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Re: [TalkAntietam] 17th Michigan numbers

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  • Dean Essig
    Hi Bill! You ve certainly been looking at this harder than about any human alive, so that bares a certain amount of weight. FWIW, I found my notes of the exact
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 3, 2008
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      Hi Bill!

      You've certainly been looking at this harder than
      about any human alive, so that bares a certain amount
      of weight.

      FWIW, I found my notes of the exact figure in the
      park's file... and that is 525. All of their numbers
      are meant to reflect men in the line on the morning of
      the 17th (w/o knowing for sure all the details of
      "effectives", "armed and equipped", but do count
      officers and men). I do not know the sourcing of those
      values but gave them great weight because of the
      agency that produced and provided them.

      The 150 man difference between their figure and yours
      is a relatively big deal to me for my purposes, so I'm
      really looking forward to your revised values.

      Dean

      --- Bill and Glenna Jo Christen
      <gwjchris@...> wrote:

      > Dean,
      >
      > I wrote the text for the Fox's Gap marker in 1986.
      > Since then I have done much more research. In fact
      > when I am done, I will have recreated the monthly
      > returns for the regiment based on surviving
      > originals and an estimated daily "roll call" (a
      > database that I am compiling) for the entire life of
      > the regiment. I am just working through September
      > 1862--there is a long way to go. This is important
      > particularly since I helped with several other
      > markers (Campbells Station, TN and Spotsylvania, VA)
      > that listed the size of the regiment.
      >
      > Let's try this exercise in "estimating" as I tell
      > the fourth and fifth graders for whom I substitute
      > teach:
      >
      > The regiment left Detroit on 27 August 1862 with 982
      > men [82 officers, 900 enlisted]. This is a "hard"
      > number, but from here on they get "softer." For the
      > next two weeks the number of men on the muster rolls
      > as sick, detached or deserted increased.
      > Approximately 150 men were left in Washington
      > because they were sick, or 980-150 = 830. Subtract
      > another 10 for known deserters in early September,
      > or 830-10 = 820. About ten officers and men were
      > detached as supernumeraries or clerks at brigade and
      > division headquarters, or 820-10 = 810.
      >
      > Company A [approximately 80 men, 3 officers, about
      > 77 men] was left in Frederick, Maryland as part of
      > the Provost Guard on 13 September 1862, or 810-80 =
      > 730.
      >
      > Subtract another 10 for stragglers on the march
      > during 14 September, or 730-10 = 720
      >
      > So on the afternoon of 14 September the regiment's
      > size (officer's and men) was about 720 [700-750 is a
      > good range]. The casualties at South Mountain were
      > 132 killed and wounded. Assuming that most of the
      > wounded did not return to the ranks until after the
      > 17th, subtract at least 125, or 720-125 = 595. Add
      > Company A back in because it had returned to the
      > regiment, or 590 + 80 = 675.
      >
      > Therefore size of the regiment on 17 September
      > before the fighting was approximately 675 [650-690].
      > The casualties at Antietam were around 100 killed
      > and wounded, or 675-100 = 575 in the ranks on the
      > morning of 18 September 1862.
      >
      > The Adjutant of the regiment, Captain William V.
      > Richards, wrote a letter to the _Detroit Advertiser
      > and Tribune_ in the middle of October 1862. He
      > stated that the size of the regiment was 562 in the
      > field with 287 absent, sick and wounded (or 849
      > total). A number of the wounded from both battles
      > had died as well during the prior thirty days and
      > some of the wounded had recovered enough to return
      > to the ranks. This number is close to my little math
      > exercise's number. Perhaps I need to put an errata
      > marker next to the big marker at Fox's Gap. I will
      > have even better figures later this summer.
      >
      > I do not remember what the NPS used as a source--it
      > has been well over twenty years since I went went
      > through the material at theVC library--perhaps
      > Carmen. I am sure that I had the NPS information
      > when the marker description was written. That is why
      > I was waiting for Tom Clemen's research to be
      > published, and now waiting for Jake's book. Perhaps
      > the NPS numbers better reflect the size of the
      > regiment after the 17th of September. In any rate,
      > nothing is "set in stone" or "cast in bronze" yet
      > again.
      >
      > Bill
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been
      > removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >



      ____________________________________________________________________________________
      Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
      http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
    • eighth_conn_inf
      Dean/Bill, Carman (Jake) shows this on page 457: The 17th Michigan went into the fight with about 525 officers and men. The cite is Frederick W. Swift
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 3, 2008
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        Dean/Bill,

        Carman (Jake) shows this on page 457: "The 17th Michigan went into
        the fight with about 525 officers and men." The cite is "Frederick W.
        Swift" according to Carman's explantory notes.

