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Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: ANVa Supply Trains

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  • Thomas Clemens
    Dean, The info on the trains is mentioned in Chapter 8 of Taken at the Flood, pp. 338-9 footnotes 34 & 37 and also in Sounding the Shallows, pp. 193-4. Let me
    Message 1 of 21 , Jan 31, 2008
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      Dean,
      The info on the trains is mentioned in Chapter 8 of Taken at the Flood, pp. 338-9 footnotes 34 & 37 and also in Sounding the Shallows, pp. 193-4. Let me know if you do not have access to those books.


      Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
      Professor of History
      Hagerstown Community College


      >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 01/30/08 11:18 AM >>>
      Excellent info, Thomas!

      That would bring all the loose ends together (no mean feat), if I can impose (and when you
      get a chance) please dig out some sources on the "but ammo" exception.

      You may not have earned a free game yet, but you will by the time this project is done :-)

      Doesn't matter if you don't have time to play it, you'll want a copy of a product that has your
      name in the research credits I would think. ;-)

      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dean,
      > I am at work and away from sources, but it is my understanding that all trains except
      ammo were sent across the river. Thus Hood, looking for food, had to go find his and bring
      them forward, while Reilly etc. looking for ammo found theirs near Sharpsburg. Longstreet'
      loss was the Reserve Artillery ammo for his command, not all of his trains.
      > Hope this helps. Do I get a free copy of the game? :-) just kidding, I don't have time to
      play them.
    • dean_essig
      Thomas, I have all three... thanks so much! ... footnotes 34 & 37 and also in Sounding the Shallows, pp. 193-4. Let me know if you do not have access to those
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 31, 2008
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        Thomas,

        I have all three... thanks so much!

        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dean,
        > The info on the trains is mentioned in Chapter 8 of Taken at the Flood, pp. 338-9
        footnotes 34 & 37 and also in Sounding the Shallows, pp. 193-4. Let me know if you do not
        have access to those books.
        >
      • dean_essig
        Thomas, Reviewed the cited sections. All seems to be resolved but one matter. What we know: 1) The non-Ammunition trains are in Shepherdstown. Getting there at
        Message 3 of 21 , Feb 1, 2008
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          Thomas,

          Reviewed the cited sections. All seems to be resolved but one matter.

          What we know:
          1) The non-Ammunition trains are in Shepherdstown. Getting there at various dates.
          Hood's were escorted to his division so the Texans could get some food.

          2) Small arms ammuntion trains were ordered back into Md and positioned "2 miles to the
          rear" (that distance is mentioned in several places, but w/o a reference as to rear of what
          or who).

          The one thing (two parts) that we don't know is:
          1a) Were the Army Reserve Ammunition trains still in Virgina? Harsh believes so.

          1b) Was there artillery ammunition in the trains that were sent back into Md? This is
          interesting because it seems that Lee kept the Reserve Trains across the river to avoid
          losing artillery ammunition.

          Am I off on any of the above and is there any answer to the unknowns?

          Dean


          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dean,
          > The info on the trains is mentioned in Chapter 8 of Taken at the Flood, pp. 338-9
          footnotes 34 & 37 and also in Sounding the Shallows, pp. 193-4. Let me know if you do
          not have access to those books.
          >
          >
          > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
          > Professor of History
          > Hagerstown Community College
          >
          >
          > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 01/30/08 11:18 AM >>>
          > Excellent info, Thomas!
          >
          > That would bring all the loose ends together (no mean feat), if I can impose (and when
          you
          > get a chance) please dig out some sources on the "but ammo" exception.
          >
          > You may not have earned a free game yet, but you will by the time this project is done
          :-)
          >
          > Doesn't matter if you don't have time to play it, you'll want a copy of a product that has
          your
          > name in the research credits I would think. ;-)
          >
          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Dean,
          > > I am at work and away from sources, but it is my understanding that all trains except
          > ammo were sent across the river. Thus Hood, looking for food, had to go find his and
          bring
          > them forward, while Reilly etc. looking for ammo found theirs near Sharpsburg.
          Longstreet'
          > loss was the Reserve Artillery ammo for his command, not all of his trains.
          > > Hope this helps. Do I get a free copy of the game? :-) just kidding, I don't have time
          to
          > play them.
          >
        • Thomas Clemens
          Dean, I keep meaning to tell you, nobody calls me Thomas, Tom is just fine. I think you have it correctly stated. Location of the Artillery Reserve trains,
          Message 4 of 21 , Feb 1, 2008
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            Dean,
            I keep meaning to tell you, nobody calls me Thomas, Tom is just fine. I think you have it correctly stated. Location of the Artillery Reserve trains, such as they were with the loss of many near Williamsport, is likely across the river, however I think some of it was forwarded on the 18th as Lee called for gathering stragglers and ammo resupply. Going from memory, but in Lee's comments about his HQ tent he describes it as 1 & 1/4 miles from Cemetery Hill, (I think) making the two miles just about on Mt. Airy, the Grove family farm. That would also be logical for there was access to water and lots of fields to park a wagon train there.


            Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
            Professor of History
            Hagerstown Community College



            >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 2/1/2008 1:55 PM >>>
            Thomas,

            Reviewed the cited sections. All seems to be resolved but one matter.

            What we know:
            1) The non-Ammunition trains are in Shepherdstown. Getting there at various dates.
            Hood's were escorted to his division so the Texans could get some food.

            2) Small arms ammuntion trains were ordered back into Md and positioned "2 miles to the
            rear" (that distance is mentioned in several places, but w/o a reference as to rear of what
            or who).

            The one thing (two parts) that we don't know is:
            1a) Were the Army Reserve Ammunition trains still in Virgina? Harsh believes so.

            1b) Was there artillery ammunition in the trains that were sent back into Md? This is
            interesting because it seems that Lee kept the Reserve Trains across the river to avoid
            losing artillery ammunition.

            Am I off on any of the above and is there any answer to the unknowns?

            Dean


            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dean,
            > The info on the trains is mentioned in Chapter 8 of Taken at the Flood, pp. 338-9
            footnotes 34 & 37 and also in Sounding the Shallows, pp. 193-4. Let me know if you do
            not have access to those books.
            >
            >
            > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
            > Professor of History
            > Hagerstown Community College
            >
            >
            > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 01/30/08 11:18 AM >>>
            > Excellent info, Thomas!
            >
            > That would bring all the loose ends together (no mean feat), if I can impose (and when
            you
            > get a chance) please dig out some sources on the "but ammo" exception.
            >
            > You may not have earned a free game yet, but you will by the time this project is done
            :-)
            >
            > Doesn't matter if you don't have time to play it, you'll want a copy of a product that has
            your
            > name in the research credits I would think. ;-)
            >
            > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Dean,
            > > I am at work and away from sources, but it is my understanding that all trains except
            > ammo were sent across the river. Thus Hood, looking for food, had to go find his and
            bring
            > them forward, while Reilly etc. looking for ammo found theirs near Sharpsburg.
            Longstreet'
            > loss was the Reserve Artillery ammo for his command, not all of his trains.
            > > Hope this helps. Do I get a free copy of the game? :-) just kidding, I don't have time
            to
            > play them.
            >
          • dean_essig
            Tom it is... glad to meet you, sir! Excellent information, that helps me spot the trains on the map. The artillery problem is an issue I ll need to resolve. I
            Message 5 of 21 , Feb 1, 2008
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              Tom it is... glad to meet you, sir!

              Excellent information, that helps me spot the trains on the map.

              The artillery problem is an issue I'll need to resolve. I don't recall Reilly (who at least
              mentioned going back to look) or anyone else suggesting they had to ford the Potomac to
              get a re-supply of artillery ammunition. So, this indirectly suggests that what stocks they
              had available were in the Md side trains.

              Leaving me wondering what it was Lee was protecting across the river.

              Do you know of any other battery commanders recollections about the rather mundane
              matters of ammunition resupply on that day?

