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Regimental numbers during the Maryland Campaign

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  • eighth_conn_inf
    All, I have been unable to come up with any numbers to check Sid s in his game. Those seem low compared to the 2 Sept. numbers I ve seen in John Owen Allen s
    Message 1 of 21 , Feb 12, 2008
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      All,

      I have been unable to come up with any numbers to check Sid's in his
      game. Those seem low compared to the 2 Sept. numbers I've seen in John
      Owen Allen's Master's Thesis, George Mason University (1993)"The
      Strength of the Union and Confederate Forces at Second Manassas," but
      attrition from then for the Confederates was very heavy of course
      assuming that Sid's numbers are for 17 September. And the 2 Sept.
      numbers only cover Pope for the Union. I don't think my professor will
      appreciate my footnoting Sid's game!

      Has anyone seen regimental numbers for the Maryland Campaign or
      Antietam? Otherwise, going to NARA and looking at morning reports,
      muster rolls, regimenal books,etc., may be the only way to get some
      better idea of the numbers. Any suggestions?

      Dean--can you divulge how you got/will get your regimental numbers for
      your game?

      Thanks,
      Larry
    • Dean Essig
      Hi Larry! Most of mine came from the regimental files in the park library. Ted Alexander set some grad students to work on compiling a file on each regiment in
      Message 2 of 21 , Feb 12, 2008
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        Hi Larry!

        Most of mine came from the regimental files in the
        park library. Ted Alexander set some grad students to
        work on compiling a file on each regiment in the
        battle which included the best strength numbers they
        could assemble, a map showing the movements of the
        unit throughout the battle, clippings from newspapers
        with articles about vets, monuments, and so on after
        the war

        Great resource.

        Is there any specific unit(s) you are curious about? I
        found my original notes on the strength numbers I have
        and where they came from... I can tell you what I
        know.

        Dean

        --- eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:

        > All,
        >
        > I have been unable to come up with any numbers to
        > check Sid's in his
        > game. Those seem low compared to the 2 Sept. numbers
        > I've seen in John
        > Owen Allen's Master's Thesis, George Mason
        > University (1993)"The
        > Strength of the Union and Confederate Forces at
        > Second Manassas," but
        > attrition from then for the Confederates was very
        > heavy of course
        > assuming that Sid's numbers are for 17 September.
        > And the 2 Sept.
        > numbers only cover Pope for the Union. I don't think
        > my professor will
        > appreciate my footnoting Sid's game!
        >
        > Has anyone seen regimental numbers for the Maryland
        > Campaign or
        > Antietam? Otherwise, going to NARA and looking at
        > morning reports,
        > muster rolls, regimenal books,etc., may be the only
        > way to get some
        > better idea of the numbers. Any suggestions?
        >
        > Dean--can you divulge how you got/will get your
        > regimental numbers for
        > your game?
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Larry
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >



        ____________________________________________________________________________________
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      • eighth_conn_inf
        Dean, Thanks very much for this info! The units I m looking for are all cav units on both sides and horse artillery. My paper is on cav during the Maryland
        Message 3 of 21 , Feb 12, 2008
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          Dean,

          Thanks very much for this info! The units I'm looking for are all cav
          units on both sides and horse artillery. My paper is on cav during
          the Maryland Campaign.

          Larry

          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Dean Essig <dean_essig@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Hi Larry!
          >
          > Most of mine came from the regimental files in the
          > park library. Ted Alexander set some grad students to
          > work on compiling a file on each regiment in the
          > battle which included the best strength numbers they
          > could assemble, a map showing the movements of the
          > unit throughout the battle, clippings from newspapers
          > with articles about vets, monuments, and so on after
          > the war
          >
          > Great resource.
          >
          > Is there any specific unit(s) you are curious about? I
          > found my original notes on the strength numbers I have
          > and where they came from... I can tell you what I
          > know.
          >
          > Dean
          >
          > --- eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
          >
          > > All,
          > >
          > > I have been unable to come up with any numbers to
          > > check Sid's in his
          > > game. Those seem low compared to the 2 Sept. numbers
          > > I've seen in John
          > > Owen Allen's Master's Thesis, George Mason
          > > University (1993)"The
          > > Strength of the Union and Confederate Forces at
          > > Second Manassas," but
          > > attrition from then for the Confederates was very
          > > heavy of course
          > > assuming that Sid's numbers are for 17 September.
          > > And the 2 Sept.
          > > numbers only cover Pope for the Union. I don't think
          > > my professor will
          > > appreciate my footnoting Sid's game!
          > >
          > > Has anyone seen regimental numbers for the Maryland
          > > Campaign or
          > > Antietam? Otherwise, going to NARA and looking at
          > > morning reports,
          > > muster rolls, regimenal books,etc., may be the only
          > > way to get some
          > > better idea of the numbers. Any suggestions?
          > >
          > > Dean--can you divulge how you got/will get your
          > > regimental numbers for
          > > your game?
          > >
          > > Thanks,
          > > Larry
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          ______________________________________________________________________
          ______________
          > Be a better friend, newshound, and
          > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
          http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
          >
        • Dean Essig
          Cav numbers are pretty sketchy. Priest gives 4320 for the division. The park had nothing. So, my cav numbers are estimates at best... if you have anything
          Message 4 of 21 , Feb 12, 2008
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            Cav numbers are pretty sketchy. Priest gives 4320 for
            the division. The park had nothing. So, my cav numbers
            are estimates at best... if you have anything harder,
            I'd love to see them.

            For weapons, (all data from Todd):
            8 Ill, 3 Ind, 4 Penn, 1 NY, 12 Penn, 8 NY, 3 Penn, 1
            Maine all with Carbines of various types

            1 Mass, 15 Penn are armed with pistols.

            (I listed all of the ones I had data on, it obviously
            includes some units that weren't in the battle.)

            The horse artillery is easier:

            A, 2 US--6x Napoleons
            B&L, 2 US--4x Napoleons
            M, 2 US--6x Rifles
            C&G, 3 US--6x Rifles

            These are all from the Paul Chiles B&G article.

            I have a scattering of weapon data for the various HQ
            guard units.

            The Rebel information is about the same level.

            4500 total for the Cav division (Carmen)

            1 NC, 1 VA, 3 VA, 4 VA, 5 VA, 2 VA, 12 VA with pistols

            2 NC, 7 VA, Cobb Legion with rifles (2 NC also listed
            for pistols)

            Batteries (info from Anderson):
            Hart SC (4x rifles w/o ammo at Boteler's Ford)
            Pelham (8x guns, two 4-gun sections, various gun types
            nothing firm)
            Chew Va 3x Rifles, 1x Napoleon

            (There is a story to go with the Napoleon in Chew's
            Battery... something along the lines of they had it
            for a period of the war but found it to be too heavy
            to keep up with the cavalry and eventually (before
            Gettysburg?) got rid of it.)