        Larry F.


        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Dean Essig <dean_essig@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Hi Bill!
        >
        > You've certainly been looking at this harder than
        > about any human alive, so that bares a certain amount
        > of weight.
        >
        > FWIW, I found my notes of the exact figure in the
        > park's file... and that is 525. All of their numbers
        > are meant to reflect men in the line on the morning of
        > the 17th (w/o knowing for sure all the details of
        > "effectives", "armed and equipped", but do count
        > officers and men). I do not know the sourcing of those
        > values but gave them great weight because of the
        > agency that produced and provided them.
        >
        > The 150 man difference between their figure and yours
        > is a relatively big deal to me for my purposes, so I'm
        > really looking forward to your revised values.
        >
        > Dean
        >
        > --- Bill and Glenna Jo Christen
        > <gwjchris@...> wrote:
        >
        > > Dean,
        > >
        > > I wrote the text for the Fox's Gap marker in 1986.
        > > Since then I have done much more research. In fact
        > > when I am done, I will have recreated the monthly
        > > returns for the regiment based on surviving
        > > originals and an estimated daily "roll call" (a
        > > database that I am compiling) for the entire life of
        > > the regiment. I am just working through September
        > > 1862--there is a long way to go. This is important
        > > particularly since I helped with several other
        > > markers (Campbells Station, TN and Spotsylvania, VA)
        > > that listed the size of the regiment.
        > >
        > > Let's try this exercise in "estimating" as I tell
        > > the fourth and fifth graders for whom I substitute
        > > teach:
        > >
        > > The regiment left Detroit on 27 August 1862 with 982
        > > men [82 officers, 900 enlisted]. This is a "hard"
        > > number, but from here on they get "softer." For the
        > > next two weeks the number of men on the muster rolls
        > > as sick, detached or deserted increased.
        > > Approximately 150 men were left in Washington
        > > because they were sick, or 980-150 = 830. Subtract
        > > another 10 for known deserters in early September,
        > > or 830-10 = 820. About ten officers and men were
        > > detached as supernumeraries or clerks at brigade and
        > > division headquarters, or 820-10 = 810.
        > >
        > > Company A [approximately 80 men, 3 officers, about
        > > 77 men] was left in Frederick, Maryland as part of
        > > the Provost Guard on 13 September 1862, or 810-80 =
        > > 730.
        > >
        > > Subtract another 10 for stragglers on the march
        > > during 14 September, or 730-10 = 720
        > >
        > > So on the afternoon of 14 September the regiment's
        > > size (officer's and men) was about 720 [700-750 is a
        > > good range]. The casualties at South Mountain were
        > > 132 killed and wounded. Assuming that most of the
        > > wounded did not return to the ranks until after the
        > > 17th, subtract at least 125, or 720-125 = 595. Add
        > > Company A back in because it had returned to the
        > > regiment, or 590 + 80 = 675.
        > >
        > > Therefore size of the regiment on 17 September
        > > before the fighting was approximately 675 [650-690].
        > > The casualties at Antietam were around 100 killed
        > > and wounded, or 675-100 = 575 in the ranks on the
        > > morning of 18 September 1862.
        > >
        > > The Adjutant of the regiment, Captain William V.
        > > Richards, wrote a letter to the _Detroit Advertiser
        > > and Tribune_ in the middle of October 1862. He
        > > stated that the size of the regiment was 562 in the
        > > field with 287 absent, sick and wounded (or 849
        > > total). A number of the wounded from both battles
        > > had died as well during the prior thirty days and
        > > some of the wounded had recovered enough to return
        > > to the ranks. This number is close to my little math
        > > exercise's number. Perhaps I need to put an errata
        > > marker next to the big marker at Fox's Gap. I will
        > > have even better figures later this summer.
        > >
        > > I do not remember what the NPS used as a source--it
        > > has been well over twenty years since I went went
        > > through the material at theVC library--perhaps
        > > Carmen. I am sure that I had the NPS information
        > > when the marker description was written. That is why
        > > I was waiting for Tom Clemen's research to be
        > > published, and now waiting for Jake's book. Perhaps
        > > the NPS numbers better reflect the size of the
        > > regiment after the 17th of September. In any rate,
        > > nothing is "set in stone" or "cast in bronze" yet
        > > again.
        > >
        > > Bill
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
        > > removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        ______________________________________________________________________
        ______________
        > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
        > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
        >
      • Bill and Glenna Jo Christen
        Jake and Dean, Swift was there and I was not, but I would like to check further as to when and from where Carman got the Swift information. I have some Swift
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 4, 2008
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          Jake and Dean,
          Swift was there and I was not, but I would like to check further as to when and from where Carman got the Swift information.
          I have some Swift material in my files, but not from the fall of 1862.
          If I was to guess about the difference, I would want to confirm that all of Company A returned from Frederick by 17 September, the number of soldiers left behind in Washington and the impact of the fighting on the 14th (perhaps some men were still at Fox's Gap burying the dead or doing provost duty). If Swift was relying on memory too many years after the fact, that may also be a factor.
          Bill
          (PS Gerry, snip those posts)

          TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • G E Mayers
          Bill, I usually try to snip. But thanks for the reminder! Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 4, 2008
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            Bill,

            I usually try to snip. But thanks for the reminder!

            Yr. Obt. Svt.
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Bill and Glenna Jo Christen" <gwjchris@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 7:53 PM
            Subject: [TalkAntietam] RE: 17th Michigan numbers


            > Jake and Dean,
            > Swift was there and I was not, but I would like to check
            > further as to when and from where Carman got the Swift
            > information.
            > I have some Swift material in my files, but not from the fall
            > of 1862.
            > If I was to guess about the difference, I would want to
            > confirm that all of Company A returned from Frederick by 17
            > September, the number of soldiers left behind in Washington and
            > the impact of the fighting on the 14th (perhaps some men were
            > still at Fox's Gap burying the dead or doing provost duty). If
            > Swift was relying on memory too many years after the fact, that
            > may also be a factor.
            > Bill
            > (PS Gerry, snip those posts)
            >
            > TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
          • Joseph Pierro
            Bill, The sentence in the Carman mss. reads: The 17th Michigan went into the fight with about 525 officers and men. In 95% of cases, I was able to flesh out
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 4, 2008
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              Bill,

              The sentence in the Carman mss. reads: "The 17th Michigan went into the fight with about 525 officers and men."

              In 95% of cases, I was able to flesh out Carman's often cryptic citations into something definitive. In this particular instance, I wasn't. Although he footnoted the figure in his mss., his citation simply reads "Frederick W. Swift" as the source.

              I dug through all of Carman's papers at the Lib of Congress, the Nat'l Archives, and the NY Public Library. I wasn't able to uncover any relevant correspondence in any of these, nor did I uncover a published source in which Swift gives that figure. (That doesn't necessarily mean that such a document did NOT exist in one of those collections at one time. I discovered in my research that a number of letters which people like Stephen Sears used 20 years ago have since disappeared from those collections. Perhaps Sandy Berger is a Civil War buff. . .).

              If someone wrote Carman a letter, he usually cited it as "letter of [DATE]." This is perhaps the only time in the mss where his simply gave someone's name as the source with no other information, suggesting to me that it most likely was the result of an informal conversation or an oral interview.

              That would suggest strongly that the informatiomn was given to Carman after his joining the Antietam Battlefield Board in Oct. 1894, but whether Swift was relying entirely on memory or if he had retained some documentation to support that figure is unknown.

