Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: ANVa Supply Trains

Expand Messages
  • dean_essig
    Excellent post Jake and I agree fully! Pendleton sure does have an interesting relationship with the good functioning of the ANVa. Amazing that Lee put up with
    Message 1 of 21 , Feb 1, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      Excellent post Jake and I agree fully!

      Pendleton sure does have an interesting relationship with the good functioning of the
      ANVa. Amazing that Lee put up with it.

      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Pierro <joseph_pierro@...> wrote:
      >
      > Well, originally, the trains were ordered across because EVERYONE was being ordered
      across. Lee's first inclination after losing the So. Mtn. passes (as the order to McLaws
      shows) was to break off the entire campaign and retreat to Md. (After all, in a withdrawal,
      you send the trains first and keep the infantry in the rear -- the closest proximity to the
      pursuing enemy -- to conduct a fighting retreat. Recall Lee's similar orders regarding
      Imboden on the withdrawal from Gettysburg the following year.)
      >
      > It was only when he realized that McClellan wasn't pressing the advantage, and when
      word arrived of the fall of Harper's Ferry, that he decided to hold position with his infantry
      on the east bank of the Potomac and accept battle.
      >
      > As for the rest, given the fact that Pendleton had nearly three days to rest and refit his
      command, you have to wonder how it was that he managed to contribute next to nothing
      (no offense to Watson's Battery intended) on the day of the battle.
      >
      > In fact, one is hard pressed to think of a single instance where Pendleton, as chief of
      artillery, ever HELPED anyone (other than the Army of the Potomac) on a battlefield.
      >
      > --jake
      > ----- Original Message ----
      > From: dean_essig <dean_essig@...>
      > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Friday, February 1, 2008 7:25:52 PM
      > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: ANVa Supply Trains
      >
      > Thanks Jake!
      >
      > That fits well with what Tom and I have been thinking. The trains were ordered across to
      > maintain freedom of action and then, when battle was in the offing, the ordinance trains
      > (at least small arms) were brought back across from Shepherdstown.
      >
      > As for Pendleton's "exceptional" effort to provide reinforcements to the army, I have 2
      Co,
      > Richmond Va Howitzers (3 guns) under Watson arriving from Williamsport late on the
      > 17th. I assume this is the battery Carmen refers to.
      >
      > Dean
      >
      > Recent Activity
      > 1New Members
      > Visit Your Group
      > Only on Yahoo!
      > World of Star Wars
      > Meet fans, watch
      > videos & more.
      > Yahoo! News
      > Fashion News
      > What's the word on
      > fashion and style?
      > Yahoo! Groups
      > Self Improvement
      > Find support & keep
      > New Year's goals..
      >
      >
      >
      >
      ____________________________________________________________________________________
      > Be a better friend, newshound, and
      > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
      http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • G E Mayers
      Dear Jake; I have been working on a fictional novel telling the story of the First Maryland Campaign for reader possibly not as learned as we are in this
      Message 2 of 21 , Feb 1, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Jake;

        I have been working on a fictional novel telling the story of the
        First Maryland Campaign for reader possibly not as learned as we
        are in this group, concentrating on the unit level with the
        Fourth NC (The Bloody Fourth) and then the larger command level
        with Longstreet and Army HQ.

        Where I've run into a little dilemma is knowing where Anderson's
        brigade was positioned _after_ it was on the Old Sharpsburg Road
        to do a grand wheel back UP South Mountain to take the Federals
        in the flank and later, when it was determined to abandon the
        mountain, which route or routes Anderson's Brigade retreated
        towards Sharpsburg.

        Can you search your Carman MS and, under separate email, provide
        whatever information he might have? (Or, post here, if not
        terribly, terribly long and lengthy!)

        Thank you!