              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dean,
              > I keep meaning to tell you, nobody calls me Thomas, Tom is just fine. I think you have it
              correctly stated. Location of the Artillery Reserve trains, such as they were with the loss of
              many near Williamsport, is likely across the river, however I think some of it was forwarded
              on the 18th as Lee called for gathering stragglers and ammo resupply. Going from
              memory, but in Lee's comments about his HQ tent he describes it as 1 & 1/4 miles from
              Cemetery Hill, (I think) making the two miles just about on Mt. Airy, the Grove family farm.
              That would also be logical for there was access to water and lots of fields to park a wagon
              train there.
              >
              >
              > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
              > Professor of History
              > Hagerstown Community College
              >
              >
              >
              > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 2/1/2008 1:55 PM >>>
              > Thomas,
              >
              > Reviewed the cited sections. All seems to be resolved but one matter.
              >
              > What we know:
              > 1) The non-Ammunition trains are in Shepherdstown. Getting there at various dates.
              > Hood's were escorted to his division so the Texans could get some food.
              >
              > 2) Small arms ammuntion trains were ordered back into Md and positioned "2 miles to
              the
              > rear" (that distance is mentioned in several places, but w/o a reference as to rear of
              what
              > or who).
              >
              > The one thing (two parts) that we don't know is:
              > 1a) Were the Army Reserve Ammunition trains still in Virgina? Harsh believes so.
              >
              > 1b) Was there artillery ammunition in the trains that were sent back into Md? This is
              > interesting because it seems that Lee kept the Reserve Trains across the river to avoid
              > losing artillery ammunition.
              >
              > Am I off on any of the above and is there any answer to the unknowns?
              >
              > Dean
              >
              >
              > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Dean,
              > > The info on the trains is mentioned in Chapter 8 of Taken at the Flood, pp. 338-9
              > footnotes 34 & 37 and also in Sounding the Shallows, pp. 193-4. Let me know if you
              do
              > not have access to those books.
              > >
              > >
              > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
              > > Professor of History
              > > Hagerstown Community College
              > >
              > >
              > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 01/30/08 11:18 AM >>>
              > > Excellent info, Thomas!
              > >
              > > That would bring all the loose ends together (no mean feat), if I can impose (and
              when
              > you
              > > get a chance) please dig out some sources on the "but ammo" exception.
              > >
              > > You may not have earned a free game yet, but you will by the time this project is done
              > :-)
              > >
              > > Doesn't matter if you don't have time to play it, you'll want a copy of a product that
              has
              > your
              > > name in the research credits I would think. ;-)
              > >
              > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Dean,
              > > > I am at work and away from sources, but it is my understanding that all trains
              except
              > > ammo were sent across the river. Thus Hood, looking for food, had to go find his and
              > bring
              > > them forward, while Reilly etc. looking for ammo found theirs near Sharpsburg.
              > Longstreet'
              > > loss was the Reserve Artillery ammo for his command, not all of his trains.
              > > > Hope this helps. Do I get a free copy of the game? :-) just kidding, I don't have
              time
              > to
              > > play them.
              > >
              >
            • G E Mayers
              Dean; Some of the artillery was left at Williamsport and some was left near Shepherdstown. Shepherdstown also was where the hospitals, etc were. He was also
              Message 6 of 21 , Feb 1, 2008
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                Dean;

                Some of the artillery was left at Williamsport and some was left
                near Shepherdstown. Shepherdstown also was where the hospitals,
                etc were.

                He was also protecting his only retreat route.

                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...>
                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 2:24 PM
                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: ANVa Supply Trains


                Tom it is... glad to meet you, sir!

                Excellent information, that helps me spot the trains on the map.

                The artillery problem is an issue I'll need to resolve. I don't
                recall Reilly (who at least
                mentioned going back to look) or anyone else suggesting they had
                to ford the Potomac to
                get a re-supply of artillery ammunition. So, this indirectly
                suggests that what stocks they
                had available were in the Md side trains.

                Leaving me wondering what it was Lee was protecting across the
                river.

                Do you know of any other battery commanders recollections about
                the rather mundane
                matters of ammunition resupply on that day?

                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                <clemenst@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dean,
                > I keep meaning to tell you, nobody calls me Thomas, Tom is just
                > fine. I think you have it
                correctly stated. Location of the Artillery Reserve trains, such
                as they were with the loss of
                many near Williamsport, is likely across the river, however I
                think some of it was forwarded
                on the 18th as Lee called for gathering stragglers and ammo
                resupply. Going from
                memory, but in Lee's comments about his HQ tent he describes it
                as 1 & 1/4 miles from
                Cemetery Hill, (I think) making the two miles just about on Mt.
                Airy, the Grove family farm.
                That would also be logical for there was access to water and lots
                of fields to park a wagon
                train there.
                >
                >
                > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                > Professor of History
                > Hagerstown Community College
                >
                >
                >
                > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 2/1/2008 1:55 PM >>>
                > Thomas,
                >
                > Reviewed the cited sections. All seems to be resolved but one
                > matter.
                >
                > What we know:
                > 1) The non-Ammunition trains are in Shepherdstown. Getting
                > there at various dates.
                > Hood's were escorted to his division so the Texans could get
                > some food.
                >
                > 2) Small arms ammuntion trains were ordered back into Md and
                > positioned "2 miles to
                the
                > rear" (that distance is mentioned in several places, but w/o a
                > reference as to rear of
                what
                > or who).
                >
                > The one thing (two parts) that we don't know is:
                > 1a) Were the Army Reserve Ammunition trains still in Virgina?
                > Harsh believes so.
                >
                > 1b) Was there artillery ammunition in the trains that were sent
                > back into Md? This is
                > interesting because it seems that Lee kept the Reserve Trains
                > across the river to avoid
                > losing artillery ammunition.
                >
                > Am I off on any of the above and is there any answer to the
                > unknowns?
                >
                > Dean
                >
                >
                > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                > <clemenst@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Dean,
                > > The info on the trains is mentioned in Chapter 8 of Taken at
                > > the Flood, pp. 338-9
                > footnotes 34 & 37 and also in Sounding the Shallows, pp. 193-4.
                > Let me know if you
                do
                > not have access to those books.
                > >
                > >
                > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                > > Professor of History
                > > Hagerstown Community College
                > >
                > >
                > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 01/30/08 11:18 AM >>>
                > > Excellent info, Thomas!
                > >
                > > That would bring all the loose ends together (no mean feat),
                > > if I can impose (and
                when
                > you
                > > get a chance) please dig out some sources on the "but ammo"
                > > exception.
                > >
                > > You may not have earned a free game yet, but you will by the
                > > time this project is done
                > :-)
                > >
                > > Doesn't matter if you don't have time to play it, you'll want
                > > a copy of a product that
                has
                > your
                > > name in the research credits I would think. ;-)
                > >
                > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                > > <clemenst@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Dean,
                > > > I am at work and away from sources, but it is my
                > > > understanding that all trains
                except
                > > ammo were sent across the river. Thus Hood, looking for
                > > food, had to go find his and
                > bring
                > > them forward, while Reilly etc. looking for ammo found theirs
                > > near Sharpsburg.
                > Longstreet'
                > > loss was the Reserve Artillery ammo for his command, not all
                > > of his trains.
                > > > Hope this helps. Do I get a free copy of the game? :-)
                > > > just kidding, I don't have
                time
                > to
                > > play them.
                > >
                >
              • Thomas Clemens
                I will look and see what else I can find. I think Lee was using the river to protect his trains preparatory to re-entering Maryland at Williamsport. Even
                Message 7 of 21 , Feb 1, 2008
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                  I will look and see what else I can find. I think Lee was using the river to protect his trains preparatory to re-entering Maryland at Williamsport. Even after he retreated on the 18th/19th his intent was to re-cross the river there and move towards Hagerstown. Giving the wagons a head start would open the roads for his infantry to move quickly. As you know, he had artillery detached to guard Shepherdstown Ford and Light's Ford, and Stuart did go to Williamsport on the 19th to lead the way.


                  Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                  Professor of History
                  Hagerstown Community College



                  >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 2/1/2008 2:24 PM >>>
                  Tom it is... glad to meet you, sir!

                  Excellent information, that helps me spot the trains on the map.

                  The artillery problem is an issue I'll need to resolve. I don't recall Reilly (who at least
                  mentioned going back to look) or anyone else suggesting they had to ford the Potomac to
                  get a re-supply of artillery ammunition. So, this indirectly suggests that what stocks they
                  had available were in the Md side trains.

                  Leaving me wondering what it was Lee was protecting across the river.

                  Do you know of any other battery commanders recollections about the rather mundane
                  matters of ammunition resupply on that day?

