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## 17th Michigan numbers

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• Dean, I wrote the text for the Fox s Gap marker in 1986. Since then I have done much more research. In fact when I am done, I will have recreated the monthly
Message 1 of 10 , Feb 3, 2008
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Dean,

I wrote the text for the Fox's Gap marker in 1986. Since then I have done much more research. In fact when I am done, I will have recreated the monthly returns for the regiment based on surviving originals and an estimated daily "roll call" (a database that I am compiling) for the entire life of the regiment. I am just working through September 1862--there is a long way to go. This is important particularly since I helped with several other markers (Campbells Station, TN and Spotsylvania, VA) that listed the size of the regiment.

Let's try this exercise in "estimating" as I tell the fourth and fifth graders for whom I substitute teach:

The regiment left Detroit on 27 August 1862 with 982 men [82 officers, 900 enlisted]. This is a "hard" number, but from here on they get "softer." For the next two weeks the number of men on the muster rolls as sick, detached or deserted increased. Approximately 150 men were left in Washington because they were sick, or 980-150 = 830. Subtract another 10 for known deserters in early September, or 830-10 = 820. About ten officers and men were detached as supernumeraries or clerks at brigade and division headquarters, or 820-10 = 810.

Company A [approximately 80 men, 3 officers, about 77 men] was left in Frederick, Maryland as part of the Provost Guard on 13 September 1862, or 810-80 = 730.

Subtract another 10 for stragglers on the march during 14 September, or 730-10 = 720

So on the afternoon of 14 September the regiment's size (officer's and men) was about 720 [700-750 is a good range]. The casualties at South Mountain were 132 killed and wounded. Assuming that most of the wounded did not return to the ranks until after the 17th, subtract at least 125, or 720-125 = 595. Add Company A back in because it had returned to the regiment, or 590 + 80 = 675.

Therefore size of the regiment on 17 September before the fighting was approximately 675 [650-690]. The casualties at Antietam were around 100 killed and wounded, or 675-100 = 575 in the ranks on the morning of 18 September 1862.

The Adjutant of the regiment, Captain William V. Richards, wrote a letter to the _Detroit Advertiser and Tribune_ in the middle of October 1862. He stated that the size of the regiment was 562 in the field with 287 absent, sick and wounded (or 849 total). A number of the wounded from both battles had died as well during the prior thirty days and some of the wounded had recovered enough to return to the ranks. This number is close to my little math exercise's number. Perhaps I need to put an errata marker next to the big marker at Fox's Gap. I will have even better figures later this summer.

I do not remember what the NPS used as a source--it has been well over twenty years since I went went through the material at theVC library--perhaps Carmen. I am sure that I had the NPS information when the marker description was written. That is why I was waiting for Tom Clemen's research to be published, and now waiting for Jake's book. Perhaps the NPS numbers better reflect the size of the regiment after the 17th of September. In any rate, nothing is "set in stone" or "cast in bronze" yet again.

Bill

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
• Hi Bill! You ve certainly been looking at this harder than about any human alive, so that bares a certain amount of weight. FWIW, I found my notes of the exact
Message 2 of 10 , Feb 3, 2008
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Hi Bill!

You've certainly been looking at this harder than
about any human alive, so that bares a certain amount
of weight.

FWIW, I found my notes of the exact figure in the
park's file... and that is 525. All of their numbers
are meant to reflect men in the line on the morning of
the 17th (w/o knowing for sure all the details of
"effectives", "armed and equipped", but do count
officers and men). I do not know the sourcing of those
values but gave them great weight because of the
agency that produced and provided them.

The 150 man difference between their figure and yours
is a relatively big deal to me for my purposes, so I'm
really looking forward to your revised values.

Dean

--- Bill and Glenna Jo Christen
<gwjchris@...> wrote:

