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Re: Col. Benjamin Davis near Sharpsburg on 9/14

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  • eighth_conn_inf
    Excellent--I hope I get to read it within a month or two to help me with that chapter in my paper. BTW, Tischler has photos of both Palmer and Wilson.
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 31, 2008
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      Excellent--I hope I get to read it within a month or two to help me
      with that chapter in my paper. BTW, Tischler has photos of both Palmer
      and Wilson.



      --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Downey" <bdowney@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Larry,
      >
      > Yes and he's working on it. No big rush on my part - I'll be glad to
      > get it when ready.
      >
      > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf"
      > <eighth_conn_inf@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Brian,
      > >
      > > Don said he was going to do an article for AotW about the breakout--
      > > have you heard from him lately?
      > >
      > > Larry F.
      >
    • Thomas Clemens
      Larry, I don t claim expertise in this topic, but I think even at the time there was some friction, and certainly afterward when the assumption was the B.
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 31, 2008
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        Larry,
        I don't claim expertise in this topic, but I think even at the time there was some friction, and certainly afterward when the assumption was the B. Davis was in charge.


        Thomas G. Clemens D.A.
        Professor of History
        Hagerstown Community College


        >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 01/31/08 4:59 PM >>>
        Tom,

        You are certainly correct: Lt. Col. Hasbrouck Davis was the commander
        of the 12th Ill. Cavalry during the breakout. Col. Benjamin F.
        (Grimes) Davis was in command of the 8th NY Cavalry and Col. Arno
        Voss of the 12th Ill. was in overall command as senior colonel
        although he apparently rode with the 12th for a while. Looks like he
        and Grimes cooperated reluctantly?

        Larry F.

        --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Wasn't the 12th IL commanded by Hasbrouck Davis? Benjamin Davis
        commanded the 8th NY.
        >
        > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
        > Professor of History
        > Hagerstown Community College
        >
        >
        >
        > >>> "cowie_steve" <cowie_steve@...> 1/30/2008 4:34 PM >>>
        > Hello, Forum.
        >
        > Murfin's GOB, page 153, describes Benjamin Davis's vanguard of
        escapees, the 12th Illinois,
        > as coming into contact with Confederate pickets near the edge of
        the Sharpsburg village
        > around 10:00 p.m. on the evening of 9/14. Murfin's source is
        William Luff of the 12th Illinois,
        > who claims to have been fired upon by CS artillery at this same
        time, as well.
        >
        > After giving Dr. Harsh's TAF a thorough read, I can find little
        evidence to support CS infantry,
        > cavalry or artillery from the day's mountain gap battles being near
        the edge of Sharpsburg at
        > 10:00 p.m. on 9/14.
        >
        > Could someone please shed some light on this matter?
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Steve
        >
      • cowie_steve
        Brian, Thank you for referring me to Don Caughey s blog on the breakout. It s very well done, indeed, and the map is especially helpful. Steve
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 1, 2008
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          Brian,

          Thank you for referring me to Don Caughey's blog on the breakout. It's very well done,
          indeed, and the map is especially helpful.

          Steve

          --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Downey" <bdowney@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Steve,
          >
          > I think Larry noted earlier that Don Caughey has posted exahastively
          > on the Breakout, participants and route - on his blog -- if you
          > haven't already seen that. I've linked to all 5 parts of his series,
          > added some photos from Tischler, and drafted a rough map of the route
          > on my own (http://behind.aotw.org/2007/09/23/exodus-from-harpers-ferry/).
          >
          > I've tried to mark (general) locations of both Federal and Confederate
          > troops on that map, as describned in Harsh's book, but not which units
          > they were. Another link from the blog will get you to a modern Google
          > map if you want to retrace the route by car.
          >
          > I'll try to dig into Chew's Battery's whereabouts a little later. All
          > I know just now is they were at Shepherdstown as late as 3pm on 17
          > September - something about repairing/refitting guns there. They may
          > have missed the whole thing ...
          >
        • eighth_conn_inf
          Steve, According to Carman there were pickets from Hampton s Brigade, Martin s regiment, the Jeff Davis Legion. Check out Carman (Pierro) pp. 124-5. Here is a
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 2, 2008
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            Steve,

            According to Carman there were pickets from Hampton's Brigade,
            Martin's regiment, the Jeff Davis Legion. Check out Carman (Pierro)
            pp. 124-5. Here is a brief summary:

            The Union column missed a more dangerous encounter with Rebel cavalry
            that morning. When Hampton's Brigade rode from Burkittsville near
            Crampton's Gap on the morning of 14 September, some of it went along
            the east foot of South Mountain to picket roads leading from
            Frederick and Berlin, while two regiments crossed into Pleasant
            Valley to the western side of South Mountain. One of these was the
            Jeff Davis Legion with six guns of Hart's Battery which took up a
            position at Solomon's Gap in Elk Ridge to the north of Harpers Ferry.
            Some of its pickets were those encountered by the Union column at the
            mouth of Antietam Creek near the Potomac about 10 pm that night. Col.
            Martin commanding the regiment decided to retreat to Hagerstown
            believing the McClellan's troops were between Harpers Ferry and
            points north and west. As he retreated, his scouts reported the Union
            column on a roughly parallel track but closer to the Potomac.
            Learning of the identity of the column he began pursuit seeing the
            smoke from the burning wagons in the Unionist's wake. Finding that he
            could not catch them, he turned and crossed into Williamsport. This
            was fortunate for Martin as his 300 troopers would not have been much
            of a match for the Union column.