                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dean,
                  > I keep meaning to tell you, nobody calls me Thomas, Tom is just fine. I think you have it
                  correctly stated. Location of the Artillery Reserve trains, such as they were with the loss of
                  many near Williamsport, is likely across the river, however I think some of it was forwarded
                  on the 18th as Lee called for gathering stragglers and ammo resupply. Going from
                  memory, but in Lee's comments about his HQ tent he describes it as 1 & 1/4 miles from
                  Cemetery Hill, (I think) making the two miles just about on Mt. Airy, the Grove family farm.
                  That would also be logical for there was access to water and lots of fields to park a wagon
                  train there.
                  >
                  >
                  > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                  > Professor of History
                  > Hagerstown Community College
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 2/1/2008 1:55 PM >>>
                  > Thomas,
                  >
                  > Reviewed the cited sections. All seems to be resolved but one matter.
                  >
                  > What we know:
                  > 1) The non-Ammunition trains are in Shepherdstown. Getting there at various dates.
                  > Hood's were escorted to his division so the Texans could get some food.
                  >
                  > 2) Small arms ammuntion trains were ordered back into Md and positioned "2 miles to
                  the
                  > rear" (that distance is mentioned in several places, but w/o a reference as to rear of
                  what
                  > or who).
                  >
                  > The one thing (two parts) that we don't know is:
                  > 1a) Were the Army Reserve Ammunition trains still in Virgina? Harsh believes so.
                  >
                  > 1b) Was there artillery ammunition in the trains that were sent back into Md? This is
                  > interesting because it seems that Lee kept the Reserve Trains across the river to avoid
                  > losing artillery ammunition.
                  >
                  > Am I off on any of the above and is there any answer to the unknowns?
                  >
                  > Dean
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Dean,
                  > > The info on the trains is mentioned in Chapter 8 of Taken at the Flood, pp. 338-9
                  > footnotes 34 & 37 and also in Sounding the Shallows, pp. 193-4. Let me know if you
                  do
                  > not have access to those books.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                  > > Professor of History
                  > > Hagerstown Community College
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 01/30/08 11:18 AM >>>
                  > > Excellent info, Thomas!
                  > >
                  > > That would bring all the loose ends together (no mean feat), if I can impose (and
                  when
                  > you
                  > > get a chance) please dig out some sources on the "but ammo" exception.
                  > >
                  > > You may not have earned a free game yet, but you will by the time this project is done
                  > :-)
                  > >
                  > > Doesn't matter if you don't have time to play it, you'll want a copy of a product that
                  has
                  > your
                  > > name in the research credits I would think. ;-)
                  > >
                  > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Dean,
                  > > > I am at work and away from sources, but it is my understanding that all trains
                  except
                  > > ammo were sent across the river. Thus Hood, looking for food, had to go find his and
                  > bring
                  > > them forward, while Reilly etc. looking for ammo found theirs near Sharpsburg.
                  > Longstreet'
                  > > loss was the Reserve Artillery ammo for his command, not all of his trains.
                  > > > Hope this helps. Do I get a free copy of the game? :-) just kidding, I don't have
                  time
                  > to
                  > > play them.
                  > >
                  >
                • bdowney@aotw.org
                  Thanks Tom - I was just going to pop on the same theme. I think this is really a key perception most people _do not_ have about the Campaign. As late as the
                  Message 8 of 21 , Feb 1, 2008
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                    Thanks Tom - I was just going to pop on the same theme.

                    I think this is really a key perception most people _do not_ have about the Campaign. As late as the first week of October Lee was still corresponding with management (Richmond) and elsewhere (Loring, e.g.) to determine the possibility of returning to Maryland. He abandoned the idea only reluctantly, and later than I would have thought rational (in perfect hindsight).

                    Much of Pendleton's reserve artillery was scattered on 15-18 Sept covering fords and crossings for that purpose. They gave Lee offensive options, not just a secure back door.

                    Cool stuff.

                    > -------- Original Message --------
                    > Subject: Re: [TalkAntietam] Re: ANVa Supply Trains
                    > From: "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
                    > Date: Fri, February 01, 2008 2:29 pm
                    > To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                    >
                    > Dean;
                    >
                    > Some of the artillery was left at Williamsport and some was left
                    > near Shepherdstown. Shepherdstown also was where the hospitals,
                    > etc were.
                    >
                    > He was also protecting his only retreat route.
                    >
                    > Yr. Obt. Svt.
                    > G E "Gerry" Mayers
                    >
                  • dean_essig
                    Yes, I agree and have the infomation regarding the location of the various artillery units. Not only was Lee still thinking about re-entering Md from the Va
                    Message 9 of 21 , Feb 1, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Yes, I agree and have the infomation regarding the location of the various artillery units.

                      Not only was Lee still thinking about re-entering Md from the Va side, but he hadn't ruled
                      out an "attacking withdrawal" to the north, through the Union right wing to Hagerstown.

                      Trying to do that with the trains in tow would be impossible, but allowing the trains to
                      shadow the army on the Va side of the river makes a lot of sense.

                      Given the situation, this kind of decision making is breathtakingly fearless.

                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I will look and see what else I can find. I think Lee was using the river to protect his
                      trains preparatory to re-entering Maryland at Williamsport. Even after he retreated on the
                      18th/19th his intent was to re-cross the river there and move towards Hagerstown.
                      Giving the wagons a head start would open the roads for his infantry to move quickly. As
                      you know, he had artillery detached to guard Shepherdstown Ford and Light's Ford, and
                      Stuart did go to Williamsport on the 19th to lead the way.
                      >
                      >
                      > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                      > Professor of History
                      > Hagerstown Community College
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 2/1/2008 2:24 PM >>>
                      > Tom it is... glad to meet you, sir!
                      >
                      > Excellent information, that helps me spot the trains on the map.
                      >
                      > The artillery problem is an issue I'll need to resolve. I don't recall Reilly (who at least
                      > mentioned going back to look) or anyone else suggesting they had to ford the Potomac
                      to
                      > get a re-supply of artillery ammunition. So, this indirectly suggests that what stocks
                      they
                      > had available were in the Md side trains.
                      >
                      > Leaving me wondering what it was Lee was protecting across the river.
                      >
                      > Do you know of any other battery commanders recollections about the rather mundane
                      > matters of ammunition resupply on that day?
                      >
                      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Dean,
                      > > I keep meaning to tell you, nobody calls me Thomas, Tom is just fine. I think you have
                      it
                      > correctly stated. Location of the Artillery Reserve trains, such as they were with the loss
                      of
                      > many near Williamsport, is likely across the river, however I think some of it was
                      forwarded
                      > on the 18th as Lee called for gathering stragglers and ammo resupply. Going from
                      > memory, but in Lee's comments about his HQ tent he describes it as 1 & 1/4 miles from
                      > Cemetery Hill, (I think) making the two miles just about on Mt. Airy, the Grove family
                      farm.
                      > That would also be logical for there was access to water and lots of fields to park a
                      wagon
                      > train there.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                      > > Professor of History
                      > > Hagerstown Community College
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 2/1/2008 1:55 PM >>>
                      > > Thomas,
                      > >
                      > > Reviewed the cited sections. All seems to be resolved but one matter.
                      > >
                      > > What we know:
                      > > 1) The non-Ammunition trains are in Shepherdstown. Getting there at various dates.
                      > > Hood's were escorted to his division so the Texans could get some food.
                      > >
                      > > 2) Small arms ammuntion trains were ordered back into Md and positioned "2 miles to
                      > the
                      > > rear" (that distance is mentioned in several places, but w/o a reference as to rear of
                      > what
                      > > or who).
                      > >
                      > > The one thing (two parts) that we don't know is:
                      > > 1a) Were the Army Reserve Ammunition trains still in Virgina? Harsh believes so.
                      > >
                      > > 1b) Was there artillery ammunition in the trains that were sent back into Md? This is
                      > > interesting because it seems that Lee kept the Reserve Trains across the river to avoid
                      > > losing artillery ammunition.
                      > >
                      > > Am I off on any of the above and is there any answer to the unknowns?
                      > >
                      > > Dean
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Dean,
                      > > > The info on the trains is mentioned in Chapter 8 of Taken at the Flood, pp. 338-9
                      > > footnotes 34 & 37 and also in Sounding the Shallows, pp. 193-4. Let me know if you
                      > do
                      > > not have access to those books.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                      > > > Professor of History
                      > > > Hagerstown Community College
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 01/30/08 11:18 AM >>>
                      > > > Excellent info, Thomas!
                      > > >
                      > > > That would bring all the loose ends together (no mean feat), if I can impose (and
                      > when
                      > > you
                      > > > get a chance) please dig out some sources on the "but ammo" exception.
                      > > >
                      > > > You may not have earned a free game yet, but you will by the time this project is
                      done
                      > > :-)
                      > > >
                      > > > Doesn't matter if you don't have time to play it, you'll want a copy of a product that
                      > has
                      > > your
                      > > > name in the research credits I would think. ;-)
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Dean,
                      > > > > I am at work and away from sources, but it is my understanding that all trains
                      > except
                      > > > ammo were sent across the river. Thus Hood, looking for food, had to go find his
                      and
                      > > bring
                      > > > them forward, while Reilly etc. looking for ammo found theirs near Sharpsburg.
                      > > Longstreet'
                      > > > loss was the Reserve Artillery ammo for his command, not all of his trains.
                      > > > > Hope this helps. Do I get a free copy of the game? :-) just kidding, I don't have
                      > time
                      > > to
                      > > > play them.
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • joseph_pierro
                      Dean: Most of the trains and reserve artillery (one battalion excepted) were ordered by Lee to cross over to the Virginia side at Williamsport even before he
                      Message 10 of 21 , Feb 1, 2008
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                        Dean:

                        Most of the trains and reserve artillery (one battalion excepted)
                        were ordered by Lee to cross over to the Virginia side at
                        Williamsport even before he decided to make his stand at Sharpsburg.