> Dean,
>
> I wrote the text for the Fox's Gap marker in 1986.
> Since then I have done much more research. In fact
> when I am done, I will have recreated the monthly
> returns for the regiment based on surviving
> originals and an estimated daily "roll call" (a
> database that I am compiling) for the entire life of
> the regiment. I am just working through September
> 1862--there is a long way to go. This is important
> particularly since I helped with several other
> markers (Campbells Station, TN and Spotsylvania, VA)
> that listed the size of the regiment.
>
> Let's try this exercise in "estimating" as I tell
> the fourth and fifth graders for whom I substitute
> teach:
>
> The regiment left Detroit on 27 August 1862 with 982
> men [82 officers, 900 enlisted]. This is a "hard"
> number, but from here on they get "softer." For the
> next two weeks the number of men on the muster rolls
> as sick, detached or deserted increased.
> Approximately 150 men were left in Washington
> because they were sick, or 980-150 = 830. Subtract
> another 10 for known deserters in early September,
> or 830-10 = 820. About ten officers and men were
> detached as supernumeraries or clerks at brigade and
> division headquarters, or 820-10 = 810.
>
> Company A [approximately 80 men, 3 officers, about
> 77 men] was left in Frederick, Maryland as part of
> the Provost Guard on 13 September 1862, or 810-80 =
> 730.
>
> Subtract another 10 for stragglers on the march
> during 14 September, or 730-10 = 720
>
> So on the afternoon of 14 September the regiment's
> size (officer's and men) was about 720 [700-750 is a
> good range]. The casualties at South Mountain were
> 132 killed and wounded. Assuming that most of the
> wounded did not return to the ranks until after the
> 17th, subtract at least 125, or 720-125 = 595. Add
> Company A back in because it had returned to the
> regiment, or 590 + 80 = 675.
>
> Therefore size of the regiment on 17 September
> before the fighting was approximately 675 [650-690].
> The casualties at Antietam were around 100 killed
> and wounded, or 675-100 = 575 in the ranks on the
> morning of 18 September 1862.
>
> The Adjutant of the regiment, Captain William V.
> Richards, wrote a letter to the _Detroit Advertiser
> and Tribune_ in the middle of October 1862. He
> stated that the size of the regiment was 562 in the
> field with 287 absent, sick and wounded (or 849
> total). A number of the wounded from both battles
> had died as well during the prior thirty days and
> some of the wounded had recovered enough to return
> to the ranks. This number is close to my little math
> exercise's number. Perhaps I need to put an errata
> marker next to the big marker at Fox's Gap. I will
> have even better figures later this summer.
>
> I do not remember what the NPS used as a source--it
> has been well over twenty years since I went went
> through the material at theVC library--perhaps
> Carmen. I am sure that I had the NPS information
> when the marker description was written. That is why
> I was waiting for Tom Clemen's research to be
> published, and now waiting for Jake's book. Perhaps
> the NPS numbers better reflect the size of the
> regiment after the 17th of September. In any rate,
> nothing is "set in stone" or "cast in bronze" yet
> again.
>
> Bill
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
• Dean/Bill, Carman (Jake) shows this on page 457: The 17th Michigan went into the fight with about 525 officers and men. The cite is Frederick W. Swift
Message 3 of 10 , Feb 3, 2008
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Dean/Bill,

Carman (Jake) shows this on page 457: "The 17th Michigan went into
the fight with about 525 officers and men." The cite is "Frederick W.
Swift" according to Carman's explantory notes.

Larry F.