            Hope that helps.

            Dean





            --- eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:

            > Dean,
            >
            > Thanks very much for this info! The units I'm
            > looking for are all cav
            > units on both sides and horse artillery. My paper is
            > on cav during
            > the Maryland Campaign.
            >
            > Larry


            ____________________________________________________________________________________
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          • eighth_conn_inf
            Thanks Dean, The total cav numbers in Carman, OR, etc., are good but unit numbers are lacking. It is unlikely I can research unit numbers at NARA so I might
            Message 5 of 21 , Feb 13, 2008
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              Thanks Dean,

              The total cav numbers in Carman, OR, etc., are good but unit numbers
              are lacking. It is unlikely I can research unit numbers at NARA so I
              might have to come up with some estimates like Harsh did in STS page
              191-192.

              I have the CW Equipage book on the way so I can reference weapons.

              Cannon types/numbers are around but as you point out are incomplete
              in some areas but I will use Trout, "Galloping Thunder" and
              Johnson, "Artillery Hell" as follows: Trout, 8. At the Battle of
              Antietam on 17 September, only Pelham's Battery was engaged with two,
              three inch ordnance rifles; one, twelve pound Napoleon, and five
              unidentified guns. It abandoned its howitzers for Ordnance rifles
              captured on 27 August 1862 at Manassas Junction. Hart's Battery had
              four, twelve pound Blakeley guns and Chew's Battery had two or three,
              three inch Ordnance rifles, one Blakely Rifle and one, twelve pound
              smoothbore howitzer, Curt Johnson and Richard C. Anderson, Jr.,
              Artillery Hell: The Employment of Artillery at Antietam, (College
              Station, TX: Texas A&M University Press, 1995), 100-101. Union horse
              artillery, Second U. S. Battery A, had six, twelve pound smooth bore
              Napoleons, Second U. S. Batteries B and L had four, twelve pound
              smooth bore Napoleons, and Battery M of the Second had six, three
              inch Ordnance rifles. Batteries C and G of the Third U. S. Artillery
              had six, three inch Ordnance rifles, Johnson, 35.

              Thanks,
              Larry

              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Dean Essig <dean_essig@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Cav numbers are pretty sketchy. Priest gives 4320 for
              > the division. The park had nothing. So, my cav numbers
              > are estimates at best... if you have anything harder,
              > I'd love to see them.
              >
              > For weapons, (all data from Todd):
              > 8 Ill, 3 Ind, 4 Penn, 1 NY, 12 Penn, 8 NY, 3 Penn, 1
              > Maine all with Carbines of various types
              >
              > 1 Mass, 15 Penn are armed with pistols.
              >
              > (I listed all of the ones I had data on, it obviously
              > includes some units that weren't in the battle.)
              >
              > The horse artillery is easier:
              >
              > A, 2 US--6x Napoleons
              > B&L, 2 US--4x Napoleons
              > M, 2 US--6x Rifles
              > C&G, 3 US--6x Rifles
              >
              > These are all from the Paul Chiles B&G article.
              >
              > I have a scattering of weapon data for the various HQ
              > guard units.
              >
              > The Rebel information is about the same level.
              >
              > 4500 total for the Cav division (Carmen)
              >
              > 1 NC, 1 VA, 3 VA, 4 VA, 5 VA, 2 VA, 12 VA with pistols
              >
              > 2 NC, 7 VA, Cobb Legion with rifles (2 NC also listed
              > for pistols)
              >
              > Batteries (info from Anderson):
              > Hart SC (4x rifles w/o ammo at Boteler's Ford)
              > Pelham (8x guns, two 4-gun sections, various gun types
              > nothing firm)
              > Chew Va 3x Rifles, 1x Napoleon
              >
              > (There is a story to go with the Napoleon in Chew's
              > Battery... something along the lines of they had it
              > for a period of the war but found it to be too heavy
              > to keep up with the cavalry and eventually (before
              > Gettysburg?) got rid of it.)
              >
              > Hope that helps.
              >
              > Dean
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
              >
              > > Dean,
              > >
              > > Thanks very much for this info! The units I'm
              > > looking for are all cav
              > > units on both sides and horse artillery. My paper is
              > > on cav during
              > > the Maryland Campaign.
              > >
              > > Larry
              >
              >
              >
              ______________________________________________________________________
              ______________
              > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
              > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
              http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
              >
            • dean_essig
              Larry, I just tasked my DC researcher with turning NARA inside out looking for morning muster reports. If there is anything available, he ll find it. I had
              Message 6 of 21 , Feb 13, 2008
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                Larry,

                I just tasked my DC researcher with turning NARA inside out looking for morning muster
                reports. If there is anything available, he'll find it. I had several infantry units and _all_ the cav
                on my 'soft' list, so he'll be looking for them specifically.

                I'll let you know if he uncovers anything.

                Dean
              • Thomas Clemens
                Larry, Don t forget that Carman s numbers are for Sept. 17 only. Much of the cav present by then was not present earlier in the campaign. It would be a gross
                Message 7 of 21 , Feb 13, 2008
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                  Larry,
                  Don't forget that Carman's numbers are for Sept. 17 only. Much of the cav present by then was not present earlier in the campaign. It would be a gross mistake to call the cav divisions roughly equal in number before the 17th.


                  Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  Professor of History
                  Hagerstown Community College


                  >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 02/13/08 7:47 AM >>>
                  Thanks Dean,

                  The total cav numbers in Carman, OR, etc., are good but unit numbers
                  are lacking. It is unlikely I can research unit numbers at NARA so I
                  might have to come up with some estimates like Harsh did in STS page
                  191-192.

                  I have the CW Equipage book on the way so I can reference weapons.

                  Cannon types/numbers are around but as you point out are incomplete
                  in some areas but I will use Trout, "Galloping Thunder" and
                  Johnson, "Artillery Hell" as follows: Trout, 8. At the Battle of
                  Antietam on 17 September, only Pelham's Battery was engaged with two,
                  three inch ordnance rifles; one, twelve pound Napoleon, and five
                  unidentified guns. It abandoned its howitzers for Ordnance rifles
                  captured on 27 August 1862 at Manassas Junction. Hart's Battery had
                  four, twelve pound Blakeley guns and Chew's Battery had two or three,
                  three inch Ordnance rifles, one Blakely Rifle and one, twelve pound
                  smoothbore howitzer, Curt Johnson and Richard C. Anderson, Jr.,
                  Artillery Hell: The Employment of Artillery at Antietam, (College
                  Station, TX: Texas A&M University Press, 1995), 100-101. Union horse
                  artillery, Second U. S. Battery A, had six, twelve pound smooth bore
                  Napoleons, Second U. S. Batteries B and L had four, twelve pound
                  smooth bore Napoleons, and Battery M of the Second had six, three
                  inch Ordnance rifles. Batteries C and G of the Third U. S. Artillery
                  had six, three inch Ordnance rifles, Johnson, 35.