                        from Carman:

                        "When Robert E. Lee, after nightfall of September 14, realized
                        that the action at Turner's Gap had gone against him, he abandoned
                        (temporarily, at least) his idea of a further invasion of the North
                        into Pennsylvania, or even of remaining in Maryland, and took
                        immediate measures to reunite with McLaws and recross the Potomac
                        into Virginia. Those who were with Lee say that he gave no sign of
                        disappointment and depression that his campaign had ended in failure,
                        but we can imagine it was with a swelling heart that, at 8:00 p.m.,
                        he sent this dispatch to McLaws:
                        "'The day has gone against us and this army will go by Sharpsburg
                        and cross the river. It is necessary for you to abandon
                        your position to-night. Send your trains not required on the road to
                        cross the river. Your troops you must have well in hand to unite with
                        this command, which will retire by Sharpsburg. Send forward officers
                        to explore the way, ascertain the best crossing of the Potomac, and
                        if you can find any between you and Shepherdstown leave Shepherdstown
                        Ford for this command. Send an officer to report to me on the
                        Sharpsburg road, where you are and what crossing you will take. You
                        will of course bring Anderson's division with you.'
                        "At about the same hour, he sent a dispatch to Jackson to march
                        up from Harper's Ferry and cover his passage of the Potomac at
                        Shepherdstown Ford. (These orders to McLaws and Jackson contemplated
                        the abandonment of operations against Harper's Ferry, but these had
                        so far progressed that the place was then, virtually, in the grasp of
                        Jackson and McLaws.) Longstreet and D. H. Hill were directed to push
                        such of their commands and trains as were at and near Hagerstown
                        across the Potomac at Williamsport. The three reserve artillery
                        battalions at Beaver Creek (four miles north of Boonsboro)
                        were ordered to move—two battalions by Williamsport into Virginia,
                        one battalion to Keedysville."

                        It would appear that Lee then kept them on the Va shore afterwards
                        for so long because the operational and tactical situation remained
                        in such a state of flux for the next few days. (Would McClellan
                        attack on the 15th? The 16th? Would Jackson arrive on the 16th? Would
                        McLaws arrive on the 17th?) With only a single ford at his back, the
                        last thing Lee wanted if his lines broke was his trains and reserve
                        artillery clogging the only route of escape.

                        Carman again:
                        "Late at night [of the 14th] the commander of the reserve
                        artillery, General Pendleton (who with three battalions had, late in
                        the afternoon, taken position on the heights of Beaver Creek, four
                        miles north of Boonsboro) was summoned to Lee's headquarters
                        and directed to send S. D. Lee's Battalion to Keedysville and to move
                        with the battalions of Brown and Nelson by the shortest route to
                        Williamsport and across the Potomac to guard the fords of the river.
                        Pendleton hastened back to his camp, moved promptly to the Boonsboro
                        and Williamsport Road, and by sunrise reached Jones's Cross-Roads,
                        where the Williamsport Road intersects the Hagerstown and Sharpsburg
                        Turnpike. Here he was informed that a large force of Union cavalry
                        was not far ahead of him, upon which he placed some guns in position
                        commanding the road leading to Williamsport and the Hagerstown Pike
                        on either flank, sent to Toombs (who had passed down to Sharpsburg)
                        for a regiment or two of infantry, and set to work collecting a band
                        of armed stragglers to support his guns. Meanwhile, he had sent out
                        scouting parties. These soon returned with information that the road
                        was clear for some two miles, upon which (without waiting for
                        infantry from Toombs) he resumed the road to destroy the 'retiring
                        invaders' with his artillery and protect the large wagon train
                        proceeding by the Hagerstown Road through Williamsport. Colonel
                        Davis's cavalry had passed on the road and attacked Longstreet's
                        train, and Pendleton—without meeting an enemy or further delay—
                        reached Williamsport and crossed the Potomac by Light's Ford into
                        Virginia.
                        "Colonel Brown, with his battalion of five batteries, was ordered
                        to guard Light's Ford and a ford two miles below. Major Nelson's
                        battalion of five batteries went down the river road to
                        Shepherdstown, which he reached on the sixteenth, and took
                        position on the heights commanding Shepherdstown Ford a mile below
                        town."

                        In typical Pendleton fashion, once the battle was joined and the
                        artillery needed, he failed to rise to the emergency. Carman yet
                        again:

                        "About mid-day [of the 17th] Lee had sent this message to
                        Pendleton, commanding the reserve artillery at Shepherdstown Ford: 'If
                        you have fifteen or twenty guns, suitable for our purpose, which you
                        can spare, the general desires you to send them, with a sufficiency
                        of ammunition. You must not take them from the fords if essential to
                        their safety. Send up the stragglers. Take any cavalry about there
                        and send up at the point of the sword. We want ammunition, guns, and
                        provisions.' Pendleton could not collect the stragglers, he sent up
                        but little ammunition, and it was not until the engagement had closed
                        that one battery arrived at Sharpsburg."

                        Hope some of that helps.