--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Dean Essig <dean_essig@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Bill!
>
> You've certainly been looking at this harder than
> about any human alive, so that bares a certain amount
> of weight.
>
> FWIW, I found my notes of the exact figure in the
> park's file... and that is 525. All of their numbers
> are meant to reflect men in the line on the morning of
> the 17th (w/o knowing for sure all the details of
> "effectives", "armed and equipped", but do count
> officers and men). I do not know the sourcing of those
> values but gave them great weight because of the
> agency that produced and provided them.
>
> The 150 man difference between their figure and yours
> is a relatively big deal to me for my purposes, so I'm
> really looking forward to your revised values.
>
> Dean
>
> --- Bill and Glenna Jo Christen
> <gwjchris@...> wrote:
>
> > Dean,
> >
> > I wrote the text for the Fox's Gap marker in 1986.
> > Since then I have done much more research. In fact
> > when I am done, I will have recreated the monthly
> > returns for the regiment based on surviving
> > originals and an estimated daily "roll call" (a
> > database that I am compiling) for the entire life of
> > the regiment. I am just working through September
> > 1862--there is a long way to go. This is important
> > particularly since I helped with several other
> > markers (Campbells Station, TN and Spotsylvania, VA)
> > that listed the size of the regiment.
> >
> > Let's try this exercise in "estimating" as I tell
> > the fourth and fifth graders for whom I substitute
> > teach:
> >
> > The regiment left Detroit on 27 August 1862 with 982
> > men [82 officers, 900 enlisted]. This is a "hard"
> > number, but from here on they get "softer." For the
> > next two weeks the number of men on the muster rolls
> > as sick, detached or deserted increased.
> > Approximately 150 men were left in Washington
> > because they were sick, or 980-150 = 830. Subtract
> > another 10 for known deserters in early September,
> > or 830-10 = 820. About ten officers and men were
> > detached as supernumeraries or clerks at brigade and
> > division headquarters, or 820-10 = 810.
> >
> > Company A [approximately 80 men, 3 officers, about
> > 77 men] was left in Frederick, Maryland as part of
> > the Provost Guard on 13 September 1862, or 810-80 =
> > 730.
> >
> > Subtract another 10 for stragglers on the march
> > during 14 September, or 730-10 = 720
> >
> > So on the afternoon of 14 September the regiment's
> > size (officer's and men) was about 720 [700-750 is a
> > good range]. The casualties at South Mountain were
> > 132 killed and wounded. Assuming that most of the
> > wounded did not return to the ranks until after the
> > 17th, subtract at least 125, or 720-125 = 595. Add
> > Company A back in because it had returned to the
> > regiment, or 590 + 80 = 675.
> >
> > Therefore size of the regiment on 17 September
> > before the fighting was approximately 675 [650-690].
> > The casualties at Antietam were around 100 killed
> > and wounded, or 675-100 = 575 in the ranks on the
> > morning of 18 September 1862.
> >
> > The Adjutant of the regiment, Captain William V.
> > Richards, wrote a letter to the _Detroit Advertiser
> > and Tribune_ in the middle of October 1862. He
> > stated that the size of the regiment was 562 in the
> > field with 287 absent, sick and wounded (or 849
> > total). A number of the wounded from both battles
> > had died as well during the prior thirty days and
> > some of the wounded had recovered enough to return
> > to the ranks. This number is close to my little math
> > exercise's number. Perhaps I need to put an errata
> > marker next to the big marker at Fox's Gap. I will
> > have even better figures later this summer.
> >
> > I do not remember what the NPS used as a source--it
> > has been well over twenty years since I went went
> > through the material at theVC library--perhaps
> > Carmen. I am sure that I had the NPS information
> > when the marker description was written. That is why
> > I was waiting for Tom Clemen's research to be
> > published, and now waiting for Jake's book. Perhaps
> > the NPS numbers better reflect the size of the
> > regiment after the 17th of September. In any rate,
> > nothing is "set in stone" or "cast in bronze" yet
> > again.
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
______________
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
• Jake and Dean, Swift was there and I was not, but I would like to check further as to when and from where Carman got the Swift information. I have some Swift
Message 4 of 10 , Feb 4, 2008
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Jake and Dean,
Swift was there and I was not, but I would like to check further as to when and from where Carman got the Swift information.
I have some Swift material in my files, but not from the fall of 1862.
If I was to guess about the difference, I would want to confirm that all of Company A returned from Frederick by 17 September, the number of soldiers left behind in Washington and the impact of the fighting on the 14th (perhaps some men were still at Fox's Gap burying the dead or doing provost duty). If Swift was relying on memory too many years after the fact, that may also be a factor.
Bill
(PS Gerry, snip those posts)

TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
• Bill, I usually try to snip. But thanks for the reminder! Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on
Message 5 of 10 , Feb 4, 2008
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Bill,

I usually try to snip. But thanks for the reminder!

Yr. Obt. Svt.
G E "Gerry" Mayers

To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
the Almighty God. --Anonymous
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill and Glenna Jo Christen" <gwjchris@...>
To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 7:53 PM
Subject: [TalkAntietam] RE: 17th Michigan numbers

> Jake and Dean,
> Swift was there and I was not, but I would like to check
> further as to when and from where Carman got the Swift
> information.
> I have some Swift material in my files, but not from the fall
> of 1862.
> If I was to guess about the difference, I would want to
> confirm that all of Company A returned from Frederick by 17
> September, the number of soldiers left behind in Washington and
> the impact of the fighting on the 14th (perhaps some men were
> still at Fox's Gap burying the dead or doing provost duty). If
> Swift was relying on memory too many years after the fact, that
> may also be a factor.
> Bill
> (PS Gerry, snip those posts)
>
> TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
• Bill, The sentence in the Carman mss. reads: The 17th Michigan went into the fight with about 525 officers and men. In 95% of cases, I was able to flesh out
Message 6 of 10 , Feb 4, 2008
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Bill,

The sentence in the Carman mss. reads: "The 17th Michigan went into the fight with about 525 officers and men."