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 7:09 PM
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: ANVa Supply Trains


        Dean:

        Most of the trains and reserve artillery (one battalion excepted)
        were ordered by Lee to cross over to the Virginia side at
        Williamsport even before he decided to make his stand at
        Sharpsburg.


        from Carman:

        "When Robert E. Lee, after nightfall of September 14,
        realized
        that the action at Turner's Gap had gone against him, he
        abandoned
        (temporarily, at least) his idea of a further invasion of the
        North
        into Pennsylvania, or even of remaining in Maryland, and took
        immediate measures to reunite with McLaws and recross the Potomac
        into Virginia. Those who were with Lee say that he gave no sign
        of
        disappointment and depression that his campaign had ended in
        failure,
        but we can imagine it was with a swelling heart that, at 8:00
        p.m.,
        he sent this dispatch to McLaws:
        "'The day has gone against us and this army will go by
        Sharpsburg
        and cross the river. It is necessary for you to abandon
        your position to-night. Send your trains not required on the road
        to
        cross the river. Your troops you must have well in hand to unite
        with
        this command, which will retire by Sharpsburg. Send forward
        officers
        to explore the way, ascertain the best crossing of the Potomac,
        and
        if you can find any between you and Shepherdstown leave
        Shepherdstown
        Ford for this command. Send an officer to report to me on the
        Sharpsburg road, where you are and what crossing you will take.
        You
        will of course bring Anderson's division with you.'
        "At about the same hour, he sent a dispatch to Jackson to
        march
        up from Harper's Ferry and cover his passage of the Potomac at
        Shepherdstown Ford. (These orders to McLaws and Jackson
        contemplated
        the abandonment of operations against Harper's Ferry, but these
        had
        so far progressed that the place was then, virtually, in the
        grasp of
        Jackson and McLaws.) Longstreet and D. H. Hill were directed to
        push
        such of their commands and trains as were at and near Hagerstown
        across the Potomac at Williamsport. The three reserve artillery
        battalions at Beaver Creek (four miles north of Boonsboro)
        were ordered to move-two battalions by Williamsport into
        Virginia,
        one battalion to Keedysville."

        It would appear that Lee then kept them on the Va shore
        afterwards
        for so long because the operational and tactical situation
        remained
        in such a state of flux for the next few days. (Would McClellan
        attack on the 15th? The 16th? Would Jackson arrive on the 16th?
        Would
        McLaws arrive on the 17th?) With only a single ford at his back,
        the
        last thing Lee wanted if his lines broke was his trains and
        reserve
        artillery clogging the only route of escape.

        Carman again:
        "Late at night [of the 14th] the commander of the reserve
        artillery, General Pendleton (who with three battalions had, late
        in
        the afternoon, taken position on the heights of Beaver Creek,
        four
        miles north of Boonsboro) was summoned to Lee's headquarters
        and directed to send S. D. Lee's Battalion to Keedysville and to
        move
        with the battalions of Brown and Nelson by the shortest route to
        Williamsport and across the Potomac to guard the fords of the
        river.
        Pendleton hastened back to his camp, moved promptly to the
        Boonsboro
        and Williamsport Road, and by sunrise reached Jones's
        Cross-Roads,
        where the Williamsport Road intersects the Hagerstown and
        Sharpsburg
        Turnpike. Here he was informed that a large force of Union
        cavalry
        was not far ahead of him, upon which he placed some guns in
        position
        commanding the road leading to Williamsport and the Hagerstown
        Pike
        on either flank, sent to Toombs (who had passed down to
        Sharpsburg)
        for a regiment or two of infantry, and set to work collecting a
        band
        of armed stragglers to support his guns. Meanwhile, he had sent
        out
        scouting parties. These soon returned with information that the
        road
        was clear for some two miles, upon which (without waiting for
        infantry from Toombs) he resumed the road to destroy the
        'retiring
        invaders' with his artillery and protect the large wagon train
        proceeding by the Hagerstown Road through Williamsport. Colonel
        Davis's cavalry had passed on the road and attacked Longstreet's
        train, and Pendleton-without meeting an enemy or further delay-
        reached Williamsport and crossed the Potomac by Light's Ford into
        Virginia.
        "Colonel Brown, with his battalion of five batteries, was
        ordered
        to guard Light's Ford and a ford two miles below. Major Nelson's
        battalion of five batteries went down the river road to
        Shepherdstown, which he reached on the sixteenth, and took
        position on the heights commanding Shepherdstown Ford a mile
        below
        town."

        In typical Pendleton fashion, once the battle was joined and the
        artillery needed, he failed to rise to the emergency. Carman yet
        again:

        "About mid-day [of the 17th] Lee had sent this message to
        Pendleton, commanding the reserve artillery at Shepherdstown
        Ford: 'If
        you have fifteen or twenty guns, suitable for our purpose, which
        you
        can spare, the general desires you to send them, with a
        sufficiency
        of ammunition. You must not take them from the fords if essential
        to
        their safety. Send up the stragglers. Take any cavalry about
        there
        and send up at the point of the sword. We want ammunition, guns,
        and
        provisions.' Pendleton could not collect the stragglers, he sent
        up
        but little ammunition, and it was not until the engagement had
        closed
        that one battery arrived at Sharpsburg."