                        --jake
                        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Yes, I agree and have the infomation regarding the location of the
                        various artillery units.
                        >
                        > Not only was Lee still thinking about re-entering Md from the Va
                        side, but he hadn't ruled
                        > out an "attacking withdrawal" to the north, through the Union right
                        wing to Hagerstown.
                        >
                        > Trying to do that with the trains in tow would be impossible, but
                        allowing the trains to
                        > shadow the army on the Va side of the river makes a lot of sense.
                        >
                        > Given the situation, this kind of decision making is breathtakingly
                        fearless.
                        >
                        > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                        wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I will look and see what else I can find. I think Lee was using
                        the river to protect his
                        > trains preparatory to re-entering Maryland at Williamsport. Even
                        after he retreated on the
                        > 18th/19th his intent was to re-cross the river there and move
                        towards Hagerstown.
                        > Giving the wagons a head start would open the roads for his
                        infantry to move quickly. As
                        > you know, he had artillery detached to guard Shepherdstown Ford and
                        Light's Ford, and
                        > Stuart did go to Williamsport on the 19th to lead the way.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                        > > Professor of History
                        > > Hagerstown Community College
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 2/1/2008 2:24 PM >>>
                        > > Tom it is... glad to meet you, sir!
                        > >
                        > > Excellent information, that helps me spot the trains on the map.
                        > >
                        > > The artillery problem is an issue I'll need to resolve. I don't
                        recall Reilly (who at least
                        > > mentioned going back to look) or anyone else suggesting they had
                        to ford the Potomac
                        > to
                        > > get a re-supply of artillery ammunition. So, this indirectly
                        suggests that what stocks
                        > they
                        > > had available were in the Md side trains.
                        > >
                        > > Leaving me wondering what it was Lee was protecting across the
                        river.
                        > >
                        > > Do you know of any other battery commanders recollections about
                        the rather mundane
                        > > matters of ammunition resupply on that day?
                        > >
                        > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                        wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Dean,
                        > > > I keep meaning to tell you, nobody calls me Thomas, Tom is just
                        fine. I think you have
                        > it
                        > > correctly stated. Location of the Artillery Reserve trains, such
                        as they were with the loss
                        > of
                        > > many near Williamsport, is likely across the river, however I
                        think some of it was
                        > forwarded
                        > > on the 18th as Lee called for gathering stragglers and ammo
                        resupply. Going from
                        > > memory, but in Lee's comments about his HQ tent he describes it
                        as 1 & 1/4 miles from
                        > > Cemetery Hill, (I think) making the two miles just about on Mt.
                        Airy, the Grove family
                        > farm.
                        > > That would also be logical for there was access to water and lots
                        of fields to park a
                        > wagon
                        > > train there.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                        > > > Professor of History
                        > > > Hagerstown Community College
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 2/1/2008 1:55 PM >>>
                        > > > Thomas,
                        > > >
                        > > > Reviewed the cited sections. All seems to be resolved but one
                        matter.
                        > > >
                        > > > What we know:
                        > > > 1) The non-Ammunition trains are in Shepherdstown. Getting
                        there at various dates.
                        > > > Hood's were escorted to his division so the Texans could get
                        some food.
                        > > >
                        > > > 2) Small arms ammuntion trains were ordered back into Md and
                        positioned "2 miles to
                        > > the
                        > > > rear" (that distance is mentioned in several places, but w/o a
                        reference as to rear of
                        > > what
                        > > > or who).
                        > > >
                        > > > The one thing (two parts) that we don't know is:
                        > > > 1a) Were the Army Reserve Ammunition trains still in Virgina?
                        Harsh believes so.
                        > > >
                        > > > 1b) Was there artillery ammunition in the trains that were sent
                        back into Md? This is
                        > > > interesting because it seems that Lee kept the Reserve Trains
                        across the river to avoid
                        > > > losing artillery ammunition.
                        > > >
                        > > > Am I off on any of the above and is there any answer to the
                        unknowns?
                        > > >
                        > > > Dean
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                        <clemenst@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Dean,
                        > > > > The info on the trains is mentioned in Chapter 8 of Taken at
                        the Flood, pp. 338-9
                        > > > footnotes 34 & 37 and also in Sounding the Shallows, pp. 193-
                        4. Let me know if you
                        > > do
                        > > > not have access to those books.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                        > > > > Professor of History
                        > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 01/30/08 11:18 AM >>>
                        > > > > Excellent info, Thomas!
                        > > > >
                        > > > > That would bring all the loose ends together (no mean feat),
                        if I can impose (and
                        > > when
                        > > > you
                        > > > > get a chance) please dig out some sources on the "but ammo"
                        exception.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > You may not have earned a free game yet, but you will by the
                        time this project is
                        > done
                        > > > :-)
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Doesn't matter if you don't have time to play it, you'll want
                        a copy of a product that
                        > > has
                        > > > your
                        > > > > name in the research credits I would think. ;-)
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                        <clemenst@> wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Dean,
                        > > > > > I am at work and away from sources, but it is my
                        understanding that all trains
                        > > except
                        > > > > ammo were sent across the river. Thus Hood, looking for
                        food, had to go find his
                        > and
                        > > > bring
                        > > > > them forward, while Reilly etc. looking for ammo found theirs
                        near Sharpsburg.
                        > > > Longstreet'
                        > > > > loss was the Reserve Artillery ammo for his command, not all
                        of his trains.
                        > > > > > Hope this helps. Do I get a free copy of the game? :-)
                        just kidding, I don't have
                        > > time
                        > > > to
                        > > > > play them.
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • dean_essig
                        Thanks Jake! That fits well with what Tom and I have been thinking. The trains were ordered across to maintain freedom of action and then, when battle was in
                        Message 11 of 21 , Feb 1, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Thanks Jake!

                          That fits well with what Tom and I have been thinking. The trains were ordered across to
                          maintain freedom of action and then, when battle was in the offing, the ordinance trains
                          (at least small arms) were brought back across from Shepherdstown.

                          As for Pendleton's "exceptional" effort to provide reinforcements to the army, I have 2 Co,
                          Richmond Va Howitzers (3 guns) under Watson arriving from Williamsport late on the
                          17th. I assume this is the battery Carmen refers to.

