Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Muster dates

Expand Messages
  • dean_essig
    Bill, Thanks for bringing that up. I missed it in my list, but not because it wasn t marked as Green, but because of the note that was embedded with. The note
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 31, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      Bill,

      Thanks for bringing that up. I missed it in my list, but not because it wasn't marked as
      Green, but because of the note that was embedded with.

      The note says "Green, but properly drilled, doesn't count as green". For the life of me, I
      don't recall where that information came from, but I believe it has something to do with
      the officers in charge?

      Perhaps somebody can shed some light on that one.

      Dean

      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Bill and Glenna Jo Christen" <gwjchris@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > The Seventeenth Michigan Infantry (Christ's Brigade, Willcox's Division, Ninth Army
      Corps) was mustered in on 27 August 1862. The regiment came under fire for the first
      time at Fox's Gap.
      >
      > Bill Christen
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • G E Mayers
      Dean, IIRC, and Bill can confirm, but the 17th Michigan was green in the sense of never being in battle before. But they are drilled fairly well for a rookie
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 31, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Dean,

        IIRC, and Bill can confirm, but the 17th Michigan was green in
        the sense of never being in battle before. But they are drilled
        fairly well for a rookie unit going into combat, as opposed to
        many of the nine month units actually taking the field at
        Antietam. The 13th NJ for example had not had chance to learn how
        to load and fire until they actually did so under fire during the
        battle. Ezra Carman, who was their colonel and wounded during the
        action, is the same Ezra Carman who spent many years after the
        War as the unofficial official historian of the battle and wrote
        the famous manuscript Jake Pierro and Tom Clemens have,
        independently, been working on.

        Yr. Obt. Svt.
        G E "Gerry" Mayers

        To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
        on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
        Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
        the Almighty God. --Anonymous
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...>
        To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 9:16 PM
        Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster dates


        Bill,

        Thanks for bringing that up. I missed it in my list, but not
        because it wasn't marked as
        Green, but because of the note that was embedded with.

        The note says "Green, but properly drilled, doesn't count as
        green". For the life of me, I
        don't recall where that information came from, but I believe it
        has something to do with
        the officers in charge?

        Perhaps somebody can shed some light on that one.

        Dean

        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Bill and Glenna Jo
        Christen" <gwjchris@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > The Seventeenth Michigan Infantry (Christ's Brigade, Willcox's
        > Division, Ninth Army
        Corps) was mustered in on 27 August 1862. The regiment came under
        fire for the first
        time at Fox's Gap.
        >
        > Bill Christen
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • dean_essig
        Thanks Gerry! That jives with my notes, I m still curious how they managed to become respectfully drilled in so short of a period of time. Other regiments
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 31, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Thanks Gerry! That jives with my notes, I'm still curious how they managed to become
          respectfully drilled in so short of a period of time. Other regiments (with a few more days
          or a week or so) of extra time to prepare were woefully unprepared for battle (like the 13
          NJ).

          I must have run into a reference along the way that suggested they had a fine commander
          or other experienced officers and NCOs that were in a position to get them ready.

          I think I'll have to dig up their regimental history and see if I can figure out why.

          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dean,
          >
          > IIRC, and Bill can confirm, but the 17th Michigan was green in
          > the sense of never being in battle before. But they are drilled
          > fairly well for a rookie unit going into combat, as opposed to
          > many of the nine month units actually taking the field at
          > Antietam. The 13th NJ for example had not had chance to learn how
          > to load and fire until they actually did so under fire during the
          > battle. Ezra Carman, who was their colonel and wounded during the
          > action, is the same Ezra Carman who spent many years after the
          > War as the unofficial official historian of the battle and wrote
          > the famous manuscript Jake Pierro and Tom Clemens have,
          > independently, been working on.
          >
        • G E Mayers
          Dear Dean, Bill Christen, who is much more knowledgeable about the Seventeenth Michigan than myself, might be able to answer these new questions than I.
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 31, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Dean,

            Bill Christen, who is much more knowledgeable about the
            Seventeenth Michigan than myself, might be able to answer these
            new questions than I.