        Hope some of that helps.

        --jake
        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "dean_essig"
        <dean_essig@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Yes, I agree and have the infomation regarding the location of
        > the
        various artillery units.
        >
        > Not only was Lee still thinking about re-entering Md from the
        > Va
        side, but he hadn't ruled
        > out an "attacking withdrawal" to the north, through the Union
        > right
        wing to Hagerstown.
        >
        > Trying to do that with the trains in tow would be impossible,
        > but
        allowing the trains to
        > shadow the army on the Va side of the river makes a lot of
        > sense.
        >
        > Given the situation, this kind of decision making is
        > breathtakingly
        fearless.
        >
        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
        > <clemenst@>
        wrote:
        > >
        > > I will look and see what else I can find. I think Lee was
        > > using
        the river to protect his
        > trains preparatory to re-entering Maryland at Williamsport.
        > Even
        after he retreated on the
        > 18th/19th his intent was to re-cross the river there and move
        towards Hagerstown.
        > Giving the wagons a head start would open the roads for his
        infantry to move quickly. As
        > you know, he had artillery detached to guard Shepherdstown Ford
        > and
        Light's Ford, and
        > Stuart did go to Williamsport on the 19th to lead the way.
        > >
        > >
        > > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
        > > Professor of History
        > > Hagerstown Community College
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 2/1/2008 2:24 PM >>>
        > > Tom it is... glad to meet you, sir!
        > >
        > > Excellent information, that helps me spot the trains on the
        > > map.
        > >
        > > The artillery problem is an issue I'll need to resolve. I
        > > don't
        recall Reilly (who at least
        > > mentioned going back to look) or anyone else suggesting they
        > > had
        to ford the Potomac
        > to
        > > get a re-supply of artillery ammunition. So, this indirectly
        suggests that what stocks
        > they
        > > had available were in the Md side trains.
        > >
        > > Leaving me wondering what it was Lee was protecting across
        > > the
        river.
        > >
        > > Do you know of any other battery commanders recollections
        > > about
        the rather mundane
        > > matters of ammunition resupply on that day?
        > >
        > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
        > > <clemenst@>
        wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Dean,
        > > > I keep meaning to tell you, nobody calls me Thomas, Tom is
        > > > just
        fine. I think you have
        > it
        > > correctly stated. Location of the Artillery Reserve trains,
        > > such
        as they were with the loss
        > of
        > > many near Williamsport, is likely across the river, however I
        think some of it was
        > forwarded
        > > on the 18th as Lee called for gathering stragglers and ammo
        resupply. Going from
        > > memory, but in Lee's comments about his HQ tent he describes
        > > it
        as 1 & 1/4 miles from
        > > Cemetery Hill, (I think) making the two miles just about on
        > > Mt.
        Airy, the Grove family
        > farm.
        > > That would also be logical for there was access to water and
        > > lots
        of fields to park a
        > wagon
        > > train there.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
        > > > Professor of History
        > > > Hagerstown Community College
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 2/1/2008 1:55 PM >>>
        > > > Thomas,
        > > >
        > > > Reviewed the cited sections. All seems to be resolved but
        > > > one
        matter.
        > > >
        > > > What we know:
        > > > 1) The non-Ammunition trains are in Shepherdstown. Getting
        there at various dates.
        > > > Hood's were escorted to his division so the Texans could
        > > > get
        some food.
        > > >
        > > > 2) Small arms ammuntion trains were ordered back into Md
        > > > and
        positioned "2 miles to
        > > the
        > > > rear" (that distance is mentioned in several places, but
        > > > w/o a
        reference as to rear of
        > > what
        > > > or who).
        > > >
        > > > The one thing (two parts) that we don't know is:
        > > > 1a) Were the Army Reserve Ammunition trains still in
        > > > Virgina?
        Harsh believes so.
        > > >
        > > > 1b) Was there artillery ammunition in the trains that were
        > > > sent
        back into Md? This is
        > > > interesting because it seems that Lee kept the Reserve
        > > > Trains
        across the river to avoid
        > > > losing artillery ammunition.
        > > >
        > > > Am I off on any of the above and is there any answer to the
        unknowns?
        > > >
        > > > Dean
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
        <clemenst@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Dean,
        > > > > The info on the trains is mentioned in Chapter 8 of Taken
        > > > > at
        the Flood, pp. 338-9
        > > > footnotes 34 & 37 and also in Sounding the Shallows, pp.
        > > > 193-
        4. Let me know if you
        > > do
        > > > not have access to those books.
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        > > > > Professor of History
        > > > > Hagerstown Community College
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 01/30/08 11:18 AM >>>
        > > > > Excellent info, Thomas!
        > > > >
        > > > > That would bring all the loose ends together (no mean
        > > > > feat),
        if I can impose (and
        > > when
        > > > you
        > > > > get a chance) please dig out some sources on the "but
        > > > > ammo"
        exception.
        > > > >
        > > > > You may not have earned a free game yet, but you will by
        > > > > the
        time this project is
        > done
        > > > :-)
        > > > >
        > > > > Doesn't matter if you don't have time to play it, you'll
        > > > > want
        a copy of a product that
        > > has
        > > > your
        > > > > name in the research credits I would think. ;-)
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
        <clemenst@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Dean,
        > > > > > I am at work and away from sources, but it is my
        understanding that all trains
        > > except
        > > > > ammo were sent across the river. Thus Hood, looking for
        food, had to go find his
        > and
        > > > bring
        > > > > them forward, while Reilly etc. looking for ammo found
        > > > > theirs
        near Sharpsburg.
        > > > Longstreet'
        > > > > loss was the Reserve Artillery ammo for his command, not
        > > > > all
        of his trains.
        > > > > > Hope this helps. Do I get a free copy of the game?
        > > > > > :-)
        just kidding, I don't have
        > > time
        > > > to
        > > > > play them.
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • Thomas Clemens
        Dean, A quick check of CS artillery memoirs, etc does not definitely show any location of the ammunition reserve trains. sorry. Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        Message 3 of 21 , Feb 2, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Dean,
          A quick check of CS artillery memoirs, etc does not definitely show any location of the ammunition reserve trains. sorry.

          Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          Professor of History
          Hagerstown Community College


          >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 02/01/08 2:24 PM >>>
          Tom it is... glad to meet you, sir!

          Excellent information, that helps me spot the trains on the map.

          The artillery problem is an issue I'll need to resolve. I don't recall Reilly (who at least
          mentioned going back to look) or anyone else suggesting they had to ford the Potomac to
          get a re-supply of artillery ammunition. So, this indirectly suggests that what stocks they
          had available were in the Md side trains.

          Leaving me wondering what it was Lee was protecting across the river.

          Do you know of any other battery commanders recollections about the rather mundane
          matters of ammunition resupply on that day?
        • Dean Essig
          Tom, Thanks for looking. It looks like the issue might be moot for me anyway, Mt Airy is off my map area (very similar to the Carmen-Cope maps) to the SW, so
          Message 4 of 21 , Feb 2, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Tom,

            Thanks for looking. It looks like the issue might be
            moot for me anyway, Mt Airy is off my map area (very
            similar to the Carmen-Cope maps) to the SW, so guns
            looking to reload will have to shoot off the map there
            (with an explanation of when they come back). Since
            they are already going off the map, whether the trains
            are at Mt Airy, Shepherdstown, or Boetler's matters
            little... it will be a while in real time before they
            come back.

            Dean

            --- Thomas Clemens <clemenst@...> wrote:

            > Dean,
            > A quick check of CS artillery memoirs, etc does not
            > definitely show any location of the ammunition
            > reserve trains. sorry.
            >
            > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            > Professor of History
            > Hagerstown Community College
            >
            >
            > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 02/01/08
            > 2:24 PM >>>
            > Tom it is... glad to meet you, sir!
            >
            > Excellent information, that helps me spot the trains
            > on the map.
            >
            > The artillery problem is an issue I'll need to
            > resolve. I don't recall Reilly (who at least
            > mentioned going back to look) or anyone else
            > suggesting they had to ford the Potomac to
            > get a re-supply of artillery ammunition. So, this
            > indirectly suggests that what stocks they
            > had available were in the Md side trains.
            >
            > Leaving me wondering what it was Lee was protecting
            > across the river.
            >
            > Do you know of any other battery commanders
            > recollections about the rather mundane
            > matters of ammunition resupply on that day?
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >



            ____________________________________________________________________________________
            Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
            http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.