                          Dean

                          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Dean:
                          >
                          > Most of the trains and reserve artillery (one battalion excepted)
                          > were ordered by Lee to cross over to the Virginia side at
                          > Williamsport even before he decided to make his stand at Sharpsburg.
                          >
                          >
                          > from Carman:
                          >
                          > "When Robert E. Lee, after nightfall of September 14, realized
                          > that the action at Turner's Gap had gone against him, he abandoned
                          > (temporarily, at least) his idea of a further invasion of the North
                          > into Pennsylvania, or even of remaining in Maryland, and took
                          > immediate measures to reunite with McLaws and recross the Potomac
                          > into Virginia. Those who were with Lee say that he gave no sign of
                          > disappointment and depression that his campaign had ended in failure,
                          > but we can imagine it was with a swelling heart that, at 8:00 p.m.,
                          > he sent this dispatch to McLaws:
                          > "'The day has gone against us and this army will go by Sharpsburg
                          > and cross the river. It is necessary for you to abandon
                          > your position to-night. Send your trains not required on the road to
                          > cross the river. Your troops you must have well in hand to unite with
                          > this command, which will retire by Sharpsburg. Send forward officers
                          > to explore the way, ascertain the best crossing of the Potomac, and
                          > if you can find any between you and Shepherdstown leave Shepherdstown
                          > Ford for this command. Send an officer to report to me on the
                          > Sharpsburg road, where you are and what crossing you will take. You
                          > will of course bring Anderson's division with you.'
                          > "At about the same hour, he sent a dispatch to Jackson to march
                          > up from Harper's Ferry and cover his passage of the Potomac at
                          > Shepherdstown Ford. (These orders to McLaws and Jackson contemplated
                          > the abandonment of operations against Harper's Ferry, but these had
                          > so far progressed that the place was then, virtually, in the grasp of
                          > Jackson and McLaws.) Longstreet and D. H. Hill were directed to push
                          > such of their commands and trains as were at and near Hagerstown
                          > across the Potomac at Williamsport. The three reserve artillery
                          > battalions at Beaver Creek (four miles north of Boonsboro)
                          > were ordered to move—two battalions by Williamsport into Virginia,
                          > one battalion to Keedysville."
                          >
                          > It would appear that Lee then kept them on the Va shore afterwards
                          > for so long because the operational and tactical situation remained
                          > in such a state of flux for the next few days. (Would McClellan
                          > attack on the 15th? The 16th? Would Jackson arrive on the 16th? Would
                          > McLaws arrive on the 17th?) With only a single ford at his back, the
                          > last thing Lee wanted if his lines broke was his trains and reserve
                          > artillery clogging the only route of escape.
                          >
                          > Carman again:
                          > "Late at night [of the 14th] the commander of the reserve
                          > artillery, General Pendleton (who with three battalions had, late in
                          > the afternoon, taken position on the heights of Beaver Creek, four
                          > miles north of Boonsboro) was summoned to Lee's headquarters
                          > and directed to send S. D. Lee's Battalion to Keedysville and to move
                          > with the battalions of Brown and Nelson by the shortest route to
                          > Williamsport and across the Potomac to guard the fords of the river.
                          > Pendleton hastened back to his camp, moved promptly to the Boonsboro
                          > and Williamsport Road, and by sunrise reached Jones's Cross-Roads,
                          > where the Williamsport Road intersects the Hagerstown and Sharpsburg
                          > Turnpike. Here he was informed that a large force of Union cavalry
                          > was not far ahead of him, upon which he placed some guns in position
                          > commanding the road leading to Williamsport and the Hagerstown Pike
                          > on either flank, sent to Toombs (who had passed down to Sharpsburg)
                          > for a regiment or two of infantry, and set to work collecting a band
                          > of armed stragglers to support his guns. Meanwhile, he had sent out
                          > scouting parties. These soon returned with information that the road
                          > was clear for some two miles, upon which (without waiting for
                          > infantry from Toombs) he resumed the road to destroy the 'retiring
                          > invaders' with his artillery and protect the large wagon train
                          > proceeding by the Hagerstown Road through Williamsport. Colonel
                          > Davis's cavalry had passed on the road and attacked Longstreet's
                          > train, and Pendleton—without meeting an enemy or further delay—
                          > reached Williamsport and crossed the Potomac by Light's Ford into
                          > Virginia.
                          > "Colonel Brown, with his battalion of five batteries, was ordered
                          > to guard Light's Ford and a ford two miles below. Major Nelson's
                          > battalion of five batteries went down the river road to
                          > Shepherdstown, which he reached on the sixteenth, and took
                          > position on the heights commanding Shepherdstown Ford a mile below
                          > town."
                          >
                          > In typical Pendleton fashion, once the battle was joined and the
                          > artillery needed, he failed to rise to the emergency. Carman yet
                          > again:
                          >
                          > "About mid-day [of the 17th] Lee had sent this message to
                          > Pendleton, commanding the reserve artillery at Shepherdstown Ford: 'If
                          > you have fifteen or twenty guns, suitable for our purpose, which you
                          > can spare, the general desires you to send them, with a sufficiency
                          > of ammunition. You must not take them from the fords if essential to
                          > their safety. Send up the stragglers. Take any cavalry about there
                          > and send up at the point of the sword. We want ammunition, guns, and
                          > provisions.' Pendleton could not collect the stragglers, he sent up
                          > but little ammunition, and it was not until the engagement had closed
                          > that one battery arrived at Sharpsburg."
                          >
                          > Hope some of that helps.
                          >
                          > --jake
                          > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "dean_essig" <dean_essig@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Yes, I agree and have the infomation regarding the location of the
                          > various artillery units.
                          > >
                          > > Not only was Lee still thinking about re-entering Md from the Va
                          > side, but he hadn't ruled
                          > > out an "attacking withdrawal" to the north, through the Union right
                          > wing to Hagerstown.
                          > >
                          > > Trying to do that with the trains in tow would be impossible, but
                          > allowing the trains to
                          > > shadow the army on the Va side of the river makes a lot of sense.
                          > >
                          > > Given the situation, this kind of decision making is breathtakingly
                          > fearless.
                          > >
                          > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                          > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > I will look and see what else I can find. I think Lee was using
                          > the river to protect his
                          > > trains preparatory to re-entering Maryland at Williamsport. Even
                          > after he retreated on the
                          > > 18th/19th his intent was to re-cross the river there and move
                          > towards Hagerstown.
                          > > Giving the wagons a head start would open the roads for his
                          > infantry to move quickly. As
                          > > you know, he had artillery detached to guard Shepherdstown Ford and
                          > Light's Ford, and
                          > > Stuart did go to Williamsport on the 19th to lead the way.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                          > > > Professor of History
                          > > > Hagerstown Community College
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 2/1/2008 2:24 PM >>>
                          > > > Tom it is... glad to meet you, sir!
                          > > >
                          > > > Excellent information, that helps me spot the trains on the map.
                          > > >
                          > > > The artillery problem is an issue I'll need to resolve. I don't
                          > recall Reilly (who at least
                          > > > mentioned going back to look) or anyone else suggesting they had
                          > to ford the Potomac
                          > > to
                          > > > get a re-supply of artillery ammunition. So, this indirectly
                          > suggests that what stocks
                          > > they
                          > > > had available were in the Md side trains.
                          > > >
                          > > > Leaving me wondering what it was Lee was protecting across the
                          > river.
                          > > >
                          > > > Do you know of any other battery commanders recollections about
                          > the rather mundane
                          > > > matters of ammunition resupply on that day?
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@>
                          > wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Dean,
                          > > > > I keep meaning to tell you, nobody calls me Thomas, Tom is just
                          > fine. I think you have
                          > > it
                          > > > correctly stated. Location of the Artillery Reserve trains, such
                          > as they were with the loss
                          > > of
                          > > > many near Williamsport, is likely across the river, however I
                          > think some of it was
                          > > forwarded
                          > > > on the 18th as Lee called for gathering stragglers and ammo
                          > resupply. Going from
                          > > > memory, but in Lee's comments about his HQ tent he describes it
                          > as 1 & 1/4 miles from
                          > > > Cemetery Hill, (I think) making the two miles just about on Mt.
                          > Airy, the Grove family
                          > > farm.
                          > > > That would also be logical for there was access to water and lots
                          > of fields to park a
                          > > wagon
                          > > > train there.
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                          > > > > Professor of History
                          > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 2/1/2008 1:55 PM >>>
                          > > > > Thomas,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Reviewed the cited sections. All seems to be resolved but one
                          > matter.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > What we know:
                          > > > > 1) The non-Ammunition trains are in Shepherdstown. Getting
                          > there at various dates.
                          > > > > Hood's were escorted to his division so the Texans could get
                          > some food.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > 2) Small arms ammuntion trains were ordered back into Md and
                          > positioned "2 miles to
                          > > > the
                          > > > > rear" (that distance is mentioned in several places, but w/o a
                          > reference as to rear of
                          > > > what
                          > > > > or who).
                          > > > >
                          > > > > The one thing (two parts) that we don't know is:
                          > > > > 1a) Were the Army Reserve Ammunition trains still in Virgina?
                          > Harsh believes so.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > 1b) Was there artillery ammunition in the trains that were sent
                          > back into Md? This is
                          > > > > interesting because it seems that Lee kept the Reserve Trains
                          > across the river to avoid
                          > > > > losing artillery ammunition.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Am I off on any of the above and is there any answer to the
                          > unknowns?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Dean
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                          > <clemenst@> wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Dean,
                          > > > > > The info on the trains is mentioned in Chapter 8 of Taken at
                          > the Flood, pp. 338-9
                          > > > > footnotes 34 & 37 and also in Sounding the Shallows, pp. 193-
                          > 4. Let me know if you
                          > > > do
                          > > > > not have access to those books.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                          > > > > > Professor of History
                          > > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 01/30/08 11:18 AM >>>
                          > > > > > Excellent info, Thomas!
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > That would bring all the loose ends together (no mean feat),
                          > if I can impose (and
                          > > > when
                          > > > > you
                          > > > > > get a chance) please dig out some sources on the "but ammo"
                          > exception.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > You may not have earned a free game yet, but you will by the
                          > time this project is
                          > > done
                          > > > > :-)
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Doesn't matter if you don't have time to play it, you'll want
                          > a copy of a product that
                          > > > has
                          > > > > your
                          > > > > > name in the research credits I would think. ;-)
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                          > <clemenst@> wrote:
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Dean,
                          > > > > > > I am at work and away from sources, but it is my
                          > understanding that all trains
                          > > > except
                          > > > > > ammo were sent across the river. Thus Hood, looking for
                          > food, had to go find his
                          > > and
                          > > > > bring
                          > > > > > them forward, while Reilly etc. looking for ammo found theirs
                          > near Sharpsburg.
                          > > > > Longstreet'
                          > > > > > loss was the Reserve Artillery ammo for his command, not all
                          > of his trains.
                          > > > > > > Hope this helps. Do I get a free copy of the game? :-)
                          > just kidding, I don't have
                          > > > time
                          > > > > to
                          > > > > > play them.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Joseph Pierro
                          Well, originally, the trains were ordered across because EVERYONE was being ordered across. Lee s first inclination after losing the So. Mtn. passes (as the
                          Message 12 of 21 , Feb 1, 2008
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                            Well, originally, the trains were ordered across because EVERYONE was being ordered across. Lee's first inclination after losing the So. Mtn. passes (as the order to McLaws shows) was to break off the entire campaign and retreat to Md. (After all, in a withdrawal, you send the trains first and keep the infantry in the rear -- the closest proximity to the pursuing enemy -- to conduct a fighting retreat. Recall Lee's similar orders regarding Imboden on the withdrawal from Gettysburg the following year.)

                            It was only when he realized that McClellan wasn't pressing the advantage, and when word arrived of the fall of Harper's Ferry, that he decided to hold position with his infantry on the east bank of the Potomac and accept battle.

                            As for the rest, given the fact that Pendleton had nearly three days to rest and refit his command, you have to wonder how it was that he managed to contribute next to nothing (no offense to Watson's Battery intended) on the day of the battle.

                            In fact, one is hard pressed to think of a single instance where Pendleton, as chief of artillery, ever HELPED anyone (other than the Army of the Potomac) on a battlefield.

                            --jake
                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: dean_essig <dean_essig@...>
                            To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Friday, February 1, 2008 7:25:52 PM
                            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: ANVa Supply Trains

                            Thanks Jake!

                            That fits well with what Tom and I have been thinking. The trains were ordered across to
                            maintain freedom of action and then, when battle was in the offing, the ordinance trains
                            (at least small arms) were brought back across from Shepherdstown.

                            As for Pendleton's "exceptional" effort to provide reinforcements to the army, I have 2 Co,
                            Richmond Va Howitzers (3 guns) under Watson arriving from Williamsport late on the
                            17th. I assume this is the battery Carmen refers to.

                            Dean

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                          • dean_essig
                            Excellent post Jake and I agree fully! Pendleton sure does have an interesting relationship with the good functioning of the ANVa. Amazing that Lee put up with
                            Message 13 of 21 , Feb 1, 2008
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                              Excellent post Jake and I agree fully!

                              Pendleton sure does have an interesting relationship with the good functioning of the
                              ANVa. Amazing that Lee put up with it.