In 95% of cases, I was able to flesh out Carman's often cryptic citations into something definitive. In this particular instance, I wasn't. Although he footnoted the figure in his mss., his citation simply reads "Frederick W. Swift" as the source.

I dug through all of Carman's papers at the Lib of Congress, the Nat'l Archives, and the NY Public Library. I wasn't able to uncover any relevant correspondence in any of these, nor did I uncover a published source in which Swift gives that figure. (That doesn't necessarily mean that such a document did NOT exist in one of those collections at one time. I discovered in my research that a number of letters which people like Stephen Sears used 20 years ago have since disappeared from those collections. Perhaps Sandy Berger is a Civil War buff. . .).

If someone wrote Carman a letter, he usually cited it as "letter of [DATE]." This is perhaps the only time in the mss where his simply gave someone's name as the source with no other information, suggesting to me that it most likely was the result of an informal conversation or an oral interview.

That would suggest strongly that the informatiomn was given to Carman after his joining the Antietam Battlefield Board in Oct. 1894, but whether Swift was relying entirely on memory or if he had retained some documentation to support that figure is unknown.

--jake

P.S. My apologies in advance if I disappear for the next few days. My wife gave birth to our first child (a daughter) at around 9:30 Monday evening. Between that and Super Tuesday (which, I just realized, is already here, as I'm writing this at about 1:00 ayem), it's a busy week. :)

--
> Jake and Dean,
> Swift was there and I was not, but I would like to check
> further as to when and from where Carman got the Swift
> information.
> I have some Swift material in my files, but not from the fall
> of 1862.
> If I was to guess about the difference, I would want to
> confirm that all of Company A returned from Frederick by 17
> September, the number of soldiers left behind in Washington and
> the impact of the fighting on the 14th (perhaps some men were
> still at Fox's Gap burying the dead or doing provost duty). If
> Swift was relying on memory too many years after the fact, that
> may also be a factor.
> Bill
> (PS Gerry, snip those posts)
>
> TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
• Jake, Congratulations! I hope all is well. Of course the name for her that comes quickly to mind is Carmen --I don t know why. Antietam would be good,
Message 7 of 10 , Feb 5, 2008
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Jake,

Congratulations! I hope all is well.

Of course the name for her that comes quickly to mind is "Carmen"--I
don't know why. "Antietam" would be good, too--what do you think?

Larry F.

--- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Pierro
<joseph_pierro@...> wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> The sentence in the Carman mss. reads: "The 17th Michigan went into
the fight with about 525 officers and men."
>
> In 95% of cases, I was able to flesh out Carman's often cryptic
citations into something definitive. In this particular instance, I
wasn't. Although he footnoted the figure in his mss., his citation
simply reads "Frederick W. Swift" as the source.
>
> I dug through all of Carman's papers at the Lib of Congress, the
Nat'l Archives, and the NY Public Library. I wasn't able to uncover
any relevant correspondence in any of these, nor did I uncover a
published source in which Swift gives that figure. (That doesn't
necessarily mean that such a document did NOT exist in one of those
collections at one time. I discovered in my research that a number of
letters which people like Stephen Sears used 20 years ago have since
disappeared from those collections. Perhaps Sandy Berger is a Civil
War buff. . .).
>
> If someone wrote Carman a letter, he usually cited it as "letter of
[DATE]." This is perhaps the only time in the mss where his simply
gave someone's name as the source with no other information,
suggesting to me that it most likely was the result of an informal
conversation or an oral interview.
>
> That would suggest strongly that the informatiomn was given to
Carman after his joining the Antietam Battlefield Board in Oct. 1894,
but whether Swift was relying entirely on memory or if he had
retained some documentation to support that figure is unknown.
>
> --jake
>
> P.S. My apologies in advance if I disappear for the next few days.
My wife gave birth to our first child (a daughter) at around 9:30
Monday evening. Between that and Super Tuesday (which, I just
realized, is already here, as I'm writing this at about 1:00 ayem),
it's a busy week. :)
>
>
>
> --
> > Jake and Dean,
> > Swift was there and I was not, but I would like to check
> > further as to when and from where Carman got the Swift
> > information.
> > I have some Swift material in my files, but not from the fall
> > of 1862.
> > If I was to guess about the difference, I would want to
> > confirm that all of Company A returned from Frederick by 17
> > September, the number of soldiers left behind in Washington and
> > the impact of the fighting on the 14th (perhaps some men were
> > still at Fox's Gap burying the dead or doing provost duty). If
> > Swift was relying on memory too many years after the fact, that
> > may also be a factor.
> > Bill
> > (PS Gerry, snip those posts)
> >
> > TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
______________
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
• LOl! Not with Pierro --at least, not in Virginia. (She ll have enough trouble with the vowel. Don t want her sounding TOO Italian. ;) Actually, it s
Message 8 of 10 , Feb 5, 2008
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LOl! Not with "Pierro"--at least, not in Virginia. (She'll have enough trouble with the vowel. Don't want her sounding TOO Italian. ;)