            However, IIRC (and this is totally off the top of my head), the
            17th Michigan actually had been mustered in longer but had not
            yet been accepted, again IIRC, into Federal service. That lag
            afforded the officers of the regiment to spend the needed time in
            properly drilling the unit before their being called into active
            service.

            Again, Bill Christen will be the proper person to answer this
            question about the unit being able to take the field in a great
            manner and go into combat on September 14th at Fox's Gap. BTW,
            there is a market to the unit not far from the site of the Wise
            Cabin on South Mountain near Fox's Gap.

            Yr. Obt. Svt.
            G E "Gerry" Mayers

            To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
            on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
            Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
            the Almighty God. --Anonymous
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...>
            To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 10:19 PM
            Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster dates


            Thanks Gerry! That jives with my notes, I'm still curious how
            they managed to become
            respectfully drilled in so short of a period of time. Other
            regiments (with a few more days
            or a week or so) of extra time to prepare were woefully
            unprepared for battle (like the 13
            NJ).

            I must have run into a reference along the way that suggested
            they had a fine commander
            or other experienced officers and NCOs that were in a position to
            get them ready.

            I think I'll have to dig up their regimental history and see if I
            can figure out why.

            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Dean,
            >
            > IIRC, and Bill can confirm, but the 17th Michigan was green in
            > the sense of never being in battle before. But they are drilled
            > fairly well for a rookie unit going into combat, as opposed to
            > many of the nine month units actually taking the field at
            > Antietam. The 13th NJ for example had not had chance to learn
            > how
            > to load and fire until they actually did so under fire during
            > the
            > battle. Ezra Carman, who was their colonel and wounded during
            > the
            > action, is the same Ezra Carman who spent many years after the
            > War as the unofficial official historian of the battle and
            > wrote
            > the famous manuscript Jake Pierro and Tom Clemens have,
            > independently, been working on.
            >
          • dean_essig
            17th Michigan... found it! Gallgher _The Antietam Campaign_ pg 156 The 17th commenced forming in late May 1862 and spent the summer drilling under Col. James
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 31, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              17th Michigan... found it!

              Gallgher _The Antietam Campaign_ pg 156

              "The 17th commenced forming in late May 1862 and spent the summer drilling under Col.
              James E. Pittman, the state paymaster. Although not mustered into Federal service until
              August 21, the Michiganders should not be considered true rookies. Pittman's drill and
              discipline left the regiment in a "very credible condition." well prepared for the action on
              September 14 that highlighted the difference training made in combat effectiveness."

              The chapter "Volunteers of '62" was where I got a number of the regiments included in my
              list of "green" regiments. I'll go through it again and see if any of the mistaken ones are
              mentioned.
            • G E Mayers
              Dear Dean, I have that volume also. You might wish to check out the excellent essay on the Sunken Road fighting as many of the green units in the Second Corps
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 31, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Dean,

                I have that volume also. You might wish to check out the
                excellent essay on the Sunken Road fighting as many of the green
                units in the Second Corps wound up involved in that nasty piece
                of work....

                Yr. Obt. Svt.
                G E "Gerry" Mayers

                To Be A Virginian, either by birth, marriage, adoption, or even
                on one's mother's side, is an introduction to any state in the
                Union, a passport to any foreign country, and a benediction from
                the Almighty God. --Anonymous
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "dean_essig" <dean_essig@...>
                To: <TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 10:38 PM
                Subject: [TalkAntietam] Re: Muster dates


                17th Michigan... found it!

                Gallgher _The Antietam Campaign_ pg 156

                "The 17th commenced forming in late May 1862 and spent the summer
                drilling under Col.
                James E. Pittman, the state paymaster. Although not mustered into
                Federal service until
                August 21, the Michiganders should not be considered true
                rookies. Pittman's drill and
                discipline left the regiment in a "very credible condition." well
                prepared for the action on
                September 14 that highlighted the difference training made in
                combat effectiveness."

