet) from a painful infection, making McLaws depend on
            > > an
            > > instructed staff officer. Capt. Randolph was probably with
            > > Harvey
            > > Hill on South Mountain and Capt. Frayser (replacing Capt
            > > Stuart,
            > KIA
            > > at Second Manassas) with Stuart. Generally speaking, each SigO
            > > had
            > a
            > > SigSgt as tech asst, some of which acted as local "officers" in
            > > charge, aka warrant officers.
            > >
            > > The SigCorps as authorized in Apr/May 62 had only Capts and
            > > Sgts.
            > > Lieutenants were added in Sep/Oct expansion, as were add'l
            > > Sgts --
            > a
            > > total of only 61 billets, with Capt Norris promoted to Maj and
            > Chief
            > > of the SigC.
            > >
            > > As noted in the postings, Norris generally remained in Richmond
            > (but
            > > did sally forth to meet the "victorious" army returning from
            > > Maryland, his home state) and was away nearly nine months
            > > because
            > of
            > > falling out with SecWar, leaving Capt Barker the
            > > officer-in-charge.
            > >
            > > "Secret Service" activity in the field was not part of the
            > > SigO's
            > job
            > > description -- that was a Richmond "back room operation" and
            > attached
            > > people were seldom regular signalmen. (The exceptions continue
            > > to
            > be
            > > interesting, but I don't want to leave the mounting impression
            > > that
            > > all CS sig officers were engaged in covert ops.)
            > >
            > > Dave Gaddy
            > >
            > > I hope this will be useful as we study the full Maryland
            > > campaign.
            > >
            > > The reported occupation of Sugar Loaf by CS signalmen
            > > (presumably
            > > from Stuart?) o/a 6/7 Sep until 11 Sep appears now to have been
            > > confirmed, and I appreciate see the citations.
            > >
            >
          • G E Mayers
            Dear Larry, Commanders of signals detachments either were Lieutenants or Captains. Confederate Signal Corps only had a single person with the rank of Major
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 15, 2008
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              Dear Larry,

              Commanders of signals detachments either were Lieutenants or
              Captains. Confederate Signal Corps only had a single person with
              the rank of Major until later in the War. That person was the
              head of the Signals Bureau in Richmond.

              Yr. Obt. Svt.
              G E "Gerry" Mayers

              To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
              on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
              Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
              the Almighty God. --Anonymous
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 9:31 PM
              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CS Signal Corps in the Maryland
              Campaign


              Gerry,
              Thanks, I saw that in his GM article and mentioned it in my
              response.
              I just wonder why Freeman and this OR cite show him as a Capt.
              and
              working for Lee--maybe just a misunderstanding--Freeman may not
              have
              known that he really worked for someone else? In this case, he
              was
              signalling from Longstreet's end of the line to Jackson's end.
              Maybe
              Dave found some good info in the archives?
              Larry F.
            • eighth_conn_inf
              Thanks, Gerry, I understand the ranks but the reason I mentioned at all is due to his footnote 23 on page 112, of GM Issue 4 Jan. 1991: OR, 19 (1), 953ff.
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 15, 2008
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                Thanks, Gerry,
                I understand the ranks but the reason I mentioned at all is due to
                his footnote 23 on page 112, of GM Issue 4 Jan. 1991: "OR, 19 (1),
                953ff. (The report on pp. 958-959 identified to 'Capt.' J. L.
                Bartlett was originated by an enlisted and detailed signalman serving
                Jackson, Captain Wilbourn having been seriously wounded at Second
                Manassas.)"

                These messages start on page 958 with "Report of Capt. J. L.
                Bartlett, Signal Officer, C. S. Army, of operations about Harper's
                Ferry, W Va." and end on page 959 with his other signatures as "JOS.
                L. BARTLETT" and "J. L. B.". He mentions Captain Adams on Loudoun
                Heights and that he (Bartlett) was acting under orders of Major
                Paxton.

                I look forward to the article about signal activities during the
                Maryland Campaign.

