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Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mt. purchase

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  • Curt Johnson
    David, Without further details, I would hazard a guess that it is the ground occupied by Cook s 8th Mass. Bty., Durell s (E, Pa. Lt.) and/or Clark s (E, 4th
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 25, 2001
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      David,
       
      Without further details, I would hazard a guess that it is the ground occupied by Cook's 8th Mass. Bty., Durell's (E, Pa. Lt.) and/or Clark's (E, 4th US), all of which were in action at Fox's Gap within 300 meters of the Reno Monument.  Details of the combat may be found in Priest's _Before Antietam_.
       
      Curt Johnson
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Monday, December 24, 2001 6:05 PM
      Subject: [TalkAntietam] South Mt. purchase

      I talked to Ron the member who was telling me about the land purchase and he said that 5.5 acres were bought on Reno Road below the site of Fox's Gap battle.  He said the land was occupied by Mac's artillery units in 1862. 
      The land was bought by the Central Maryland Heritage League.  Does this ring a bell with anyone as to its physical location?
       
      David Lutton





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    • Bill or Glenna Jo Christen
      As editor of The Watchdog, I just mailed one of our annual preservation donations to the CMHL on behalf of our staff and subscribers. The latest CMHL
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 26, 2001
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        As editor of The Watchdog, I just mailed one of our annual preservation
        donations to the CMHL on behalf of our staff and subscribers. The latest
        CMHL newsletter indicates...

        "We have recently acquired 5.5 acres of land on reno Road just below
        the site of the Fox's gap battle.
        The land was occupied by McClennan's artillery units and was in
        danger of being sold to developers.
        Thanks to the efforts of the maryland Environmental trust and the Civil
        war preservation trust, we have secured easements on the land, and in
        the process, reduced our property taxes significantly"

        I will try to contact my friend George Brigham from the CMHL to get
        specifics.

        Bill Christen
        --
        gwjchris@...
        Visit our web site, "The Curiosity Shop"
        http://www.rust.net/~gwjchris/
      • NJ Rebel
        Bill; Would you also put George Brigham in touch with me as respects information on South Mountain for my book manuscript? Thank you in advance. Your humble
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 26, 2001
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          Bill;

          Would you also put George Brigham in touch with me as respects
          information on South Mountain for my book manuscript?

          Thank you in advance.

          Your humble servant,
          Gerry Mayers
          Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
          Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry

          A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

          "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
          on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
          Edward Lee


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Bill or Glenna Jo Christen" <gwjchris@...>
          To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 11:50 AM
          Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] South Mt. purchase


          >
          > As editor of The Watchdog, I just mailed one of our annual
          preservation
          > donations to the CMHL on behalf of our staff and subscribers.
          The latest
          > CMHL newsletter indicates...
          >
          > "We have recently acquired 5.5 acres of land on reno Road
          just below
          > the site of the Fox's gap battle.
          > The land was occupied by McClennan's artillery units and
          was in
          > danger of being sold to developers.
          > Thanks to the efforts of the maryland Environmental trust and
          the Civil
          > war preservation trust, we have secured easements on the land,
          and in
          > the process, reduced our property taxes significantly"
          >
          > I will try to contact my friend George Brigham from the CMHL to
          get
          > specifics.
          >
          > Bill Christen
          > --
          > gwjchris@...
          > Visit our web site, "The Curiosity Shop"
          > http://www.rust.net/~gwjchris/
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          > ADVERTISEMENT
          >
          >
          >
          >
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          Service.
          >
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        • Rawlings, Kevin
          Bill, Sadly I must inform you that George Brigham and CHML are no longer synonomous due to politics and personal attacks of a very vicious nature. My own
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 27, 2001
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            Bill,

            Sadly I must inform you that George Brigham and CHML are no longer
            synonomous due to politics and personal attacks of a very vicious nature. My
            own membership in this group will be at an end at the beginning of the New
            Year. The group despite its public face wish to not put much emphasis on
            Civil War and become more involved in the social and political scene of
            Middletown, Maryland. I have been really upset and disgusted at the way the
            original focus and mission statement of this once valuable and important
            group has lost its focus and been passed by as a cutting edge preservation
            group. Bill, call George for a more detailed description on the travesty
            that has transpired within the ranks of CMHL than I feel at liberty to tell
            here and now. And the the purchase of what is known as the Mahaffey property
            happened more than a year or two ago. It didn't happen recently. CMHL just
            hasn't had a newsletter out in more than two years due to problems in the
            group. Don't even ask me about the severe lack of fundraising because of the
            idiocy of the current executive director and his political and social
            agenda. At the risk of sounding full of vitriol against CMHL, I would send
            contributions to SHAF and other worthy battlefield preservation
            organizations until CMHL gets themselves back on track or disbands. CMHL is
            Not Worthy of your time and contributions at this time. Sadly, I must
            confess to being one of the founding members of this organization.