                              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, Joseph Pierro <joseph_pierro@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Well, originally, the trains were ordered across because EVERYONE was being ordered
                              across. Lee's first inclination after losing the So. Mtn. passes (as the order to McLaws
                              shows) was to break off the entire campaign and retreat to Md. (After all, in a withdrawal,
                              you send the trains first and keep the infantry in the rear -- the closest proximity to the
                              pursuing enemy -- to conduct a fighting retreat. Recall Lee's similar orders regarding
                              Imboden on the withdrawal from Gettysburg the following year.)
                              >
                              > It was only when he realized that McClellan wasn't pressing the advantage, and when
                              word arrived of the fall of Harper's Ferry, that he decided to hold position with his infantry
                              on the east bank of the Potomac and accept battle.
                              >
                              > As for the rest, given the fact that Pendleton had nearly three days to rest and refit his
                              command, you have to wonder how it was that he managed to contribute next to nothing
                              (no offense to Watson's Battery intended) on the day of the battle.
                              >
                              > In fact, one is hard pressed to think of a single instance where Pendleton, as chief of
                              artillery, ever HELPED anyone (other than the Army of the Potomac) on a battlefield.
                              >
                              > --jake
                              > ----- Original Message ----
                              > From: dean_essig <dean_essig@...>
                              > To: TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Friday, February 1, 2008 7:25:52 PM
                              > Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: ANVa Supply Trains
                              >
                              > Thanks Jake!
                              >
                              > That fits well with what Tom and I have been thinking. The trains were ordered across to
                              > maintain freedom of action and then, when battle was in the offing, the ordinance trains
                              > (at least small arms) were brought back across from Shepherdstown.
                              >
                              > As for Pendleton's "exceptional" effort to provide reinforcements to the army, I have 2
                              Co,
                              > Richmond Va Howitzers (3 guns) under Watson arriving from Williamsport late on the
                              > 17th. I assume this is the battery Carmen refers to.
                              >
                              > Dean
                              >
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                            • G E Mayers
                              Dear Jake; I have been working on a fictional novel telling the story of the First Maryland Campaign for reader possibly not as learned as we are in this
                              Message 14 of 21 , Feb 1, 2008
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                                Dear Jake;

                                I have been working on a fictional novel telling the story of the
                                First Maryland Campaign for reader possibly not as learned as we
                                are in this group, concentrating on the unit level with the
                                Fourth NC (The Bloody Fourth) and then the larger command level
                                with Longstreet and Army HQ.

                                Where I've run into a little dilemma is knowing where Anderson's
                                brigade was positioned _after_ it was on the Old Sharpsburg Road
                                to do a grand wheel back UP South Mountain to take the Federals
                                in the flank and later, when it was determined to abandon the
                                mountain, which route or routes Anderson's Brigade retreated
                                towards Sharpsburg.

                                Can you search your Carman MS and, under separate email, provide
                                whatever information he might have? (Or, post here, if not
                                terribly, terribly long and lengthy!)

                                Thank you!

                                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                                on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                                Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                                the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "joseph_pierro" <joseph_pierro@...>
                                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 7:09 PM
                                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: ANVa Supply Trains


                                Dean:

                                Most of the trains and reserve artillery (one battalion excepted)
                                were ordered by Lee to cross over to the Virginia side at
                                Williamsport even before he decided to make his stand at
                                Sharpsburg.


                                from Carman:

                                "When Robert E. Lee, after nightfall of September 14,
                                realized
                                that the action at Turner's Gap had gone against him, he
                                abandoned
                                (temporarily, at least) his idea of a further invasion of the
                                North
                                into Pennsylvania, or even of remaining in Maryland, and took
                                immediate measures to reunite with McLaws and recross the Potomac
                                into Virginia. Those who were with Lee say that he gave no sign
                                of
                                disappointment and depression that his campaign had ended in
                                failure,
                                but we can imagine it was with a swelling heart that, at 8:00
                                p.m.,
                                he sent this dispatch to McLaws:
                                "'The day has gone against us and this army will go by
                                Sharpsburg
                                and cross the river. It is necessary for you to abandon
                                your position to-night. Send your trains not required on the road
                                to
                                cross the river. Your troops you must have well in hand to unite
                                with
                                this command, which will retire by Sharpsburg. Send forward
                                officers
                                to explore the way, ascertain the best crossing of the Potomac,
                                and
                                if you can find any between you and Shepherdstown leave
                                Shepherdstown
                                Ford for this command. Send an officer to report to me on the
                                Sharpsburg road, where you are and what crossing you will take.
                                You
                                will of course bring Anderson's division with you.'
                                "At about the same hour, he sent a dispatch to Jackson to
                                march
                                up from Harper's Ferry and cover his passage of the Potomac at
                                Shepherdstown Ford. (These orders to McLaws and Jackson
                                contemplated
                                the abandonment of operations against Harper's Ferry, but these
                                had
                                so far progressed that the place was then, virtually, in the
                                grasp of
                                Jackson and McLaws.) Longstreet and D. H. Hill were directed to
                                push
                                such of their commands and trains as were at and near Hagerstown
                                across the Potomac at Williamsport. The three reserve artillery
                                battalions at Beaver Creek (four miles north of Boonsboro)
                                were ordered to move-two battalions by Williamsport into
                                Virginia,
                                one battalion to Keedysville."

                                It would appear that Lee then kept them on the Va shore
                                afterwards
                                for so long because the operational and tactical situation
                                remained
                                in such a state of flux for the next few days. (Would McClellan
                                attack on the 15th? The 16th? Would Jackson arrive on the 16th?
                                Would
                                McLaws arrive on the 17th?) With only a single ford at his back,
                                the
                                last thing Lee wanted if his lines broke was his trains and
                                reserve
                                artillery clogging the only route of escape.

                                Carman again:
                                "Late at night [of the 14th] the commander of the reserve
                                artillery, General Pendleton (who with three battalions had, late
                                in
                                the afternoon, taken position on the heights of Beaver Creek,
                                four
                                miles north of Boonsboro) was summoned to Lee's headquarters
                                and directed to send S. D. Lee's Battalion to Keedysville and to
                                move
                                with the battalions of Brown and Nelson by the shortest route to
                                Williamsport and across the Potomac to guard the fords of the
                                river.
                                Pendleton hastened back to his camp, moved promptly to the
                                Boonsboro
                                and Williamsport Road, and by sunrise reached Jones's
                                Cross-Roads,
                                where the Williamsport Road intersects the Hagerstown and
                                Sharpsburg
                                Turnpike. Here he was informed that a large force of Union
                                cavalry
                                was not far ahead of him, upon which he placed some guns in
                                position
                                commanding the road leading to Williamsport and the Hagerstown
                                Pike
                                on either flank, sent to Toombs (who had passed down to
                                Sharpsburg)
                                for a regiment or two of infantry, and set to work collecting a
                                band
                                of armed stragglers to support his guns. Meanwhile, he had sent
                                out
                                scouting parties. These soon returned with information that the
                                road
                                was clear for some two miles, upon which (without waiting for
                                infantry from Toombs) he resumed the road to destroy the
                                'retiring
                                invaders' with his artillery and protect the large wagon train
                                proceeding by the Hagerstown Road through Williamsport. Colonel
                                Davis's cavalry had passed on the road and attacked Longstreet's
                                train, and Pendleton-without meeting an enemy or further delay-
                                reached Williamsport and crossed the Potomac by Light's Ford into
                                Virginia.
                                "Colonel Brown, with his battalion of five batteries, was
                                ordered
                                to guard Light's Ford and a ford two miles below. Major Nelson's
                                battalion of five batteries went down the river road to
                                Shepherdstown, which he reached on the sixteenth, and took
                                position on the heights commanding Shepherdstown Ford a mile
                                below
                                town."

                                In typical Pendleton fashion, once the battle was joined and the
                                artillery needed, he failed to rise to the emergency. Carman yet
                                again:

                                "About mid-day [of the 17th] Lee had sent this message to
                                Pendleton, commanding the reserve artillery at Shepherdstown
                                Ford: 'If
                                you have fifteen or twenty guns, suitable for our purpose, which
                                you
                                can spare, the general desires you to send them, with a
                                sufficiency
                                of ammunition. You must not take them from the fords if essential
                                to
                                their safety. Send up the stragglers. Take any cavalry about
                                there
                                and send up at the point of the sword. We want ammunition, guns,
                                and
                                provisions.' Pendleton could not collect the stragglers, he sent
                                up
                                but little ammunition, and it was not until the engagement had
                                closed
                                that one battery arrived at Sharpsburg."

                                Hope some of that helps.