                The chapter "Volunteers of '62" was where I got a number of the
                regiments included in my
                list of "green" regiments. I'll go through it again and see if
                any of the mistaken ones are
                mentioned.
              • dean_essig
                Yes, and the section on logistics was very helpful as well!
                Message 7 of 10 , Feb 1, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Yes, and the section on logistics was very helpful as well!

                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "G E Mayers" <gerry1952@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Dean,
                  >
                  > I have that volume also. You might wish to check out the
                  > excellent essay on the Sunken Road fighting as many of the green
                  > units in the Second Corps wound up involved in that nasty piece
                  > of work....
                • Bill and Glenna Jo Christen
                  Posted by: dean_essig dean_essig@yahoo.com dean_essig Gallagher cites Ida V. Brown Michigan in the Civil War as the source for the drilling information. I
                  Message 8 of 10 , Feb 2, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Posted by: "dean_essig" dean_essig@... dean_essig

                    Gallagher cites Ida V. Brown Michigan in the Civil War as the source for the drilling
                    information.

                    I take it you are arguing that they should fall into my "green" category (along with the
                    other limited service time regiments)? I rather wish they had more service at Antietam to
                    add to their good performance at South Mountain to make the evaluation clearer.
                    Dean,

                    Brown's Michigan Men in the Civil War was first published in 1959 as a bulletin of the University of Michigan's Historical Collections. Miss Brown was the archivist. It was updated again in 1977. It is a descriptive index to over 500 collections of letters, diaries or other material related to Michigan during the Civil War, which can be found at UM's Bentley Library in Ann Arbor. There are over thirty collections that pertain to the Seventeenth Michigan. I have read them all and would have to dig through my files to find out the exact quote, but I do not recall one off hand. I am, as it happens, preparing a talk for later this summer on the first six months in the life of the regiment and the fighting at South Mountain.

                    There is a passage in Michigan in the War compiled by Michigan Adjutant General. John Robertson in 1882:
                    "The organization of the regiment commenced under the direction of Colonel James E. Pitman, then State Paymaster, whose excellent drill and discipline enabled the regiment to leave for the front in a very creditable condition" [1]

                    [1] John Robertson, comp., Michigan in the War (Lansing: State of Michigan, 1882), 374.
                    By the end of July 1862, only 500 recruits for the regiment had arrived at the Detroit Barracks. Colonel Withington did not take command until 11 August. Uniforms and equipment were not issued until four days before the regiment left Detroit on 27 August 1862. There is no record that any target practice occurred before the regiment left for Washington, D.C. or during the week the regiment was at Fort Baker before being ordered to join the Ninth Army Corps. They were cutting wood.

                    I would agree that the regiment was schooled in military drill, but it had little experience with their weapons (mostly Lorenz rifle-muskets).

                    The score card:
                    South Mountain: 27 killed, 114 wounded (Company A was detached and remained in Frederick--returned to the regiment by 16 September). The regiment was steady under fire, made a charge in the afternoon, helping to rout Drayton South Carolina Brigade.
                    Antietam: 18 killed, 87 wounded . The regiment was steady under fire at the Sherrick farm and then participated in a charge towards Sharpsburg near the Rohrbach Mill (below and south of the National Cemetery today) late in the afternoon. There is an unconfirmed story that a Confederate regiment was waving what appeared to be the US National Colors and the Seventeenth's movements was not a charge but a plain advance.

                    I estimate the strength of the unit was around 750 on 14 September (Company A detached, sick left behind and a few stragglers and deserters). The leadership (field & staff and company officers) was a factor in overcoming the lack of experience. Ironically, at Spotsylvania (May 1864), this same battle-tested regiment (of no more than 250 men at the time), would suffer a severe loss and have its colors captured along with nearly half of it soldiers. Here too, the leadership would play a roll (Withington had resigned in March 1863 and the colonel in May 1864, Constance Luce did not have the same leadership rating or approval of the men. The lieutenant colonel, Frederick Swift (a captain at South Mountain and Antietam), under Luce was later awarded the Medal of Honor for his actions at Campbell's Station, Tennessee. But of course this was beyond the timeframe of your game.