                  Thanks,
                  Larry

                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Dean Essig <dean_essig@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Cav numbers are pretty sketchy. Priest gives 4320 for
                  > the division. The park had nothing. So, my cav numbers
                  > are estimates at best... if you have anything harder,
                  > I'd love to see them.
                  >
                  > For weapons, (all data from Todd):
                  > 8 Ill, 3 Ind, 4 Penn, 1 NY, 12 Penn, 8 NY, 3 Penn, 1
                  > Maine all with Carbines of various types
                  >
                  > 1 Mass, 15 Penn are armed with pistols.
                  >
                  > (I listed all of the ones I had data on, it obviously
                  > includes some units that weren't in the battle.)
                  >
                  > The horse artillery is easier:
                  >
                  > A, 2 US--6x Napoleons
                  > B&L, 2 US--4x Napoleons
                  > M, 2 US--6x Rifles
                  > C&G, 3 US--6x Rifles
                  >
                  > These are all from the Paul Chiles B&G article.
                  >
                  > I have a scattering of weapon data for the various HQ
                  > guard units.
                  >
                  > The Rebel information is about the same level.
                  >
                  > 4500 total for the Cav division (Carmen)
                  >
                  > 1 NC, 1 VA, 3 VA, 4 VA, 5 VA, 2 VA, 12 VA with pistols
                  >
                  > 2 NC, 7 VA, Cobb Legion with rifles (2 NC also listed
                  > for pistols)
                  >
                  > Batteries (info from Anderson):
                  > Hart SC (4x rifles w/o ammo at Boteler's Ford)
                  > Pelham (8x guns, two 4-gun sections, various gun types
                  > nothing firm)
                  > Chew Va 3x Rifles, 1x Napoleon
                  >
                  > (There is a story to go with the Napoleon in Chew's
                  > Battery... something along the lines of they had it
                  > for a period of the war but found it to be too heavy
                  > to keep up with the cavalry and eventually (before
                  > Gettysburg?) got rid of it.)
                  >
                  > Hope that helps.
                  >
                  > Dean
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Dean,
                  > >
                  > > Thanks very much for this info! The units I'm
                  > > looking for are all cav
                  > > units on both sides and horse artillery. My paper is
                  > > on cav during
                  > > the Maryland Campaign.
                  > >
                  > > Larry
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  ______________________________________________________________________
                  ______________
                  > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                  > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                  http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
                  >
                • eighth_conn_inf
                  Excellent, thank you again--that would be terrific! Larry F. ... for morning muster ... infantry units and _all_ the cav
                  Message 8 of 21 , Feb 13, 2008
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                    Excellent, thank you again--that would be terrific!

                    Larry F.

                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Larry,
                    >
                    > I just tasked my DC researcher with turning NARA inside out looking
                    for morning muster
                    > reports. If there is anything available, he'll find it. I had several
                    infantry units and _all_ the cav
                    > on my 'soft' list, so he'll be looking for them specifically.
                    >
                    > I'll let you know if he uncovers anything.
                    >
                    > Dean
                    >
                  • eighth_conn_inf
                    Tom, Thanks very much for the reminder! Using hard numbers for the cav is difficult as you point out since Union cavalry was arriving all through the
                    Message 9 of 21 , Feb 13, 2008
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                      Tom,

                      Thanks very much for the reminder! Using "hard" numbers for the cav
                      is difficult as you point out since Union cavalry was arriving all
                      through the campaign. I will have to use many caveats to explain
                      numbers from 2 September to 20 September but have to base the numbers
                      on what I have in Carman, ORs, regimental histories, etc.

                      If Sid's numbers are anywhere near accurate (+/- 20%) then I will
                      have much explaining to do re my estimates. I certainly don't have
                      evidence to estimate Union numbers especially on a daily basis for
                      that period unless Dean's researcher comes up with something. Conf.
                      numbers as you know are always questionable in the best of
                      circumstances and it is very unlikely IMO that they have daily
                      reports for the cav. for this campaign. And as we know, numbers of
                      men actually on their horses ready for duty is much smaller that
                      numbers on the rolls, present for duty, etc. But even using Sid's
                      numbers including horse artillery, Union 2976, Conf. 2724, the
                      numbers are believable IMO for 17 September.

                      Here is the data I have so far:

                      Union
                      4,320 on 17 September 1862 (OR, 19, pt. I, 67); 3,828 cavalry and
                      artillery 492 (Carman, 459)

                      4,543 present for duty on 20 and 30 September 1862; aggregate
                      including absent: 7,686 (OR, 19, pt. II, 336,374)

                      7,000 plus 600 horse artillery on 1 October 1862 (estimated) (OR, pt.
                      I, 97)

                      5,058 present for duty including horse artillery on 10 October 1862;
                      aggregate including absent: 7,686(OR, pt. II, 410)

                      8,391 on 1 November 1862 (including horse artillery) (OR, pt. I, 98)

                      Confederate
                      4,155 on 2 September 1862 (Sounding the Shallows, 139)

                      4,500 on 17 September 1862 (Carman, 465, Sounding the Shallows, 201)

                      If anyone has better data, please let me know.