            Enuff said,
            Kevin

            -----Original Message-----






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          • NJ Rebel
            Kevin; I am at a loss to understand why such a respected group could lose its identity and mission. But, I suppose that is one of the dangers of bringing in an
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 27, 2001
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              Kevin;

              I am at a loss to understand why such a respected group could
              lose its identity and mission. But, I suppose that is one of the
              dangers of bringing in an executive director from outside. That
              happened in a Catholic organization in which I once worked.

              So with the CMHL problems, will that mean an expanded effort by
              SHAF to save important sites related to the Antietam campaign but
              not directly part of the Battle of Antietam?

              As a SHAF member I would be happy to support preservation efforts
              related to South Mountain.

              Your humble servant,
              Gerry Mayers
              Co. B, "Tom Green Rifles",
              Fourth Regiment, Texas Volunteer Infantry

              A Proud American by Birth, Southern by Choice!

              http://home.earthlink.net/~gerry1952/index.html

              "I know of no fitter resting-place for a soldier than the field
              on which he has nobly laid down his life." --General Robert
              Edward Lee


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Rawlings, Kevin" <kevin.rawlings@...>
              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 1:43 PM
              Subject: RE: [TalkAntietam] South Mt. purchase


              > Bill,
              >
              > Sadly I must inform you that George Brigham and CHML are no
              longer
              > synonomous due to politics and personal attacks of a very
              vicious nature. My
              > own membership in this group will be at an end at the beginning
              of the New
              > Year. The group despite its public face wish to not put much
              emphasis on
              > Civil War and become more involved in the social and political
              scene of
              > Middletown, Maryland. I have been really upset and disgusted at
              the way the
              > original focus and mission statement of this once valuable and
              important
              > group has lost its focus and been passed by as a cutting edge
              preservation
              > group. Bill, call George for a more detailed description on the
              travesty
              > that has transpired within the ranks of CMHL than I feel at
              liberty to tell
              > here and now. And the the purchase of what is known as the
              Mahaffey property
              > happened more than a year or two ago. It didn't happen
              recently. CMHL just
              > hasn't had a newsletter out in more than two years due to
              problems in the
              > group. Don't even ask me about the severe lack of fundraising
              because of the
              > idiocy of the current executive director and his political and
              social
              > agenda. At the risk of sounding full of vitriol against CMHL, I
              would send
              > contributions to SHAF and other worthy battlefield preservation
              > organizations until CMHL gets themselves back on track or
              disbands. CMHL is
              > Not Worthy of your time and contributions at this time. Sadly,
              I must
              > confess to being one of the founding members of this
              organization.
              >
              > Enuff said,
              > Kevin
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
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              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
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              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              Service.
              >
              >
            • Bill or Glenna Jo Christen
              ... Kevin, I am disappointed to here of this. I did send a reduced check ($100) CHML and, fortunately, a bigger check ($400) to SHAF on behalf of the Watchdog
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 27, 2001
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                "Rawlings, Kevin" wrote:

                > Bill,
                >
                > Sadly I must inform you that George Brigham and CHML are no longer...
                > synonomous due to politics and personal attacks of a very vicious nature.I
                > would send
                > contributions to SHAF and other worthy battlefield preservation organizations
                > until CMHL gets themselves back on track

                Kevin,

                I am disappointed to here of this. I did send a reduced check ($100) CHML and,
                fortunately, a bigger check ($400) to SHAF on behalf of the Watchdog just last
                week. The DOG also supported the Mill Springs, KY and Franklin, TN battlefields
                this year.

                I'll give George a call.

                Bill
              • ringgold61
                ... ground occupied by Cook s 8th Mass. Bty., Durell s (E, Pa. Lt.) and/or Clark s (E, 4th US), all of which were in action at Fox s Gap within 300 meters of
                Message 7 of 15 , Jan 3, 2002
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                  --- In TalkAntietam@y..., "Curt Johnson" <ccj@w...> wrote:
                  > David,
                  >
                  > Without further details, I would hazard a guess that it is the
                  ground occupied by Cook's 8th Mass. Bty., Durell's (E, Pa. Lt.)
                  and/or Clark's (E, 4th US), all of which were in action at Fox's Gap
                  within 300 meters of the Reno Monument. Details of the combat may be
                  found in Priest's _Before Antietam_.
                  >
                  > Curt Johnson


                  Curt,

                  I'm sure you are aware that Captain Durell's Battery was Independent
                  Battery "D", not "E". Knap's Battery was Independent Battery "E."
                  It should be noted that at the time of the Battle, Durell's Battery
                  was officially designated as the 2nd Independent Pennsylvania
                  Battery. They were also unofficially referred to as the Ringgold
                  Battery! The "D" designation was not given to the Battery until
                  1863. I suppose it's just easier for historians to use the
                  designation that they ended their service with.