                Larry

                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Dear Larry,
                >
                > Commanders of signals detachments either were Lieutenants or
                > Captains. Confederate Signal Corps only had a single person with
                > the rank of Major until later in the War. That person was the
                > head of the Signals Bureau in Richmond.
                >
                > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                >
                > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 9:31 PM
                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: CS Signal Corps in the Maryland
                > Campaign
                >
                >
                > Gerry,
                > Thanks, I saw that in his GM article and mentioned it in my
                > response.
                > I just wonder why Freeman and this OR cite show him as a Capt.
                > and
                > working for Lee--maybe just a misunderstanding--Freeman may not
                > have
                > known that he really worked for someone else? In this case, he
                > was
                > signalling from Longstreet's end of the line to Jackson's end.
                > Maybe
                > Dave found some good info in the archives?
                > Larry F.
                >
              • flagflop
                Larry, Sorry to be late responding, but just returned from two weeks away. Dr. Freeman was wrong. (How that does pain me to say it!) But he was the victim of
                Message 7 of 8 , Mar 19, 2008
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                  Larry,
                  Sorry to be late responding, but just returned from two weeks away.
                  Dr. Freeman was wrong. (How that does pain me to say it!) But he was
                  the victim of mis-identification stemming from the OR editors. At
                  Second Manassas, the signalman serving Lee, by transmitting the query
                  to Jackson, was the same man who was serving Jackson during the
                  investment of Harper's Ferry the following month. After a long time
                  trying w/o success to identify "Capt. Bartlett," I went after the
                  original of Bartlett's HF report in the National Archives. Mike
                  Musick tracked it down, filed with the Second Manass report. Since it
                  was a report from "the signal person," that person was first ,is-
                  identified as "the signal officer." Then he became "Captain." Etc.,
                  etc. The name was published and indexed incorrectly compounded by the
                  incorrect rank. (In contemporary and post-war narratives, the rank
                  was also erroneously stated by H.K. Douglas and Imboden.) But (as
                  Brian has indicated in the introductory material to Antietam on the
                  Web), the individual was a detailed private. (He may, by 1864 have
                  been integrated into the "regular" signal corps as a Signal Sergeant,
                  but I can't yet confirm that. He was killed that summer.) That's the
                  story in a nutshell and "off the top."
                  Dave Gaddy

                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                  <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dave,
                  >
                  > I just noticed a passage in Freeman's "R. E. Lee" vol. 2 pg. 331:"
                  > Lee turned to his signal officer, Captain J. L. Bartlett, who had
                  > established his station near headquarters, and had him flag to
                  > Jackson...." also found in OR, vol. 12, pt. II, 562-3.
                  >
                  > You had mentioned Bartlett in your GM article.
                  >
                  > Larry F.
                  >
                • eighth_conn_inf
                  Dave, Thank you for clearing that up; it makes sense now. Perhaps when you write about the signal corps for both sides during the Maryland Campaign you will
                  Message 8 of 8 , Mar 20, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dave,

                    Thank you for clearing that up; it makes sense now.

                    Perhaps when you write about the signal corps for both sides during
                    the Maryland Campaign you will include telegraph communications also?

                    Larry

                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "flagflop" <dwgaddy@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Larry,
                    > Sorry to be late responding, but just returned from two weeks away.
                    > Dr. Freeman was wrong. (How that does pain me to say it!) But he
                    was
                    > the victim of mis-identification stemming from the OR editors. At
                    > Second Manassas, the signalman serving Lee, by transmitting the
                    query
                    > to Jackson, was the same man who was serving Jackson during the
                    > investment of Harper's Ferry the following month. After a long time
                    > trying w/o success to identify "Capt. Bartlett," I went after the
                    > original of Bartlett's HF report in the National Archives. Mike
                    > Musick tracked it down, filed with the Second Manass report. Since
                    it
                    > was a report from "the signal person," that person was first ,is-
                    > identified as "the signal officer." Then he became "Captain." Etc.,
                    > etc. The name was published and indexed incorrectly compounded by
                    the
                    > incorrect rank. (In contemporary and post-war narratives, the rank
                    > was also erroneously stated by H.K. Douglas and Imboden.) But (as
                    > Brian has indicated in the introductory material to Antietam on the
                    > Web), the individual was a detailed private. (He may, by 1864 have
                    > been integrated into the "regular" signal corps as a Signal
                    Sergeant,
                    > but I can't yet confirm that. He was killed that summer.) That's
                    the
                    > story in a nutshell and "off the top."
                    > Dave Gaddy
                    >
                    > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                    > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Dave,
                    > >
                    > > I just noticed a passage in Freeman's "R. E. Lee" vol. 2 pg.
                    331:"
                    > > Lee turned to his signal officer, Captain J. L. Bartlett, who had
                    > > established his station near headquarters, and had him flag to
                    > > Jackson...." also found in OR, vol. 12, pt. II, 562-3.
                    > >
                    > > You had mentioned Bartlett in your GM article.
                    > >
                    > > Larry F.
                    > >
                    >
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