                      Thank you,
                      Larry




                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Larry,
                      > Don't forget that Carman's numbers are for Sept. 17 only. Much of
                      the cav present by then was not present earlier in the campaign. It
                      would be a gross mistake to call the cav divisions roughly equal in
                      number before the 17th.
                      >
                      >
                      > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      > Professor of History
                      > Hagerstown Community College
                      >
                      >
                      > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 02/13/08 7:47 AM >>>
                      > Thanks Dean,
                      >
                      > The total cav numbers in Carman, OR, etc., are good but unit
                      numbers
                      > are lacking. It is unlikely I can research unit numbers at NARA so
                      I
                      > might have to come up with some estimates like Harsh did in STS
                      page
                      > 191-192.
                      >
                      > I have the CW Equipage book on the way so I can reference weapons.
                      >
                      > Cannon types/numbers are around but as you point out are incomplete
                      > in some areas but I will use Trout, "Galloping Thunder" and
                      > Johnson, "Artillery Hell" as follows: Trout, 8. At the Battle of
                      > Antietam on 17 September, only Pelham's Battery was engaged with
                      two,
                      > three inch ordnance rifles; one, twelve pound Napoleon, and five
                      > unidentified guns. It abandoned its howitzers for Ordnance rifles
                      > captured on 27 August 1862 at Manassas Junction. Hart's Battery had
                      > four, twelve pound Blakeley guns and Chew's Battery had two or
                      three,
                      > three inch Ordnance rifles, one Blakely Rifle and one, twelve pound
                      > smoothbore howitzer, Curt Johnson and Richard C. Anderson, Jr.,
                      > Artillery Hell: The Employment of Artillery at Antietam, (College
                      > Station, TX: Texas A&M University Press, 1995), 100-101. Union
                      horse
                      > artillery, Second U. S. Battery A, had six, twelve pound smooth
                      bore
                      > Napoleons, Second U. S. Batteries B and L had four, twelve pound
                      > smooth bore Napoleons, and Battery M of the Second had six, three
                      > inch Ordnance rifles. Batteries C and G of the Third U. S.
                      Artillery
                      > had six, three inch Ordnance rifles, Johnson, 35.
                      >
                      > Thanks,
                      > Larry
                      >
                      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Dean Essig <dean_essig@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Cav numbers are pretty sketchy. Priest gives 4320 for
                      > > the division. The park had nothing. So, my cav numbers
                      > > are estimates at best... if you have anything harder,
                      > > I'd love to see them.
                      > >
                      > > For weapons, (all data from Todd):
                      > > 8 Ill, 3 Ind, 4 Penn, 1 NY, 12 Penn, 8 NY, 3 Penn, 1
                      > > Maine all with Carbines of various types
                      > >
                      > > 1 Mass, 15 Penn are armed with pistols.
                      > >
                      > > (I listed all of the ones I had data on, it obviously
                      > > includes some units that weren't in the battle.)
                      > >
                      > > The horse artillery is easier:
                      > >
                      > > A, 2 US--6x Napoleons
                      > > B&L, 2 US--4x Napoleons
                      > > M, 2 US--6x Rifles
                      > > C&G, 3 US--6x Rifles
                      > >
                      > > These are all from the Paul Chiles B&G article.
                      > >
                      > > I have a scattering of weapon data for the various HQ
                      > > guard units.
                      > >
                      > > The Rebel information is about the same level.
                      > >
                      > > 4500 total for the Cav division (Carmen)
                      > >
                      > > 1 NC, 1 VA, 3 VA, 4 VA, 5 VA, 2 VA, 12 VA with pistols
                      > >
                      > > 2 NC, 7 VA, Cobb Legion with rifles (2 NC also listed
                      > > for pistols)
                      > >
                      > > Batteries (info from Anderson):
                      > > Hart SC (4x rifles w/o ammo at Boteler's Ford)
                      > > Pelham (8x guns, two 4-gun sections, various gun types
                      > > nothing firm)
                      > > Chew Va 3x Rifles, 1x Napoleon
                      > >
                      > > (There is a story to go with the Napoleon in Chew's
                      > > Battery... something along the lines of they had it
                      > > for a period of the war but found it to be too heavy
                      > > to keep up with the cavalry and eventually (before
                      > > Gettysburg?) got rid of it.)
                      > >
                      > > Hope that helps.
                      > >
                      > > Dean
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > Dean,
                      > > >
                      > > > Thanks very much for this info! The units I'm
                      > > > looking for are all cav
                      > > > units on both sides and horse artillery. My paper is
                      > > > on cav during
                      > > > the Maryland Campaign.
                      > > >
                      > > > Larry
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      ______________________________________________________________________
                      > ______________
                      > > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                      > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                      > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?
                      category=shopping
                      > >
                      >
                    • Larry Freiheit
                      Dean, I hope your researcher has success. I ve attached FYI an interesting account of how one person reported on MHO how he did research at NARA for a
                      Message 10 of 21 , Feb 13, 2008
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                        Dean,

                        I hope your researcher has success.

                        I've attached FYI an interesting account of how one person reported on MHO how he did research at NARA for a particular regiment. It sounded like a lot of work and that was only for one unit!

                        I'm sure your researcher knows this stuff so don't pass this on unless you think it will be helpful for some reason.

                        Again, I appreciate your efforts and look forward to buying your game!

                        Larry

                        dean_essig <dean_essig@...> wrote:
                        Larry,

                        I just tasked my DC researcher with turning NARA inside out looking for morning muster
                        reports. If there is anything available, he'll find it. I had several infantry units and _all_ the cav
                        on my 'soft' list, so he'll be looking for them specifically.

                        I'll let you know if he uncovers anything.

                        Dean






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                      • Dean Essig
                        Larry, I didn t get the attachment... please send directly to d.essig@insightbb.com Thanks! Dean ...
                        Message 11 of 21 , Feb 13, 2008
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                          Larry,

                          I didn't get the attachment... please send directly to
                          d.essig@...

                          Thanks!

                          Dean

                          --- Larry Freiheit <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:

                          > Dean,
                          >
                          > I hope your researcher has success.
                          >
                          > I've attached FYI an interesting account of how
                          > one person reported on MHO how he did research at
                          > NARA for a particular regiment. It sounded like a
                          > lot of work and that was only for one unit!
                          >
                          > I'm sure your researcher knows this stuff so don't
                          > pass this on unless you think it will be helpful for
                          > some reason.
                          >
                          > Again, I appreciate your efforts and look forward
                          > to buying your game!
                          >
                          > Larry
                          >
                          > dean_essig <dean_essig@...> wrote:
                          > Larry,
                          >
                          > I just tasked my DC researcher with turning NARA
                          > inside out looking for morning muster
                          > reports. If there is anything available, he'll find
                          > it. I had several infantry units and _all_ the cav
                          > on my 'soft' list, so he'll be looking for them
                          > specifically.
                          >
                          > I'll let you know if he uncovers anything.
                          >
                          > Dean
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                          > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                          > removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >



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                        • eighth_conn_inf
                          Oops, these numbers from Sid EXCLUDE horse artillery: Union 2976, Conf. 2724. Is Sid still around or has he gone to his reward? Larry ... numbers ... pt. ...
                          Message 12 of 21 , Feb 14, 2008
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                            Oops, these numbers from Sid EXCLUDE horse artillery:

                            Union 2976, Conf. 2724.

                            Is Sid still around or has he gone to his reward?