                  The land where these batteries went into action is about 1/2 mile
                  down the hill from the Reno Monument towards the former spot of the
                  Reno Oak, and on the right side of the road. You can also see it if
                  you walk out onto the field across the road from the monument about
                  half way to the wood line and look downhill. You can see an open
                  area off to the right with a few houses between it and the road. If
                  this is the land that was purchased, it is very good news! I was
                  just discussing this parcel with Ranger Al Preston of the Maryland
                  Parks Dept. (the folks who run the new South Mountain Battlefield
                  State Park) a few months ago and he never mentioned that it had been
                  saved. We both held the opinion that it should be a priority site
                  for preservation. Then again, we're both rather partial to the
                  artillery. ;-)

                  Mark A. Pflum
                  (researcher of Durell's Battery, P.V.)
                • Curt Johnson
                  Hi, Mark, Thanks for your comments. I have to tell you, when I sent my initial answer to whoever it was that asked the question (never got a response), I
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jan 4, 2002
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                    Hi, Mark,

                    Thanks for your comments. I have to tell you, when I sent my initial answer
                    to whoever it was that asked the question (never got a response), I checked
                    Mike Priest's book for details: therefore, the designation E, Pa. Lt. I
                    guess I should've checked my own book (duh!), which gives Independent Bty.
                    D. I can confirm your statement that, at the time of the battle, Durell's
                    was designated the 2d Indpt. Pa. Bty., having checked my copies of Hunt's
                    and Barry's reports and memoranda. I must have adopted the slightly later
                    designation for my book, maybe from Cuffel, so thanks for pointing that out.

                    If I understand your comments about the location where these folks went into
                    battery, you are talking about the yards and fields in the vicinity of the
                    site of the Reno Oak. While I don't disagree with that site, there was also
                    a site further up the hill and closer to the Reno Monument, where there is a
                    shelf on the north side of the road (east of Wise's North Field) that was
                    occupied by Federal artillery. It was there that (I think) Cook's Bty. was
                    wrecked. All this is off the top of my head.

                    Best wishes,
                    Curt


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "ringgold61" <ringgold_redleg@...>
                    To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 2:24 AM
                    Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: South Mt. purchase


                    > --- In TalkAntietam@y..., "Curt Johnson" <ccj@w...> wrote:
                    > > David,
                    > >
                    > > Without further details, I would hazard a guess that it is the
                    > ground occupied by Cook's 8th Mass. Bty., Durell's (E, Pa. Lt.)
                    > and/or Clark's (E, 4th US), all of which were in action at Fox's Gap
                    > within 300 meters of the Reno Monument. Details of the combat may be
                    > found in Priest's _Before Antietam_.
                    > >
                    > > Curt Johnson
                    >
                    >
                    > Curt,
                    >
                    > I'm sure you are aware that Captain Durell's Battery was Independent
                    > Battery "D", not "E". Knap's Battery was Independent Battery "E."
                    > It should be noted that at the time of the Battle, Durell's Battery
                    > was officially designated as the 2nd Independent Pennsylvania
                    > Battery. They were also unofficially referred to as the Ringgold
                    > Battery! The "D" designation was not given to the Battery until
                    > 1863. I suppose it's just easier for historians to use the
                    > designation that they ended their service with.
                    >
                    > The land where these batteries went into action is about 1/2 mile
                    > down the hill from the Reno Monument towards the former spot of the
                    > Reno Oak, and on the right side of the road. You can also see it if
                    > you walk out onto the field across the road from the monument about
                    > half way to the wood line and look downhill. You can see an open
                    > area off to the right with a few houses between it and the road. If
                    > this is the land that was purchased, it is very good news! I was
                    > just discussing this parcel with Ranger Al Preston of the Maryland
                    > Parks Dept. (the folks who run the new South Mountain Battlefield
                    > State Park) a few months ago and he never mentioned that it had been
                    > saved. We both held the opinion that it should be a priority site
                    > for preservation. Then again, we're both rather partial to the
                    > artillery. ;-)
                    >
                    > Mark A. Pflum
                    > (researcher of Durell's Battery, P.V.)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                  • ringgold61
                    ... Hi, Mark, ... went into battery, you are talking about the yards and fields in the vicinity of the site of the Reno Oak. While I don t disagree
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jan 5, 2002
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                      --- In TalkAntietam@y..., "Curt Johnson" <ccj@w...> wrote:
                      Hi, Mark,
                      <<SNIP>>
                      > If I understand your comments about the location where these folks
                      went into battery, you are talking about the yards and fields in the
                      vicinity of the site of the Reno Oak. While I don't disagree with
                      that site, there was also a site further up the hill and closer to
                      the Reno Monument, where there is a shelf on the north side of the
                      road (east of Wise's North Field) that was occupied by Federal
                      artillery. It was there that (I think) Cook's Bty. was wrecked. All
                      this is off the top of my head.
                      >
                      > Best wishes,
                      > Curt