              --jake

              P.S. My apologies in advance if I disappear for the next few days. My wife gave birth to our first child (a daughter) at around 9:30 Monday evening. Between that and Super Tuesday (which, I just realized, is already here, as I'm writing this at about 1:00 ayem), it's a busy week. :)



              --
              > Jake and Dean,
              > Swift was there and I was not, but I would like to check
              > further as to when and from where Carman got the Swift
              > information.
              > I have some Swift material in my files, but not from the fall
              > of 1862.
              > If I was to guess about the difference, I would want to
              > confirm that all of Company A returned from Frederick by 17
              > September, the number of soldiers left behind in Washington and
              > the impact of the fighting on the 14th (perhaps some men were
              > still at Fox's Gap burying the dead or doing provost duty). If
              > Swift was relying on memory too many years after the fact, that
              > may also be a factor.
              > Bill
              > (PS Gerry, snip those posts)
              >
              > TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >





              ____________________________________________________________________________________
              Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
              http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • eighth_conn_inf
              Jake, Congratulations! I hope all is well. Of course the name for her that comes quickly to mind is Carmen --I don t know why. Antietam would be good,
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 5, 2008
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                Jake,

                Congratulations! I hope all is well.

                Of course the name for her that comes quickly to mind is "Carmen"--I
                don't know why. "Antietam" would be good, too--what do you think?

                Larry F.

                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Pierro
                <joseph_pierro@...> wrote:
                >
                > Bill,
                >
                > The sentence in the Carman mss. reads: "The 17th Michigan went into
                the fight with about 525 officers and men."
                >
                > In 95% of cases, I was able to flesh out Carman's often cryptic
                citations into something definitive. In this particular instance, I
                wasn't. Although he footnoted the figure in his mss., his citation
                simply reads "Frederick W. Swift" as the source.
                >
                > I dug through all of Carman's papers at the Lib of Congress, the
                Nat'l Archives, and the NY Public Library. I wasn't able to uncover
                any relevant correspondence in any of these, nor did I uncover a
                published source in which Swift gives that figure. (That doesn't
                necessarily mean that such a document did NOT exist in one of those
                collections at one time. I discovered in my research that a number of
                letters which people like Stephen Sears used 20 years ago have since
                disappeared from those collections. Perhaps Sandy Berger is a Civil
                War buff. . .).
                >
                > If someone wrote Carman a letter, he usually cited it as "letter of
                [DATE]." This is perhaps the only time in the mss where his simply
                gave someone's name as the source with no other information,
                suggesting to me that it most likely was the result of an informal
                conversation or an oral interview.
                >
                > That would suggest strongly that the informatiomn was given to
                Carman after his joining the Antietam Battlefield Board in Oct. 1894,
                but whether Swift was relying entirely on memory or if he had
                retained some documentation to support that figure is unknown.
                >
                > --jake
                >
                > P.S. My apologies in advance if I disappear for the next few days.
                My wife gave birth to our first child (a daughter) at around 9:30
                Monday evening. Between that and Super Tuesday (which, I just
                realized, is already here, as I'm writing this at about 1:00 ayem),
                it's a busy week. :)
                >
                >
                >
                > --
                > > Jake and Dean,
                > > Swift was there and I was not, but I would like to check
                > > further as to when and from where Carman got the Swift
                > > information.
                > > I have some Swift material in my files, but not from the fall
                > > of 1862.
                > > If I was to guess about the difference, I would want to
                > > confirm that all of Company A returned from Frederick by 17
                > > September, the number of soldiers left behind in Washington and
                > > the impact of the fighting on the 14th (perhaps some men were
                > > still at Fox's Gap burying the dead or doing provost duty). If
                > > Swift was relying on memory too many years after the fact, that
                > > may also be a factor.
                > > Bill
                > > (PS Gerry, snip those posts)
                > >
                > > TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                ______________________________________________________________________
                ______________
                > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Joseph Pierro
                LOl! Not with Pierro --at least, not in Virginia. (She ll have enough trouble with the vowel. Don t want her sounding TOO Italian. ;) Actually, it s
                Message 7 of 10 , Feb 5, 2008
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                  LOl! Not with "Pierro"--at least, not in Virginia. (She'll have enough trouble with the vowel. Don't want her sounding TOO Italian. ;)

                  Actually, it's "Caroline." I'm the U.S. historian in the family; my wife's the medievalist. The Carolingian dynasty was founded by Charlemagne and lasted until the French Revolution. (When we thought it was a boy, we were going to name her "Charles Martel," after Charlemagne's grandfather, who defetaed the Moslems and the battle of Poitiers in 732 and saved Christianity in western Europe.)

