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Re: Muster Dates

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  • dean_essig
    I was going to ask about this, but certainly didn t want to seem rude or ungrateful. The categories did seem a little too convenient. The strength numbers look
    Message 1 of 48 , Feb 2, 2008
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      I was going to ask about this, but certainly didn't want to seem rude or ungrateful. The
      categories did seem a little too convenient.

      The strength numbers look a lot like the values in Ted Alexander's files at the park (man, I
      wish I was close enough to bop over there and cross check). Many of my strength values
      (the hard ones) come from there... Jake, is there any such strength listing in Carmen or are
      these likely to be from the park plus whatever the designers found or thought they found?

      Lastly, it lists several very small regiments as forming under the command of other
      regiments in the same brigade (a perfectly reasonable thing to do to keep command
      control), but I don't know if this is actually the way they went into battle or an act of
      convenience by the designers.

      I'm very wary of using other games as sources because I'm well aware of the amount of
      fill-in-the-blank work that needs to be done and don't trust anyone to do mine for me.

      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@...> wrote:
      >
      > Indeed, that listing is from Meier's PC Game, which includes a sizable portion of
      Carman's manuscript.
      > Sorry that I mistakenly attributed those ratings directly to Carman.
      >
      > Tom Shay
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Joseph Pierro
      > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2008 12:35 AM
      > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates
      >
      >
      > On my last question, Tom, those categories almost sound as if they were set by a game
      designer.
      >
      > Did you take those by chance from the old Sid Meirs' "Antietam" game?
      >
      > The reason I ask: I know some of the unedited Carman mss. is included on that disc,
      but if that's where these are coming from, those categories and breakdowns aren't
      Carman's. They're the work of the software designers.
      >
      > ----- Original Message ----
      > From: Joseph Pierro <joseph_pierro@...>
      > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Saturday, February 2, 2008 12:13:07 AM
      > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates
      >
      > Tom, I'm confused. What is your source for Carman's "classifications, " as you list
      them?
      >
      > I don't recall him ever breaking down regiments into formal categories of readiness in
      the manner in which you provided them.
      >
      > --jake
      >
      > ----- Original Message ----
      > From: RoteBaron <RoteBaron@comcast. net>
      > To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
      > Sent: Friday, February 1, 2008 11:18:43 PM
      > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates
      >
      > I don't recall him describing the categories, but Iron Brigade is an example of Elite.
      >
      > Tom Shay
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: G E Mayers
      > To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
      > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:14 PM
      > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates
      >
      > Aside from Carman's categories for Green and Trained and
      > obviously Veteran, what were his qualifying points for Crack and
      > Elite?
      >
      > Yr. Obt. Svt.
      > G E "Gerry" Mayers
      >
      > To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
      > on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
      > Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
      > the Almighty God. --Anonymous
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "RoteBaron" <RoteBaron@comcast. net>
      > To: <TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com>
      > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 10:47 PM
      > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates
      >
      > > Carman rates the infantry within these levels: Green, Trained,
      > > Veteran, Crack, Elite.
      > >
      > > For instance, here is Union 9th Corps:
      > >
      > > NINTH ARMY CORPS Maj Gen. A. E. BURNSIDE
      > > FIRST DIVISION: Brig. Gen. ORLANDO B. WILLCOX
      > >
      > > First Brigade: Col. BENJAMIN C. CHRIST
      > > 28th Massachusetts, Capt. Andrew P. Caraher: 217 Trained troops
      > > 17th Michigan, Col. William H. Withington: 525 Green troops
      > > 79th New York, Lieut. Col. David Morrison: 193 Trained troops
      > > 50th Pennsylvania, Maj. Edward Overton: 370 Trained troops
      > >
      > >
      > > Second Brigade: Col. THOMAS WELSH
      > > 8th Michigan, Lieut. Col. Frank Graves: 435 Trained troops
      > > 46th New York, Lieut. Col. Joseph Gerhardt: 278 Trained troops
      > > 45th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. John I. Curtin: 560 Trained
      > > troops
      > > 100th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. David A. Leckey: 356 Trained
      > > troops
      > >
      > >
      > > Artillery.
      > > Massachusetts Light, Eighth Battery, Capt. Asa M. Cook: 6 mixed
      > > guns, 117 Trained troops
      > > 2d United States, Battery E, Lieut. Samuel N. Benjmin: 6 20-lb
      > > Parrotts, 129 Crack troops
      > >
      > >
      > > SECOND DIVISION: Brig. Gen. SAMUEL D. STURGIS
      > >
      > > First Brigade: Brig. Gen. JAMES NAGLE
      > > 2d Maryland, Lieut. Col. J. Eugene Duryea: 167 Trained troops
      > > 6th New Hampshire, Col. Simon G. Griffin: 157 Trained troops
      > > 9th New Hampshire, Col. Enoch Q. Fellows: 710 Green troops