                    Bill

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • dean_essig
                    Bill, That settles it with some authority, especially the material about the lack of training their arms before the battle. Good unit, not yet trained. FWIW,
                    Message 9 of 10 , Feb 2, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Bill,

                      That settles it with some authority, especially the material about the lack of training their
                      arms before the battle. Good unit, not yet trained.

                      FWIW, the park's files give the regiment 525 men at Antietam, the marker at South
                      Mountain says they had 500 there (before the losses).

                      Dean

                      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Bill and Glenna Jo Christen" <gwjchris@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Posted by: "dean_essig" dean_essig@... dean_essig
                      >
                      > Gallagher cites Ida V. Brown Michigan in the Civil War as the source for the drilling
                      > information.
                      >
                      > I take it you are arguing that they should fall into my "green" category (along with the
                      > other limited service time regiments)? I rather wish they had more service at Antietam to
                      > add to their good performance at South Mountain to make the evaluation clearer.
                      > Dean,
                      >
                      > Brown's Michigan Men in the Civil War was first published in 1959 as a bulletin of the
                      University of Michigan's Historical Collections. Miss Brown was the archivist. It was
                      updated again in 1977. It is a descriptive index to over 500 collections of letters, diaries
                      or other material related to Michigan during the Civil War, which can be found at UM's
                      Bentley Library in Ann Arbor. There are over thirty collections that pertain to the
                      Seventeenth Michigan. I have read them all and would have to dig through my files to find
                      out the exact quote, but I do not recall one off hand. I am, as it happens, preparing a talk
                      for later this summer on the first six months in the life of the regiment and the fighting at
                      South Mountain.
                      >
                      > There is a passage in Michigan in the War compiled by Michigan Adjutant General. John
                      Robertson in 1882:
                      > "The organization of the regiment commenced under the direction of Colonel James E.
                      Pitman, then State Paymaster, whose excellent drill and discipline enabled the regiment to
                      leave for the front in a very creditable condition" [1]
                      >
                      > [1] John Robertson, comp., Michigan in the War (Lansing: State of Michigan, 1882), 374.
                      > By the end of July 1862, only 500 recruits for the regiment had arrived at the Detroit
                      Barracks. Colonel Withington did not take command until 11 August. Uniforms and
                      equipment were not issued until four days before the regiment left Detroit on 27 August
                      1862. There is no record that any target practice occurred before the regiment left for
                      Washington, D.C. or during the week the regiment was at Fort Baker before being ordered
                      to join the Ninth Army Corps. They were cutting wood.
                      >
                      > I would agree that the regiment was schooled in military drill, but it had little
                      experience with their weapons (mostly Lorenz rifle-muskets).
                      >
                      > The score card:
                      > South Mountain: 27 killed, 114 wounded (Company A was detached and remained in
                      Frederick--returned to the regiment by 16 September). The regiment was steady under
                      fire, made a charge in the afternoon, helping to rout Drayton South Carolina Brigade.
                      > Antietam: 18 killed, 87 wounded . The regiment was steady under fire at the Sherrick
                      farm and then participated in a charge towards Sharpsburg near the Rohrbach Mill (below
                      and south of the National Cemetery today) late in the afternoon. There is an unconfirmed
                      story that a Confederate regiment was waving what appeared to be the US National Colors
                      and the Seventeenth's movements was not a charge but a plain advance.
                      >
                      > I estimate the strength of the unit was around 750 on 14 September (Company A
                      detached, sick left behind and a few stragglers and deserters). The leadership (field & staff
                      and company officers) was a factor in overcoming the lack of experience. Ironically, at
                      Spotsylvania (May 1864), this same battle-tested regiment (of no more than 250 men at
                      the time), would suffer a severe loss and have its colors captured along with nearly half of
                      it soldiers. Here too, the leadership would play a roll (Withington had resigned in March
                      1863 and the colonel in May 1864, Constance Luce did not have the same leadership
                      rating or approval of the men. The lieutenant colonel, Frederick Swift (a captain at South
                      Mountain and Antietam), under Luce was later awarded the Medal of Honor for his actions
                      at Campbell's Station, Tennessee. But of course this was beyond the timeframe of your
                      game.
                      >
                      > Bill
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.