                  Thanks for the good wishes!

                  --j


                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...>
                  To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, February 5, 2008 8:08:30 AM
                  Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 17th Michigan numbers

                  Jake,

                  Congratulations! I hope all is well.

                  Of course the name for her that comes quickly to mind is "Carmen"--I
                  don't know why. "Antietam" would be good, too--what do you think?

                  Larry F.

                  --- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Joseph Pierro
                  <joseph_pierro@ ...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Bill,
                  >
                  > The sentence in the Carman mss. reads: "The 17th Michigan went into
                  the fight with about 525 officers and men."
                  >
                  > In 95% of cases, I was able to flesh out Carman's often cryptic
                  citations into something definitive. In this particular instance, I
                  wasn't. Although he footnoted the figure in his mss., his citation
                  simply reads "Frederick W. Swift" as the source.
                  >
                  > I dug through all of Carman's papers at the Lib of Congress, the
                  Nat'l Archives, and the NY Public Library. I wasn't able to uncover
                  any relevant correspondence in any of these, nor did I uncover a
                  published source in which Swift gives that figure. (That doesn't
                  necessarily mean that such a document did NOT exist in one of those
                  collections at one time. I discovered in my research that a number of
                  letters which people like Stephen Sears used 20 years ago have since
                  disappeared from those collections. Perhaps Sandy Berger is a Civil
                  War buff. . .).
                  >
                  > If someone wrote Carman a letter, he usually cited it as "letter of
                  [DATE]." This is perhaps the only time in the mss where his simply
                  gave someone's name as the source with no other information,
                  suggesting to me that it most likely was the result of an informal
                  conversation or an oral interview.
                  >
                  > That would suggest strongly that the informatiomn was given to
                  Carman after his joining the Antietam Battlefield Board in Oct. 1894,
                  but whether Swift was relying entirely on memory or if he had
                  retained some documentation to support that figure is unknown.
                  >
                  > --jake
                  >
                  > P.S. My apologies in advance if I disappear for the next few days.
                  My wife gave birth to our first child (a daughter) at around 9:30
                  Monday evening. Between that and Super Tuesday (which, I just
                  realized, is already here, as I'm writing this at about 1:00 ayem),
                  it's a busy week. :)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > > Jake and Dean,
                  > > Swift was there and I was not, but I would like to check
                  > > further as to when and from where Carman got the Swift
                  > > information.
                  > > I have some Swift material in my files, but not from the fall
                  > > of 1862.
                  > > If I was to guess about the difference, I would want to
                  > > confirm that all of Company A returned from Frederick by 17
                  > > September, the number of soldiers left behind in Washington and
                  > > the impact of the fighting on the 14th (perhaps some men were
                  > > still at Fox's Gap burying the dead or doing provost duty). If
                  > > Swift was relying on memory too many years after the fact, that
                  > > may also be a factor.
                  > > Bill
                  > > (PS Gerry, snip those posts)
                  > >
                  > > TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                  ____________ __
                  > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
                  > http://www.yahoo com/r/hs
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >





                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • G E Mayers
                  Dear Jake, CONGRATULATIONS! Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one s mother s side, is an
                  Message 8 of 10 , Feb 5, 2008
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                    Dear Jake,

                    CONGRATULATIONS!

                    Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    G E "Gerry" Mayers

                    To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                    on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                    Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                    the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Joseph Pierro" <joseph_pierro@...>
                    To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 1:10 AM
                    Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] RE: 17th Michigan numbers


                    <snip>> P.S. My apologies in advance if I disappear for the next
                    few days. My wife gave birth to our first child (a daughter) at
                    around 9:30 Monday evening. Between that and Super Tuesday
                    (which, I just realized, is already here, as I'm writing this at
                    about 1:00 ayem), it's a busy week. :)
                    >
                    >
                  • Dean Essig
                    Congratulations Jake! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them
                    Message 9 of 10 , Feb 5, 2008
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                      Congratulations Jake!


                      ____________________________________________________________________________________
                      Looking for last minute shopping deals?
                      Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
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