                      ~~~ Your spot is the one I was referring to. It's only about half-
                      way down the hill (on the right side, looking downhill) between the
                      monument and the former Oak site. I wish I could remember the name
                      on the mailboxes . . .

                      How badly were Cook's boys treated? From Durell's unit history, I
                      thought they had simply been driven from their guns by a scalding
                      fire from close Confederate infantry. The Massachusetts men were
                      able to retire their guns from the field while the Pennsylvanians
                      were serving their pieces. The guns of the two batteries were in
                      front along the same line if I recall correctly. Cook's Battery was
                      in action three days later with their old guns, so they couldn't have
                      been too roughly handled. I've often wondered what their loss in men
                      was on that mountain.

                      Mark A. Pflum
                    • David Lutton
                      Reading the recent posts concerning the South Mountain purchase has raised a question for me concerning the site of Reno s Oak. My impression was that if one
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jan 6, 2002
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                        Reading the recent posts concerning the South Mountain purchase has raised a
                        question for me concerning the site of Reno's Oak.
                        My impression was that if one was coming down the hill from Reno's Monument
                        the site of the oak tree was on the left at the intersection with Fox's Gap
                        Road? Is this correct??

                        By the way I was the one who originally asked the question about the
                        purchase area and if I did not thank everyone for their input I apoligize.

                        David Lutton
                        Hollidaysburg Pa
                        From: ringgold61 <ringgold_redleg@...>
                        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 2:48 AM
                        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: South Mt. purchase


                        > --- In TalkAntietam@y..., "Curt Johnson" <ccj@w...> wrote:
                        > Hi, Mark,
                        > <<SNIP>>
                        > > If I understand your comments about the location where these folks
                        > went into battery, you are talking about the yards and fields in the
                        > vicinity of the site of the Reno Oak. While I don't disagree with
                        > that site, there was also a site further up the hill and closer to
                        > the Reno Monument, where there is a shelf on the north side of the
                        > road (east of Wise's North Field) that was occupied by Federal
                        > artillery. It was there that (I think) Cook's Bty. was wrecked. All
                        > this is off the top of my head.
                        > >
                        > > Best wishes,
                        > > Curt
                        >
                        > ~~~ Your spot is the one I was referring to. It's only about half-
                        > way down the hill (on the right side, looking downhill) between the
                        > monument and the former Oak site. I wish I could remember the name
                        > on the mailboxes . . .
                        >
                        > How badly were Cook's boys treated? From Durell's unit history, I
                        > thought they had simply been driven from their guns by a scalding
                        > fire from close Confederate infantry. The Massachusetts men were
                        > able to retire their guns from the field while the Pennsylvanians
                        > were serving their pieces. The guns of the two batteries were in
                        > front along the same line if I recall correctly. Cook's Battery was
                        > in action three days later with their old guns, so they couldn't have
                        > been too roughly handled. I've often wondered what their loss in men
                        > was on that mountain.
                        >
                        > Mark A. Pflum
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                      • Tom Clemens
                        Yes, that is correct. A new house has just been constructed at the intersection and the driveway is almost exactly where the oak stood.
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jan 6, 2002
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                          Yes, that is correct. A new house has just been constructed at the intersection
                          and the driveway is almost exactly where the oak stood.