      > > 48th Pennsylvania, Lieut. Col. Joshua K. Sigfried: 390 Trained
      > > troops
      > >
      > >
      > > Second Brigade: Brig. Gen. EDWARD FERRERO
      > > 21st Massachusetts, Col. William S. Clark: 158 Trained troops
      > > 35th Massachusetts, Col. Edward A. Wild: 750 Green troops
      > > 51st New York, Col. Robert B. Potter: 338 Trained troops
      > > 51st Pennsylvania, Col. John F. Hartranft: 333 Trained troops
      > >
      > >
      > > Artillery.
      > > Pennsylvania Light, Battery D, Capt. George W. Durell: 6 10-lb
      > > Parrotts, 123 Crack troops
      > > 4th United States, Battery E, Capt. Joseph C. Clark, jr: 4
      > > 10-lb Parrotts, 118 Crack troops
      > >
      > >
      > > THIRD DIVISION: Brig. Gen. ISAAC P. RODMAN
      > >
      > > First Brigade: Col. HARRISON S. FAIRCHILD
      > > 9th New York, Lieut. Col. Edgar A. Kimball: 375 Crack troops
      > > 89th New York, Maj Edward Jardine: 368 Trained troops
      > > 103d New York, Maj Benjamin Ringold: 202 Trained troops
      > >
      > >
      > > Second Brigade: Col. EDWARD HARLAND
      > > 8th Connecticut, Lieut. Col. Hiram Appelman: 375 Trained troops
      > > 11th Connecticut, Col. Henry W. Kingsbury: 430 Green troops
      > > 16th Connecticut, Col. Francis Beach: 739 Green troops
      > > 4th Rhode Island, Col. William H. P. Steere: 247 Trained troops
      > >
      > >
      > > Artillery.
      > > 5th United States, Battery A, Lieut. Charles P. Muhlenberg: 6
      > > Napoleons, 123 Crack troops
      > >
      > >
      > > KANAWHA (4th) DIVISION: Col. ELIAKIM P. SCAMMON
      > >
      > > First Brigade: Col. HUGH EWING
      > > 12th Ohio, Col. Carr B. White: 200 Veteran troops
      > > 23d Ohio, Maj. James M. Comly: 360 Veteran troops
      > > 30th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Theodore Jones: 342 Veteran troops
      > >
      > >
      > > Second Brigade: Col. GEORGE CROOK
      > > 11th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Augustus H, Coleman: 430 Trained troops
      > > 28th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Gottfried Becker: 719 Green troops
      > > 36th Ohio, Lieut. Col. Melvin Clarke: 739 Green Trained troops
      > >
      > >
      > > Artillery.
      > > Ohio Light Artillery, First Battery, Capt. James R. McMullin: 6
      > > 10-lb James, 129 Veteran troops
      > > Kentucky Lt Artillery, Simmonds' Bty, Capt. S. Simmonds: 3
      > > 10-lb Parrotts, 98 Veteran troops
      > > 2nd New York Light, Battery L, Capt. Jacob Roemer: 6 Ordnance,
      > > 98 Green troops
      > >
      > > Tom Shay - Cressona, PA
      > >
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: eighth_conn_ inf
      > > To: TalkAntietam@ yahoogroups. com
      > > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 9:36 AM
      > > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster Dates
      > >
      > >
      > > Dean,
      > >
      > > Looks like "green" may require your imposed definition. If you
      > > define
      > > it as a regiment with a majority of men who have never been in
      > > combat, then you have a good list already. But as you point
      > > out
      > > then "green" could also then mean a regiment with a majority
      > > of men
      > > who have been together for several months and have drilled,
      > > etc.,
      > > then that is a different kettle of fish (fresh fish). This
      > > would
      > > include most of the heavy artillery units around DC which
      > > turned into
      > > excellent cannon fodder during the Overland Campaign.
      > >
      > > IMO, "green" means a regiment which never has been in combat.
      > > But
      > > arguably a green regiment having drilled together and perhaps
      > > had
      > > marksmanship training would likely be much more effective than
      > > a "green" one which had none of that. I suppose you could
      > > assign a
      > > number from 1 to 10, 1 being brand new with no experience in
      > > anything
      > > to 10 being a regiment which has been in combat several times.
      > > This
      > > sounds like a great masters thesis topic.
      > >
      > > Larry F.
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    • G E Mayers
      Dear Stephen, One thing is clear...the Sunken Road slide, and I suspect the others....are meant to be viewed in either a magic lantern or a stereoscopic viewer
      Message 48 of 48 , Feb 9, 2008
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        Dear Stephen,

        One thing is clear...the Sunken Road slide, and I suspect the
        others....are meant to be viewed in either a magic lantern or a
        stereoscopic viewer of some sort.

        This particular photo seems to be one of the more famed post view
        views of the Sunken Road. The cabin in the distance is, IIRC,
        that built for one of the freed slaves formerly owned by Mr
        Piper. The cabin is on the edge of the Piper Farm property.

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Stephen Recker" <recker@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2008 8:46 AM
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Recher photo dates


        >I am trying to date these photos/stereoviews taken by
        >Hagerstown's own
        > E.M. Recher.
        >
        > SUNKEN ROAD
        > http://www.virtualantietam.com/dan_transfer/recher1.jpg
        > I believe the printing of this stereoview dates from 1880-1882.
        > It is
        > on a flat orange mount with rounded corners with no list on the
        > back.
        > It is in a series with views of Simon's dedication (1880). I
        > have found
        > the photo in three books with three different dates for the
        > negative -
        > 1872, 1877, and 1880. The log cabin is present in a 1904 view
        > of the
        > 130th PA veterans, so that does not help with the dating.
        >
        <snip>
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