                            Larry
                            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                            <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Tom,
                            >
                            > Thanks very much for the reminder! Using "hard" numbers for the cav
                            > is difficult as you point out since Union cavalry was arriving all
                            > through the campaign. I will have to use many caveats to explain
                            > numbers from 2 September to 20 September but have to base the
                            numbers
                            > on what I have in Carman, ORs, regimental histories, etc.
                            >
                            > If Sid's numbers are anywhere near accurate (+/- 20%) then I will
                            > have much explaining to do re my estimates. I certainly don't have
                            > evidence to estimate Union numbers especially on a daily basis for
                            > that period unless Dean's researcher comes up with something. Conf.
                            > numbers as you know are always questionable in the best of
                            > circumstances and it is very unlikely IMO that they have daily
                            > reports for the cav. for this campaign. And as we know, numbers of
                            > men actually on their horses ready for duty is much smaller that
                            > numbers on the rolls, present for duty, etc. But even using Sid's
                            > numbers including horse artillery, Union 2976, Conf. 2724, the
                            > numbers are believable IMO for 17 September.
                            >
                            > Here is the data I have so far:
                            >
                            > Union
                            > 4,320 on 17 September 1862 (OR, 19, pt. I, 67); 3,828 cavalry and
                            > artillery 492 (Carman, 459)
                            >
                            > 4,543 present for duty on 20 and 30 September 1862; aggregate
                            > including absent: 7,686 (OR, 19, pt. II, 336,374)
                            >
                            > 7,000 plus 600 horse artillery on 1 October 1862 (estimated) (OR,
                            pt.
                            > I, 97)
                            >
                            > 5,058 present for duty including horse artillery on 10 October
                            1862;
                            > aggregate including absent: 7,686(OR, pt. II, 410)
                            >
                            > 8,391 on 1 November 1862 (including horse artillery) (OR, pt. I, 98)
                            >
                            > Confederate
                            > 4,155 on 2 September 1862 (Sounding the Shallows, 139)
                            >
                            > 4,500 on 17 September 1862 (Carman, 465, Sounding the Shallows,
                            201)
                            >
                            > If anyone has better data, please let me know.
                            >
                            > Thank you,
                            > Larry
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Larry,
                            > > Don't forget that Carman's numbers are for Sept. 17 only. Much
                            of
                            > the cav present by then was not present earlier in the campaign.
                            It
                            > would be a gross mistake to call the cav divisions roughly equal in
                            > number before the 17th.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                            > > Professor of History
                            > > Hagerstown Community College
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@> 02/13/08 7:47 AM >>>
                            > > Thanks Dean,
                            > >
                            > > The total cav numbers in Carman, OR, etc., are good but unit
                            > numbers
                            > > are lacking. It is unlikely I can research unit numbers at NARA
                            so
                            > I
                            > > might have to come up with some estimates like Harsh did in STS
                            > page
                            > > 191-192.
                            > >
                            > > I have the CW Equipage book on the way so I can reference weapons.
                            > >
                            > > Cannon types/numbers are around but as you point out are
                            incomplete
                            > > in some areas but I will use Trout, "Galloping Thunder" and
                            > > Johnson, "Artillery Hell" as follows: Trout, 8. At the Battle of
                            > > Antietam on 17 September, only Pelham's Battery was engaged with
                            > two,
                            > > three inch ordnance rifles; one, twelve pound Napoleon, and five
                            > > unidentified guns. It abandoned its howitzers for Ordnance rifles
                            > > captured on 27 August 1862 at Manassas Junction. Hart's Battery
                            had
                            > > four, twelve pound Blakeley guns and Chew's Battery had two or
                            > three,
                            > > three inch Ordnance rifles, one Blakely Rifle and one, twelve
                            pound
                            > > smoothbore howitzer, Curt Johnson and Richard C. Anderson, Jr.,
                            > > Artillery Hell: The Employment of Artillery at Antietam, (College
                            > > Station, TX: Texas A&M University Press, 1995), 100-101. Union
                            > horse
                            > > artillery, Second U. S. Battery A, had six, twelve pound smooth
                            > bore
                            > > Napoleons, Second U. S. Batteries B and L had four, twelve pound
                            > > smooth bore Napoleons, and Battery M of the Second had six, three
                            > > inch Ordnance rifles. Batteries C and G of the Third U. S.
                            > Artillery
                            > > had six, three inch Ordnance rifles, Johnson, 35.
                            > >
                            > > Thanks,
                            > > Larry
                            > >
                            > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Dean Essig <dean_essig@>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Cav numbers are pretty sketchy. Priest gives 4320 for
                            > > > the division. The park had nothing. So, my cav numbers
                            > > > are estimates at best... if you have anything harder,
                            > > > I'd love to see them.
                            > > >
                            > > > For weapons, (all data from Todd):
                            > > > 8 Ill, 3 Ind, 4 Penn, 1 NY, 12 Penn, 8 NY, 3 Penn, 1
                            > > > Maine all with Carbines of various types
                            > > >
                            > > > 1 Mass, 15 Penn are armed with pistols.
                            > > >
                            > > > (I listed all of the ones I had data on, it obviously
                            > > > includes some units that weren't in the battle.)
                            > > >
                            > > > The horse artillery is easier:
                            > > >
                            > > > A, 2 US--6x Napoleons
                            > > > B&L, 2 US--4x Napoleons
                            > > > M, 2 US--6x Rifles
                            > > > C&G, 3 US--6x Rifles
                            > > >
                            > > > These are all from the Paul Chiles B&G article.
                            > > >
                            > > > I have a scattering of weapon data for the various HQ
                            > > > guard units.
                            > > >
                            > > > The Rebel information is about the same level.
                            > > >
                            > > > 4500 total for the Cav division (Carmen)
                            > > >
                            > > > 1 NC, 1 VA, 3 VA, 4 VA, 5 VA, 2 VA, 12 VA with pistols
                            > > >
                            > > > 2 NC, 7 VA, Cobb Legion with rifles (2 NC also listed
                            > > > for pistols)
                            > > >
                            > > > Batteries (info from Anderson):
                            > > > Hart SC (4x rifles w/o ammo at Boteler's Ford)
                            > > > Pelham (8x guns, two 4-gun sections, various gun types
                            > > > nothing firm)
                            > > > Chew Va 3x Rifles, 1x Napoleon
                            > > >
                            > > > (There is a story to go with the Napoleon in Chew's
                            > > > Battery... something along the lines of they had it
                            > > > for a period of the war but found it to be too heavy
                            > > > to keep up with the cavalry and eventually (before
                            > > > Gettysburg?) got rid of it.)
                            > > >
                            > > > Hope that helps.
                            > > >
                            > > > Dean
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > > Dean,
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Thanks very much for this info! The units I'm
                            > > > > looking for are all cav
                            > > > > units on both sides and horse artillery. My paper is
                            > > > > on cav during
                            > > > > the Maryland Campaign.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Larry
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                            ______________________________________________________________________
                            > > ______________
                            > > > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                            > > > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
                            > > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?
                            > category=shopping
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • RoteBaron
                            Larry, Sid Meier is Director of Creative Development for Firaxis. Here is the info: http://www.firaxis.com/company/bios.php?bioid=56 I enjoyed Sid s Antietam
                            Message 13 of 21 , Feb 14, 2008
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                              Larry,

                              Sid Meier is Director of Creative Development for Firaxis.
                              Here is the info: http://www.firaxis.com/company/bios.php?bioid=56

                              I enjoyed Sid's Antietam PC game. Admittedly it was excessively detailed, but that made playing it a fun experience. I found a website with the free add-on for the South Mountain battles and also enjoyed those.