            Larry

            --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "cowie_steve" <cowie_steve@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Hello, Forum.
            >
            > Murfin's GOB, page 153, describes Benjamin Davis's vanguard of
            escapees, the 12th Illinois,
            > as coming into contact with Confederate pickets near the edge of
            the Sharpsburg village
            > around 10:00 p.m. on the evening of 9/14. Murfin's source is
            William Luff of the 12th Illinois,
            > who claims to have been fired upon by CS artillery at this same
            time, as well.
            >
            > After giving Dr. Harsh's TAF a thorough read, I can find little
            evidence to support CS infantry,
            > cavalry or artillery from the day's mountain gap battles being near
            the edge of Sharpsburg at
            > 10:00 p.m. on 9/14.
            >
            > Could someone please shed some light on this matter?
            >
            > Thanks,
            >
            > Steve
            >
          • cowie_steve
            Larry, Thanks so much for clarifying. To refresh, Murfin s GOB, page 153, placed the 10:00 p.m. contact between the escaping Federal cavalry column and
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 2, 2008
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              Larry,

              Thanks so much for clarifying.

              To refresh, Murfin's GOB, page 153, placed the 10:00 p.m. contact between the escaping
              Federal cavalry column and Confederate pickets "near the edge of Sharpsburg." Carmen's
              placement "at the mouth of Antietam Creek near the Potomac" makes much more sense to
              me.

              Best,

              Steve



              --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> wrote:
              >
              > Steve,
              >
              > According to Carman there were pickets from Hampton's Brigade,
              > Martin's regiment, the Jeff Davis Legion. Check out Carman (Pierro)
              > pp. 124-5. Here is a brief summary:
              >
              > The Union column missed a more dangerous encounter with Rebel cavalry
              > that morning. When Hampton's Brigade rode from Burkittsville near
              > Crampton's Gap on the morning of 14 September, some of it went along
              > the east foot of South Mountain to picket roads leading from
              > Frederick and Berlin, while two regiments crossed into Pleasant
              > Valley to the western side of South Mountain. One of these was the
              > Jeff Davis Legion with six guns of Hart's Battery which took up a
              > position at Solomon's Gap in Elk Ridge to the north of Harpers Ferry.
              > Some of its pickets were those encountered by the Union column at the
              > mouth of Antietam Creek near the Potomac about 10 pm that night. Col.
              > Martin commanding the regiment decided to retreat to Hagerstown
              > believing the McClellan's troops were between Harpers Ferry and
              > points north and west. As he retreated, his scouts reported the Union
              > column on a roughly parallel track but closer to the Potomac.
              > Learning of the identity of the column he began pursuit seeing the
              > smoke from the burning wagons in the Unionist's wake. Finding that he
              > could not catch them, he turned and crossed into Williamsport. This
              > was fortunate for Martin as his 300 troopers would not have been much
              > of a match for the Union column.
              >
              > Larry
              >
              > --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "cowie_steve" <cowie_steve@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > Hello, Forum.
              > >
              > > Murfin's GOB, page 153, describes Benjamin Davis's vanguard of
              > escapees, the 12th Illinois,
              > > as coming into contact with Confederate pickets near the edge of
              > the Sharpsburg village
              > > around 10:00 p.m. on the evening of 9/14. Murfin's source is
              > William Luff of the 12th Illinois,
              > > who claims to have been fired upon by CS artillery at this same
              > time, as well.
              > >
              > > After giving Dr. Harsh's TAF a thorough read, I can find little
              > evidence to support CS infantry,
              > > cavalry or artillery from the day's mountain gap battles being near
              > the edge of Sharpsburg at
              > > 10:00 p.m. on 9/14.
              > >
              > > Could someone please shed some light on this matter?
              > >
              > > Thanks,
              > >
              > > Steve
              > >
              >
            • Thomas Clemens
              I am familiar with Carman s account and the letters, reports, etc. he used to write that passage. Murfin used Carman as his source on this. I am also
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 2, 2008
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                I am familiar with Carman's account and the letters, reports, etc. he used to write that passage. Murfin used Carman as his source on this. I am also familiar with how far it is from Solomon's Gap to What is essentially today Sample's Manor and that is a hell of a distance to picket with 300 men. Given the reductions for picket reserves, those supporting Hart's guns and the signal detachment on Elk Ridge, it doesn't leave a lot of guys to stretch that distance. Dennis Frye, who knows the MD Campaign quite well and grew up in Pleasant Valley, finds this passage hard to accept. Yet Carman's sources say it happened, and he takes that as gospel. This passage really illustrates the difficulty and ambiguity of dealing with Carman.


                Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                Professor of History
                Hagerstown Community College




                >>> "eighth_conn_inf" <eighth_conn_inf@...> 4/2/2008 2:39 PM >>>

                Steve,

                According to Carman there were pickets from Hampton's Brigade,
                Martin's regiment, the Jeff Davis Legion. Check out Carman (Pierro)
                pp. 124-5. Here is a brief summary:

                The Union column missed a more dangerous encounter with Rebel cavalry
                that morning. When Hampton's Brigade rode from Burkittsville near
                Crampton's Gap on the morning of 14 September, some of it went along
                the east foot of South Mountain to picket roads leading from
                Frederick and Berlin, while two regiments crossed into Pleasant
                Valley to the western side of South Mountain. One of these was the
                Jeff Davis Legion with six guns of Hart's Battery which took up a
                position at Solomon's Gap in Elk Ridge to the north of Harpers Ferry.
                Some of its pickets were those encountered by the Union column at the
                mouth of Antietam Creek near the Potomac about 10 pm that night. Col.
                Martin commanding the regiment decided to retreat to Hagerstown
                believing the McClellan's troops were between Harpers Ferry and
                points north and west. As he retreated, his scouts reported the Union
                column on a roughly parallel track but closer to the Potomac.
                Learning of the identity of the column he began pursuit seeing the
                smoke from the burning wagons in the Unionist's wake. Finding that he
                could not catch them, he turned and crossed into Williamsport. This
                was fortunate for Martin as his 300 troopers would not have been much
                of a match for the Union column.

                Larry

                --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "cowie_steve" <cowie_steve@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Hello, Forum.
                >
                > Murfin's GOB, page 153, describes Benjamin Davis's vanguard of
                escapees, the 12th Illinois,
                > as coming into contact with Confederate pickets near the edge of
                the Sharpsburg village
                > around 10:00 p.m. on the evening of 9/14. Murfin's source is
                William Luff of the 12th Illinois,
                > who claims to have been fired upon by CS artillery at this same
                time, as well.
                >
                > After giving Dr. Harsh's TAF a thorough read, I can find little
                evidence to support CS infantry,
                > cavalry or artillery from the day's mountain gap battles being near
                the edge of Sharpsburg at
                > 10:00 p.m. on 9/14.
                >
                > Could someone please shed some light on this matter?
                >
                > Thanks,
                >
                > Steve
                >




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • joseph_pierro
                Tom is correct regarding the distances involved in Carman s version of the event. It does give one pause. On the other hand, I ve yet to find any contemporary
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 4, 2008
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                  Tom is correct regarding the distances involved in Carman's version
                  of the event. It does give one pause. On the other hand, I've yet to
                  find any contemporary evidence to contradict the claim.

                  Also, the purpose of picketing, after all, is simply to give notice
                  of an enemy's approach, not to attempt any appreciable resistance.
                  And we're talking about picketing during the operational stage of a
                  campaign (as opposed to the tactical phase, when the bulk of both
                  armies are in close proximity, in their main battle lines). Given the
                  distances over which the ANV was scattered at the time, the vast
                  expanse of mileage over which potential threats could come, and the
                  number of different avenues of approach from which the ANV had to
                  guard against being attacked in detail, a distance as great as Carman
                  records for those pickets is not entirely out of the realm of either
                  possibility or military soundness.

                  On the larger issue, one good thing to keep in mind whenever dealing
                  with the Carman mss. is that the focus of his research overall was in
                  furtherance of his official task: to mark the battlefield of Sept.
                  17. That's where the bulk of his energies were directed -- on
                  Antietam. Much of his focus on other aspects of the campaign -- South
                  Mountain, for instance -- was undertaken primarily with regard to
                  what the unit strengths would have been by the time they reached the
                  field at Antietam. 9/17 was always uppermost.

                  Of course, his manuscript covers the entire campaign, however. I
                  don;t mean to suggest that it isn't of tremendous value OUTSIDE of
                  9/17, but the area of Carman's greatest expertise was on the battle
                  of Antietam. (Or, to put it more generously, he was on even FIRMER
                  ground when discussing Antietam than he was on other aspects of the
                  campaign.)

                  I noticed in my work that, as he moves away from the battle itself,
                  he tends to defer a bit more to his sources and is less willing to
                  second-guess them.

                  --jake

                  --- In TalkAntietam@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Clemens" <clemenst@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > I am familiar with Carman's account and the letters, reports, etc.
                  he used to write that passage. Murfin used Carman as his source on
                  this. I am also familiar with how far it is from Solomon's Gap to
                  What is essentially today Sample's Manor and that is a hell of a
                  distance to picket with 300 men. Given the reductions for picket
                  reserves, those supporting Hart's guns and the signal detachment on
                  Elk Ridge, it doesn't leave a lot of guys to stretch that distance.
                  Dennis Frye, who knows the MD Campaign quite well and grew up in
                  Pleasant Valley, finds this passage hard to accept. Yet Carman's
                  sources say it happened, and he takes that as gospel. This passage
                  really illustrates the difficulty and ambiguity of dealing with
                  Carman.
                  >
                  >
                  > Dr. Thomas G. Clemens
                  > Professor of History
                  > Hagerstown Community College
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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