                                --jake
                                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "dean_essig"
                                <dean_essig@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Yes, I agree and have the infomation regarding the location of
                                > the
                                various artillery units.
                                >
                                > Not only was Lee still thinking about re-entering Md from the
                                > Va
                                side, but he hadn't ruled
                                > out an "attacking withdrawal" to the north, through the Union
                                > right
                                wing to Hagerstown.
                                >
                                > Trying to do that with the trains in tow would be impossible,
                                > but
                                allowing the trains to
                                > shadow the army on the Va side of the river makes a lot of
                                > sense.
                                >
                                > Given the situation, this kind of decision making is
                                > breathtakingly
                                fearless.
                                >
                                > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                > <clemenst@>
                                wrote:
                                > >
                                > > I will look and see what else I can find. I think Lee was
                                > > using
                                the river to protect his
                                > trains preparatory to re-entering Maryland at Williamsport.
                                > Even
                                after he retreated on the
                                > 18th/19th his intent was to re-cross the river there and move
                                towards Hagerstown.
                                > Giving the wagons a head start would open the roads for his
                                infantry to move quickly. As
                                > you know, he had artillery detached to guard Shepherdstown Ford
                                > and
                                Light's Ford, and
                                > Stuart did go to Williamsport on the 19th to lead the way.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                                > > Professor of History
                                > > Hagerstown Community College
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 2/1/2008 2:24 PM >>>
                                > > Tom it is... glad to meet you, sir!
                                > >
                                > > Excellent information, that helps me spot the trains on the
                                > > map.
                                > >
                                > > The artillery problem is an issue I'll need to resolve. I
                                > > don't
                                recall Reilly (who at least
                                > > mentioned going back to look) or anyone else suggesting they
                                > > had
                                to ford the Potomac
                                > to
                                > > get a re-supply of artillery ammunition. So, this indirectly
                                suggests that what stocks
                                > they
                                > > had available were in the Md side trains.
                                > >
                                > > Leaving me wondering what it was Lee was protecting across
                                > > the
                                river.
                                > >
                                > > Do you know of any other battery commanders recollections
                                > > about
                                the rather mundane
                                > > matters of ammunition resupply on that day?
                                > >
                                > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                > > <clemenst@>
                                wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Dean,
                                > > > I keep meaning to tell you, nobody calls me Thomas, Tom is
                                > > > just
                                fine. I think you have
                                > it
                                > > correctly stated. Location of the Artillery Reserve trains,
                                > > such
                                as they were with the loss
                                > of
                                > > many near Williamsport, is likely across the river, however I
                                think some of it was
                                > forwarded
                                > > on the 18th as Lee called for gathering stragglers and ammo
                                resupply. Going from
                                > > memory, but in Lee's comments about his HQ tent he describes
                                > > it
                                as 1 & 1/4 miles from
                                > > Cemetery Hill, (I think) making the two miles just about on
                                > > Mt.
                                Airy, the Grove family
                                > farm.
                                > > That would also be logical for there was access to water and
                                > > lots
                                of fields to park a
                                > wagon
                                > > train there.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                                > > > Professor of History
                                > > > Hagerstown Community College
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 2/1/2008 1:55 PM >>>
                                > > > Thomas,
                                > > >
                                > > > Reviewed the cited sections. All seems to be resolved but
                                > > > one
                                matter.
                                > > >
                                > > > What we know:
                                > > > 1) The non-Ammunition trains are in Shepherdstown. Getting
                                there at various dates.
                                > > > Hood's were escorted to his division so the Texans could
                                > > > get
                                some food.
                                > > >
                                > > > 2) Small arms ammuntion trains were ordered back into Md
                                > > > and
                                positioned "2 miles to
                                > > the
                                > > > rear" (that distance is mentioned in several places, but
                                > > > w/o a
                                reference as to rear of
                                > > what
                                > > > or who).
                                > > >
                                > > > The one thing (two parts) that we don't know is:
                                > > > 1a) Were the Army Reserve Ammunition trains still in
                                > > > Virgina?
                                Harsh believes so.
                                > > >
                                > > > 1b) Was there artillery ammunition in the trains that were
                                > > > sent
                                back into Md? This is
                                > > > interesting because it seems that Lee kept the Reserve
                                > > > Trains
                                across the river to avoid
                                > > > losing artillery ammunition.
                                > > >
                                > > > Am I off on any of the above and is there any answer to the
                                unknowns?
                                > > >
                                > > > Dean
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                <clemenst@> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Dean,
                                > > > > The info on the trains is mentioned in Chapter 8 of Taken
                                > > > > at
                                the Flood, pp. 338-9
                                > > > footnotes 34 & 37 and also in Sounding the Shallows, pp.
                                > > > 193-
                                4. Let me know if you
                                > > do
                                > > > not have access to those books.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                > > > > Professor of History
                                > > > > Hagerstown Community College
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@> 01/30/08 11:18 AM >>>
                                > > > > Excellent info, Thomas!
                                > > > >
                                > > > > That would bring all the loose ends together (no mean
                                > > > > feat),
                                if I can impose (and
                                > > when
                                > > > you
                                > > > > get a chance) please dig out some sources on the "but
                                > > > > ammo"
                                exception.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > You may not have earned a free game yet, but you will by
                                > > > > the
                                time this project is
                                > done
                                > > > :-)
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Doesn't matter if you don't have time to play it, you'll
                                > > > > want
                                a copy of a product that
                                > > has
                                > > > your
                                > > > > name in the research credits I would think. ;-)
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens"
                                <clemenst@> wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Dean,
                                > > > > > I am at work and away from sources, but it is my
                                understanding that all trains
                                > > except
                                > > > > ammo were sent across the river. Thus Hood, looking for
                                food, had to go find his
                                > and
                                > > > bring
                                > > > > them forward, while Reilly etc. looking for ammo found
                                > > > > theirs
                                near Sharpsburg.
                                > > > Longstreet'
                                > > > > loss was the Reserve Artillery ammo for his command, not
                                > > > > all
                                of his trains.
                                > > > > > Hope this helps. Do I get a free copy of the game?
                                > > > > > :-)
                                just kidding, I don't have
                                > > time
                                > > > to
                                > > > > play them.
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • Thomas Clemens
                                Dean, A quick check of CS artillery memoirs, etc does not definitely show any location of the ammunition reserve trains. sorry. Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                Message 15 of 21 , Feb 2, 2008
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                                  Dean,
                                  A quick check of CS artillery memoirs, etc does not definitely show any location of the ammunition reserve trains. sorry.

                                  Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                  Professor of History
                                  Hagerstown Community College


                                  >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 02/01/08 2:24 PM >>>
                                  Tom it is... glad to meet you, sir!

                                  Excellent information, that helps me spot the trains on the map.

                                  The artillery problem is an issue I'll need to resolve. I don't recall Reilly (who at least
                                  mentioned going back to look) or anyone else suggesting they had to ford the Potomac to
                                  get a re-supply of artillery ammunition. So, this indirectly suggests that what stocks they
                                  had available were in the Md side trains.

                                  Leaving me wondering what it was Lee was protecting across the river.

                                  Do you know of any other battery commanders recollections about the rather mundane
                                  matters of ammunition resupply on that day?
                                • Dean Essig
                                  Tom, Thanks for looking. It looks like the issue might be moot for me anyway, Mt Airy is off my map area (very similar to the Carmen-Cope maps) to the SW, so
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Feb 2, 2008
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                                    Tom,

                                    Thanks for looking. It looks like the issue might be
                                    moot for me anyway, Mt Airy is off my map area (very
                                    similar to the Carmen-Cope maps) to the SW, so guns
                                    looking to reload will have to shoot off the map there
                                    (with an explanation of when they come back). Since
                                    they are already going off the map, whether the trains
                                    are at Mt Airy, Shepherdstown, or Boetler's matters
                                    little... it will be a while in real time before they
                                    come back.

                                    Dean

                                    --- Thomas Clemens <clemenst@...> wrote:

                                    > Dean,
                                    > A quick check of CS artillery memoirs, etc does not
                                    > definitely show any location of the ammunition
                                    > reserve trains. sorry.
                                    >
                                    > Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
                                    > Professor of History
                                    > Hagerstown Community College
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > >>> "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...> 02/01/08
                                    > 2:24 PM >>>
                                    > Tom it is... glad to meet you, sir!
                                    >
                                    > Excellent information, that helps me spot the trains
                                    > on the map.
                                    >
                                    > The artillery problem is an issue I'll need to
                                    > resolve. I don't recall Reilly (who at least
                                    > mentioned going back to look) or anyone else
                                    > suggesting they had to ford the Potomac to
                                    > get a re-supply of artillery ammunition. So, this
                                    > indirectly suggests that what stocks they
                                    > had available were in the Md side trains.
                                    >
                                    > Leaving me wondering what it was Lee was protecting
                                    > across the river.
                                    >
                                    > Do you know of any other battery commanders
                                    > recollections about the rather mundane
                                    > matters of ammunition resupply on that day?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >



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