                              For more detailed simulations, I go with Dean Essig's boardgames (such as Shiloh, Antietam, Seven Days). Certainly they take time to learn, but they reward me with a great historical simulation.

                              Tom Shay


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: eighth_conn_inf
                              To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 3:12 PM
                              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Regimental numbers during the Maryland Campaign


                              Oops, these numbers from Sid EXCLUDE horse artillery:

                              Union 2976, Conf. 2724.

                              Is Sid still around or has he gone to his reward?

                              Larry
                              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                              <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              Recent Activity
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                              A resource for living

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                              .


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • eighth_conn_inf
                              Thanks, Tom--maybe I ll send an e-mail to ask about his numbers. Larry ... detailed, but that made playing it a fun experience. I found a website with the free
                              Message 14 of 21 , Feb 14, 2008
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                                Thanks, Tom--maybe I'll send an e-mail to ask about his numbers.

                                Larry


                                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Larry,
                                >
                                > Sid Meier is Director of Creative Development for Firaxis.
                                > Here is the info: http://www.firaxis.com/company/bios.php?bioid=56
                                >
                                > I enjoyed Sid's Antietam PC game. Admittedly it was excessively
                                detailed, but that made playing it a fun experience. I found a
                                website with the free add-on for the South Mountain battles and also
                                enjoyed those.
                                >
                                > For more detailed simulations, I go with Dean Essig's boardgames
                                (such as Shiloh, Antietam, Seven Days). Certainly they take time to
                                learn, but they reward me with a great historical simulation.
                                >
                                > Tom Shay
                                >
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: eighth_conn_inf
                                > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 3:12 PM
                                > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Regimental numbers during the
                                Maryland Campaign
                                >
                                >
                                > Oops, these numbers from Sid EXCLUDE horse artillery:
                                >
                                > Union 2976, Conf. 2724.
                                >
                                > Is Sid still around or has he gone to his reward?
                                >
                                > Larry
                                > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
                                > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > Recent Activity
                                > a.. 1New Members
                                > Visit Your Group
                                > Only on Yahoo!
                                > Star Wars galaxy
                                >
                                > Create a profile
                                >
                                > and meet fans.
                                >
                                > Yahoo! News
                                > Fashion News
                                >
                                > What's the word on
                                >
                                > fashion and style?
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups
                                > Wellness Spot
                                >
                                > A resource for living
                                >
                                > the Curves lifestyle.
                                > .
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • RoteBaron
                                Larry, If you get a reply from Sid, please share it with us. Tom Shay ... From: eighth_conn_inf To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 14,
                                Message 15 of 21 , Feb 14, 2008
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                                  Larry,

                                  If you get a reply from Sid, please share it with us.

                                  Tom Shay

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: eighth_conn_inf
                                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 9:14 PM
                                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Regimental numbers during the Maryland Campaign


                                  Thanks, Tom--maybe I'll send an e-mail to ask about his numbers.

                                  Larry

                                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Larry,
                                  >
                                  > Sid Meier is Director of Creative Development for Firaxis.
                                  > Here is the info: http://www.firaxis.com/company/bios.php?bioid=56
                                  >
                                  > I enjoyed Sid's Antietam PC game. Admittedly it was excessively
                                  detailed, but that made playing it a fun experience. I found a
                                  website with the free add-on for the South Mountain battles and also
                                  enjoyed those.
                                  >
                                  > For more detailed simulations, I go with Dean Essig's boardgames
                                  (such as Shiloh, Antietam, Seven Days). Certainly they take time to
                                  learn, but they reward me with a great historical simulation.
                                  >
                                  > Tom Shay
                                  Recent Activity
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                                  .


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • eighth_conn_inf
                                  Will do. Larry ... Maryland Campaign ... bioid=56 ... also ... boardgames ... to
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Feb 15, 2008
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                                    Will do.
                                    Larry
                                    --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Larry,
                                    >
                                    > If you get a reply from Sid, please share it with us.
                                    >
                                    > Tom Shay
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: eighth_conn_inf
                                    > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 9:14 PM
                                    > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Regimental numbers during the
                                    Maryland Campaign
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Thanks, Tom--maybe I'll send an e-mail to ask about his numbers.
                                    >
                                    > Larry
                                    >
                                    > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Larry,
                                    > >
                                    > > Sid Meier is Director of Creative Development for Firaxis.
                                    > > Here is the info: http://www.firaxis.com/company/bios.php?
                                    bioid=56
                                    > >
                                    > > I enjoyed Sid's Antietam PC game. Admittedly it was excessively
                                    > detailed, but that made playing it a fun experience. I found a
                                    > website with the free add-on for the South Mountain battles and
                                    also
                                    > enjoyed those.
                                    > >
                                    > > For more detailed simulations, I go with Dean Essig's
                                    boardgames
                                    > (such as Shiloh, Antietam, Seven Days). Certainly they take time
                                    to
                                    > learn, but they reward me with a great historical simulation.
                                    > >
                                    > > Tom Shay
                                    > Recent Activity
                                    > a.. 1New Members
                                    > Visit Your Group
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                                    >
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                                    >
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                                    >
                                    > What's the word on
                                    >
                                    > fashion and style?
                                    >
                                    > All-Bran
                                    > Day 10 Club
                                    >
                                    > on Yahoo! Groups
                                    >
                                    > Feel better with fiber.
                                    > .
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • eighth_conn_inf
                                    Tom Shay, Sid never replied. Tom Clemens does not know if Dr. Harsh gave Sid the numbers but may have, but the ratings are a product of Sid s for his game.
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Oct 8, 2010
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                                      Tom Shay,

                                      Sid never replied. Tom Clemens does not know if Dr. Harsh gave Sid the numbers but may have, but the ratings are a product of Sid's for his game.

                                      Miers has troop quality as follows: Crack, Elite, Veteran, Trained, and Green. I don't understand the difference between "Crack" and "Elite." I can guess at the other 3. I wonder if Miers explained the differences?