Actually, it's "Caroline." I'm the U.S. historian in the family; my wife's the medievalist. The Carolingian dynasty was founded by Charlemagne and lasted until the French Revolution. (When we thought it was a boy, we were going to name her "Charles Martel," after Charlemagne's grandfather, who defetaed the Moslems and the battle of Poitiers in 732 and saved Christianity in western Europe.)

Thanks for the good wishes!

--j

----- Original Message ----
From: eighth_conn_inf <eighth_conn_inf@...>
To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 5, 2008 8:08:30 AM
Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: 17th Michigan numbers

Jake,

Congratulations! I hope all is well.

Of course the name for her that comes quickly to mind is "Carmen"--I
don't know why. "Antietam" would be good, too--what do you think?

Larry F.

--- In TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com, Joseph Pierro
<joseph_pierro@ ...> wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> The sentence in the Carman mss. reads: "The 17th Michigan went into
the fight with about 525 officers and men."
>
> In 95% of cases, I was able to flesh out Carman's often cryptic
citations into something definitive. In this particular instance, I
wasn't. Although he footnoted the figure in his mss., his citation
simply reads "Frederick W. Swift" as the source.
>
> I dug through all of Carman's papers at the Lib of Congress, the
Nat'l Archives, and the NY Public Library. I wasn't able to uncover
any relevant correspondence in any of these, nor did I uncover a
published source in which Swift gives that figure. (That doesn't
necessarily mean that such a document did NOT exist in one of those
collections at one time. I discovered in my research that a number of
letters which people like Stephen Sears used 20 years ago have since
disappeared from those collections. Perhaps Sandy Berger is a Civil
War buff. . .).
>
> If someone wrote Carman a letter, he usually cited it as "letter of
[DATE]." This is perhaps the only time in the mss where his simply
gave someone's name as the source with no other information,
suggesting to me that it most likely was the result of an informal
conversation or an oral interview.
>
> That would suggest strongly that the informatiomn was given to
Carman after his joining the Antietam Battlefield Board in Oct. 1894,
but whether Swift was relying entirely on memory or if he had
retained some documentation to support that figure is unknown.
>
> --jake
>
> P.S. My apologies in advance if I disappear for the next few days.
My wife gave birth to our first child (a daughter) at around 9:30
Monday evening. Between that and Super Tuesday (which, I just
realized, is already here, as I'm writing this at about 1:00 ayem),
it's a busy week. :)
>
>
>
> --
> > Jake and Dean,
> > Swift was there and I was not, but I would like to check
> > further as to when and from where Carman got the Swift
> > information.
> > I have some Swift material in my files, but not from the fall
> > of 1862.
> > If I was to guess about the difference, I would want to
> > confirm that all of Company A returned from Frederick by 17
> > September, the number of soldiers left behind in Washington and
> > the impact of the fighting on the 14th (perhaps some men were
> > still at Fox's Gap burying the dead or doing provost duty). If
> > Swift was relying on memory too many years after the fact, that
> > may also be a factor.
> > Bill
> > (PS Gerry, snip those posts)
> >
> > TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
____________ __
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
> http://www.yahoo com/r/hs
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
• Dear Jake, CONGRATULATIONS! Yr. Obt. Svt. G E Gerry Mayers To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even on one s mother s side, is an
Message 9 of 10 , Feb 5, 2008
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Dear Jake,

CONGRATULATIONS!

Yr. Obt. Svt.
G E "Gerry" Mayers

To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
the Almighty God. --Anonymous
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Pierro" <joseph_pierro@...>
To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 1:10 AM
Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] RE: 17th Michigan numbers

<snip>> P.S. My apologies in advance if I disappear for the next
few days. My wife gave birth to our first child (a daughter) at
around 9:30 Monday evening. Between that and Super Tuesday
(which, I just realized, is already here, as I'm writing this at
about 1:00 ayem), it's a busy week. :)
>
>
• Congratulations Jake! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them
Message 10 of 10 , Feb 5, 2008
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Congratulations Jake!

____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
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