                          David Lutton wrote:

                          > Reading the recent posts concerning the South Mountain purchase has raised a
                          > question for me concerning the site of Reno's Oak.
                          > My impression was that if one was coming down the hill from Reno's Monument
                          > the site of the oak tree was on the left at the intersection with Fox's Gap
                          > Road? Is this correct??
                          >
                          > By the way I was the one who originally asked the question about the
                          > purchase area and if I did not thank everyone for their input I apoligize.
                          >
                          > David Lutton
                          > Hollidaysburg Pa
                          > From: ringgold61 <ringgold_redleg@...>
                          > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 2:48 AM
                          > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: South Mt. purchase
                          >
                          > > --- In TalkAntietam@y..., "Curt Johnson" <ccj@w...> wrote:
                          > > Hi, Mark,
                          > > <<SNIP>>
                          > > > If I understand your comments about the location where these folks
                          > > went into battery, you are talking about the yards and fields in the
                          > > vicinity of the site of the Reno Oak. While I don't disagree with
                          > > that site, there was also a site further up the hill and closer to
                          > > the Reno Monument, where there is a shelf on the north side of the
                          > > road (east of Wise's North Field) that was occupied by Federal
                          > > artillery. It was there that (I think) Cook's Bty. was wrecked. All
                          > > this is off the top of my head.
                          > > >
                          > > > Best wishes,
                          > > > Curt
                          > >
                          > > ~~~ Your spot is the one I was referring to. It's only about half-
                          > > way down the hill (on the right side, looking downhill) between the
                          > > monument and the former Oak site. I wish I could remember the name
                          > > on the mailboxes . . .
                          > >
                          > > How badly were Cook's boys treated? From Durell's unit history, I
                          > > thought they had simply been driven from their guns by a scalding
                          > > fire from close Confederate infantry. The Massachusetts men were
                          > > able to retire their guns from the field while the Pennsylvanians
                          > > were serving their pieces. The guns of the two batteries were in
                          > > front along the same line if I recall correctly. Cook's Battery was
                          > > in action three days later with their old guns, so they couldn't have
                          > > been too roughly handled. I've often wondered what their loss in men
                          > > was on that mountain.
                          > >
                          > > Mark A. Pflum
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        • ringgold61
                          ... intersection and the driveway is almost exactly where the oak stood. I ve never been one to wish ill will upon anyone, but I sure hope Jesse haunts that
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jan 6, 2002
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                            --- In TalkAntietam@y..., Tom Clemens <clemens@c...> wrote:
                            > Yes, that is correct. A new house has just been constructed at the
                            intersection and the driveway is almost exactly where the oak stood.


                            I've never been one to wish ill will upon anyone, but I sure hope
                            Jesse haunts that new house something FIERCE! At least a few
                            unexplained, late night cannon shots should be in order.

                            Mark A. Pflum
                          • Ray Ortensie
                            My feelings exactly. I also feel that way about farm land being taken over for new subdivisions. I hope stampedes of cattle run through the halls (or at
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jan 7, 2002
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                              My feelings exactly. I also feel that way about farm land being taken over
                              for new subdivisions. I hope stampedes of cattle run through the halls (or
                              at least leave a few pies!).

                              Ray
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "ringgold61" <ringgold_redleg@...>
                              To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 1:14 AM
                              Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: South Mt. purchase


                              > --- In TalkAntietam@y..., Tom Clemens <clemens@c...> wrote:
                              > > Yes, that is correct. A new house has just been constructed at the
                              > intersection and the driveway is almost exactly where the oak stood.
                              >
                              >
                              > I've never been one to wish ill will upon anyone, but I sure hope
                              > Jesse haunts that new house something FIERCE! At least a few
                              > unexplained, late night cannon shots should be in order.
                              >
                              > Mark A. Pflum
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                            • Tom Clemens
                              Mark, I know what you mean, but it is a good and bad situation. Good, they sold the easements on their large farm in the middle ofthe battlefield, bad, they
                              Message 14 of 15 , Jan 7, 2002
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                                Mark,
                                I know what you mean, but it is a good and bad situation. Good, they sold
                                the easements on their large farm in the middle ofthe battlefield, bad, they
                                reserved the right to build one house whereve they wanted, guess where. Not
                                the best situation, but not the worst either.
                                Tom

                                ringgold61 wrote:

                                > --- In TalkAntietam@y..., Tom Clemens <clemens@c...> wrote:
                                > > Yes, that is correct. A new house has just been constructed at the
                                > intersection and the driveway is almost exactly where the oak stood.
                                >
                                > I've never been one to wish ill will upon anyone, but I sure hope
                                > Jesse haunts that new house something FIERCE! At least a few
                                > unexplained, late night cannon shots should be in order.
                                >
                                > Mark A. Pflum
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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