                                      Larry

                                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Will do.
                                      > Larry

                                      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Larry,
                                      > >
                                      > > If you get a reply from Sid, please share it with us.
                                      > >
                                      > > Tom Shay
                                      > >
                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > From: eighth_conn_inf
                                      > > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 9:14 PM
                                      > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Regimental numbers during the
                                      > Maryland Campaign
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Thanks, Tom--maybe I'll send an e-mail to ask about his numbers.
                                      > >
                                      > > Larry
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@>
                                      > > wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Larry,
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Sid Meier is Director of Creative Development for Firaxis.
                                      > > > Here is the info: http://www.firaxis.com/company/bios.php?
                                      > bioid=56 I enjoyed Sid's Antietam PC game. Admittedly it was excessively
                                      > > detailed, but that made playing it a fun experience. I found a website with the free add-on for the South Mountain battles and also enjoyed those. For more detailed simulations, I go with Dean Essig's boardgames (such as Shiloh, Antietam, Seven Days). Certainly they take time to learn, but they reward me with a great historical simulation.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Tom Shay
                                    • G E Mayers
                                      Dear Larry, The way I understand Veteran, Trained, Green is as follows: Veteran = Trained and Engaged in at least one to two campaigns and/or battles; Trained
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Oct 8, 2010
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                                        Dear Larry,

                                        The way I understand Veteran, Trained, Green is as follows:

                                        Veteran = Trained and Engaged in at least one to two campaigns and/or battles;

                                        Trained = Unit has been through a Camp of Instruction (complete cycle) but has yet to fight a battle or engage in a campaign;

                                        Green = Barely trained (if at all!) and maybe less than 3 weeks in a Camp of Instruction.

                                        An excellent example of the "Green" category would be the hapless Sixteenth Connecticut, which was basically obliterated by the veterans of (IIRC) Maxcy Gregg's brigade of A P Hill's Light Division down on the Ninth Corps section of the field, as that Union Corps was advancing into Sharpsburg environs from the SW.

                                        Crack troops might be, for example, A P Hill's Light Division; the same division could also be Elite troops. No idea what Miers meant by the two.


                                        Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                        G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                                        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:08 AM
                                        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Regimental numbers during the Maryland Campaign


                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Tom Shay,
                                        >
                                        > Sid never replied. Tom Clemens does not know if Dr. Harsh gave Sid the numbers but may have, but the ratings are a product of Sid's for his game.
                                        >
                                        > Miers has troop quality as follows: Crack, Elite, Veteran, Trained, and Green. I don't understand the difference between "Crack" and "Elite." I can guess at the other 3. I wonder if Miers explained the differences?
                                        >
                                        > Larry
                                        >
                                        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
                                        >>
                                        >> Will do.
                                        >> Larry
                                        >
                                        >> --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@>
                                        >> wrote:
                                        >> >
                                        >> > Larry,
                                        >> >
                                        >> > If you get a reply from Sid, please share it with us.
                                        >> >
                                        >> > Tom Shay
                                        >> >
                                        >> > ----- Original Message -----
                                        >> > From: eighth_conn_inf
                                        >> > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                        >> > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 9:14 PM
                                        >> > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Regimental numbers during the
                                        >> Maryland Campaign
                                        >> >
                                        >> >
                                        >> > Thanks, Tom--maybe I'll send an e-mail to ask about his numbers.
                                        >> >
                                        >> > Larry
                                        >> >
                                        >> > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@>
                                        >> > wrote:
                                        >> > >
                                        >> > > Larry,
                                        >> > >
                                        >> > > Sid Meier is Director of Creative Development for Firaxis.
                                        >> > > Here is the info: http://www.firaxis.com/company/bios.php?
                                        >> bioid=56 I enjoyed Sid's Antietam PC game. Admittedly it was excessively
                                        >> > detailed, but that made playing it a fun experience. I found a website with the free add-on for the South Mountain battles and also enjoyed those. For more detailed simulations, I go with Dean Essig's boardgames (such as Shiloh, Antietam, Seven Days). Certainly they take time to learn, but they reward me with a great historical simulation.
                                        >> > >
                                        >> > > Tom Shay
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • Dave
                                        Larry and Gerry, Could the ratings be used for command radii? Combined with your ratings below, I mean, crack needs no leadership points or the leader has a
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Oct 8, 2010
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                                          Larry and Gerry,

                                          Could the ratings be used for command radii? Combined with your ratings
                                          below, I mean, crack needs no leadership points or the leader has a very
                                          large radii. Green troops have a very small radii, the commander needs
                                          to be very close to keep unit cohesion. Just conjecture on my part, it's
                                          been a long time since playing the game. Also, the guys at Norbsoft,
                                          makers of Gettysburg, Scourge of War, might be of help, or someone on
                                          their forum might as well. It's an interesting question.

                                          Dave McGowan


                                          On 10/8/2010 2:42 PM, eighth_conn_inf wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Thanks Gerry.
                                          >
                                          > I'd like to know if/how Sid explained the five categories for his
                                          > game, especially "crack" v. "elite."
                                          >
                                          > I think for my purposes, I would divide experience into four
                                          > categories something like this:
                                          >
                                          > 1. Elite: More than two significant battles on the firing line with
                                          > excellent results, reflecting good leadership, morale, training, etc.
                                          > (1st Virginia Cav. or Black Horse)
                                          >
                                          > 2. Veteran: At least one battle/fight with good results. (6th Penn.
                                          > Cavalry at the end of the Peninsular/Seven Days Campaigns)
                                          >
                                          > 3. Trained: No/minor combat but in service for a period of time maybe
                                          > more than 6 months with documented training. (6th U.S. Cavalry early
                                          > during the Peninsular Campaign--first major fight at Williamsburg on 4
                                          > May 1862--veteran by the end)
                                          >
                                          > 4. Green: New in service--maybe less than 3 months, no combat, no
                                          > training. (16th Conn. as you suggested)
                                          >
                                          > Obviously the combat quality of a unit could change over time such as
                                          > the 8th and 9th NY Cavalry Regiments which went from almost mutinous
                                          > gangs to good fighting regiments due in important part to leadership.
                                          >
                                          > Larry
                                          >
                                          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                          > <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                                          > wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Dear Larry,
                                          > >
                                          > > The way I understand Veteran, Trained, Green is as follows:
                                          > >
                                          > > Veteran = Trained and Engaged in at least one to two campaigns
                                          > and/or battles;
                                          > >
                                          > > Trained = Unit has been through a Camp of Instruction (complete
                                          > cycle) but has yet to fight a battle or engage in a campaign;
                                          > >
                                          > > Green = Barely trained (if at all!) and maybe less than 3 weeks in a
                                          > Camp of Instruction.
                                          > >
                                          > > An excellent example of the "Green" category would be the hapless
                                          > Sixteenth Connecticut, which was basically obliterated by the veterans
                                          > of (IIRC) Maxcy Gregg's brigade of A P Hill's Light Division down on
                                          > the Ninth Corps section of the field, as that Union Corps was
                                          > advancing into Sharpsburg environs from the SW.
                                          > >
                                          > > Crack troops might be, for example, A P Hill's Light Division; the
                                          > same division could also be Elite troops. No idea what Miers meant by
                                          > the two.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                          > > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                                          > >
                                          > > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
                                          > one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the Union, a
                                          > passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from the Almighty
                                          > God. --Anonymous
                                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > > From: "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                                          > > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                          > <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>>
                                          > > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:08 AM
                                          > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Regimental numbers during the Maryland
                                          > Campaign
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Tom Shay,
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Sid never replied. Tom Clemens does not know if Dr. Harsh gave Sid
                                          > the numbers but may have, but the ratings are a product of Sid's for
                                          > his game.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Miers has troop quality as follows: Crack, Elite, Veteran,
                                          > Trained, and Green. I don't understand the difference between "Crack"
                                          > and "Elite." I can guess at the other 3. I wonder if Miers explained
                                          > the differences?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Larry
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                          > <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>, "eighth_conn_inf"
                                          > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                                          > > >>
                                          > > >> Will do.
                                          > > >> Larry
                                          > > >
                                          > > >> --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                          > <mailto:TalkAntietam%40yahoogroups.com>, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@>
                                          > > >> wrote:
                                          > > >> >
                                          > > >> > Larry,
                                          > > >> >
                                          > > >> > If you get a reply from Sid, please share it with us.
                                          > > >> >
                                          > > >> > Tom Shay
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • RoteBaron
                                          Larry, I looked into the game s help file and found the descriptions of the levels, as follows: There are five levels of experience, each adding a different
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Oct 8, 2010
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                                            Larry,

                                            I looked into the game's help file and found the descriptions of the levels, as follows:

                                            There are five levels of experience, each adding a different number of blocks to the regiment's Morale Bar.
                                            a.. Green troops (2 blocks) have little or no combat experience.
                                            b.. Trained troops (3 blocks) have been in limited combat and have been in service for a while.
                                            c.. Veteran troops (4 blocks) have solid combat experience, some positive and negative.
                                            d.. Crack troops (5 blocks) have solid combat experience, most of it positive and successful.
                                            e.. Elite troops (6 blocks) are the best troops in your army and will stand with you to the bitter end.
                                            Tom Shay



                                            From: eighth_conn_inf
                                            Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:08 AM
                                            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Regimental numbers during the Maryland Campaign





                                            Tom Shay,

                                            Sid never replied. Tom Clemens does not know if Dr. Harsh gave Sid the numbers but may have, but the ratings are a product of Sid's for his game.

                                            Miers has troop quality as follows: Crack, Elite, Veteran, Trained, and Green. I don't understand the difference between "Crack" and "Elite." I can guess at the other 3. I wonder if Miers explained the differences?

                                            Larry

                                            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Will do.
                                            > Larry

                                            > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@>
                                            > wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Larry,
                                            > >
                                            > > If you get a reply from Sid, please share it with us.
                                            > >
                                            > > Tom Shay
                                            > >
                                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > > From: eighth_conn_inf
                                            > > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 9:14 PM
                                            > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Regimental numbers during the
                                            > Maryland Campaign
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Thanks, Tom--maybe I'll send an e-mail to ask about his numbers.
                                            > >
                                            > > Larry
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@>
                                            > > wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Larry,
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Sid Meier is Director of Creative Development for Firaxis.
                                            > > > Here is the info: http://www.firaxis.com/company/bios.php?
                                            > bioid=56 I enjoyed Sid's Antietam PC game. Admittedly it was excessively
                                            > > detailed, but that made playing it a fun experience. I found a website with the free add-on for the South Mountain battles and also enjoyed those. For more detailed simulations, I go with Dean Essig's boardgames (such as Shiloh, Antietam, Seven Days). Certainly they take time to learn, but they reward me with a great historical simulation.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Tom Shay





                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • eighth_conn_inf
                                            Tom, Thank you very much for this info which was what I needed to help judge cavalry units during the Maryland Campaign. For me, there is no substantive
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Oct 9, 2010
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                                              Tom,

                                              Thank you very much for this info which was what I needed to help judge cavalry units during the Maryland Campaign. For me, there is no substantive difference between crack and elite.

                                              Dave's idea about command radaii is also a factor. But from what I've read, often green regiments have green leaders but it is true regardless that green/untested units need close supervision as would even trained units. Elite units IMO still need good commanders but know what to do often without detailed oversight.

                                              Larry

                                              Could the ratings be used for command radii? Combined with your ratings
                                              below, I mean, crack needs no leadership points or the leader has a very
                                              large radii. Green troops have a very small radii, the commander needs
                                              to be very close to keep unit cohesion. Just conjecture on my part, it's
                                              been a long time since playing the game. Also, the guys at Norbsoft,
                                              makers of Gettysburg, Scourge of War, might be of help, or someone on
                                              their forum might as well. It's an interesting question.



                                              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Larry,
                                              >
                                              > I looked into the game's help file and found the descriptions of the levels, as follows:
                                              >
                                              > There are five levels of experience, each adding a different number of blocks to the regiment's Morale Bar.
                                              > a.. Green troops (2 blocks) have little or no combat experience.
                                              > b.. Trained troops (3 blocks) have been in limited combat and have been in service for a while.
                                              > c.. Veteran troops (4 blocks) have solid combat experience, some positive and negative.
                                              > d.. Crack troops (5 blocks) have solid combat experience, most of it positive and successful.
                                              > e.. Elite troops (6 blocks) are the best troops in your army and will stand with you to the bitter end.
                                              > Tom Shay
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > From: eighth_conn_inf
                                              > Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:08 AM
                                              > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Regimental numbers during the Maryland Campaign
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Tom Shay,
                                              >
                                              > Sid never replied. Tom Clemens does not know if Dr. Harsh gave Sid the numbers but may have, but the ratings are a product of Sid's for his game.
                                              >
                                              > Miers has troop quality as follows: Crack, Elite, Veteran, Trained, and Green. I don't understand the difference between "Crack" and "Elite." I can guess at the other 3. I wonder if Miers explained the differences?
                                              >
                                              > Larry
                                              >
                                              > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Will do.
                                              > > Larry
                                              >
                                              > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@>
                                              > > wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Larry,
                                              > > >
                                              > > > If you get a reply from Sid, please share it with us.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Tom Shay
                                              > > >
                                              > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                              > > > From: eighth_conn_inf
                                              > > > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 9:14 PM
                                              > > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Regimental numbers during the
                                              > > Maryland Campaign
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Thanks, Tom--maybe I'll send an e-mail to ask about his numbers.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Larry
                                              > > >
                                              > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@>
                                              > > > wrote:
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Larry,
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Sid Meier is Director of Creative Development for Firaxis.
                                              > > > > Here is the info: http://www.firaxis.com/company/bios.php?
                                              > > bioid=56 I enjoyed Sid's Antietam PC game. Admittedly it was excessively
                                              > > > detailed, but that made playing it a fun experience. I found a website with the free add-on for the South Mountain battles and also enjoyed those. For more detailed simulations, I go with Dean Essig's boardgames (such as Shiloh, Antietam, Seven Days). Certainly they take time to learn, but they reward me with a great historical simulation.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Tom Shay
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
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